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#12262 - 07/12/02 09:51 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
iBoyz yezkweyeni Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 147
We! "Msila", given your fervent support of NEPAD, it would be nice if you put out a conscise,coherent paper to argue your case. At the moment you are only saying yinhle iNEPAD without saying how or why. <p>Ngithemba uzathinta usibalukhulu usabhumithe lelo phepha.<p>

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#12263 - 07/12/02 03:55 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
matabele Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 43
I am new to this bulletin board, and I have a short contribution to make. I dont believe Nepad or any new economic portion will help africa so long as the current nation status quos exist.<br>1. I do agree that the current african states are not in their natural order, but are creations and products of colonial convenience. This is the reason for the genocides in Rwanda, the Biaffrians, etc. Peoples who had historically been separated by a river were now one nation. Remember, it is much easier to control any outbursts of nationalism and resistance if you can have the natives concentrate on killing each other. My suggestion is for africans for the first time to look deep into themselves and see if the current structure works, and the obvious answer is that it does not. So why not go back to the old natural entities, provinces that used to separate groups, and then have those gruops unite and form larger entities based on equity and mutual respect and mutual needs.<p>You see Gents, by creating these extremely large african nations, the europeans were doing it as cost saving measures. Imagine a country like belgium which is about the size of Harare, bulawayo and Mutare combined controlled Zaire, the third largest african country, hundreds of times larger than itself. You know DRC is as large as western europe and yet you have over 15 nations, some as small as liechestein, much smaller than Belgium. This is becoz there was an early realization that it was important to let some european tribes make their own distinct nations to both preserve cultural diversity and reduce the prevalence of wars. Most african civil wars are caused by tribal inequities that are never addressed, but perpetuated from generation to generation. In Rwanda today, the tutsi are in charge and tomorrow, when the hutus do eventually take over, they could begin persecuting the tutsi again.<p>I believe the best lesson we can learn from the west is that of Federalism. In our case, I belive a federalism entered into by willing nations. Some may argue about resources being lost by some tribes. For the tribe that has been getting resources from others, it has to learn to develop its own, as they never belonged to you. look at most of those tiny european countries, and the southeast asian honkongs, singapores, and the taiwans that have no known natural resources, but are able to survive.<p>What I am saying is that today there are 53 nations. If that number was to explode to 200 in the shortterm as a result of the re-alignment of viable provinces, etc which would later make federal alliances with other common interest groups, then so be it. This does not include countries like Nigeria, which is 2.5 times the size of Zimbabwe with over 500 ethnic groups dividing itself into 500 little unviable nations. Here I refer to countries like Zimbabwe that can easily divide itself into 5 autonomous provinces, same for Zambia, and DRC from which one can get 10 or so autonomous entities that can later join. The main point is union of the different entities BASED ON MUTUAL RESPECT, COMMON ECONOMIC NEEDS AND INTERESTS, not the usual "we are equal in Zim", and yet all resources from all the provinces are channeled to the development of just the capital. This is quite the normal phenomenon in most african nations, and why is that? <br>

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#12264 - 07/12/02 04:47 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Boyz<p>I have indeed given the reasons why I say it will be good if adopted by everyone to its true spirit!<p>Producing a coherent paper to argue my case is not out of my reach and nxa uSiba efuna a different perspective ngingayifaka!<p>Matebele,<br> what you are saying about redrawing of bounderies could be a solution as well!<p>This could only happen under a democractic Africa where those that are in power are willing to listen to this issue!<p>It would be a good thing for Africa without any doubt!<p>It will pave way for Federalism, which I am a passionate supporter of!<p>But Federalism can even occur within the colonial bounderies that we have and people can still enjoy the sovereign right to govern themselves the way they see fit and not to be the always governed!<p>Political reform in Africa which can embrace Federalism and good governance which calls for accountability to those that govern and the observance of human rights by those entrusted with Power are the only ways to move Africa forward!<p>With good governance comes accountability. Those that govern can not always use Power and Authority to serve their personal interests but the interests of the governed!<p>The governed in Africa should be empowered to dispense Power and Authority to those that want to govern them!<p>They should be the ones that should give it and be able to take it away when they want!<p>The Power and Authority should flow from the governed to the governing and the governing should use it for the best interests of the governed. Anything short of this will be the abuse of Power and Authority by those that govern. Africa is awash with these examples and Zimbabwe is an intersting example at the moment!<p>How could good governance and democracy be achieved? Through the establishment of supreme constititutions that allow different African peoples to govern themselves in Federal States of their own geographical areas of influence!<p>Power to the people not more Powers to the megalomaniacs! This is what dear Africa needs and I think this is what NEPAD is advocating for!<p>NEPAD may not have singled out Federalism as part of good governance, but it is at the very heart of good governance and a good solution for African problems!

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#12265 - 07/12/02 06:22 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Bhekuzulu Khumalo Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Mfowethu, Msilawobe. I gave examples where democracy did not give rise to industrialization or development, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea. In all all these countries throughout the 50's, 60's 70's and 80's they were run by dictators and they had spectecular economic growth many times 12% they became known as Asian Tigers. <p>NEPAD, I have gave you a clear example of its flaw, it does not address the restriction of participation within an economy. Go to the home of NEPAD and start your own electricity generating company, go there and start your own phone company. You can not.<p>Nguni, I told you we have to be their guides, they are like little babies left alone in the forest and will get eaten up if they are not carefull. But we must be suttle in order not to hurt their feelings. <p>Federalism, NEPAD like everything before it refuses to acknowledge that being black is not meaning we are the same. We are different nations. NEPAD is trying to be very ignorant. It refuses to go to the core of Africa's problems.<p>I hope sir you are satisfied.<p>Your Brother<br>Bhekuzulu Khumalo Ka mbonambi, Ka Mashobani, Ka Langa, Ka Ngungulu

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#12266 - 07/13/02 11:45 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
iBoyz yezkweyeni Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 147
"Producing a coherent paper to argue my case is not out of my reach and nxa uSiba efuna a different perspective ngingayifaka"!<p><br>I have no doubts about your capability(I wasn't implying that it's out of your reach), thumela kuSibalukhulu,ungalindi yena aze akucele.<p>I look forward to the paper.<p>Sebenza!!!<p>

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#12267 - 07/13/02 01:33 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bheki<p>So Bheki if the economy of Zimbabwe and that of Matebeleland had been a Tiger like those of Asian countires with dictactorial and genocidal Mugabe at its helm and having killed more than 20 000 of our own, are you suggesting that you would be happy with that situation?<p>You seem to be driven by an idealogy of tribal supremacy like Mugabe, which has caused a lot of problems in Africa. In that respect you are no different from Mugabe!<p>Africa does not need anymore tribal supremacy and domination of other tribes!<p>This idealogy has seen the abuse of human rights of minority tribes by majority tribes who think that by the virtue of being the majority gives them the right of supremacy over others and deny them their human rights!<p>NEPAD is saying no to this and that is not wrong!

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#12268 - 07/13/02 01:45 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Boyz <p>Mfowethu you read too much into that statement!<p>It was never intended to mean that it is beyond my capability but was meant to say if there is a need to present a different view point on NEPAD and Sibalukhulu deems it fit to get that view, then it could be done!<p>

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#12269 - 07/13/02 07:51 PM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Bhekuzulu Khumalo Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I said voting is not a recipe for development. Never has been never will be no matter how you argue. This is a discussion on development not human rights. And to develop a system of elections is not needed. Work is needed. Zimbabwe has had elections since 1980 in case you did not know. Shonas have never expressed tribal superiority, they have always maintained that they shall rule because of superior numbers that work in an election system. I maintain Ndebeles are superior and a chosen people. If you do not subscribe to it that is not my problem, subscribe to what suites you. What suites you are the Nkomos who say all are people therefore I will not fight for Ndebeles I will make money out of them., That is what at the final analysis what you Msilawobe beliebve in. All are human, afterall, the blood is red. Do not forget a dogs blood is also red so is a cows and a monkeys as well as a snakes. Most blood tends to be red, especially of mamals, reptiles birds. So all of them must be treated equally, stop eating red meat.<p>God and Amadlozi chose me, and most Ndebeles, those who do not believe good for them. RThat is why we will prevail, because we know, we know they were with us when we fought Shaka, when we fought Nyoka, when we fought the crocodile people, when we fought at Butha Buthe, when we fought at Ekuphumeleni, when we fought at Thaba Nchu, when we fought at Mafeking. Now we are being punished for sinning. That sin was to turn against our amadlozi and follow the way of others, rejecting our own. Our punishment is complete. For you to then say our ways are wrong mfowethu, usubhayiza. Look around you, that is its result, completed by Nkomo who said all are the same, Zimbabwe is what we want. rejecting uNdiweni when he said the solution is federation. Now too late you want federation, you have already sold out. There is still a chance to go back, but you refuse to accept that A can only be A and nothing else. You go and praise NEPAD.<p>NEPAD that denys A is A, it says A can be anything you want through the act of wishfull thinking, A can be B, C or D. In fact A can be all the letters of the alphabet if you wish. I have shown pure follies of NEPAD, instead of admitting it, you come pout with nonsense and compare Mugabe to Taiwan. It is either you are a fool or just a purely stubborn man who refuses when shown he is wrong and looks for petty arguments. That is the folly of the Ndebele, that is the folly of any defeated people. Was there genocide in South Korea. In your mind d you think a Mugabe is capable of developing a Tiger economy. Can you not see why he could not do it. But then you go to the wishfull thinking, if Zimbabwe and Matabelkeland were a Tiger would genocide be justifiable. If, If, is Zimbabwe that. No it is not. Therefore, A is A. If still you see nothing wrong with NEPAD, there is nothing more I can do or say or want to say.<p>Choose for yourself, judge for your self, there is the evidance in front of you. NEPAD will never amount to anything because it refuses to accept A is A. It assumes one can wish A to be Z. If A was Z instead of BAT we would have BZT. Be carefull. Adios mfowethu.

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#12270 - 07/14/02 09:22 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bheki<p>Are you now gonna educate me about the blood of animals...that it is red?<p>Your argument lacks coherence and clarity of thought! And so is your gramma and it is difficult to follow your ideas. <p>If you have followed my argument well you would have realised that I have declared my support for Federalism but you choose to ignore this!<p>But then you are a guy who first believes that you are a supreme individual and as such your ideas are supreme, yet your ideas are basic!<p>But then you have proved that you lack supremacy in your argument and the way you presents your argument!<p>Chaotic ideas reign supreme in your argument such that it is difficult to follow it! <p>I am not the first one to complaign about this!<p>Your attack on NEPAD lacks clarity of thought and coherence of ideas. Your ideas are jumbled up and so is your gramma!<p>The criticism on NEPAD on Talking point is well presented, logical and coherent and does raise important issues!<p>One can follow it better than your jumbled idealogy presented in jumbled sentences!<p>The bottom line is that we differ on this. You hold the view that NEPAD is a bad idea! I hold the view that NEPAD is a good idea for Africa if adopted in its true spirit!<p>We live to discuss another day baba Khumalo!<p>

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#12271 - 07/14/02 09:26 AM Re: NEPAD G8 Conferance
Msilawobe Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Zimbabwe
The AAA philosophy you have propounded about NEPAD is very interesting to say the least and so is the blood of animals' philosophy that is reigning supreme in your argument!<p>Hatshi ngizwile mfowethu!

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