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#12232 - 07/10/02 08:55 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
iBoyz yezkweyeni Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 147
The shamelessness of African leaders knows no bounds! Hayi mani, these people bayamthatha u number one ngempela.<p>Babuthene eDurban babizana ukuzojabulela i "African Union". Moi, Gadaffi, Nujoma,Dos Santos etc, benzani lapho?<p>Msila, NEPAD lacks integrity, ngoba why?? Fika la - http://www.inkundla.net/indonsakusa/

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#12233 - 07/10/02 09:43 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
If NEPAD is to go ahead, and the chances are that there will be efforts to go ahead with it, then it looks like it is a choice between DICTATORS and PUPPETS.<p>Museveni is an alleged such puppet and has sold mast of his country's assets to the western countries and re-admitted the Indians to rebuild the country. There is said to be some economic recovery in Uganda and he is largely accepted in the west in spite of his style of democracy.<p>Bhekuzulu, given your clear-cut views on indegenisation, do you have any misgivings about Mugabe's land reform and if so what are they?

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#12234 - 07/10/02 10:44 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bheki, what is your understanding of good governance and democracy?<p>To me it is where the government creates(through its Power and Authority which flows from those that are governed) and facilitates the empowerment largely of its own citizen through making it possible for them to exercise their freedoms such as the following:<p>* be major players in the creation of employment: to exercise economic freedom with the support of the governing(I think indeginisation concept falls into place here). Represent its business players on trade and make sure they trade as equals to the outsiders rather than to trade as PUPPETS of this existent UNEQUAL ORDER!<p>* To exercise social freedoms without any unwarranted restraint...people to be allowed to live their culture rather than be denied to live their culture....the refusal of ZPF to give the licence to Radio Mthwakazi is a case in point<p>IN a nutshell those that govern should use the Power and Authority that flows from the governed in the best interests of the governed!<p>Anything short of this is bad governance!<p>Yes the reality is that Africa has a big club of dictactors and this is the reason why NEPAD is going to fail.<br>Gaddafi has never had electons in his country and never will he dance to such music. NEPAD is encouraging democracy to be exercised which is not what Gaddafi, Mugabe and Moi wants to name a few!<p>Mugabe and Moi organise fake elections which they know they will win through foul means to appear good dictactors!<p>So what is wrong is not the ideals of NEPAD but the majority of dictactors that find themselves in what Thabo is trying his best to do. Thabo will find it hard going!<p>There is no choice between being a puppet of the west and being a dictactor! In actual fact most of the African dictactors are puppets of the west;<p>Banda and Mobutu were puppets of the west. Mugabe all along has been a dictactor and a puppet of the west..this is the reason why he never bothered tackling the land issue. Moi is a dictactor and a puppet of the west and so is Museveni and Mubarak!<p>The idea that these guys can choose to be either dictactors or puppets of the west falls out. Most of them are dictactors and at the same time puppets of the west! They have time and again sold out the aspirations of the people of the continent to their masters!<p>Thabo Mbeki wants to change all this. Africa should not be sold out by these megalomaniacs, who do nothing for their own peoplem but only sells them as slaves to their masters.<p>Thabo should not be tarred with the same brush of dictactors for only trying his best for Africa. It is a toll order for him!<p>Thabo wants Africa to be treated as an equal, but that can only takes place when there is political reform in Africa. Good governance and democracy comes in!<p>The people we should be criticising for letting Africa down are the likes of Moi, Mugabe, Gaddafi, Chiluba, Banda, Mwalimu and you name more!<p>Thabo and Ketumire and Mandela seem to be in the league of their own!<p>As African critics we have allowed ourselves to be pessimist creatures of habit as well as captives of the past. This should change. It is important that we as African reform as individuals in our thinking and analysis!

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#12235 - 07/10/02 11:20 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
I am aware that it is possible for a leader to be both puppet and dictator which is what most have been in the past, with the most illustrative example you have already given being Mobutu.<p>But this was pre-NEPAD, pre-AU. This was before the so-called "good governance" condition stipulated by NEPAD. This was before Mugabe fell out with the British. You certainly cannot call Mugabe a PUPPET now, neither can you say that about Gaddafi. I feel since Gaddafi has such economical clout in Africa and is a major proponent of the AU, he is bound to influence the others as he has done with Mugabe. The line of thinking is changing with African leaders, that's why they excluded a western approved leader from the AU summit, so as to antagonise the west, in the open at least!<p>They have more to gain from being NON PUPPET DICTATORS than being PUPPET DICTATORS, or both (so to speak)! <br>

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#12236 - 07/10/02 12:37 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Mugabe and Gaddadfi are certainly no longer puppet dictactors of the west and this point is taken, but what about the rest of African dictactors the likes of: Museveni, Moi etc<p>It is true that the other African dictactors are slowly turnng against being puppets of the west to be puppets of the rich dictactorial Gaddafi.<p>The Lybians through Gaddafi are colonising Africa and they are wrecking the good ideals of Thabo's NEPAD!<p>NEPAD is in the slippery slope of failure not because it is a bad idea but because Gaddafi with his puppets are bent on wrecking it

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#12237 - 07/10/02 01:22 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
It looks like a can of worms has been opened and as such "PUPPET" and "DICTATOR" appear to be inextricably intertwined!<p>Mugabe the DICTATOR also happens to be a PUPPET of the DICTATOR Gaddafi. It's a vicious circle!<p>No wonder why people cannot figure out Mbeki, perhaps it's because he neither puppet nor dictator!

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#12238 - 07/10/02 02:05 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
I can say with confidence that Thabo is not a dictactor and that he is not a puppet of Gaddafi.<p>Mugabe is!<p>The ideals enshrined in NEPAD as we have stated them earlier are:<p>* good governance<p>* Democracy<p>* The upholding of the human rights<p>* Africa to be treated as an equal in World Trading<p><br>If those that say NEPAD is bad for making such ideals be a cornerstone for development in Africa, then what does Africa need if not the above?<p>Should NEPAD suffer its good ideals becoz of the bad apples(the club of dictactors) that it finds itself dealing with?<p>It is not just to lambast the good ideals of NEPAD just becoz it finds itself at the centre of a club of dictactors headed by Gaddafi!<p>In the same light it is not just and neither is it fair to lambast Mbeki for only trying to do good within a difficult political field that is awash with dictactors!<p>He is being tarred with the same brush of dictactors, but he appears a skilled politician who seems to strike a good balance of it all!

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#12239 - 07/10/02 02:17 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Bhekuzulu Khumalo Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Msilawobe, were are the provisions in NEPAD that state that citizens can participate in an economy, there are none. NEPAD says nothing about nitty gritty stuff. Go to South Africa now and say you want to start a phone company. The will tell you no. It is nonsense, nothing but nonsense. Get out of Africa whist you can. Finally when sense comes into the heads of these fools you can come back. It is nonsense, it has no sense.

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#12240 - 07/10/02 02:20 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
On the contrary, I think most critics have opposed the amount of stakes the west (G8 countries) seem to hold in all this. Nepad in being seen as a potential gateway for recolonisation of the Continent.<p>Bhekuzulu's criticism is well documented above and Ncube's analysis from the Talking Point gives a broad view......

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#12241 - 07/10/02 02:28 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bheki it will be unreal for us to expect to reap the rewards of NEPAD when it is being set up at this juncture!<p>And it remains to be seen whether the club of dictactors will embrace it in its true spirit and adhere to it wholeheartedly!<p>This brings me to my doubts about these dictactors allowing this good programme to take place. They want to wreck it!<p>The examples that you are giving are a proof that there is something wrong there that needs to be addressed. NEPAD seems to be an advocate of that, no wonder its global driving philosophy which is guiding Mbeki is African Reinnacence(sp)

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