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#38556 - 06/13/08 09:34 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
bosso1926 Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 28
Loc: bulawayo zimbabwe
mfowethu kuyekele kunyile okungamaswina sizakuqeda konke okusegoli kungothathekile kakubuyele kukhulu wakho umgabe.
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sesikhona thina oMpumas one time,uzowuzwa umoya

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#38565 - 06/13/08 12:10 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27


Uthi wena amaNorth Koreans yiwo abulala abantu beMatebeleland, kungani ungatsho ukuthi labo abaqeqetshwa ngamaNorth Korean? Ulobufakazi bani ukuthi abantu beMatebeleland bafela ubuNdebele babo? Ukuthathaphi ukuthi abantu ababulawayo were innocent and unarmed? Siphe ubufakazi obupheleleyo, lalelo nani labantu othi babulawa. Sifuna ubufakazi otherwise just keep quiet.


As per usual you seek to play the man and not the ball! Your haste to put Jazi to the sword without carefully digestion, care and thought to what I have written speaks volumes about your intellect.

Any dunce or dunderhead who read my original post would be well aware that the reference to North Koreans per se is but a mistake for later I refer to North Korean trained thugs that the Gukurahundi were. Indeed in your outburst you have changed to red the text in my original post that refers to North Korean trained thugs. It is unfortunate that you have chosen to take that error and run with it hence the rest of you outburst about how many people were killed. I take it that you are referring to the numbers of people killed by North Koreans ? the answer to that question is , in so far as I know, none, zilch, nada, zero or nil ? take your pick. As for the numbers killed by North Korean trained thugs- those numbers are mentioned in my original post. I am therefore at a loss when you demand that I tell you the numbers of ?abantu ababulawayo?. If you are after an exact figure to the nearest ten from me you are clearly barking up the wrong tree.

You then ask ukuthi ngikuthathaphi ukuthi ababulawayo were innocent. Angazi kumbe uhlose ukudlala kumbe ukuhlayazi ngalendaba elokhe ibuhlungu ebantwini abanengi. Inxeba lokubulawa kwabantu linxeba elilokhe lingakapholi, elilokhe libhibhidla and here you are asking if those that were killed were innocent?? Uphambene yini kumbe ungenwe ngamadimoni? Read the CCJP report in its entirety especially the accounts of those that witnessed the cold-blooded murders and other atrocities, talk to those that lived in those dark days and ask them umbuzo wakho wobumbulu and them I am sure you will get your answer. Moreover do you have evidence that shows that those killed, raped, brutalised and traumatised by the north Korean trained thugs were NOT innocent.

As for you asking for evidence that the people were murdered solely for being Ndebele is, I am sorry to say, plainly dumb and stupid. Tshela mina nqwele- if people in Matebeleland were not killed solely for being Ndebele for what other reason were they killed? What happened in Matebeleland is generally refered to by those that have survived as ?genocide? The august MAGGEMM homepage refers to what happened in Matebeleland as genocide. The most burning question that needs to be asked is
Do you know what the definition of genocide is?
Do you dispute that genocide took place in Matebeleland? If what happened in Matebeland was not genocide would you be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us that labour under what according to you is a misconception that genocide took place in Matebeleland.


Edited by Jazelindizayo (06/13/08 12:14 PM)
Edit Reason: removing insults
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38571 - 06/13/08 02:10 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
jazi mfowethu mina angiqondi kahle kahle loMthakathindini wazalwa kuphi who is so insensetive about the massacre which took place in mat. uma ebuza ukuthi "how many?",were it the innocent killed?, kuhle kucace kimina leliswina elingazi lutho ngobuhlungu benhlekelele eyenzeka esizweni, unenhlanhla sikucyber, if bekusenkundleni yamadoda bengizobhahaza ngesagila inhloko kuvele ubucopho , ngimane ngihlawule. indaba yegukuramgabe ibuhlungu, i have personal experience of those dogs.women,children, unarmed men were killed, others buried alive in shallow graves, kanti inja emthakathi icabanga ukuthi its just some horrible story told on movies,zimpilo zabantu bakwaMthwakazi. kanti vele wena Mthakathindini uzalwa kuphi, invelaphi yakho ithini.

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#38581 - 06/13/08 05:05 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38585 - 06/13/08 09:08 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
iBoyz yezkweyeni Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.


Uyazi umtholile uJazi la! Angithi nguye owe statistical proof sikhathi sonke sikhala ngoku cindezelwa kabantu bakithi e zimbagwe. Umreyitshile sbali hk hk hk wamthela 'emga' hk hk hk elokhu ecimezile.


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#38597 - 06/14/08 11:23 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
omnyama Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 97
Loc: banana republic
Mthakathi27,
Waze wang'chaza Mthakathi27!!!. Lapha ubengumthakathi wangempela! Wayigwenxa indoda Jazi yatshaya ngomlomo ethuvini ngiyakutshela!

Hk hk hk hk!

omnyama

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#38598 - 06/14/08 11:26 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
omnyama Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 97
Loc: banana republic
Nejana,
Hayibo, indoda Mthakathi ibidlala loJazi, imphica inqondo kuphela. Ingxoxo yabo isukela le, angezeke wayizwisisa uma ungazi ukuba iqhale kuphi. Undoda Jazi udliwe ngeskelemu!

omnyama

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#38599 - 06/14/08 01:24 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.


Mthakathi - to be honest with you I fully suspected what your intentions were.It is self evident from the questions that you asked that contradicted what you wrote in one of the threads about the xenophobic violence in the last couple of weeks or so. I disagree with you when you say that you would have responded in the same manner as I have to your "provocation" I hazard to say that yours would have been nothing more than an emotional outburst in which you would have inevitably stated that I was Shona. What you had instead was a considered and temperate response.
Gukurahundi is not in doubt.
Genocide is not in doubt. What happened in Matebeland then has been documented through both oral history and by organisations such as the CCJP and Legal Projects Center. Even a blind man would be able to see all the evidence amassed. Only a person insane would demand statistics when all is laid bare in front of him. Thus on the issue of Gukurahundi without equivocation I stand shoulder to shoulder with all those that seek justice for the victims- deceased and surviving. This is the position I have taken from day one on this site.

Where and when you start to sing the soliloquy of being side-lined, of being unemployed when there are no jobs, of Shona men impregnating girls at willy nilly, of how the Shona have now taken over Bulawayo in numbers without a shred of evidence in sight other than that of the anecdotal type then that is where we begin to differ. When you claim that you have been denied places at institutions of higher learning despite meeting the selection criteria, again without a shred of evidence then the air shall be filled with our discordant voices as we sing different hymns. When you prosecute your arguments of the marginalisation of Matebeleland without rigour, without evidence (independent or otherwise) in a pedestrian nature all fueled by high emotion then shoulder to shoulder we will NOT stand. When you make these and other claims unsubstantiated but all being trailed as incontrovertible truth I will haunt and hound you with demands of evidence or "statistics" And so to the popinjay delighting on having the tables turned on me, i think you will find that those celebrations are a little too premature!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38620 - 06/16/08 06:32 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Where and when you start to sing the soliloquy of being side-lined, of being unemployed when there are no jobs, of Shona men impregnating girls at willy nilly, of how the Shona have now taken over Bulawayo in numbers without a shred of evidence in sight other than that of the anecdotal type then that is where we begin to differ. When you claim that you have been denied places at institutions of higher learning despite meeting the selection criteria, again without a shred of evidence then the air shall be filled with our discordant voices as we sing different hymns. When you prosecute your arguments of the marginalisation of Matebeleland without rigour, without evidence (independent or otherwise) in a pedestrian nature all fueled by high emotion then shoulder to shoulder we will NOT stand. When you make these and other claims unsubstantiated but all being trailed as incontrovertible truth I will haunt and hound you with demands of evidence or "statistics"


Mr Jazi you claim that if i were had to respond to similar quesyions i posed above, i would have responded in an emotional manner, and you go on to claim that you did not do the same, but what does it mean to insult someone? is that not an evidence of emotionality?
I thought you were being transformed to a freedom fighter, but my deepseated fear and mistrust of you has quickly been answered.
With or without evidence, i have to say that the marginalisation of Matebeleland is a reality, it is not a fihment of my fertile imagination, but a reality for all those who experienced and still experience it today. Mr Jazi please supply me with some evidence that the people of Matebeleland are not sidelined, ostracised and marginalised in Zimbabwe. I hope i do not present as someone emotional, if i do i am sorry, for it's not my intention.


Edited by Mthakathi27 (06/16/08 06:35 AM)
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38621 - 06/16/08 09:43 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Pray thee do tell sir- where exactly did I insult you in my original post? The original post did not contain any insults but you seem to have been taken in by the statement that says the reason for editing was to ?remove insults? There were no insults to remove I merely wrote that as a form of mischief making and you appear to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.
If the following comes across as patronising or condensceding then you have apologies in advance for that is not my intention. The truth of the matter is that we have had this argument before- the one where you demand that I provide you with evidence to prosecute your case. As I have stated before this is analogous to a prosecutor demanding that a member of the jury provide evidence in order that an accused person be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt?? Clearly this is absurd- where on earth have you ever seen that? No sir ? you are making the case for marginalisation, exclusion and sidelining ? the onus is thus on you to furnish the evidence. Thus when Mthwakazi says there was genocide in Matebeleland she is not reliant on the perpetrators of the genocide or on onlookers standing by the sidelines to furnish evidence ? Mthwakazi provides evidence. Evidence which has been verified by bodies without any vested interests. In the same vein when you cry marginalisation and non admission to institutions the question is how many people have been excluded ? is it 10 or 20 is it 200 or 2000 or 200000? When you say girls have been impregnated at willy nilly ? how many have fallen foul of the fellas from the east ? is it 10 or 20 or 200 or 2000. When you state that jobs in Matebeleland are being given to the Shona you must state how many jobs are available in Matebeleland and what proportion of those jobs are occupied people from outside the region when they need not be. No one is asking for figures to the nearest ten or to three significant figures here. When you say that Matebeleland in underdeveloped you must go on to explain how, in country that is regarded as Third world and therefore underdeveloped, whose economy has all but collapsed where poverty and squalor reign supreme, how it is that a region can be said to be without development. You need to show that indicators of underdevelopment are higher in Matebeleland than elsewhere in the country- such indicators as infant mortality rates, mortality rates , literacy, unemployment, poverty and others.
Why is it necessary to do all this- the answer to that is ? credibility. It makes the case more credible and thus more likely to win you converts, sympathy and empathy to your cause.It would also remove doubts and prove that there is no exaggeration. While your evidence remains tenous and anecdotal you will never be able to win converts or sympathy to your cause and you run the risk of being dismissed as a mere simpleton and a fool.
What I hope is apparent here is that I am not saying that there is no marginalisation or sidelining ? all I am saying is how much of it is there and to what extent.

As for being a freedom fighter- I do not believe that the genocide or marginalisation or any other ills real or perceived should form the basis on which Mthwakazi should seek freedom and uzibuse. Whether or not Matebeleland is marginalised is in my humble view not the basis for waging a campaign for freedom. The truth of the matter is that the ills that have be-fallen Mthwakazi do not make her unique and cannot be the basis for people to cry freedom. Am I saying that Mthwakazi should never seek to freedom ? no that is not what I am saying. For me the basis of Mthwakazi or any other nation seeking its freedom is founded in the belief that every man, every nation every people have a right to determine and decide their destiny. Mthwakazi has a right to self determination - not because of marginalisation or any other perceived slights but because it is the right of the people to decide who and what rules them. To tha end Mthwakazi does not need any crutches to lean on in her long walk to freedom. She does not need the crutch of marginalisaton nor that of girls impregnated willy nilly not that of exclusion from universities. No sir no crutch is required just a boldness hitherto unseen.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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