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#1934 - 04/19/05 11:44 AM 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Busobenyoka Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Bulawayo
Mthwakazi,

In a recent discussion about Mbeki's relationship with Mgabe a friend suggested that the relationship had less to do with preventing COSATU forming a political party in the future as it is with building the ANC into an all- dominating monolith and consolidating Xhosa hegemony and control of SA politics.

The friend suggested that Mbeki and Mgabe exchange notes on how Mgabe has managed to relegate Mthwakazi to the periphery of Zimbabwean political life. The friend invited me to obesrve that most people studying abroad and in government positions are Xhosa, with a notable absence of Zulus. In this connection, he asked me to compare the positionn of Jacob Zuma and other Zulus in the ANC to that of Joshua Nkomo and other Ndebele people in Zanu-PF.

Interestingly, he further suggested that the IFP does not represent uZulu but a narrow constituency which a residue of the cultural origins of the IFP. The real power of the Zulus, he suggested, lies with the Zulu whom the ANC government has slowly but surely worked on to bring on the ANC side.

Finally, he suggested that the ANC will not seek the demise of the IFP for the political reason of keeping the Zulus divided and their attention away from the Xhosas consolidating power and relagating uZulu to political minnows.

This whole thing intrigued me and I thought inkundla might want to help me with this topic.

Buso

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#1935 - 04/19/05 12:38 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Buso unfortunately my credentials are such that I can only aggregate controversy on this topic by virtue of the reality that I am white; and we do not have a good record for consistency historically speaking inasmuch as whites spent a century, from the day after the death of Retief onwards, trying to destroy and divide the patch of earth called KwaZulu which the Qwabe man uShaka kaSenzanghakona and his House of uSuthu managed to unite, other whites thereafter spent a lot of time and effort to try to make KwaZulu whole again in order to weaken and divide a democratic South Africa.

Forgive my loutish and flatulent preamble.

I meant to say I think your friend is entirely correct to say that some clever fellows from a place where the people were the first to feel the whips of the Boers and the first to listen to the sound of chalk on blackboards have tried quite hard, following colonial models, to preserve KwaZulu in a continuous state of debility and division.

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#1936 - 04/19/05 02:23 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
While we are endlessly bleating about Mugabe's Zezurufication of Zimbabwe, here is one leader Thabo Mbeki who is doing exactly the same for us as Ngunis (Xhosa/Zulus/Ndebeles/Swazis), but alas, as predictable we are also jumping up and down mooing instead of uniting, strengthening and consolidating our positioning within the bigger Nguni setup. This must be enough reason to explain our ineptitude, inaction and inertia when it comes to strategic decision making. The last thing Mugabe wants to hear is a realisation by "his" sleepy Ndebeles of their natural historical bond with their kith and kin in South Africa. The prospect of that is a nightmare that Mugabe can not counternance. But true to form we are caught in a confusing web of ideological battles and as predictable our alignment is skewed and biased against our very own clansman , Thabo Mbeki.
Those who are resident in South Africa would not have missed Mbeki's Home Affairs minister Nosiviwe Ngqakula last week on TV asserting that "The people of Bulawayo(Mthwakazi) are traditionally dependent to South Africa for their livelihood. So plans are under way to discontnue the VISA requirement for them when they visit South Africa" . It must be noted that she did not bother to talk about amakhanka lempisi zase Harare. She was speaking for her kith and kin in Mthwakazi. But due to several years of unmitigated propaganda you will still find the likes of Busobenyoka behaving like snakes in the grass when it comes to relations with South Africa.

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#1937 - 04/19/05 05:12 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Busobenyoka Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Bulawayo
Mtshede/Lobengula,

Mtshede, if the imagery of flatulence suggests a political 'stink' in the aftermath of clanization, I couldnt agree more. I hope the region is spared another Zanu-PF monolith.

Lobengula, I am greatly encouraged by the remarks you attribute to the SA Home Affairs minister. It would be wonderful if visas were removed for Zim. They recently did so for Mozambique. My only concern in the observation you make about uMthwakazi. It is the implied suggestion that visa requirements can be selectively removed for Mthwakazi only (being the ones dependent on SA for their livelihood). And the simle reason for this is that visa matters are matters that pertain to a country, not individual members of a community. For the moment, forget about the practical problems of distinguishing at the border who is and who is not Mthwakazi.

As for Thabo being a champion of amaNguni, I assume that this cause is being waged against amaSuthu and other non-Nguni groups, perhaps including the Shona. But I still have a problem how this theory, if it is correct, sits with Mbeki's 'cosy' relationship loMgabe and udlame lwakwaZulu? Further, I am not so sure why Mbeki would define such a cause against groups who have not shown any united hostility to Mbeki (forgive my ignorance here!). All indications suggest that the real contest for political power in SA is between uZulu and and what we might, in our naivety describe as Xhosa-led attempt to dominate SA politics.

I am not a snake in the grass; I just raise and debate issues that are of interest to me and others.

Buso

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#1938 - 04/20/05 07:38 AM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Buso

Hk hk hk the "snake in the grass" allegory or figure of speech is derived from your name which makes reference to a "snake" hk hk.

Buso, the main issue in Southern African politics is that rather let us have a strong consolidated Nguni movement or a strong Nguni leader like Thabo Mbeki in order to strengthen the Ngunis as a nation. It must be noted that Ngunis, like the Shona under Mugabe, are a combination of related tribes (Zulu/Xhosa/Swazi/Ndebele). Personally I would prefer to see a very strong and influential Nguni leadership of the SADC region. That can only be to our benefit. Asazi njalo.

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#1939 - 04/20/05 12:00 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Busobenyoka Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Bulawayo
Lobengula,

Interesting paradigm; so the real political fight is between the Thabo Mbeki Nguni faction against the Mgabe-led Non-Nguni faction?

Angazi, but it does seem somewhat fanciful!

My other worry is your description of Thabo Mbeki as 'strong'. 'Stubborn', maybe.

I would err on the side of a visionary and innovative leadership than a stubborn or even strong leader.

Buso

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#1940 - 04/20/05 01:16 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Buso

You must bear in mind that insofaras the people of South Africa are concerned, Thabo Mbeki has done very well. They all give him a thumbs up!!. The only area of concern is the HIV/AIDS issue. But despite his ideological and/or scientific differences with mainstream AIDS scientist, he has not stooped to the level of refusing to roll-out Anti-retroviral drugs. Despite his misgivings about the real cause of HIV/AIDS he has none-theless allowed debate to rage in this direction and the roll-out is indeed in progress.

Personally , I do not see where exactly has Thabo gone bonkers at all. He is one hell of a leader who has done extremely well for his country, defying prophets of doom in the process.

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#1941 - 04/20/05 03:10 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Maqhamehlezi Offline
Nduna
****

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Emzini wezi-Nkonjane

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#1942 - 04/26/05 12:15 PM Re: 'ZANUNIZATION' AND CLANIZATION OF SA
Ndumshy Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 201
Loc: Hillbrow Inn
Ningakhohlwa ke ukuthi uMbeki is the leader of the ANC which advocates for nationalism that transends tribal differences as their basic ideology, which might be read by some as a ploy by the Xhosa to dominate other tribes. That's exactly the same picture painted by Cde Bob (read Unity Accord)to the whole world, meanwhile he's tackling us from behind. I'm just not very sure that Mbeki and his ANC sees inkinga zethu as uniquely Mthwakazian as opposed to National (Zim).

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