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#38715 - 06/21/08 12:52 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Duze
Yeyi mfowethu waze wayibhala lendaba yakho, ingihlengezelisa ezinyembezi, ibuhlungu kanti kunjalo iyqiniso ngoba vele iningi lethu ledlule kukho lokho okubhalileyo. Ibuhlungu indaba kaMthwakazi, ibabuhlungu kakhulu uma abanye bethe siyabheda ngalencindezelo ezikhuluma ngayo esiyenziwa ngaMaTshona. Asibhedi sibili, sikhjuluma into esiyaziyo. Sikhuluma ngempilo esayiphila, sikhuluma ngempilo esiyiphilayo. UMthwakazi akalalo ikusasa elikhanyayo kweleZimbagwe. Mfowethu bambisana lezinye insizwa sakheni isizwe. Singesabi ukufa, loma ukubulawa vele isizwe sesibhujisiwe ngamaTshona. Uma besiqeda abavele basiqede sonke kungabi ndaba zalutho mani.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38719 - 06/21/08 02:50 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Duze Iam loathe to engage in any form of debate with a man who is yet to discover the "caps lock" on his computer and who insists on starting sentences with lower case letters. It is nice to note that you have evolved and are now capable of writting in paragraphs ! Progress! Albeit at a snail pace.

As to your tale of woe above- well sh*t happens. Kusemhlabeni lana njalo lumhlaba uyahlaba. Tough sh*t!! Emotional blackmail and outbursts have little or no place in rigorous and objective debate
Abelungu bayatsho ukuthi one swallow does not a summer make - are your experiences the norm for all people from Matebeleland? Is there no Shona person with a similar tale of woe bearing in mind that lana kusemhlabeni njalo lumhlaba uyahlaba! Tshela mina nqwele - bangaki abantu whose tales of woe are similar to yours - is it 2 or 20 or 200 or 20000. I know you will say that banengi to which one may legitimately ask inani elinengi ngelinganani?
You then go on to bleat after your fashion about the numbers of Shona in educational and other training institutions in Matebeleland- to which I will state an old argument - these are national institutions and the fact that there are in Matebeleland does no neccessarily mean that they should be reserved solely for the inhabitants of the region regardless whether those inhabitants meet the selection criteria or not?
You state, again after your fashion, that these places are full of Shona but you dein to mention what proportion of those students are Shona - is is 100%, 50% , 20% Shona? The same argument can and is applied to ukugcwala kwamaShona koBulawayo
As for the so called Grand plan that to this day still seems to send shivers down your spine given the constant references that you make to it. News flash - that Grand plan is not worth the paper that it is printed on for it has failed to deliver on any meaningfull scale the objectives it set out to achieve. Bophi 'phondo, gcwal' ibhavu and focus on those things that matter most and not some moribund document!

Mthakathi
In one of the posts above you stated that the economy grew post independence and that was what fuelled development in Mashonaland. You also stated either implicitly or explicitly that development occured during the Gukurahundi era of 1982 - 1987.
I asked above and I ask again

  • when did things start to go wrong?
  • why was ESAP introduced if the economy was going great guns


It turns out that you were right that the there was economic growth post independence. One source whose citation I have mislaid stated that the economy grew by twenty one percent. Another source (http://www.newschool.edu/cepa/papers/archive/cepa0121.pdf) states that there was an economic boom but only between 1980 and 1982. The authors of that document state that "the post independence economic boom was unsustainable" Another article that I stumbled across (http://www.jstor.org/pss/722919) - corroborates the notion that the economy grew between 1980 and 1982. However, in the latter article it is stated that by 1984 "many of the gains in equity and poverty reduction had been reversed" This suggests that the economy was no longer growing as much as it was in the first two years of independence. This information casts doubts on your assertion that development n Mashonaland proceeded at full pelt during the Gukurahundi years (1982-1987. While I concede that you were right about the economic boom post independence evidence suggests that the boom was only fleeting and it is my contention that due to the lack of sustainability of a robust and growing economy, the development of Mashonaland was no where near the levels that you suggest.
I can understand why you (not you personally) would adopt a reductionist view- a view that looks at the world and sees things as either black or white. Thus in order to push the agenda for an independent Mthwakazi it is expedient to state that "Mashonaland developed while Matebeleland did not"
You also state that had development taken place in Matebeleland then peradventure you would not be agitating for independence. Again I beg to differ because,first and foremost it is my contention that the little development that took place in Mashonaland was nowhere near enough to result in two-tier state - that is the Shona did not and most certainly do not enjoy a higher standard of living than that of the Matebele. Secondly, if the independence of Mthwakazi is based on the principle of the right to self determination then Mthwakazi ought to seek her independence regardless whether her children's bellies are full or empty. If it is a matter of principle then your principles do not change depending on whether your stomach is full.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38737 - 06/22/08 09:51 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
cabucabu Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Dallas
The grand plan achieved its objectives, all business is now owned by Shona's, even if those business's are not functioning at full capacity the Shona owns them, one day things might be bright and the Shona will be owning everything including izindlu and land in matabeleland, Jazi be truthful to yourself, scholarships are awarded to Shonas, ask people who were at Rhodes and graduated in 1999, Ndebeles all paid for themselves, 80% of the Shona's had government grants and scholarships, wena Jazi stop this nonsense.

Who said you must start a sentence with capital letters, you think this is an english class, it just oMthwakazi discussing, instead of busy looking at grammar maybe you should be looking at reality and discussing reality,

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#38776 - 06/23/08 09:41 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elindizayo kunjani. phila mina ngisaphila. ngiyezwa mfo ufuna ngibhale ngama cappes whatever that is. okusalayo uyezwa. okungixakayo yikuthi kungani njalo wena udungumqondo. uphika into esobala. uvikela ize.ngempela kanti wena ungumhlobo muni. kungani ungaphenduli umbuzo ocace kangaka? if ulitshona then why unamahloni wokusho lokho? uligwala noma ungumkhohlisi? if ulitshona and unamahloni okusho then uligwala. there is no way you deserve respect if you are ashamed to tell the trueth.

bhekala mfo. uthiwena kusemhlabeni .you sound so desparate. there are nations of the world who live a good quality of life. no state sponsored rape, murder, torture and greif. elections and freedom. ungathi ngokwehluleka kwamatshona bese uthi this is the world. no. wena nguwena okufanele utravele kabanzi ubone umhlaba. ezinye izizwe ziyawahlonipha amalungelo oluntu. ubusathane ngobakini le ematshoneni. ungathi kusemhlabeni.

as for your speech about public institutions being for everyone ukhuluma into engasilona iqinisa kwawena uyazi. they should but , but, unembeza wakho uyazi ukuthi if ungumNdebele ezimbambwe awunampilo.

niyahlupha nina bantu ngokuzazisa ngekufunda kwenu. i academic education inhle ngempela kodwa it is not wisdom. thina siyahlukanisa. umgabe unamadegree 14 academically educated but is he wise? so why are you so tied up about spellings and capsules. i am not academically educated like you but i am wise as to know that as a Ndebele my only hope of a life where my human rights will be respected , where my child will have hope, wheremy nation will have hope for survival is to get uMthwakazi free of tshona. not that we do not want tshonas in Mthwakazi. no. kukhona amatshona angafuni nokuzwa ukubizwa ngamatshona. bahlala kwa bulawayo. sizobamela ngabakithi labo. asifani natshona thina. we defend the weak.

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#38784 - 06/24/08 08:27 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Duze
As usual it would appear that you are once again using your backside for thinking and not your brain.
Ukuthathaphi ukuthi ngiyi "academic" ?
Kuphi lapho engilobe ngathi mina ngyi "academic"
As I said before to your sidekick Pentiyang'hlaba uma ngyiyo leyo academic then ngokwami linkukhu zang'kithi. What has that got to do with the price of bread? What has that got to do with ukuba seNkundleni. The truth of the matter is that I have challenged you wild and as yet unsubstantiated drivel and asked you for hard facts. In their place you have provided nothing other than raw emotion. You squeal ukuthi "wonk 'umuntu uyazi" blah blah blah" Well not this person yikho ngibuza ubufakazi.
Like umkhula wakho u Fist of fury (FoF) anyone who dares to question your dogma is a sell out or a British puppet but in your case inhlamba of choice yikuthi uthi "ulishona". Then by some convoluted logic you then aks me ukuthi ngingumhlobo bani ! Why are you asking me questions whose answers you already know? Are you playing stupid or are you simply retarded? I will not bother answering that question for it would appear that you have made up your mind ukuthi ngingu mhlobo bani. Ngingakutsheli 'qiniso lelo qiniso lingephula umoya wakho!

You advice that I should travel widely is simply ridiculous - who says that I have not done so already. Have you rifled through the pages of my passport lately? Like you I have travelled widely but unlike you I have done it with my eyes and mind open.
Opportunities the world over are not carte blanche - you do not always get what you want but kuwena and other louts here when that happens it is because its someone else's fault. So you didn't get into the airforce ngiyaphinda njalo - kusemhlabeni lana and you lomhlaba uyahlaba and you do not always get what you want! Even khonangapho eUK ocatshe khona bakhona abantu who wish to go to Oxford or Cambridge who do not even though they have the neccessary points because places are limited. google the name Laura Spence (sp) if you have time for example.That happens but kuwena its a sinister plot to keep you down. The truth of the matter is that you are fool.
Ngiyaphinda njalo - what proportion of students in institutions in Matebeleland are of Shona origin. For you to bleat that "banengi" will simply not do. Inani elinengi ngelinganani?
As for your drivel about human rights I doubt and seriously so that know what you are talking about- ngaphi lapho engithe amalungelo abantu akumelanga ahlonitshwe? As usual uyawumana kuphela.

As for ukuqala amasentensi ngama capital - kusemthimbeni lana - bonke abanye obaba labo mame baswenkile all dressed in their Sunday best all putting their best feet forward and then..
then beskuthutsha wena not even ugqoke i wovarosi, awuzihluphi lokugqoki 'skindi ubuyu 'hamba ngqunu in you birthday suit.And awulamahloni. Wen' uzojayiva la angithi? Sies man uyangi nyanyisa!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38786 - 06/24/08 10:04 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
Ngibulise bandla benkosi, ninjani nonke ekhaya
bafethu angazi kumbe sengizophambanisa kodwa ke ngizimisele ukuba ngikumele lokho. We have a huge problem , yokungavumi ukuthi kulungile ukungaboni ngeso linye(different points of views).Siyisizwe sinje kufanele njalo akuwona umhlola ukuthi singaboni ngeso linye, otherwise if sonke besicabanga ngokufana, then we are heading for disaster.Jazi mfethu indaba yakho nabo bonke abaningi ingathi isuka kude, njalo igxamukela every where even kungadingeki, kanti inkinga yini,ngumbono wakho noma yibunguwe bakho, noma ngokunye okupersonally. Indaba yeMatebeleland vs development,Gukurahundi vs victims, institution vs number of ndebele intakes, indaba le is very sensitive mfoka Jazi ukuthi thats is why abanengi becabanga ukuba mhlawumbe ulishona ngoba ulokudlala njalo ugabaze uma ukhuluma ngayo, you show no pain in it. mhlawumbe uzama uxwayisa uMthwakazi to think out of the box, not to look at causes but solutions. Uma kunjalo ke, you have a very insensitive way of showing it. Uzothola iningi likusola noma ususiza nombono omuhle bavele bathi nangu uJazi uqalile, kanti ke ubesiza nento enganceda isizwe.Ngingazi mfoka Jazi ulwazi lwakho lunganani ngokwabelana komnotho kwelezimbabwe,kunesandla semfene esedlala indima laphayana. Ngiyazi mhlawumbe awungeke uvumelane nami probably look for proof or evidence,of which okwamanje i cant give.
(A)Matebeleland vs Development, yes there very little if nothing at all due to 1:immediately after independence, there was dissident issue, investors were scared and warned to stay away from mat for fear of their lives;2:there were no MP representing the Mat cos the zapu MP were sideline or refer to as supporter of dissident. what ever fund they could request from the govt budget was seen as funding the dissident regime.bebengekho abantu abarepresenter imfuno zabantu bema matebeleland at grass root level.
(B)Gukurahundi vs victim- ngingazi ke Jazi ukuthi ukhulele kuphi kodwa ke buza abantu abavela kundawo ezifana tsholotsho,lupane, kezi,mapisa, halisupi, manama,silobela,even nemzini omkhulu ibyo bebentshontshwa abantu bayebulawa ngundlu. there you must show sensitivity there mngane, ungamane nje uwele,esintwini kulendlela okukhulunywa ngakhona, umane nje uthi bhadla, kuyazila uzobulawa ngabantu.
(C)institutions vs number of ndebele-uyabona ke ibuhlungu ngoba i personally experienced it, eg how can you enrol someone from Murewa at Gwanda zintec ukufundela ubutitsha azofundisa abantwana bakagrade 1 ekafusi engazi no A oyedwa wesindebele, are you going to teach in english?, i dont think so.even ibyo poltech amalecture ayebuya nezihlobo zabo from that far end, not even go thru the process, bahle bangena straight.what happens to the mat scholars and development of the area. izinto zonke lezi zi linked baba,no tertiary training no career, no career no development, thats why they saw it fit to hire people from all over maswinaland, lana bantu bathatha income and go back home and develop there, still nothing happens to mat. lendaba is bigger than you think it involves a lot things interlinked,it has a chain reaction baba. so qhaphela baba imibono yakho mihle kodwa ke lana, i think it is a bit harsh, abanengi bazokubona njengomthengisi, ishona,anything bad. you can be used as any scapegoat.
Mthwakazi nathi lets be accomodative to any critism, it will make us think more and deeply, even to be more considerate.abantu abanjengo Jazi bayatholakala, he can be distructive sometimes, but also helps us to think outside the box,make us check both sides of the story before concluding.
uJazi ukuthi ungumhlobo bani kuyaphica ngoba angasho noma yini ayithandayo, mhlawumbe lithi lishona kanti cha, lithi kayisilo kanti yinkunzi yalo, iyembethe esemvu. so mr Jazi people will judge by what write here in the post, its up to you to prove them wrong or right.
ngiyathemba i was not offensive, if i was, i pretty sorry bafo

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#38789 - 06/24/08 11:59 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
when did things start to go wrong?

You agree with me that the economy actually grew immediately after independence. That was my contention, now you are coming from another angle to justify your equality of opportunity hypothesis. I need you to tell me why was the economic growth unsustainanble? What were the fruits and benefits of the economic boom? Who gained? If an economy is growing at 21% and all of a sudden starts growing at 1% does it mean that the economy is not growing? Would you say the economy is in recession due to the 20% reduction in positive economic growth?
Quote:

why was ESAP introduced if the economy was going great guns
Do you really need to overstate your assertion to prove your point? Me and you know why ESAP was introduced and i also hope you know why it failed dismally, because i do.Therefore i would like you to tell me why it was introduced and why it did not serve its purpose?


Edited by Mthakathi27 (06/24/08 12:10 PM)
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38792 - 06/24/08 01:21 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Nejana- kimi you have not came across as offensive. In the same vein I hope that i do not come across as offensive in what follows.
I do not care one jot how I am perceived - umthengisi or whatever by people I have never met and in all probability am never likely to meet. My raison d'etre here is that of truth telling as I see it without fear nor favour.
Umangizobulawa ngabantu- kuyabe kungaqali ngami. Ukufa yindlela yenyama njalo labo abayabe bethethe umphefumulo wami bazoyihamba leyondlela

You state that I show no pain - esami iskhathi sokuzubuhlungu sesadlula. I am dispassionate for a purpose and a reason and I refuse to let emotion raw and unchanelled blind me. The currency that I deal with is facts- hard facts backed up with evidence. To that end konke okulobileyo I have heard it all before kuleNkundla; my position about the Gukurahundi I have written about in this very thread and others so angazi ukuthi ukuthathaphi ukuhlanganisa loludaba lendaba zama insititution as well as i development.
All your evidence is anecdotal and some of what you write flies in the face of reason:-
Development
You state that investors were scared away - from just Matebeleland? What if any other investment in other parts of the country occured? Who invested and what did they invest in?
What were the needs of the people?
Wasn't education made universal free in Matebeleland as well as the rest of the country post independence?
Wasn't health made universal free post independence?
Did people not have access to free education and health in Matebeleland?
Uyangimangaza Nejana - on the one hand there was no development (to include no universal free education andh health) in Matebeleland but on the other teachers were being imported from Mashonaland to come and teach Grade 1 kids. On the one hand schools in Matebeleland did not have sufficient resources to teach pupils wells but on the other we are told of people in Matebeleland being denied places in institutions of higher leaning. Square that circle for me baba - ngoba it does not make sense- here we have kids being poorly taught in equally poorly resourced schools by poorly qualified teachers but who nonetheless happen to go on and pass the exams set by AEB and Cambridge. However they go on to be denied places for further education Incredible!! Well and trully incredible!!
Institutions- it all boils down to the selectin criteria of those instutions. to me this is a no-brainer. National institutions remain national institutions regardless of their location and to the best of my knowledge the admission criteria was based on having the right qualifications. Are you saying the institutions in Matebeleland should admit people on the basis of their ethnic origin regardless of whether they meet the academic qualifications criteria. Mina mselufu kungagcono ngiyiswele leyo ndawo rather been admitted soley because ngingoweMatebeleland? Well and trully bizarre to say the least!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38793 - 06/24/08 02:07 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elindizayo kunjani namhlanje ngane yenkuliso embi yenhlamba.uyangixaka wena mathukana, awunamahloni uma uvele usho into elihlazo amphakathini? ngishilo ngathi uligwala. uhlulwa yini ukusho ukuthi ungumhlobo muni? yini elihlazo lapho?

ngesinye isikhathi you come along as someone who has infiriority complex.very typical of the tshona ngoba bavele nje basibheke singashongo lutho bazizwe bephansi besebesizonda.

as for ama facts okhuluma ngawo yiwaphi caca. ufuna ngikunikeze amanamba amatshona asebenza kwaBulawayo, nenamba yamaNdebele ahleli angasebenzi ngoba kuqhashwa amatshona. uphi umqondo nje lapho? yini nje le oyibuzayo?uthi 70 100, and wena ufuna i axact number.yinyongo yodwa le. mangingathi kuwena abantu bayafa bebulawa yingculaza uzothi ufuna ngikunikeze inumber so that is what you call hard facts osebenza ngayo. shame.
to be honest to me you sound like a tshona. kodwa uhlale usazi ukuthi isizwe sakho samatshona kungenzeka siqalekisiwe ngezenzo zaso ezimbi ezinobusathane phakathi. yonke into eniyoyenza yoqalekiswa nayo. bheka nje namhlnje uhlaba wonke ubheke ihlazo elenziwa litshona. kukhona ukunyanyisa okundlulalokho.ungazama ukusidungimiqondo kodwa awungeke usiphazamise kulendlela yethu yokuyafinyelela kuMthwakazi.asinifuni kanti ni8na nisifunani?

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#38794 - 06/24/08 02:09 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi
No Mthakathi the economy is not in recession it is growing. The questions then becomes -Is the growth of the economy sufficient to fuel development at the level or extent that you imply? Far from changing my angle- it all part of the same line of reasoning. Lest you accuse me of changing my angle - let me state what questions I have already asked and what questions I will ask:
First and foremost was there economic growth post independence?
Secondly is how much of it (the growth) was there?
Thirdly how long did the economic growth last?

Fourthly, when all these factors are taken into consideration (as well as areas that I will explore below) was there enough capacity for the detailed and extensive development of Mashonaland that you claim took place during those dark times.
If the answer to the last questionis in the affirmative, then reason and logic dictate that Zimbabwe harkened back to a two tier system in which the Shona enjoyed better standards of living than the Matebele. If that is the case where is the evidence?

You ask why growth was unsustainable;
According to one of the articles that I cited above the economic boom was not "sustainable on foreign exchange grounds" which led to the government imposing foreign exchange regulation and apparently led to restricted growth of the economy
Secondly it is my contention that the gravy train was being boarded by FoF and his cabal despite the leadership code. Corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, lack of accountability and gross inefficiency all contributed lack of economic.

Why ESAP was introduced
A variety of reasons not least being the need to liberalize the economy and become part and parcel of the global economic village.
Liberaralization, it was hoped, would inject some life into a listless economy. You will recall that by 1990, partly as a result of universal free education Zimbabwe was turning out school leavers in their hundreds of thousands yet the economy was only creating a few thousand jobs a year. If memory serves me well it was something like 100 000 school leavers but only 18 000 or so jobs being created. Thus unemployment was rising again if memory serves unemployment as at or close to 50% ( I stand corrected on these figures
Why did ESAP fail
Geez- where do I start? The reasons for the failure of ESAP can be said to include its half hearted implementation due to inefficiency, corruption and lack of accountability amongst others. There is also the wider contention that these programmes imposed on poor countries by the IMF and WDB were doomed to failure as there are few examples where these programmes have delivered.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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