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#38795 - 06/24/08 02:22 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: duze
Jazi elindizayo kunjani namhlanje ngane yenkuliso embi yenhlamba.uyangixaka wena mathukana, awunamahloni uma uvele usho into elihlazo amphakathini? ngishilo ngathi uligwala. uhlulwa yini ukusho ukuthi ungumhlobo muni? yini elihlazo lapho?

ngesinye isikhathi you come along as someone who has infiriority complex.very typical of the tshona ngoba bavele nje basibheke singashongo lutho bazizwe bephansi besebesizonda.

as for ama facts okhuluma ngawo yiwaphi caca. ufuna ngikunikeze amanamba amatshona asebenza kwaBulawayo, nenamba yamaNdebele ahleli angasebenzi ngoba kuqhashwa amatshona. uphi umqondo nje lapho? yini nje le oyibuzayo?uthi 70 100, and wena ufuna i axact number.yinyongo yodwa le. mangingathi kuwena abantu bayafa bebulawa yingculaza uzothi ufuna ngikunikeze inumber so that is what you call hard facts osebenza ngayo. shame.
to be honest to me you sound like a tshona. kodwa uhlale usazi ukuthi isizwe sakho samatshona kungenzeka siqalekisiwe ngezenzo zaso ezimbi ezinobusathane phakathi. yonke into eniyoyenza yoqalekiswa nayo. bheka nje namhlnje uhlaba wonke ubheke ihlazo elenziwa litshona. kukhona ukunyanyisa okundlulalokho.ungazama ukusidungimiqondo kodwa awungeke usiphazamise kulendlela yethu yokuyafinyelela kuMthwakazi.asinifuni kanti ni8na nisifunani?


Duze
Uyaphinda njalo! Ngasekuqaleni uthi ngiligwala ngoba angifuni kutsho ubuhlobo bami. Then uthi "honest to me you sound like a shona" Ungibuzelani umbuzo impendulo yakhona ukhanya uyazi?? Bakuthengile yini ukuthi uveze ukufiphala lobuwula obunje?
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38800 - 06/24/08 05:56 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
... was there enough capacity for the detailed and extensive development of Mashonaland that you claim took place during those dark times.

I just don't get it, in your pains to defend the development in Mashonaland that you know it took place, you throw all the keys of principle and over-exergerate and misreprepent my statements. I am not sure where you got it from, that i said that the development in Mashonaland was phenomenal and of monumental proportions. I did not say that, all i said was that post independence the economy of Zimbabwe grew and this aided the selective development of Mashonaland. I am surprised at your assertions at times, you agree that there was/is marginalisation of Ndebeles but you don't say how and why. Let me try to drum this in your head, any deliberate move to sideline a people based on their ethnic belonging is undesireable, those who are denied the opportuities of life feel the pain. That is exactly the reason why the millions of death at a far place does not affect you as much as death of a single close person. The rate or degree (quantity) of marginalisation is inconsequential, what matters are the effects of the said marginalisation, be they real or perceived.
You deny the extent of marginalisation suggested by people on this forum but you fail to back your argument with hard facts. Prove to us with hard evidence that our facts are wrong. What is the degree of marginalisation or to make it more attractive to you, what is the level of un-marginalisation?

Quote:
You will recall that by 1990, partly as a result of universal free education Zimbabwe...

This was the government policy, with good intentions and probably it benefited others. This notion of calling Mashonaland Zimbabwe is akward and queer, it is a lie that there was universal free education in zimbabwe. I made it clear to you that in my area, we moulded our own bricks for schools, built our own schools with our own hands, paid school (building)fees, to buy building materials such as windows, roofing etc. Are you aware that after independence some of us had no books, we learned how to write on the sand. Is this what you call universally-free-education?
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38802 - 06/24/08 07:30 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi
It would appear that we have come full circle - back to the point where you demand that I furnish you with evidence to support your arguments!!
Who between the two us is arguing without hard evidence and facts? I have argued here that had Mashonaland received the level of development that you imply was detailed, advanced and comprehensive then that would have manifested itself in the Shona having a higher standard of living. The indicators of a relatively higher standard of living include, but are not restricted to, literacy rates, infant mortality rates and life expectancy. There is no such evidence. Indeed literacy rates and mortality rates appear to be higher in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. This flies in the face of the argument of Matebeleland not being developed. Read the following post by one forumite. This was posted in 2003.

Originally Posted By: Lobengula
Jazi

Like I said while researching population statistics for our debate, I constantly came across documentary evidence which strangely suggests the probability of a higher standard of living in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. I hereby draw your attention in particular to literaracy levels which show that Mashonaland Central has the lowest literacy level. Matebebeleland South has the highest efficiency rate (very few drop outs). Also look at the infant mortality rates., quite interesting indeed. Bulawayo and Harare are almost at par with literacy levels of 95% and 96% respectively. This dispels the myth held by many that people in Matebeleleland are less educated than their Shona counterparts, thereby raising the question of why then are we excluded from both jobs and higher education. By providing this research material , I want to demonstrate to you Jazi that when we engage in debates we are interested in the truth, nothing but the truth. We seek to interrogate issues until facts are separated from nonsense.
The following is a compendium of evidence I gathered. I provide it in good faith and this must not be exploited by those who seek to perpetually exclude us from the economic cake ( or crap?) by advocating for a reduction on meagre supplies we are receiving from this regime.

www.unesco.org
6.4.2 Adult Literacy Rates by Region
At provincial level Harare had the highest literacy rate of 96 percent followed by Bulawayo with 95%. This may be attributed to the fact that Harare and Bulawayo are almost 100% urban. Mashonaland central had the lowest literacy rate of 75%. In each region the proportion of literate males was higher than that of females.

www.unesco.org
6.2.6.5Coefficient of Efficiency by Region and Gender
In most regions there were disparities in the coefficient of efficiency and this was in favor of boys. This indicates that for girls there is a lot of wastage due to dropouts. There were several disparities among regions with Manicaland region recording the highest chances of wastage. Matebeleland South recorded the highest efficiency rate. Efficiency rates above 100% recorded in Matebeleland South may be due to unrecorded drop-ins into the school system.
Table 6-27 Adult Literacy Rates by Region and Gender. 1997
Male Female Total
Manicaland 90.16 81.01 85.13
Mash Central 82.21 68.48 74.98
Mash East 89.96 81.66 85.41
Mash West 87.41 76.30 81.70
Mat North 83.65 74.36 78.64
Mat South 86.22 78.49 81.77
Midlands 90.67 81.11 85.56
Masvingo 88.58 79.91 83.70
Harare 96.91 95.08 96.02
Bulawayo 96.06 94.66 95.36
Zimbabwe 90.3 82.11 85.97

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Population density and spatial differentials in child mortality in Zimbabwe.

Root G.

Department of Geography, University of Liverpool, U.K.

Large regional variations in under-five mortality exist within many sub-Saharan countries. Population density as a potential explanatory factor for these regional variations has seldom been considered despite it being implicated as a determinant of mortality at other spatial scales. In Zimbabwe, the "Ndebele provinces"-Matabeleland North and South-have significantly lower levels of under-five mortality than the other ("Shona") provinces. This regional differential is explored using the Zimbabwe Demographic and Health Survey and census data. Factors other than population density that may contribute to the differential are examined. After controlling for the effects of potentially confounding socio-economic, demographic and environmental variables using Cox regression models children aged 1-4 yr living in the Ndebele provinces continued to have a level of mortality 45% lower than their counterparts in the Shona provinces. The possibility that regional variations in health care provision and/or cultural factors contribute to the mortality differential is also examined and rejected. Population densities in the Ndebele provinces are of a far lower order than in the Shona provinces. The main causes of child mortality in Zimbabwe in the time period under consideration were diarrhoea, ALRI, measles and malaria.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Re-examination of recent trends in under five mortality rates in Zimbabwe: evidence from the ZDHS, 1988.

Bah S.

Department of Sociology, University of Zimbabwe, Mount Pleasant, Harare.

Prior studies on infant and child mortality in Zimbabwe have questioned the low mortality found in Matabaleland South. It was suspected that it could be an artefact of data. Using the ZDHS data, this study has shown that the probability of dying before age five (q(5)) is indeed low in Matabeleland South. Also while all provinces experienced a temporary rise in mortality in the 1980's that of Matabeleland was experienced over the period 1980-82, a period marked by political turmoil. In the mid 1980's when things had normalised, mortality in Matabeleland South experienced a decline while other provinces experienced a temporary rise in q(5).
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Disease environments and subnational patterns of under-five mortality in sub-Saharan Africa.

Root GP.

PIP: This study examined the subregional spatial distribution of child mortality risk (CMR) in sub-Saharan Africa. Data for maps were obtained from Demographic and Health Surveys in the 1980s and 1990s for 95 provinces..
East/Southern Africa had the following patterns: low mortality in all of Zimbabwe, except Manicaland and Mashonaland Central provinces. In East/Southern Africa, mortality differences were due to differences in intensity of malaria transmission.


I will not labour the point about who between us is arguing without hard evidence. So tshela mina baba how did the development of Mashonaland manifest itself?

The reference to universal and free education was with reference to the colonial dispensation - blacks had restricted access to education; a form of culling of black pupils occured after seven years of education and again after two years of secondary education (JC. That definately changed after independence hence affording you the opportunity to learn how to read and to write.

If marginalisation is perceived and not real then any resulting pain is self-inflicted. If marginalisation is perceived and not borne out by facts or evidence in order to push an agenda for a separate state then that push is based on a false prospectus. If marginalisation is perceived and not real and used to create a separate identity of self is any small wonder that that edifice collapses as soon as it is closely scrutinised.

_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38804 - 06/24/08 08:58 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elidizayo ngiyabonga mfo . usungiphendulile. ngizwile . uqinisile ukuthi impendulo vele ngiyayazi. kodwa yini manje unamahloni nobuzwe bakho? awuwedwa mfo nibaningi eninamahloni okubizwa ngamatshona. kwamina nami ngilitshona vele bengingaba namahloni okuzibiza ngomhlobo onje. onesihluku esibi. obulala izingane namakhosikazi. izenzo zenu sorry angithi izenzo zamatshona zihlasimulisa umzimba. zimbi .kodwake wena hlala la umamele ufunde ubuntu.

as for trying to say the Ndebeles are not disfranchised e zimbambwe, sorry ngoba a lot of people as long as you are Ndebele you would have witnessed it first hand, personally hayi indaba yokuzwa njengawe oprotected by being tshona.

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#38826 - 06/26/08 07:11 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Jazi

Before moving on i would like to ascertain a few things, do you understand the political implications of the economic demise? Do you understand the political implications of marginalisation? When did Mr Mugabe begin to be a dictator? When did the marginalisation of Mthwakazi start?

If you honestly answer these questions then i can see us moving forward?
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38840 - 06/26/08 10:07 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Mthakathi mfethu kunjani. phila mfo mina ngisaphila.we mfo, lendeba yalombemi ujazi sokungathi ngiyayizwa.ujazi lo litshona uqobo. uyamuzwa inkulumo yakhe . uthi akazi ukuthi amaNdebele ancindezelwe kangaka. uthi into yokuthi emetshoneni kunedivelopment kunasemaNdebeleni akusilona iqiniso. kube yena ubeshilo ukuthi ulitshona ekuqaleni besizommamela sizwe ngaye ukuthi kunjani le kwelamatshona. uyazi ngempela ukuthi lendaba yabomgabe kusutha labo nalabo abaseduze kwakhe.
thina sithi okulitshona konke kuyefana. kodwa yena uqonde ukusitshela ukuthi cha bo kuyahlutshekwa le kwelamatshona. singathathi ukuthi ngoba beculana nomgabe bonke bahleli kahle.

uthi imortality rate ingcono ngapha kwelamaNdebele kunasematshoneni. unolwazi olunzulu ngendaba zasesitshoneni. ukhona umuntu wesintwini owazi izindaba zesitshoneni kangaka?

uqonde ukuthi asitshele ukuthi cha bo, kwathina matshona asitholanga lutho ngalomgabe. siyahlupheka ningasiboni sinje. yena ngempela uza nendaba. kungani amatshona engakusho kucace ukuthi bantu besiNdebeleni nathi sifana nani ngokuhlupheka. basho nokuthi bamephi ngeGrand plan? bayahambisana nayo noma yinto yabomgabe? basho futhi ukuthi bamephi ngegugulawundi? ngoba ngempela uquqaba lwesitshoneni alwazi lutho ngalendaba. kodwa silence means agreement angithi.

ujazi akame ukuzifihla aphumele obala ngoba ngempelaindaba yakhe uma iliqiniso, cha yisimanga phela lesi. kanti thina siphila impilo engcono kunamatshona!!!!.phoke bavumelani ukusetshenziswa ngababulali osathane? mhawumbe kungahamba labababulali, osathane, izinto eziqalekisiweyo singaphinda sizwane namatshona. bangasibangisi bavumelane nathi ukuthi sibenoMthwakazi wethu.

ngempela kudala, futhi not kudala mani, manjemanje ngikhumbula sasithenga ingoma zesitshoneni sizijayiva kodwa singezwa lutho ukuthi zithini.basibulala basihlukumeza. namhlanje ungayidlala ingoma yesitshoneni? ungalinga? uzwa khupha khupha mthengisi. bafake nenhlamba nenhlamba. asisazifuni singazifuni.

nango ujazi uyadidiza kazwakali uthini. kungani angasho nayn nayn ukuthi madoda inengi lethu matshona asazi lutho siyasetshenziswa nje.sizilambele nje.siyazihluphekela nokwenza. kungakhulunywake ngoba thina asingeke siphilekahle uma singafezanga iphupho lethu lokubanoMthwakazi ongahlangene nezimbambwe.akuzifundisise indaba zalomfo.


Edited by duze (06/26/08 10:14 PM)

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#38842 - 06/27/08 01:13 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
MTHWENTWEHLABA1 Offline
Nduna
**

Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 360
Loc: UG
Sakubona Duze
Impilo ende kuwena lomuzi wakho.
Makuvunyelwa yinkundla ukuthi ngehlukana lombono wenkuzimalanga ezinjengawe. Phela abantu abanjengawe lingoqanda, kumele liphathwe kahle njalo ngenhlonipho. Angikaze ngimuzwe loyedwa laekhaya ozimisele ukuthi afake okuyizinto ngaphansi kwamakhwapha iloba abophele amabhanti abeseyathenga iskali samasese embare, kugcwele kwamnyama kwathu tshu ngeshona. Azendlalele nje atshiyane leoxygen. Khona nje ngeqiniso ngiyelekelela kokutshoyo.
Ungavumi uqanjelwa amanga ngo jazi. Akuhlutshekwa le empumalanga ngitsho lakancane. Luswazi lukasmakade nje kuphela. Kusiyangabo ngabaphakathi komhlane lembeleko. Manje ukufeza kwabo okukhaliphe kangako kwaze kwaphica izaphu, kungenelwe yingonyama yakwaJudah.
Tell me jahelidala how you can afford to carry out population studies, mortality rates in particular abantu bebola emamortuary lezindlini, ngoba amamortuary egcwele ephuphuma? Awukwazi wena ukuthi umuntu utshona lamhla abekwe kusasa ngenkinga yespace emortuary?
Uquqaba lwesishoneni lungabe lungazi nge GP BUT AMAEFFECTS AYO ARE EVIDENT TO ALL.
Uyazi umqondo lo othi I want to be different from everybody else, I want to have my own mind , I dont want to be affected by mob psychology. Ukuthanda nje ukuzibonakalisa, yibo ojazi laba. While its good to be always objective it does not mean that every time one has to disagree with others. It is bad to agree with other people s opinions for the sake of it, it is equally bad to disagree just for the sake of it. One cant be right from jan to dec and the majority wrong from jan to dec , vele akuyenzi, never will it do in any generation. The human mind is made basically out of the same material and quality.
Ukuzwana lamashona forget. There has always something strange with them noma nje sisebancane. Something just not right with them, something not quite right, ongakutholi kweminye imihlobohlobo njengoba nje sehlukile kwaMthwakazi.
Okwezingoma zabo zabuya labo bhudas bevela empini zonke nje lezakubo Zaire. Angikhumbuli mina ngigida eyesitshoneni before independence.
_________________________
HLABA-1-AT A TIME

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