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#2032 - 05/26/05 12:07 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
sthutha Offline

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 304

Okululazisa uNcube kwawami amehlo yikuthi athi u****a uqale "5 years ago to be authoritarian".That to is the lowest the man can try to be seen to anti-agrarian reforms zenja.How can he of all people continoually emphasize that flawed aspect of history?

He does challenge ****a to the extent that the white man are pleased but I find patronising that we should ignore selective veiws when it comes to ****a's crimes.Mugabe should be seen for what he is Prizes or no prizes.Ncube should not ignore the fact that the people of Matabeleland have bourne the brunt of the murderous tyrant.That cannot be overtaken by the white land owners humanright violations.

#2033 - 05/26/05 01:43 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Lobengula Offline

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Yeyeni Madoda!!!!

What do we do when lies become nothing but the truth?, just like water becoming wine!!! Miracles do happen indeed. Here is a situation where one Duke of Leamington Spa, His Majesty, Sir Cde Potshoza Dphil,Member of the British Empire (MBE) uttered the following false words which he later unceremoniously withdrew under pressure and acknowledged that he was lying through his teeth because the honourable Arch Ncube had not uttered them:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> UBishop Pius kumele simqondise lapho ake athi yena uMgabe "was a good leader until around 2000" (sic).

Lapha waphosisa sibili ngoba laye njengomuntu owayesenza emaphandleni nge sikhathi se 5th Brigade uyazi ukuthi kakula bukhokheli obuhle ngo Mgabe.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I personally found this statement very interesting and intriguing and I rightly asserted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Bakwethu

Ubaba uCde Potshoza raised a very interesting issue somewhere in this forum when he stated that uMbhishopi Ncube needs to be reprimanded and rebuked for his statement that:

Mugabe was a good leader up to circa 2000

Is it not a historic irony that the years covered by the bishop as amounting to Mugabe's good leadership were incidentally the very years in which Mugabe nearly decimated our population to near extinction. Is it not a religious irony that while the very right bishop eulogises and ululates at Mugabe's pre-2000 years and brands them as the good old hey days of his leadership, these happen to be the very years that his (Ncube)own Catholic Church was compiling the most damning report on Mugabe's tyranny and genocide in Matebeleland..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But now in his very own words the Very Right Arch Ncube repeats these same words which our visionary Sir Cde Potshoza had prematurely and prophetically falsely put into the Arch's mouth:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since 5 years ago our State President Robert Mugabe has become authoritarian.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe these could be the last days indeed. When statements which were hitherto lies and falsehoods uttered by a leading royal Duke turn out to be a truism when they are unwittingly echoed by men of long robes. Now Sir Cde Potshoza deserves an apology for having been forced to unceremoniously withdraw his lies, which have now unwittingly turned out to be a truth as uttered by the Arch above!!!!It turns out that Sir Potshoza is a prophet, albeit, of doom first, and the truth later!!! Hayi suka madoda!!!

#2034 - 05/26/05 01:50 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Skuvethe Offline

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 405
Loc: I've never been to Heaven
Sthutha, while on the one hand, I applaud mfundisi Ncube's courage and defiance, i can't, on the other, help wondering whether he too is peddling the dogma of CAPITULATION if what you're saying is true - that he is shouting a "Zimbabwean" rather than Mthwakazi agenda.

Are we that far deep in the dogma of CAPITULATION that to be seen and heard pushing a pro-Ndebele line is to be "isolationist", as some of our own people(Dumiso Dabengwa, Welshman Ncube, etc) believe?

Shona revisionists are peddling the lie that M'gaxabe turned nasty only in 2000 and we have not been able to present a counter-message to remind the world that 20,000 or more of our people were butchered by M'gaxabe.

I doubt very much though ukuthi uMfundisi is a 'capitulator'.


Ibambe, ungay'yeki. Sebenza!!

#2035 - 05/26/05 02:30 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Potshoza Offline

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
The man is a fighter in the sense that he is prepared to risk his life, without a shadow of a doubt.

Looking at one aspect of the struggle he has rightfully addressed now and then will leave the snipers who are only happy to target ACTIVISTS without moving an inch themselves clutching at straws.


PANORAMA transcripts

"The Price of Silence"

Feagal KEANE: In the spring of 1983 Robert Mugabe warned villagers against supporting
dissidents. "Don't cry
if your relatives get lost" he said.

Pius Ncube (Archbishop of Bulawayo):
People just being gunned down, shot, people being herded into a hut, 40 souls
together and they were set
alight and outside the soldiers telling anyone who comes out I'll shoot. Most
atrocious things, most
unspeakable things were done.

(High Commissioner
Zimbabwe, 1983-85)

We had very much an eye to what was happening in South Africa at the time with
apartheid and we were hopeful that Zimbabwe would be something of a contrast, and South Africans would look at Zimbabwe and say ah yes, it is possible to work with as multiracial society. So I think Matabeleland is a side issue. The
real issues were much bigger and more positive and more important.

Pius Ncube Archbishop of Bulawayo
Here we're supposed to speak up, that was the responsibility on the part of that
British Ambassador....To say
that is a side issue..... he should imagine if his own family is being murdered, is
that a side issue?

KEANE: Such fighting talk has come 19 years too late for the Archbishop of
Bulawayo, a man relentlessly condemned by Robert Mugabe. He defies death threats to speak out for human rights and wonders why
others failed to do so in the past.

PIUS NCUBE: People must try and feel with those who are involved how they feel.
It's quite nice to say from the ivory tower 'yes, no, it will make no difference' but try and feel with those people who are feeling
the pinch, it makes any difference. At least you can say I tried, even if you
fail, I tried my best.

#2036 - 05/26/05 02:49 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Mtshede Offline

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
By all means let us describe Ncube as a traitor and Moyo as a hero.

It is the way things should be in Zvimbagwe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pius Ncube was born near Gwanda, in southern Matabeleland. He was one of
four children. He was educated in mission schools - first by Presbyterians
and then Catholics - where he went by the anglicised name of Alick. He was
baptised a Roman Catholic at the age of 14, adopting the papal name of Pius.
At 17, he felt a calling to the priesthood and trained under an English
Jesuit missionary in Salisbury, the Rhodesian capital that has since been
renamed Harare. He studied in Rome during the early years of Zimbabwe's
transition from white minority to independence under Robert Mugabe. Soon
after Fr Pius returned to Bulawayo in 1983, conflict broke out between the
new government and supposed "dissidents" in Matabeleland. Mugabe despatched
his army - particularly the North Korean-trained Fifth Brigade - to wage a
campaign of suppression, known as the Gukurahundi, meaning the rain that
washes away the chaff before the spring rains. ...

The Gukurahundi was Fr Ncube's first encounter with the
brutality that Mugabe was capable of inflicting on his perceived enemies.
"Awful things were being done that the state media was not reporting. People
were buried alive, mothers were raped in front of their daughters, people
were herded into a hut and burnt or shot if they tried to escape. People
were dropped into disused mines. This man is really evil." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even the Central Intelligence Organisation - Zimbabwe's dreaded spy police - has been to Archbishop Ncube's doorstep. In fact, he has it on good authority that he is at the top of its hit list. When Archbishop Ncube condemned the state terrorism that killed, maimed, and displaced thousands of Ndebele people in Matabeleland in 1983, President Robert Mugabe labelled him a hypocrite and "a Jeremiah" prophesising for the late Vice President Joshua Nkomo, a revered nationalist and leader of the Ndebele.

Mugabe accuses Archbishop Ncube of using the pulpit to de-campaign the ruling party and of being a supporter of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), the country's youngest party, which shocked ZANU-PF by seizing an unprecedented 57 of the 120 contested parliamentary seats. But traditionally, Matabeleland is a stronghold of the opposition, an issue cultivated into its residents by Nkomo, who was known as "Father Zimbabwe."

Archbishop Ncube is the first black to take charge of Matabeleland following the retirement of Bishop Henry Karlen in late 1997. He has invited the wrath of Mugabe who, although a Catholic, has had an uneasy relationship with the Church.

In the landmark 2000 elections, ZANU-PF suffered an embarrassing defeat in the region when its heavyweights lost to MDC political novices in 21 of the 23 constituencies contested in Matabeleland. "I am unfazed by the whole thing," says Archbishop Ncube to Mugabe's tirade that he is a tribalist who is using his influence in Matabeleland to sway the ballot in favour of the MDC. "I am not going to give up the fight to keep checks and balances on how people are governed in this country. Instead the attacks on me by ZANU PF have given me more impetus to continue standing for the truth and justice."

Last year, Mugabe threatened to boycott the memorial service of Vice President Nkomo if the archbishop led or attended the Mass. The government had to find a replacement. "It is untrue that I am a tribalist, as politicians want the people to believe," said Ncube. "It is un-Christian. I respect all ethnic groups as equal. There is room for all of them in the Church, which belongs to God. I also back and promote the unity of the people of Zimbabwe," he said, in response to accusations in a government daily newspaper that he was using his Sunday sermons to preach disunity among the more than 120,000 Catholics in Matabeleland.

The paper also reported that many Catholics were leaving the Church because of Archbishop Ncube's tribalism. "It is my belief that religion has a strong claim in politics but churches should not align themselves to political parties as they will find themselves, in the end, having difficulties in question some decisions made by the party in power," he said.

Ncube says the government has been dilly-dallying in building the long-mooted Matabeleland Zambezi water pipeline that is supposed to throw a lifeline to Bulawayo's perennial water problems. He has also lashed out at the delays to compensate victims of the Gukurahundi, the Korean-trained army unit that Mugabe unleashed into Matabeleland in the 1980s to smell out insurgents of the now defunct PF-ZAPU. The soldiers pursued just 100 former guerrillas of Nkomo's then PF- ZAPU party, which merged with ZANU PF in 1987. In the process, the soldiers killed thousands of innocent villagers.

Archbishop Ncube has also gotten into the government's bad books by complaining about the poverty prevalent in Matabeleland, which people in the region blame on marginalisation by the majority Shona of the Ndebele. He also blames Mugabe for mismanaging the economy and the presence of rampant official corruption. "That is why Matabeleland residents have snubbed ZANU-PF, not what I preach on the pulpit," he says.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

#2037 - 05/26/05 02:59 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Lobengula Offline

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Sir Potshoza

Given your previous admission of fabricating stories and alleging that they were uttered by the Arch, this time around I think it would be very difficult for God-fearing people to trust your present assertions until they listen to the actual Panorama programme itself. Would you blame them Cde Pots?

#2038 - 05/26/05 03:50 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Potshoza Offline

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
Wonkumuntu ukhululekile ukwenza lokho akubona kufanele ukuze akholwe.

#2039 - 05/26/05 05:14 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
sthutha Offline

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 304

Ngicela ukuxolisa ngama-mistakes e-contribution engaphezulu kuyenza ingezwakali kuhle.

Yebo Mtshede ngiyakuzwa okutshoyo but angiboni ukuthi i-comparison lo Professor Moyo on this one ingena njani.However umfundisi uNcube while esilwa loMgabe ngendlela elimncoma ngayo I personally think his consistence on the issue Mgabe turning tyrant 5 years ago is the defining statement of his assertion ie that to him Bob's crimes only stretch as far as violating the whitemen's right to land and the various criminal offences that stem from that.

While uNcube is trying to be National in his political views I find it upsetting that ama-human rights abo Mthwakazi and the various henous crimes perpetrated against our people are being overlooked in this so conveniently called fight.Akunjalo nje majaha?Ncube is currently talking the talk which will lead him to many more human right prizes but not necessarily to represent our people.

Maybe the death of commercial farmers and their loss of land is better appealing to western institutions and therfore worthy pursuing than our people's plight.Akubekwe sobala ukuthi ukuthi u******* uvele ungumbulali since 1980 and with the support of the West has always been violating our human rights till 5 yrs ago when he started to have a go at his masters.

Ncube's heroism to me falls short of that realisation and mention.If for sure he encountered awful things with the Matabeleland massacres is this not the right time to narrate them to the world?Are we second class citizens of our country even in death?

#2040 - 05/26/05 05:54 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Mtshede Offline

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Sthutha I hope you now understand that I do respect you and I do respect your candour but it's actually painful to read some of these remarks.

I don't think any single person has done more to publicise the truth about Gukurahundi than the likes of certain eminent people from our region including the likes of Pius Ncube and Mr J Mkandla, Mr E Simela and Mr E Mthunzi.

The Church sponsored report which Pius has endorsed remains the single authoritative account of Gukurahundi and Pius continues to keep that report before the attention of the world.

He has gone out of his way to confront Mgabe about Gukurahundi in a way nobody else has done.

He has gone out of his way to do the best he can in the context of a divided society to do the best he can to comfort the victims.

The first gravestone in commemoration of Gukurahundi victims was consecrated by Ncube for six victims at Sitezi.

Did you know that?

Did you know Ncube runs around in remote rural areas to this day trying to support the victims?

Did you know he ensures the Church structures do their very best to do so?

I deeply respect him for that and I am not prepared to let anyone tell lies, untruths, or inaccuracies to the contrary.

And I very much respect the fact that he has confronted Mgabe over the glorious hondo yeminda and its fruits of artificially manipulated famine directed at Matebeleland too.

I am sorry to say that some of the criticism of Pius seems to be motivated by subliminal antagonism to anyone who is prepared to defend the human rights of all humans.

I am also sorry to say that some of us are trying to defend the stature of some indefensible people whose alpha and omega is their own personal aggrandisement while trying to undermine some people who risk their lives to tell the world something has gone very wrong in Zvimbagwe and especially in Mat'land.

I don't think any of us is above criticism.

I do think criticism which is ill informed brings shame on critic rather than the criticised.

His record is well known at home abroad over many years...

#2041 - 05/26/05 06:34 PM Re: The Man of Independent Mind
Potshoza Offline

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
I doubt if Sthutha knows what he is talking about.

Archbishop Pius Ncube of Bulawayo is concerned with everybody's human rights, blacks and whites. The whites reward him with humanitarian awards and the blacks (Ndebeles for that matter) reward their own with scorn. Shame on those of you who always snipe from the sidelines.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Bulawayo, Pius Ncube, said: "It seems that unlawful agents of the party who caused terror in the Eighties are being brought back to whip up people to support the ruling party, who believe they have an eternal right to power.

"People have been threatened: 'Vote for Zanu or we will shoot you'. It is not just the farmers. It seems that there are a whole lot of plans that will affect civilians. The issue is not land; it is power." - Telegraph UK (2000)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Besides, there are countless feeding programmes overseen by Ncube and other Bishops. There is the Solidarity and Peace Trust which has addressed the plight of Mthwakazians at Lindela camp in RSA. The list is endless.

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