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#38436 - 06/08/08 04:13 PM Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile,
Gumede Offline
Sikhulu
***

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 211
Loc: East London
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Ubukhosi ngamazolo.

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#38437 - 06/08/08 06:31 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Gumede]
ngubo Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Tsholotsho
saphela isizwe sikamthwakazi kusukela ngo1983 up too date but iunited nation yayithule kodwa la muhla umuntu usekwazi ukuhlala lapha kuforum akhale coz only [50 shona's] babengaphi labo abakhalayo.ngibuhlungu lami If umhlaba labantu abafana lawe bhuthi balalela uMthwakazi ekhala ngabe lelitshabi elingumgabe seyaphela indaba yakhe mina bhuthi ngithi umgabe wenzaloku adumengakho ukubulala ulodiwo lwegazi labantu
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edlezinye

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#38438 - 06/08/08 08:36 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: ngubo]
nomandebele Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 10/25/03
Posts: 149
Loc: uk
Sorry bhudi am i missing something........... babhalwe ngaphi ukuthi ngamashona? Even so do they deserve to die? Are they any less human?If this was happening esigabeni sakini just as its happening kwabanye would you expect symphathy then? Have a heart mntakababa!Let us not fight a war with humanity bhudi.
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Mande

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#38439 - 06/08/08 09:18 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: ngubo]
cabucabu Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Dallas
Originally Posted By: ngubo
saphela isizwe sikamthwakazi kusukela ngo1983 up too date but iunited nation yayithule kodwa la muhla umuntu usekwazi ukuhlala lapha kuforum akhale coz only [50 shona's] babengaphi labo abakhalayo.ngibuhlungu lami If umhlaba labantu abafana lawe bhuthi balalela uMthwakazi ekhala ngabe lelitshabi elingumgabe seyaphela indaba yakhe mina bhuthi ngithi umgabe wenzaloku adumengakho ukubulala ulodiwo lwegazi labantu


nansi indoda, iqhawe ileqiniso, were where they in 1983 50 shonas its a big deal, 40 000 ndebeles is nothing, what humanity we are talking of justice

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#38441 - 06/09/08 06:54 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: ngubo]
Ntombiyenguni Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 9
Loc: South Africa
Its time that people unite whether ilishona or ulindebele, people were killed yes especially Amandebele but lets bury the hatchet and focus on removing lelitshabi. Lets stop pointing finger at each other. Linthini lina bakamthwakazi?

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#38445 - 06/09/08 10:28 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Ntombiyenguni]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
Uxolo Ntombiyenguni kodwa thina abetshabi asibafuni, kabafe nabo kade besiqeda laboswayini. madoda ngivumelana nani , wena Ntombiyetshona buyela endodeni yakho yesiswineni utshiyane lathi

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#38446 - 06/09/08 01:37 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
vunguza Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 129
Loc: emaguswini
it is at times like these, where even in the face of such gross cruelty and a lack of appreciation for sheer human dignity expressed in such inexplicably violent ways, that I question the humanity of those that still think a person reserves a right to wish violence on, torment and even take the life of, a fellow human being, on solely the mere fact that that person happens to speak Shona, Ndebele, Zulu, Hausa, Luo, lingala, Tigrinya or Ndau.

as the saying goes, by visiting such violence on a fellow human being, one actually grooms that victim to be like himself/herself (the perpetrator of such violence). unless we as Africans exorcise ourselves of self hate and start to demonstrate a respect for human life, we may forget about peace, regardless of who assumes power in any given context and at any given time.
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#38447 - 06/09/08 01:51 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: vunguza]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
khuluma isiNdebele ndoda utshiyane lezinto zakho zokuthanda isikhiwa kanti vele ulisaladi yini? kanti wena wazwela abetshabi bona bakuzwela nini kumbe vele ulezihlobo ezingamaswina yini??? kade sisifa besiqeda oswayini wena manje ulesibindi sokubamela hatshi ndoda, angivumelani lawe!

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#38448 - 06/09/08 02:02 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
vunguza Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 129
Loc: emaguswini
Kulungile-ke Bongani, kodwa into okufanele uyazi yikuthi udlame kaluzange lwalungisa lutho. Wena nje usungaphila leyo mpilo ofuna ukuyiphila, eyokubulalana lamaShona, ukhumbule futhi ukuthi nxa wena loba isihlobo sakho sesifela ukholo olunjalo, kulapho okuzocaca khona ukuthi umuntu uyake afane lenyoka kwesinye isikhathi


Edited by vunguza (06/09/08 02:03 PM)
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Koze kubenini, what will it take?

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#38450 - 06/09/08 02:40 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: vunguza]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
wena ndoda ufana nabantu abamnyama abanengi , abakhotha izihlama zabelungu. uthola umuntu ekhala uma umlungu sebembulele kodwa kade abelungu beqeda isizwe esimnyama, kungani ungakhalanga. wena udibanisa izinto ezingahlanganiyo. lento okhuluma ngayo yamalungelo abantu ngiyayizwa kodwa phela lapha sikhuluma ngesitha sethu esaqeda obaba bethu. manje phela lababantu sebebulana bodwa , usufuna thina sibakhelele! hatshi baba angisoze ngayenza lento, yindaba bona bengasikhalelanga ngesikhathi sibulawa yi5 brigade yabo leyo. manje inkosi yabo isiyababulala wena ufuna sibalilele, uyadlala wena vunguza, udlala ngathi. Ukhumbule ukuthi vele amanye bethu nayo leyo mdc yakhona akusihlanganiso yethu.

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#38451 - 06/09/08 03:05 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
vunguza Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 129
Loc: emaguswini
But you are also a black person! I was just mentioning izinto ezifana le-self hate, but any way...

lalela-ke Bongani, ungafaki i-5th brigade phakathi, ngoba manje wena nguwe osusebenzisa i-logic e-tortured. a war situation vele ilokufa losizi, kodwa you cannot cause mayhem le-terror ebantwini ngesikhathi sokuthula, usebenzisa your ancient and tribal grieviences as justification. if you want ukuthatha back 'your' so-called legitimate space, then declare war and let people know what you are about. Lami lowo if you have the right reasons, njengeNdebele, I will support you. But you cannot go about usenza i-anarchy, behaving as if the world owes you a living, just because you think you have greiviences. Not many people can support you usehluleka ukudemostratha a genuine respect for human life.

it is amazing that you condemn ama-attacks on 'foreign nationals' e South Africa, yet you are quite ready to denounce amaShona, including ukubafisela ukufa. for me, lento leyo ungummangaliso and just goes on to show ukuthi abanye bethu kabazazi ukuthi bayini


Edited by vunguza (06/09/08 03:10 PM)
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Koze kubenini, what will it take?

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#38452 - 06/09/08 03:40 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: vunguza]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
heyi wena ndoda kanti yini ngawe, mina vele ngingumuntu omnyama, kanti awuboni ukuthi igama lami nginguBongani! AnginguCharles or John nginguBongani. Ngikhulumile ngabantu abamnyama kodwa bengikhuluma ngabantu abamnyama abaningi athanda ukukhotha izihlama zabelungu (angiyiboni mina i'self hate') actually its the opposite ngoba i am trying to encourage this people to stop izinto ze mental slavery.

Okwesibili wena ndoda laba bantu okuthiwa ngamatshona , yizitha zethu, hamba manje uye kuma website abo uzothola ukuthi nabo abakufuni. kufana namaJuda namaPalastina, siyingwe nenja. kodwa wena uthi abantu bethu babulawa ku war situation, yiphi lempi ebisilwa ngoba mina angazi ngayo? utsho ukuthi amadisidenti (just a few hundreds) u call that a war situation, give me a break wena mthandi wamaswina. tshiyana lababantu bebulalane bodwa akusindaba yethu lena, yebo khona kubuhlungu ukufa komuntu kodwa ukhumbule ukuthi yizitha zethu lezo. wena kanti wabavikela kangaka lababantu kutheni mnumzane vunguza, yindaba ungacabangeli abantu bakini abaqedwa ngopasi labo.

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#38453 - 06/09/08 03:52 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
vunguza Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 129
Loc: emaguswini
kodwa uyazibonela ukuthi the bottom line is, umuntu ngumuntu, full stop. beyond that sesingafakana the different skins, white, Arab, Shona, Kwerekwere, etc so that singaqala ukuzehlukanisa thina sodwa. that's all fine, but to kill omunye umuntu because you tell yourself ukuthi they are different from you, like basapota i-Zanu or i-MDC, mina ngikubona kuyize ngoba that is a delibarate attitude engiyithathayo. If I am fighting an ideology yokuncindezelwa lokuhlukunyezwa, then I will fight that ideology, but in the relevant way and for those reasons. I refuse to fight i_shona just because liShona, and nothing else.
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Koze kubenini, what will it take?

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#38454 - 06/09/08 05:06 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: vunguza]
ngubo Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Tsholotsho
umthwakazi kabulali muntu wabulawa ngamaswina.now it's different story shona 2 shona. abantu bakhuluma angani umthwakazi is behind all this.yikho ngisatsho lakathesi ngithi kulungile imagazi abantu abafayo ayakhuluma yokho ubona kunje. wena ubesukhaliswa ngabantu abasesibhedlela belamanxeba kuphela.ungakhohla njalo ukuthi abantu emakhaya bayatshaya ndoda if ungatshotsha,ungadlwengula,ugathakatha bakwenzani abantu?thina sabona abantu bengelacala bebulawa ngamashwina.mina ngadutshulwa coz angizwanga isiswina bengibiza

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#38457 - 06/09/08 08:41 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: ngubo]
makhokhoba Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Old location
I support and respect your point, In Zimbabwe as long as you are a Ndebele you will never progress to the next level, engingayibiza ngokuthi yiglass ceiling ngesilungu. We see the opportunitys in life but will never attain them. Better for us sibe laye owethu umthwakazi so we can uttilise the chances we get in our society.Or kanjani.

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#38462 - 06/10/08 03:48 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: makhokhoba]
cabucabu Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Dallas
[quote=makhokhoba]I support and respect your point, In Zimbabwe as long as you are a Ndebele you will never progress to the next level, engingayibiza ngokuthi yiglass ceiling ngesilungu. We see the opportunitys in life but will never attain them. Better for us sibe laye owethu umthwakazi so we can uttilise the chances we get in our society.Or kanjani.
[/quote

Siyavuma

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#38465 - 06/10/08 07:41 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: vunguza]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
vunguza mfowethu ngizwa ubuhlungu ngizwa umuntu ekhuluma kanjalo ngokuzwela amaswina, mfowethu i have first hand experience yabeshabi, so i dont want anything to do with amaswina. as uMthwakazi i dont think ikhona into esibandakanisa labopasi. lababantu basibulala, emotional, physical, economic namanje basapusha igrand plan yabo. so loku okwenzakala manje bebulalana its nothing compare to Mat genocide. uyabona ke manje yekela zibulalana izinja kanye nasegoli lapha asibafuni, angithi babesixotsha bethi sibuyele eSA, sitshiye ilizwe labo, manje sebelibhoshele sebeza begijima bafuna ukuzobhosha lana futhi. mina ngabe kuya ngani bengizozingela one by one, its easy to catch iswina mani. bengibhekile kuTV on xenophobic kungathi inengi yikho lokhu okuyizinto okugcwele emacamps, akubuyela kwabo ka mgabe.
mina kangifihli bafowethu iswina ngiyalizonda noma nnini nanini angingeke ngilithande no matter at what level, yizinja lezinto.even iblazi is poluted ngakho lokhu okungabantu.

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#38466 - 06/10/08 10:14 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
lvovo Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 163
Loc: KZN
Mina ngilomoya ka Devuli, amatshabi ayazenzisa kakhulu. Why is ther such outcry when only a patry 50 has died, maybe ku 50 yonaleyo kulabantu abasitshiyileyo lakho. They think bona baqakathekile ukwedlula amaNdebele?? Kabake bezwe labo esake sakuzwa. Mina i independence ngilapha kangiyazi bandla. Selokhu ngathetshulwa yingwe ngisebunzimeni. Let them kill each other hatsho they united against the Ndebeles kweminye iminyaka. Kabafe labo.
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#38469 - 06/10/08 02:06 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: lvovo]
Hitshi_Hitshi Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Nkabazwe
I Gukura ya feza izinto izimbalwa "effectivelY" ezinye yilezi,
1. Yachita imizi, (destroying not only the social fabric of the Ndebele but also both political and traditional leadership, that leadership vaccum is so visible today) Soon after 1980 very few families had breadwinners and most of that age group had been actively involved in the war and politics of independence. They were the prime target of 5th Brigade.

2. Infundo yasalela emuva ematebeleland by 5years and those brothers who could assist with the education of their sibblings were either killed or they had to disappear as far as possible from home. (the region was in a state of war, Mashonaland had free education and peace and progress during this time and they would not tolerate any criticism of Mugabe)

3. Amandebele abeyizitha zesizwe. (in Midlands areas just being a Ndebele was synonimus with enemy of the state. Most speack shona so fluently today not out of love but it was a matter of survival)

How many shonas have you met that are sorry about 5th Brigade, they all claim they don't know. So lithi sibancenge ukuthini. Let them fight their moster we have shown beyond any doubt that we are a principled people by not voting Mgabe in all the past elections since Nkomo died.

When Mgabe is finaly defeated they will never acknowledge that we Ndebeles played a role, but will be praising their own. its not surprising that even those in MDC today still think and belieave that such 5th Brigade Mosters like Perence Shiri are heroes, oMbudzi are national leadership Material. But yes they are right because they are in agreement with what these guys achieved through the 5th Brigade.

The Mgabe regime gave shonas a head start against amaNdebele in all spheres of life, and what should we be sorry about when mgabe using the same machinery they praised him for yesterday is demanding of them to show that they are thankful by not refusing him another term in office.We should understand ukuthi omunye ukhala esebhasini thina esileyini. Those in bus want us to do what if the bus driver is drunk.

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#38483 - 06/11/08 10:44 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Hitshi_Hitshi]
Ntombiyenguni Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 9
Loc: South Africa
lina mandevana with due respect ngicela like nikhohlwe nge kugura. some of have forgotten about it and moved forward with life l think you must all do the same. Firstly anifuni ukuya esikolweni and at the end of the day niblama amashona for averything its time to stop this nonsense bacause its irritating us.

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#38485 - 06/11/08 11:36 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Ntombiyenguni]
Mpho Ncube Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 32
Loc: Uk
Originally Posted By: Ntombiyenguni
lina mandevana with due respect ngicela like nikhohlwe nge kugura. some of have forgotten about it and moved forward with life l think you must all do the same. Firstly anifuni ukuya esikolweni and at the end of the day niblama amashona for averything its time to stop this nonsense bacause its irritating us.


Okokuqala, who's the "us" in your 'irritation'? Okwesibili, ayipheli, ngekiphele (until justice is delivered)indaba ye Gukurahundi. Sizoyihlabela ingoma le uze uhlanye kodwa ukuthi sithule nje, ngeke!

Woza uzozizwela ngale ku www.maggemm.org

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Mpho Ncube
Director of Communications
MAGGEMM
PO BOX 1870
Croydon
CR9 2FF
UK

ncubem@maggemm.org

Ayipheli, Ngekiphele Lendaba!

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#38486 - 06/11/08 11:49 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Ntombiyenguni]
ngubo Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 53
Loc: Tsholotsho
Kuzakhohlwa wena wedwa ntombiyetshabi and uMthwakazi never ever forget.Point of correction don't say IRRITATING US say irritating me.
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edlezinye

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#38487 - 06/11/08 02:16 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: ngubo]
Ntombiyenguni Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 9
Loc: South Africa
Angixolise bafowethu i didn't mean to offend anyone. l know that most people were affected by this Gukura and some are still traumatised about what happened ngiyaxolisa sizwe sikathwakazi.Liyangiphoxa ma selingibiza ngentobiyetshabi.

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#38490 - 06/11/08 03:57 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Ntombiyenguni]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
uvele uyiyo intombi yetshabi ! angiboni ukuthi usaxoliselani ngoba uqeda ukusithuka! kanti vele wena igama lakho walithatha ngaphi ngoba alikufanelanga!!! kumele ngabe unguChipo , uyayangisa!!!

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#38492 - 06/11/08 05:25 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: lvovo]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: lvovo
Mina ngilomoya ka Devuli, amatshabi ayazenzisa kakhulu. Why is ther such outcry when only a patry 50 has died, maybe ku 50 yonaleyo kulabantu abasitshiyileyo lakho. They think bona baqakathekile ukwedlula amaNdebele?? Kabake bezwe labo esake sakuzwa. Mina i independence ngilapha kangiyazi bandla. Selokhu ngathetshulwa yingwe ngisebunzimeni. Let them kill each other hatsho they united against the Ndebeles kweminye iminyaka. Kabafe labo.


I read this post above and I cringed. I was and am deeply embarrased by what I have read in the above post. I have come across such sentiments here and in other fora. I have been equally embarassed and ashamed. I am thus forced to break the solitude of my quiet contemplation and post a rebuttal of sentiments lacking in thought and most of all lacking in ubuntu.

Let me state without equivocation for the sake of posterity as well as to leave no one in doubt about where I stand with respect to the genocide in Matebeleland.
The North Korean thugs were unleashed on an unsuspecting and peaceful people. Unarmed and harmless the people of Matebeleland and the Midlands were misused, abused, brutalised and treated in ways that de-humanised them. Their rights, the right to life was abrogated at the whim of a rabid and crazed North Korean trained thug. Lives were lost - lives of the innocent - conservative estimates put the figures of those that died for the pure sin of being Ndebele at 10000 others yet still put the figure at 20 000. Less conservative estimates state that figures ranging from 50 000 to 100 000. Whatever the true figure the bottomline is that those that died need not have,and that those that demand and scream that justice be done have every right to do so. The chief architects and perpetrators of the genocide are well and trully known - Fist of Fury Mugabe, Perence Shiri, Emerson Munangagwagwa (whatever the spelling !) are but a few names that spring to mind. These murderers in chief must and will be brought to book. Bayatsho bona abesiTshoneni ukuthi okuphaphayo kuyahlala - kade baphapha ngakho ixetsha lokuthi lenyoni ihlalephansi selisondele. The work of Maggemm and other community groups involved in seeking justice for the victims - both deceased and living is to be highly commended. Loba nje ngifitshane I stand shoulder to shoulder with all those pursuing and seeking justice over the genocide.

Be that at it may the above quoted post raises a few questions. The writer states that "only" fifty people have died and yet there is so much out cry. The burning question is how many people have to die before there are noises made? Should those raising the alarm over these deaths remain quiet until 100 or 1000 0r 20 000 people have died? What is the acceptable level or number of deaths that justifies an outcry?
He who knows where the shoe pinches is he who wears it!
So is this what we have come to? So beacuse Mthwakazi has worn the shoe three sizes too small and felt its pinching so too must the Tshona? Not only that in the eyes of the above writer the shoe the Shona have dorned is not three sizes too small but a mere half or quarter of a size. So is this what we have come to- to relativise human pain and suffering? Sixty odd people dead in the xenophobic attacks - much outrage and much out cry but nothing in comparison to the 50 thousand dead. Because Mthwakazi has suffered so too must the Shona! Suffering is relative and the shona have not suffered as much!! Is that what we have come - my shoe pinches more than yours so shut the fcuk up while I moan and bleat about how hard and how tight my shoe pinches!!

The logic and thought processes that lead to the relativisation of human suffering are at best misguided and at the worst downright irresponsible. This is because taken to its full logical conclusion those that seek justice for the victims of Gukurahundi might as well shut up shop and head home since 1 milliion Tutsis were murdered in 90s by those Hutu fellows. Thus by this warped logic of relativising human suffering the number of Matebele dead in the genocide is a "mere" 50 000. When one reads the history books one learns that 6 million Jews lost their lives in Hitler's final solution outrage. Thus by the warped logic Mthwakazi has no "right" to seek justice for a "mere" 50 000 dead because in relative terms there has been less suffering than in the two cases cited above. Clearly this is sheer madness- human suffering is human suffering and cannot be subject of to relativisation.A pinching shoe is a pinching shoe regardless of how many sizes too small it is! To relativise debases and dehumanises those that died and those doing the relativisation. Thus those raising the outcry over 50 deaths have as much right to do so as those raising hue and cry over 50 0000 deaths as are those that raise outcry over 1 million deaths. As humans that subscribe to the notion that human life is sancrosanct and that the needless taking of a human life because of one's ethnicity, gender, race, colour , creed or political persuasion is simply wrong and should be decried. One life, one death is one human being too many to be taken for these and other spurious reasons. These fifty people that have died thus far in the orgy of violence are fifty people too many as are the fifty thousand that died in Matebeleland a fifity thousand people too many. All these lives were lost needlessly and that is wrong.
Mthwakazi has suffered at the hands of the Gukurahundi that is certain. But that should not form the basis of a careless and callous disregard for human suffering and needless loss of life be it Tshona or otherwise.
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Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38493 - 06/11/08 06:42 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
mzukulu-kagogo Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 113
Loc: eMajawundeni
Ntombiyenguni
uxolisile sibili kodwa aluba uqale wahluzisisa umbono wakho ungakasihlambazi.ababhale phambilini abatshongo ukuthi amatshona kawabulawe bathe"yekela babulalane".bavele ngabegazi labo ngakho ukuzama ukusithandanisa labo akusoze kwenzeka ,ukuchitha igazi ngokwabo ngakho thina esesaba ukuchitha umphefumulo siyabaxwaya ngendlela zonke.ukuxola is an individual choice which you have no right to force us to do,"we will forgive and move on",as you want us to,when we are ready, not when you want us to.if it was easy for you to do it then dont think one day it is for me.l try to forget but people like you make it very fresh and l start all over again.ameva ahlaba okufanayo, Ntombi.basibulalela ezethu izihlobo zimsulwa njengabo bona laba abafela ukungavoteli uMga...
ukufa kubuhlungu izizwe zonke, ngiyabadabukela ababulawelwe izihlobo zabo ngoba ngingowenyama,kodwa ngiyawenyanya amatshona ebulalana enjalo, ngoba igazi lalabo ababuleweyo labasazobulawa alikho ezandleni zami.bathi besiqeda most of them pretended they didnt know wat was happening on the side of the country just because they didnt want to know,ngakho kabaphakulule imbiza yabo kade beyibasela iminyaka yonke le(28 years) bangasimemezi asizange sibekhona ekukhwezeleni.

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#38506 - 06/11/08 11:12 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Ntombiyenguni]
Zwangendaba Offline
Nkosi
***

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1399
Loc: New York, New York, USA
Bafowethu.

QUOTE>>>>> " but lets bury the hatchet and focus on removing lelitshabi. Lets stop pointing finger at each other. Linthini lina bakamthwakazi?" <<<<<END OF QUOTE.

What hatchet are we burying??? Sekwenzenjani for us to bury "THAT" hutchet???

Indaba ayizafunwa ukutshiywa endleleni. That is why there is so much CONFUSION NOW about the past. A story is told half way and people are expected to live by it.

Ngeki phele. That is a word of wisdom.

Li Zwangendaba.



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#38515 - 06/12/08 07:11 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Zwangendaba]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Let me state without equivocation for the sake of posterity as well as to leave no one in doubt about where I stand with respect to the genocide in Matebeleland.
The North Korean thugs were unleashed on an unsuspecting and peaceful people. Unarmed and harmless the people of Matebeleland and the Midlands were misused, abused, brutalised and treated in ways that de-humanised them. Their rights, the right to life was abrogated at the whim of a rabid and crazed [/color]North Korean trained thug. Lives were lost - lives of the innocent - conservative estimates put the figures of [color:#FF0000]those that died for the pure sin of being Ndebele at 10000 others yet still put the figure at 20 000. Less conservative estimates state that figures ranging from 50 000 to 100 000. Whatever the true figure the bottomline is that those that died need not have,and that those that demand and scream that justice be done have every right to do so. The chief architects and perpetrators of the genocide are well and trully known - Fist of Fury Mugabe, Perence Shiri, Emerson Munangagwagwa (whatever the spelling !) are but a few names that spring to mind.


Uthi wena amaNorth Koreans yiwo abulala abantu beMatebeleland, kungani ungatsho ukuthi labo abaqeqetshwa ngamaNorth Korean? Ulobufakazi bani ukuthi abantu beMatebeleland bafela ubuNdebele babo? Ukuthathaphi ukuthi abantu ababulawayo were innocent and unarmed? Siphe ubufakazi obupheleleyo, lalelo nani labantu othi babulawa. Sifuna ubufakazi otherwise just keep quiet.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38517 - 06/12/08 07:50 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
Uthi wena amaNorth Koreans yiwo abulala abantu beMatebeleland, kungani ungatsho ukuthi labo abaqeqetshwa ngamaNorth Korean? Ulobufakazi bani ukuthi abantu beMatebeleland bafela ubuNdebele babo? Ukuthathaphi ukuthi abantu ababulawayo were innocent and unarmed? Siphe ubufakazi obupheleleyo, lalelo nani labantu othi babulawa. Sifuna ubufakazi otherwise just keep quiet. [/quote]

mthakathindini i dont realy understand you,uthi wena he must bring forthy the proof of the unarmed and innocent?sishele ke mfowethu ukuthi who were killed.kuyachacha ke ukuthi awazi niks ngegukura era ngoba you should have asked him that. kanti wena wakhulela kuphi ongazi ukuthi the most people killed were innocent villagers who were accused of habouring the so called dissident. the actual fact is the war wasnt against the so called dissident, it was part of the grand plan to distabilised and colonise, deprive us of our right. kanti vele le ndaba yamadizora uyayazi ukuthi yaqala njani. mfethu i am very disappointed at you, i feel like lashing out on you, but angikusoli mfana, ngisola abazali bakho they did not tell you the whole story or mhlawumbe labo ngaswina lawa ahlala eblazi.the figures may not be exactly but all people died,disappeared, abanye they died some years after the era ngoba they had internal wounds.uyakwazi eBhalagwe, you must visit there mfanakithi, its horror.
Ntombiyeswina uma ufuna ukuxola ngokwakho lenkukhu zangakini, mina personal i wont move until justice is done, the perpetrators bazoyikhotha imbenge iwomile ngifunga abakwethu, njalo uma ushadwe esishoneni, thatha uzwelo lakho ulwise kwenuzala hayi kuMthwakazi, such symphathy is worthless, safa saphela isizwe sika Mzilikazi siqedwa ngamaswina namanje sigcwele amazwe ngenxayakho lokhu okuyizinja.

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#38525 - 06/12/08 01:03 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Hitshi_Hitshi Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Nkabazwe
You Ask: Be that (at)as it may the above quoted post raises a few questions. The writer states that "only" fifty people have died and yet there is so much out cry. The burning question is how many people have to die before there are noises made?

A: None, a mere threat to life must cause an outcry, the question should be, ? Why are you crying over 50 when you fail even to acknowledge that more than 20000 was killed when it happened after it happened, and what was you action to those crying??

You ask. Should those raising the alarm over these deaths remain quiet until 100 or 1000 0r 20 000 people have died? What is the acceptable level or number of deaths that justifies an outcry?

A: I repeat, even the mere threat of death is suffient to raise an alarm. (The question is what is the criteria used for when to raise an out cry, 20 000 dead, you are reduculed for talking about it, 50 die the whole world must Know, are the 50 a special breed??

You Ask:He who knows where the shoe pinches is he who wears it!
So is this what we have come to? So beacuse Mthwakazi has worn the shoe three sizes too small and felt its pinching so too must the Tshona? Not only that in the eyes of the above writer the shoe the Shona have dorned is not three sizes too small but a mere half or quarter of a size. So is this what we have come to- to relativise human pain and suffering?

A: Yes and No, Yes, The shona don?t have to feel the pain only when they are wearing the shoe, but while the Mthwakazi is wearing and its hurting him. NO, if the shona had shared in Mthwakazi pain, this would not have happened now.

You Ask: Sixty odd people dead in the xenophobic attacks - much outrage and much out cry but nothing in comparison to the 50 thousand dead. Because Mthwakazi has suffered so too must the Shona! Suffering is relative and the shona have not suffered as much!! Is that what we have come - my shoe pinches more than yours so shut the fcuk up while I moan and bleat about how hard and how tight my shoe pinches!!

A:It is the supremacist ideology we are against, When Mthwakazi was hurting you said nothing and continue to say nothing, worse still we find the shona not only hero worshiping the perpetrators of that barbarism but also defending their actions. Read Mthakathi27 thread above, this is the loathsome answer I have heard so many times over the Gukurahundi issue.

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#38556 - 06/13/08 09:34 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: bongani]
bosso1926 Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 28
Loc: bulawayo zimbabwe
mfowethu kuyekele kunyile okungamaswina sizakuqeda konke okusegoli kungothathekile kakubuyele kukhulu wakho umgabe.
_________________________
sesikhona thina oMpumas one time,uzowuzwa umoya

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#38565 - 06/13/08 12:10 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27


Uthi wena amaNorth Koreans yiwo abulala abantu beMatebeleland, kungani ungatsho ukuthi labo abaqeqetshwa ngamaNorth Korean? Ulobufakazi bani ukuthi abantu beMatebeleland bafela ubuNdebele babo? Ukuthathaphi ukuthi abantu ababulawayo were innocent and unarmed? Siphe ubufakazi obupheleleyo, lalelo nani labantu othi babulawa. Sifuna ubufakazi otherwise just keep quiet.


As per usual you seek to play the man and not the ball! Your haste to put Jazi to the sword without carefully digestion, care and thought to what I have written speaks volumes about your intellect.

Any dunce or dunderhead who read my original post would be well aware that the reference to North Koreans per se is but a mistake for later I refer to North Korean trained thugs that the Gukurahundi were. Indeed in your outburst you have changed to red the text in my original post that refers to North Korean trained thugs. It is unfortunate that you have chosen to take that error and run with it hence the rest of you outburst about how many people were killed. I take it that you are referring to the numbers of people killed by North Koreans ? the answer to that question is , in so far as I know, none, zilch, nada, zero or nil ? take your pick. As for the numbers killed by North Korean trained thugs- those numbers are mentioned in my original post. I am therefore at a loss when you demand that I tell you the numbers of ?abantu ababulawayo?. If you are after an exact figure to the nearest ten from me you are clearly barking up the wrong tree.

You then ask ukuthi ngikuthathaphi ukuthi ababulawayo were innocent. Angazi kumbe uhlose ukudlala kumbe ukuhlayazi ngalendaba elokhe ibuhlungu ebantwini abanengi. Inxeba lokubulawa kwabantu linxeba elilokhe lingakapholi, elilokhe libhibhidla and here you are asking if those that were killed were innocent?? Uphambene yini kumbe ungenwe ngamadimoni? Read the CCJP report in its entirety especially the accounts of those that witnessed the cold-blooded murders and other atrocities, talk to those that lived in those dark days and ask them umbuzo wakho wobumbulu and them I am sure you will get your answer. Moreover do you have evidence that shows that those killed, raped, brutalised and traumatised by the north Korean trained thugs were NOT innocent.

As for you asking for evidence that the people were murdered solely for being Ndebele is, I am sorry to say, plainly dumb and stupid. Tshela mina nqwele- if people in Matebeleland were not killed solely for being Ndebele for what other reason were they killed? What happened in Matebeleland is generally refered to by those that have survived as ?genocide? The august MAGGEMM homepage refers to what happened in Matebeleland as genocide. The most burning question that needs to be asked is
Do you know what the definition of genocide is?
Do you dispute that genocide took place in Matebeleland? If what happened in Matebeland was not genocide would you be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us that labour under what according to you is a misconception that genocide took place in Matebeleland.


Edited by Jazelindizayo (06/13/08 12:14 PM)
Edit Reason: removing insults
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38571 - 06/13/08 02:10 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
jazi mfowethu mina angiqondi kahle kahle loMthakathindini wazalwa kuphi who is so insensetive about the massacre which took place in mat. uma ebuza ukuthi "how many?",were it the innocent killed?, kuhle kucace kimina leliswina elingazi lutho ngobuhlungu benhlekelele eyenzeka esizweni, unenhlanhla sikucyber, if bekusenkundleni yamadoda bengizobhahaza ngesagila inhloko kuvele ubucopho , ngimane ngihlawule. indaba yegukuramgabe ibuhlungu, i have personal experience of those dogs.women,children, unarmed men were killed, others buried alive in shallow graves, kanti inja emthakathi icabanga ukuthi its just some horrible story told on movies,zimpilo zabantu bakwaMthwakazi. kanti vele wena Mthakathindini uzalwa kuphi, invelaphi yakho ithini.

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#38581 - 06/13/08 05:05 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38585 - 06/13/08 09:08 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
iBoyz yezkweyeni Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.


Uyazi umtholile uJazi la! Angithi nguye owe statistical proof sikhathi sonke sikhala ngoku cindezelwa kabantu bakithi e zimbagwe. Umreyitshile sbali hk hk hk wamthela 'emga' hk hk hk elokhu ecimezile.


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#38597 - 06/14/08 11:23 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
omnyama Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 97
Loc: banana republic
Mthakathi27,
Waze wang'chaza Mthakathi27!!!. Lapha ubengumthakathi wangempela! Wayigwenxa indoda Jazi yatshaya ngomlomo ethuvini ngiyakutshela!

Hk hk hk hk!

omnyama

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#38598 - 06/14/08 11:26 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
omnyama Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 97
Loc: banana republic
Nejana,
Hayibo, indoda Mthakathi ibidlala loJazi, imphica inqondo kuphela. Ingxoxo yabo isukela le, angezeke wayizwisisa uma ungazi ukuba iqhale kuphi. Undoda Jazi udliwe ngeskelemu!

omnyama

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#38599 - 06/14/08 01:24 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27
Jazi
It is difficult to trust a man of your calibre entirely, after having discussed with you for years in this august forum. But i have to say that, i caught you unaware, if you believe what i wrote in that post then you can believe anything. The thing is Mr Jazi, you always ask for evidence even where it would be unnecessary and now i deliberately asked you silly questions and for evidence i did not need and as i expected, you responded just the way i should have responded being asked similar questions. Ubogawula ubheka mfowethu. Nonetheless, i have to say that you are slowly winning me over.
The above post was meant for Jazi and not for Nenjana, i knew it was above nenjana's station. Debating with people like nenjana is just a waste of time, bathathela izinto phezulu, abazi kuthi ngisuka kuphi ngiyaphi.
Jazi i am really surprised that you did not read the intention of my post above.


Mthakathi - to be honest with you I fully suspected what your intentions were.It is self evident from the questions that you asked that contradicted what you wrote in one of the threads about the xenophobic violence in the last couple of weeks or so. I disagree with you when you say that you would have responded in the same manner as I have to your "provocation" I hazard to say that yours would have been nothing more than an emotional outburst in which you would have inevitably stated that I was Shona. What you had instead was a considered and temperate response.
Gukurahundi is not in doubt.
Genocide is not in doubt. What happened in Matebeland then has been documented through both oral history and by organisations such as the CCJP and Legal Projects Center. Even a blind man would be able to see all the evidence amassed. Only a person insane would demand statistics when all is laid bare in front of him. Thus on the issue of Gukurahundi without equivocation I stand shoulder to shoulder with all those that seek justice for the victims- deceased and surviving. This is the position I have taken from day one on this site.

Where and when you start to sing the soliloquy of being side-lined, of being unemployed when there are no jobs, of Shona men impregnating girls at willy nilly, of how the Shona have now taken over Bulawayo in numbers without a shred of evidence in sight other than that of the anecdotal type then that is where we begin to differ. When you claim that you have been denied places at institutions of higher learning despite meeting the selection criteria, again without a shred of evidence then the air shall be filled with our discordant voices as we sing different hymns. When you prosecute your arguments of the marginalisation of Matebeleland without rigour, without evidence (independent or otherwise) in a pedestrian nature all fueled by high emotion then shoulder to shoulder we will NOT stand. When you make these and other claims unsubstantiated but all being trailed as incontrovertible truth I will haunt and hound you with demands of evidence or "statistics" And so to the popinjay delighting on having the tables turned on me, i think you will find that those celebrations are a little too premature!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38620 - 06/16/08 06:32 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Where and when you start to sing the soliloquy of being side-lined, of being unemployed when there are no jobs, of Shona men impregnating girls at willy nilly, of how the Shona have now taken over Bulawayo in numbers without a shred of evidence in sight other than that of the anecdotal type then that is where we begin to differ. When you claim that you have been denied places at institutions of higher learning despite meeting the selection criteria, again without a shred of evidence then the air shall be filled with our discordant voices as we sing different hymns. When you prosecute your arguments of the marginalisation of Matebeleland without rigour, without evidence (independent or otherwise) in a pedestrian nature all fueled by high emotion then shoulder to shoulder we will NOT stand. When you make these and other claims unsubstantiated but all being trailed as incontrovertible truth I will haunt and hound you with demands of evidence or "statistics"


Mr Jazi you claim that if i were had to respond to similar quesyions i posed above, i would have responded in an emotional manner, and you go on to claim that you did not do the same, but what does it mean to insult someone? is that not an evidence of emotionality?
I thought you were being transformed to a freedom fighter, but my deepseated fear and mistrust of you has quickly been answered.
With or without evidence, i have to say that the marginalisation of Matebeleland is a reality, it is not a fihment of my fertile imagination, but a reality for all those who experienced and still experience it today. Mr Jazi please supply me with some evidence that the people of Matebeleland are not sidelined, ostracised and marginalised in Zimbabwe. I hope i do not present as someone emotional, if i do i am sorry, for it's not my intention.


Edited by Mthakathi27 (06/16/08 06:35 AM)
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38621 - 06/16/08 09:43 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Pray thee do tell sir- where exactly did I insult you in my original post? The original post did not contain any insults but you seem to have been taken in by the statement that says the reason for editing was to ?remove insults? There were no insults to remove I merely wrote that as a form of mischief making and you appear to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.
If the following comes across as patronising or condensceding then you have apologies in advance for that is not my intention. The truth of the matter is that we have had this argument before- the one where you demand that I provide you with evidence to prosecute your case. As I have stated before this is analogous to a prosecutor demanding that a member of the jury provide evidence in order that an accused person be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt?? Clearly this is absurd- where on earth have you ever seen that? No sir ? you are making the case for marginalisation, exclusion and sidelining ? the onus is thus on you to furnish the evidence. Thus when Mthwakazi says there was genocide in Matebeleland she is not reliant on the perpetrators of the genocide or on onlookers standing by the sidelines to furnish evidence ? Mthwakazi provides evidence. Evidence which has been verified by bodies without any vested interests. In the same vein when you cry marginalisation and non admission to institutions the question is how many people have been excluded ? is it 10 or 20 is it 200 or 2000 or 200000? When you say girls have been impregnated at willy nilly ? how many have fallen foul of the fellas from the east ? is it 10 or 20 or 200 or 2000. When you state that jobs in Matebeleland are being given to the Shona you must state how many jobs are available in Matebeleland and what proportion of those jobs are occupied people from outside the region when they need not be. No one is asking for figures to the nearest ten or to three significant figures here. When you say that Matebeleland in underdeveloped you must go on to explain how, in country that is regarded as Third world and therefore underdeveloped, whose economy has all but collapsed where poverty and squalor reign supreme, how it is that a region can be said to be without development. You need to show that indicators of underdevelopment are higher in Matebeleland than elsewhere in the country- such indicators as infant mortality rates, mortality rates , literacy, unemployment, poverty and others.
Why is it necessary to do all this- the answer to that is ? credibility. It makes the case more credible and thus more likely to win you converts, sympathy and empathy to your cause.It would also remove doubts and prove that there is no exaggeration. While your evidence remains tenous and anecdotal you will never be able to win converts or sympathy to your cause and you run the risk of being dismissed as a mere simpleton and a fool.
What I hope is apparent here is that I am not saying that there is no marginalisation or sidelining ? all I am saying is how much of it is there and to what extent.

As for being a freedom fighter- I do not believe that the genocide or marginalisation or any other ills real or perceived should form the basis on which Mthwakazi should seek freedom and uzibuse. Whether or not Matebeleland is marginalised is in my humble view not the basis for waging a campaign for freedom. The truth of the matter is that the ills that have be-fallen Mthwakazi do not make her unique and cannot be the basis for people to cry freedom. Am I saying that Mthwakazi should never seek to freedom ? no that is not what I am saying. For me the basis of Mthwakazi or any other nation seeking its freedom is founded in the belief that every man, every nation every people have a right to determine and decide their destiny. Mthwakazi has a right to self determination - not because of marginalisation or any other perceived slights but because it is the right of the people to decide who and what rules them. To tha end Mthwakazi does not need any crutches to lean on in her long walk to freedom. She does not need the crutch of marginalisaton nor that of girls impregnated willy nilly not that of exclusion from universities. No sir no crutch is required just a boldness hitherto unseen.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38622 - 06/16/08 11:14 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Mr Jazi

Once again you have proven that you have moved from where you were, maybe its through my works or other forumites. In the past you equivocally and categorically denied the existence of marginalisation, today you acknowledge its existence but all what you want is its extent. I am not going to dissappoint you here, i will never attempt to be what i am not, the truth is i am not sure of the degree of marginalisation taking place,, but what i know is that the marginalisation is grave.

Quote:
When you say that Matebeleland in underdeveloped you must go on to explain how, in country that is regarded as Third world and therefore underdeveloped, whose economy has all but collapsed where poverty and squalor reign supreme, how it is that a region can be said to be without development. You need to show that indicators of underdevelopment are higher in Matebeleland than elsewhere in the country- such indicators as infant mortality rates, mortality rates , literacy, unemployment, poverty and others.

Even the Shonas do not deny that Matebeleland lags behind in terms of development, to them the lack of it is attributable to the time of gukurahundi which they justify as a conventional war against the so called dissidents. Development is relative Mr Jazi, when a country is said to be underdeveloped it is because it is compared to more developed ones, therefore the development i am talking about is comparative. You can not tell me that a hungry person does not have anything in his or her stomach, it is all relative baba. It is folly for anyone to suggest that due to the current economic turmoil, that therefore the effects of the economic downturn should be experienced equally. Take it this way, who are facing the worst of global effects of price increases of food? Is it not the developing countries? This is exactly the same to what is happening in Zimbabwe today, owing to the limited economic opportunities for the people of Mthwakazi over a long period of time means that the adverse effects of this mega-hyper-inflation are more pronounced in Mthwakaziland. Logic dictates that we do not become over academic about the plight of our people, it is there and obvious for anyone who cares to see.

Quote:
As for being a freedom fighter- I do not believe that the genocide or marginalisation or any other ills real or perceived should form the basis on which Mthwakazi should seek freedom and uzibuse. Whether or not Matebeleland is marginalised is in my humble view not the basis for waging a campaign for freedom. The truth of the matter is that the ills that have be-fallen Mthwakazi do not make her unique and cannot be the basis for people to cry freedom. Am I saying that Mthwakazi should never seek to freedom ? no that is not what I am saying. For me the basis of Mthwakazi or any other nation seeking its freedom is founded in the belief that every man, every nation every people have a right to determine and decide their destiny. Mthwakazi has a right to self determination - not because of marginalisation or any other perceived slights but because it is the right of the people to decide who and what rules them. T


I fully agree with you, if you were man enough you could at least have acknowledge that i have said before that the major determinant for Mthwakazi's cry for freedom is because Mthwakazi is a nation and all nations have a right to self determination, but nonetheless, i acknowledge your dimensional shift and welcome your new, progressive and positive outlook. You allege that Mthwakazi does not need "crutches" to walk, meaning that other factors such as the genocide and marginalisation are inconsequential, i have to disagree with you on that. When you endeavour to execute your programme for emancipation you will find that even these factors come into play, i know what i am talking about.


Edited by Mthakathi27 (06/16/08 11:27 AM)
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38624 - 06/16/08 01:52 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi - you claim that I have always denied marginalisation of Matebeleland. Ngaphi njalo nini? Where and when have I ever denied that this. Would you be so kind as to furnish the forum and the world at large with evidence that proves this slight on my person and character.
On the contrary- I have evidence that I gleefully post below that shows clearly and without doubt wheree I have stood on the matter of marginalisation in Matebeleland. This post was written some five or so years ago in 2003.
http://www.inkundla.net/ubbthreads7olde/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Main/372/Number/5176#Post5178

Just in case you are pressed for time here is an excerpt from that post:-
Quote:
Far from denying the marginalisation of Mthwakazi, I have admitted that there is marginalisation. I have pointed out that the marginalisation is exaggerated partly out of ignorance and partly out of a desire to push the agenda for a breakway state. The logic is simple, if Matebeleland is as marginalised to the extent as has been potrayed here, then it follows that the other regions that have not been marginalised, enjoy a standard of living and development that is far beyond that of Matebeleland. Is this the case Jah Dingani? Do Shona people enjoy a standard of living that is higher than tha of the people in Matebeleland? Is Mashonaland more developed than Matebeleland? For development to take place, it must be fueled by economic growth, by any measure the Zimbabwean economy has not been growing over the past twenty three years- so, Jah Dingani , what has fuelled the development in Mashonaland?


The documents that you describe as important are only so in the eyes and minds of those whose minds do not allow them to look at a bigger and broader picture and thus enable to put things into perspective. The documents are not important- they are not even worth the paper that they are printed on for the following reason- in the light of Zimbabwe's imminent economic collapse what place do these documents hold? Is the economic collapse to be felt more keenly in Matabeleland than in Mashonaland? Unemployment is put at around 70% of the work force - is this figure any hiogher in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. The percentager of people leaving below the poverty datum line is put at 80 - again is this figure any higher in Matebeland than in Mashonaland. What place then, do these supremacy documents hold in the current disintergration of the country?


There you go baba - far from shifting my position it is abundantly clear that nothing other than the sands of time have shifted. So before you set off into an orgy of self-congratulating and back slapping for having made me shift my stand the above quotation re-interates what I have always been saying.

You then go on to state that "even Shonas admit that Matebeleland lags behind" The questions is where and when. Where and when did these nameless and faceless Shonas admit that Matebeleland lags behind. Are these the same faceless Shonas who claim that Mthwakazi is unwashed and uneducated? do you agree with them when they make such claims or do you simply cherry pick statements that support and bolster your arguments? On what grounds and by whose authority do these Shonas make these claims? And because the claims have been made by Shonas should they be taken as gospel?

You then go on to claim that
Quote:
for the people of Mthwakazi over a long period of time means that the adverse effects of this mega-hyper-inflation are more pronounced in Mthwakaziland.


And this I find to be a fantastic statement. Where is the evidence that supports this wild and unsubstantiated allegation My reference to the economy was not with respect to the suffering of the people. Rather as before it was with the question of what fuels development in mind. In 2003 I asked the rabid Jah Dingani what it is that had fuelled development in Mashonaland and not in Matebeleland. I stand corrected but to my understanding development can only be fueled by a sound and growing economy that allows the government to invest in physical infrastructure as well as provide services (hospitals, schools and social security). It is my hypothesis ( and here I emphasize the term hypothesis) that the Zimbabwean economy has never been one that can ever be described as sound or growing or stable. If the economy was sound, stable and growing then why was ESAP introduced in 1990? The economy has never been sound so tshela mina baba what has fuelled development in Mashonaland in the absence of a viable and strong economy? If Mashonaland is as developed relative to Matebeleland then the only arguments hold true - Mashonaland should have higher literacy rates and lower mortality rate. Mashonaland should have higher employment rates? I do not know how long you have been on this forum but many of these are old arguments and sometime in 2004 a contributor called Lobengula wrote a post that cited that literacy rates and infant mortality rates were higher and lower, respectively, in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. You can carry out a search this forum for that post.

As for needing a crutch to hobble to freedom, I insist that Matebeleland doess not need the crutch of a tenous marginalisation that as yet has not been proven, Matebeleland does not need to prop her long walk with genocide - all that she needs is the knowledge that the right to self determination is hers to exert. When you cry jump up and down about being marginalised in country where the majority of the people live in poverty and squalor then you leave people with no option other than to question your sanity.

_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38625 - 06/16/08 04:05 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
You then go on to state that "even Shonas admit that Matebeleland lags behind" The questions is where and when. Where and when did these nameless and faceless Shonas admit that Matebeleland lags behind. Are these the same faceless Shonas who claim that Mthwakazi is unwashed and uneducated? do you agree with them when they make such claims or do you simply cherry pick statements that support and bolster your arguments? On what grounds and by whose authority do these Shonas make these claims? And because the claims have been made by Shonas should they be taken as gospel?


For the first time we have enjoyed a clean debate, without demeaning each other, i appreciate a clean fight. Having said that i have to say that i vehemently disagree with you on a number of issues.
On the Marginalisation of Mthwakazi as i have already said, there is no over exergaration at, the marginalisation is real and extremely grave. Do not ask me for numbers for i do not have them. Just recently, when Tswangirayi visited Impilo Hospital, he was astounded by what he saw, he commented that the effects of the economy are more harsh in Matebeleland because of marginalisation of the Matebele people. Let me once again attempt to explain using a scenario, imagine that the cost of a loaf is $10, and You earn $20 montly and I earn $10 monthly, due to what ever reasons the price of a loaf increases to $15, my earning power decreases to ?5 and your earning power decreases to ?15. From the scenario, it is clear that we are both going to suffer but at least the effects would be better for you because you could still be able to buy bread. The scenario deliberately is simplified.

I think you are missing the point on the economy of Zimbabwe, when Mugabe took over from Ian Smith, the economy of Zimbabwe actually grew, there was positive economic growth. This was due to a number of factors, firstly, the sanctions under the Smith regime were lifted and secondly there was massive capital investment from investors. There was no investment in Matebeleland during that period because of gukurahundi, a political scenario which was engineered by Mugabe for that purpose. In the early 80s to mid 90s, the people of Mashonaland actually massively gained from the fruits of an independent Zimbabwe. This was not the case in Matebeleland. Very few basic infrastructure if any has ever been effected in Matebeleland after the so called independence. But we know that in Mashonaland many dams were constructed, many roads were built, many irrigation schemes were built, not to forget that the financial sector is part of the infrastructure that fuels development, ina Mashonaland they had and still have a well developed financial sector, this reason for this you will be told that "Harare is the capital city". Basic economic fundamentals were present in Zim in the early 80s and this set many Shonas in a better footing than Matebeles.
I agree with Shonas who say that they are more educated than most of us, this is not a matter of cherry picking to bolster my argument, it is a matter of reality. I am not saying that they are educated than you personally. Schools were part of the infrastructure that the people of Mashonaland enjoyed.

Literacy and numeracy levels do not determine the level of an economy or economic activity in a country. I am not going to give you an example of this because i think you know what i mean, but if you insist then i will. If you were in Zimbabwe in the early 80s to mid 90s then you will be aware that, economic deals were signed with many different countries on a daily basis. AID agencies poured their AID in Zimbabwe, where did all the money go to, it is obvious and known that due to the gukurahundi smoke screen, all the money benefited Mashonaland. Even the little revenue that the City of Bulawayo generated benefited Harare, how you may ask, all the revenue generated was taken by the central government and redistributed, the City fathers always complained that the government owed it. Yes, i know, you will say, all the towns and cities' generated revenues was taken to the central government for redistribution, yes, it is true, take it this way, this is purely an example which depicts a real scenario, what used to happenwas like this: Bulawayo will contribute $10 and Harare $20; Gweru $5, Mutare $2 and upon redistribution, Harare will get $25, Mutare $3, Gweru $7 and BUlawayo the remaining $2, who benefits from this scenario?
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38626 - 06/16/08 06:54 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi
Indeed this is the first time that the debate has been clean. I am never the first to cast the first stone.
The greek philosopher Socrates once said Scio me nihil scire; scio nescio which I am told translates to I know I know nothing That sir has long being one of my guiding maxims. I know I know nothing.

Is this the same Tsvangison who is campaigning for the presidency of the ruins known as Zimbabwe. Even a blind man can see and a deaf man has heard the cries of marginalisation emanating from Matebeleland. Little wonder then that along comes Master Roundhead (with apologies and liberties to Charles Mangua) crying louder than the bereaved, his crocodile tears drying up no sooner had he turned his back. To that end I would be inclined to think that Master Roundhead was merely politicking and playing to the gallery telling the people of Bulawayo and Matebeleland what he thought they wanted him to hear. For what its worth, I do not trust him this Master Roundhead on whom everyone has pinned their hopes on. His policies on such issues as what will happen to Mugabe with respect to the genocide in Matebeleland in particular and human rights abuses seem to change depending on which way the wind is blowing.

I know I know nothing

You then state that upon taking over from Smith the economy grew due to massive capital investment but you dein to mention who it was that was investing and in what industries. If anything was there not what is referred to as "white flight" following independence and with it a significant amount of capital? If indeed as you claim that the economy grew, was that money not used to fund free education and health provision for all including Matebeleland with little left over to fund the development of physical infrastructure?

You then go to refer to aid agencies and their pouring in of aid. With respect, since when was the development of a country fuelled by aid? Can a country be transformed beyod recognition on aid and aid alone? How much of that aid found its way to the intended recipients? What of the rampant snouts-in-the trough corruption that was the mainstay of those heady days?

Did the whole of Mashonaland benefit from this largesse or was it pockets within Mashonaland that enjoyed those crumbs that fell their way?

If the economy was going great guns, when in your opinion did things start to go wrong?

By 1990 wasn't employment around 50%, corruption rife, poverty on the increase hence the need for structural adjustment? Square this and other circles for me baba.

How many of those roads that you claim were built then are intact today?

Liteacy and numeracy rate on their own are not an indicator of economic activity- that I will give you. But taken together with other indicators they tell their own story - thus in Rhodesia the evidence of the two tier system of Ian Douglas Smith's illegal apartheid regime lay not in signs that stated Whites only - the white enjoyed a higher literacy rate, lower infant mortality rate, longer life expectancy than the average black man as a result of a two tier system. If as you claim that there was two tier system post independence then that would have manifested itself in the indicators and indices referred to above?
I know I know nothing!

I would like to return to the issue of the crutches on the long walk to freedom. Had there not been any Gukurahundi genocide, had there not been the marginalisation that you claim was broad, detailed and elaborate, would you be here today proclaiming independece for Mthwakazi. Had there been sweetness and light, milk and honey, street paved in gold and coated with diamonds in the post-independent Zimbabwe would you be here today asking Mugabe to let you people go. If you answer those questions with honesty then you will see why I said there is no need for crutches on this long walk for freedom. But then again as Socrates said I know I know nothing.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38627 - 06/16/08 08:38 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
...referred to as "white flight" following independence and with it a significant amount of capital

I agree with you on what you term "white flight", it is true that when Zimbabwe attained its so called political independence that many whites who had invested in Zimbabwe left the country, but it has to be remembered that many more came in to invest into the country. But above that as i mentioned in previous post, the lifting of sanctions meant that world markets particuarly for agricultural produce were open and to a lesser extent of raw-minerals such as gold and other valuable minerals. The tourism industry boomed. The growth of the Zimbabwean economy immediately after independence is not a wild claim but stark reality.
Quote:
...was that money not used to fund free education and health provision for all including Matebeleland with little left over to fund the development of physical infrastructure?

Yes, no sir, i did not claim that Mthwakazi did not get anything from the government or that no investment was ever done in Matebeleland, but my contention is that the investment was neglible and too restrictive. I do not know about where you come from, but where i come from, there was no meaning development ever effected by the government of Mr Robert Mugabe. No new hospital was built, no new clinic was built, there was only one doctor for a vast area, and no new schools were built except rebuilding those which were destroyed during the struggle. And most of the work was done by us and our parents, we moulded bricks we paid what was called building levy,we helped in the actual rebuilding of those destroyed classes. It was our labour, it was through our sweat that we managed to rebuild those schools. In most cases our teachers were not trained, when we starting having trained teachers in our schools most of them were Shonas. I am talking of a rural Matebeleland area.

Quote:
With respect, since when was the development of a country fuelled by aid? Can a country be transformed beyod recognition on aid and aid alone?

Where and when did i allude to that? An economy of a country even of a village is a complex entity, you can not claim that only one factor fuels its growth, the economic factors work together in an intricately intertwinned manner. Therefore AID in developing countries forms one of the strands of development. If AID is managed efficiently and effectively it could help a country to grow, but this is not to say that AID alone transforms economies of developing countries.

Quote:
Did the whole of Mashonaland benefit from this largesse or was it pockets within Mashonaland that enjoyed those crumbs that fell their way?

I don't think that the whole of Mashonaland benefited, i heard of the marginalisation of Karangas and Manyikas. Referring to the economic benefits as "crumbs that fell their way" is an understamentand a bit misleading,for it means that what they received was not meant for them, it just landed on their way by mistake, no, and no again, the distribution of economic benefits was well planned and well orchastrated.

Quote:
If the economy was going great guns, when in your opinion did things start to go wrong?

Right from the beginning, when you see a bus moving from point A to point B, never assume that it is in good condition, ask me i will tell you, i used to board buses that used pieces of wood as their crank shafts.
Quote:
How many of those roads that you claim were built then are intact today?

Very, very, very few.
Quote:
I would like to return to the issue of the crutches on the long walk to freedom. Had there not been any Gukurahundi genocide, had there not been the marginalisation that you claim was broad, detailed and elaborate, would you be here today proclaiming independece for Mthwakazi. Had there been sweetness and light, milk and honey, street paved in gold and coated with diamonds in the post-independent Zimbabwe would you be here today asking Mugabe to let you people go. If you answer those questions with honesty then you will see why I said there is no need for crutches on this long walk for freedom. But then again as Socrates said I know I know nothing.

I doubt very much, the marginalisation and deliberate destruction of Matebele culture means that there is no security for me and for my children. There is no hope for progress. If marginalisation was not there and not affecting me, i am not sure whether i would be as dtermined as i am today. Lack of marginalisation would have meant that our region is recognised for what it is, its aspirations would not be stiffled or denied. We would have our own radio and TV stations, we would have our own unique economic systems, that is we would be allowed to develop the way we want as long as we don't pose any threat to anyone.
Lack of hope fuels the desire to self-determination. As Mthwakazi we have no hope and confidence in that country called Zimbabwe. I am not in anyway trying to crush your crutches argument. But to say the truth if we were treated with respect, i can't see why we should have started agitating for freedom. We were going to be free within Zimbabwe, but that never happened.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38651 - 06/18/08 08:06 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Mthakathi mfo kunjani. phila mina ngisaphila. mfowethu musa ukuzichithela isikhathi sakho ngabantu abangeke bakwenzela lutho. abantu abangenancedo kuwena. abantu abazokuthuka . abantu abafana no jazielindizayo. umbhekisise kahle lomuntu mfowethu. noma ususithi let us have a good old debate avele asho ngenhlamba. umbhekisise mfowethu ngoba yena ungumbhidlizi. awubheke nje ulanda into athi wayibhala 5 years back. 5 years?? ubeyifihle kuphi sonkelesikhathi?

lomuntu uzithi unguMndebele kodwa inkulumo yakhe iyaphikisana nalokhu akushoyo. awubheke nje uthi ukumaginalayizwa kwethu yinto engekho. uvelaphi nje yena ngoba thina maNdebele asisazi nesisodwa isikolo esakhiwa nguhulumeni ka mgabe.

this guy is a phoney. he is not what he says he is and for that alone i call him a corward.come out and say i am a tshona i see things like so and so , we will respect him. but look at him . a wolf in a phoney fong kon sheep skin ukhuluma inyongo. siyahlupheka yena uthi kungasu mgabe kube asizanga e Europe. nyongo yodwa uyabheda nje. ngiyezwa uyamphendula. kodwa uthi uzozwa? ngeke. hlukana naye mfo. kukhona umuntu ocabanga ukuthi abonge umgabe ngoba umenze irefugee? besivele sizoza la esikhona kodwa sasizoza ngokuzofunda nangokuzosebenza hatshi ukuzocela. we have lost all our dignity because of this refugee status and ujazelindizayo says we must be gratefull to mugambe. yinyongo yodwa lendaba yale ndoda mfowethu Mthakathi hlukana naye.

izwa nje uphika nokuthi the zimbambwe economy grew immideately after Ian Smith. the economy grew, fact. then lento yabo yobusela nepotism, downright laziness, nomona kuhlangene nokuziphakamisa umuntu wakhona engcolile enuka amakhwapha, ne simple lack of natural manegerial skill the economy crushed. he can try to defend the failure of the tshona but its public knowledge that they failled to manage the once bread busket of Africa. they are a faillure. the tshona is a failure klaar.

so mfowethu Mthwakazi omuhle qhubeka usibhalele thina Mthwakazi siyezwa ubuhlungu obuzwayo nezingane zakho nezethu. hlukana nje nokuphendulana nomuntu onjongo yakhe yikukucekela phansi nesizwe sakwenu.

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#38664 - 06/19/08 06:10 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Duze
Ngiyabonga ngesaluleko sakho, phila nsizwa yakithi.
I have to say this, in my mind and heart i had told myself that i would never respect Jazi. We seemed to differ significantly, but of late i have realised one or two things that have changed my mind about him. I will state them, as i see them, these things are, his stance towards gukurahundi, he seems to be against the attrocities and he has even gone to the extent of saying that those who were killed were killed for none other than being Ndebele; secondly, he agrees that Mthwakazi must seek her independence, maybe he had proclaimed the same before but as for me, this was his first and i respect that. His only concern is that the reasons that some of us want to use to justify our cause are cumbersome and i agree with him, they are, but i feel they are necessary; lastly but not least, he agrees that Mthwakazi is marginalised but not to the extent that some of us claim it to be, i agree with him on the marginalisation of Mthwakazi but differ with him on the extent of Mthwakazi's marginalisation.

This is the most progressive; the most clean debate that we have ever engaged in, i reciprocate a good debate.
I know how you feel Mr Duze and i respect that feeling because i have been there before.
As for whether Mr Jazi is Shona or Ndebele on that i am sorry i can say anything because i simply don't know. I have met many forumites face to face, but i have not been lucky to meet Jazi.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38696 - 06/20/08 01:57 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
bongani Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 200
Loc: Afrika
uJazi uliswina

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#38708 - 06/21/08 12:16 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Mthakathi nsizwa yakwethu ngiyabingelela. kunjani kodwa. mina ngisaphila mfowethu. ngiyezwa uyakhuluma igama lakho angeke ngaliphikisa ngoba uzibekile izizathu kwacaca. kodwa mfowethu loka jazi yena uhlulwa yini ukukhuluma acace??? njalo yena udungumqondo. la aqhamuka khona udungumqondo. inkulumo yakhe idungomqondo njaloooooo. cha mfowethu sikubonile ukuhlupheka, siyafa siyaphela yena akaboni ngani elibele yikusidungimiqondo??? usekhona uMthwakazi namanje osenamahloni ukuzibiza ngoMthwakazi?? akaze kwayiwa nxanye kungemanzi yebo. kodwa phela inkulumo yomuntu mayicace hayi ukudungana nemiqondo.

aphinde eyise athukane. cha mfo mina lombemi ungidungumqodo. ukuthi naye uzwelana nathi ngesihluku segugulawundi akusho lutho lokho. sebebaningi abesitshoneni abathi babengazi shame siyanizwela. kodwa lokho akusho phela ukuthi basifisela ukuthi sihlale kahle kuMthwakazi wethu. cha. yiboke labo ojazi. baza ngokudunga imiqondo.

asihlanganeni zinsizwa labo abazimiseleyo. sikhohlwe indaba yabantu abazisidunga imiqondo ngesikhathi thina sifuna imiqondo ecacileyo. amaNdebele awakaze ahlale ngokukhululeka. kwaba ngamabhunu. basibandlulula basithwalisa kanzima zafa izingane zabantu. makusuka abelungu kuza amatshona. koze kubenini. kubenini. sigcwele umhlaba wonke sizalela amagangeni. ingane zethu zikhulela emagangeni. nxa kungasayenzanga thina esibasha kokwenziwa ngobani pho??sivele siyafa siyaphela. so manje sihlaleleni. nina boMthakathi yini enifanele ukuhamba phambili niyeke indaba zabo phoney misunderstood jazi. akuhlanganweni madoda kuyiwe phambili baningi asebekhathele. sikhathele.

awubheke nje kwenzakalani kuleliyazwe. amagazi ezingane ezingenacala ayakhala. angeke balungelwe yilutho. even izifuyo zabo zoqalekiswa njengabo.akhalenjalo amagazi abafowethu abafela ize. bebulawa ngamatshona. noma ngazama ukuthi athi siya exajaretha, uyabheda nje.akasibonanga isihluku ngoba wayehleli lekubo la abuyakhona okwaziwa nguye nabakubo. mqaphele mfowethu. mina ngisafisa ukuthi sihlanganeni sikhulume. futhi kohlangana labo abangasenandaba noma kukhona ma cio noma cha. open. sala kahle mfo.

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#38712 - 06/21/08 11:06 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Mthakathi mfethu kunjani. ngisesekuyo lendaba yalendoda yamajazi. kwagama layo nje liletha imifanekiso emibi. izwa nje. jazielindizayo. iningi labotsotsi abashiyani nje namajazi.

ngizinikeze isikhathi sokufunda imibhalo yayo lendoda lapho nibhala niphendulana nikhulumisana. cha mfethu lomuntu akalungile neze. umuzwe nje la athi this marginalization of the Ndebele its there but minimal. ukugcwala kwamatshona kwaBulawayo emisebenzini kungamanga. ukuvalelwa amathuba kwamaNdebele kungamanga. ngempela? uqhamuka kuphi lomNdebele ngempela?

kubuhlungu. ungcono yena ongakuzwayo. hamba manje uye ezibhedlela zonke zasemaNdebeleni uyebheka bangaki ama nurse trainee angamaNdebele. mangaki amatshona? technical apprentices kwaBulawayo. teacher training. yonke indawo.ufuna ubufakazi, nee. ngingabhala kugcwale ihard drive yekhomputha. mina self. ngesikhathi ngiqeda isecondary school ngangifuna ukuba yi technical apprentice. i knew what i wanted in life. ngaqala ukuxhumana na Air Rhodesia about my intended career. i had so much correspondence with Air Rhodesia inqwaba yezincadi ngibuza ukuthi bafuna maphi amasabjecti. into eyayinhle ngabelungu babekwazi ukuphendula. njalo mangibhala babengiphendula.

ngaqinisake ku maths science and engilish. before i finished school kwachincha kwaba yizimbambwe. ngapasa kahle kakhulu ngaze ngazingcoma nami ngathi cha yenzekahle inkunzi emnyama inkomo edla yodwa. kuphi. nga aplaya ngabhliswa amathesti angazi mangaki.amatshona ngaleGrand PLan yayo atshintsha ukuthi amatrainees wonke, ngithi wonke, awathathwe kuhulumeni. if a company wanted trainees it has to go through the gorvenment who will then supply it wih trainee students. private ,gorvenment konke. futhi if inkampani ingatrain itaxwa kakhulu. mfo ngahamba kulendawo okuthiwa yimimosa la esasibhalela khona okunye okuyitest angisakhumbuli kwakubizwani. same thing every week mfo. lomuntu okuthiwa yitechnical officer ukhuluma istshona. lesisitshona esi deep. masiphuma sesiqedile ukubhala uzobona abafana besitshoneni sebemgcwalele bekhuluma ngesitshona sizesihambe. next yingcwadi sorry you did not make the grade. try next time. kwaze kwaphela unyaka mina lo nabafowethu sibhala into efanayo kodwa lutho. abanye bathi kungcono ukuba ngamatemporali teachers sizame while sihola.

kwabanzima kimi lokho ngoba ngangiyizonda kabi kabi lento yokufundisa.ngathi railways bangikhomba emimosa. ngahlala impela isikhathi. ekugcineni ngasengifuna umsebenzi nje noma yimuphi emephepheni. yonke indawo ngamatshona and angisazi even u a. nginguMndebele mina ngikhulele esintwini.akusicala lokho.

mfo ngazengaya kutempolali teaching leyo. ngainteviwa litshona. ngathi ngifika kulesisikolo esisekhaya mfo. ngihamba ngenyawo umangiya ekhaya. kwakuyisikole esitsha esivulwayo.i aphathophu. kungenasikole sifundisela ematsheni sisheya amaclass neprimari. udoti. mfo. ngafika mina ngathola amatshona angu4. amatempolali teachers. ngikhuluma ngakwaMthwakazi impela. ikhona indawo ekhaya esiyibiza kwaMthwakazi ngempela. 4 matshona all unqualified plus nami. 3 of these tshona cant even say a word in Ndebele. kwahlalahlala kweza amanye amatshona ayi2. sesibangaki manje 7. one of these tshonas listen to this, the guy did not even have o levels. wayeselusa izinkomo zika staffing officer. tell me.all these tshonas did not have 5 o levels. all mfo. why would i lie? how do i know. kwafika omunye utisha owayequalified ke yena. kwathiwa akaphathe. kwakungumuntu wesiNdebeleni ke loyo. kwasekufuneka udephuthi. wafuna amacertificatesethu sonke ukuze abe fair ukukhetha phela. zavelakanjaloke izindaba. yimina ngedwa zwi phakathi kwe 7 . ngenziwa udeputy kanjalo.

ngitsheleke ojazi abakwazi lokhu? uyathandabuza ngempela noma udungumqondo nje. kwenziwa konke lokho kuqashana kukhona abanye osisi khona la abangomakhelwane abana7 o level subjects bahleli istaffing officer ithi they are not Grade matirial.

the day engaya khona ku interview ngaya ePlumtree mfo. nanamhlanje indawoyakhona angiyazi.kutanasa mfo okulitshona kungumkhulu osenenwele ezimhlophe. mfo amatshona, angizenzi mangithi ngenhliziyo yami yonke. angiwafuni. safika sibabili nenye intombazane eyayimhlophe nje sihlangana ebhasini siyabuza phela indawo asiyazi. sonke sibuya kwaBulawayo. sasesithe sizomelana after inteview ukuze sihambisane ngoba amabhasi ayehlupha.loyamkhulu mfo wavela wamthatha loyasisi wamfaka emotweni yakhe. ngabona ngemoto isingidlula losisi wabheka phansi ngamahloni. umkhulu gone nalomtwana obezefuna umsebenzi. wangishiya mina. angizange ngambona futhi. loyamtwana wayezokwenza ngempela elambile? so wazilahlela kulomkhulu ngoba efuna ukuba ngu tempolari teacher. this is the kind of our life under the evil racist murderuos tshona. i was left with 2 choices, stay as a tempolari teacher at my age or go join ubaba eGoli. you wont believe this. the first company enga aplayela khona yangithatha first time. when the chief engineer looked at my results he called the office. to use his words mfo wathi, this is the best you can get in south africa. let us get him before other companies snatch him. kanjalo mfo my career stated. i am where i am from there. that wasted time ngidlalwa ngamatshona kube ngiphambili manje. lendaba yalomuntu ujazi ngumbedo nje kwaphela. sala kahle Mthwakazi omuhle onenhlonipho

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#38715 - 06/21/08 12:52 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Duze
Yeyi mfowethu waze wayibhala lendaba yakho, ingihlengezelisa ezinyembezi, ibuhlungu kanti kunjalo iyqiniso ngoba vele iningi lethu ledlule kukho lokho okubhalileyo. Ibuhlungu indaba kaMthwakazi, ibabuhlungu kakhulu uma abanye bethe siyabheda ngalencindezelo ezikhuluma ngayo esiyenziwa ngaMaTshona. Asibhedi sibili, sikhjuluma into esiyaziyo. Sikhuluma ngempilo esayiphila, sikhuluma ngempilo esiyiphilayo. UMthwakazi akalalo ikusasa elikhanyayo kweleZimbagwe. Mfowethu bambisana lezinye insizwa sakheni isizwe. Singesabi ukufa, loma ukubulawa vele isizwe sesibhujisiwe ngamaTshona. Uma besiqeda abavele basiqede sonke kungabi ndaba zalutho mani.
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38719 - 06/21/08 02:50 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Duze Iam loathe to engage in any form of debate with a man who is yet to discover the "caps lock" on his computer and who insists on starting sentences with lower case letters. It is nice to note that you have evolved and are now capable of writting in paragraphs ! Progress! Albeit at a snail pace.

As to your tale of woe above- well sh*t happens. Kusemhlabeni lana njalo lumhlaba uyahlaba. Tough sh*t!! Emotional blackmail and outbursts have little or no place in rigorous and objective debate
Abelungu bayatsho ukuthi one swallow does not a summer make - are your experiences the norm for all people from Matebeleland? Is there no Shona person with a similar tale of woe bearing in mind that lana kusemhlabeni njalo lumhlaba uyahlaba! Tshela mina nqwele - bangaki abantu whose tales of woe are similar to yours - is it 2 or 20 or 200 or 20000. I know you will say that banengi to which one may legitimately ask inani elinengi ngelinganani?
You then go on to bleat after your fashion about the numbers of Shona in educational and other training institutions in Matebeleland- to which I will state an old argument - these are national institutions and the fact that there are in Matebeleland does no neccessarily mean that they should be reserved solely for the inhabitants of the region regardless whether those inhabitants meet the selection criteria or not?
You state, again after your fashion, that these places are full of Shona but you dein to mention what proportion of those students are Shona - is is 100%, 50% , 20% Shona? The same argument can and is applied to ukugcwala kwamaShona koBulawayo
As for the so called Grand plan that to this day still seems to send shivers down your spine given the constant references that you make to it. News flash - that Grand plan is not worth the paper that it is printed on for it has failed to deliver on any meaningfull scale the objectives it set out to achieve. Bophi 'phondo, gcwal' ibhavu and focus on those things that matter most and not some moribund document!

Mthakathi
In one of the posts above you stated that the economy grew post independence and that was what fuelled development in Mashonaland. You also stated either implicitly or explicitly that development occured during the Gukurahundi era of 1982 - 1987.
I asked above and I ask again

  • when did things start to go wrong?
  • why was ESAP introduced if the economy was going great guns


It turns out that you were right that the there was economic growth post independence. One source whose citation I have mislaid stated that the economy grew by twenty one percent. Another source (http://www.newschool.edu/cepa/papers/archive/cepa0121.pdf) states that there was an economic boom but only between 1980 and 1982. The authors of that document state that "the post independence economic boom was unsustainable" Another article that I stumbled across (http://www.jstor.org/pss/722919) - corroborates the notion that the economy grew between 1980 and 1982. However, in the latter article it is stated that by 1984 "many of the gains in equity and poverty reduction had been reversed" This suggests that the economy was no longer growing as much as it was in the first two years of independence. This information casts doubts on your assertion that development n Mashonaland proceeded at full pelt during the Gukurahundi years (1982-1987. While I concede that you were right about the economic boom post independence evidence suggests that the boom was only fleeting and it is my contention that due to the lack of sustainability of a robust and growing economy, the development of Mashonaland was no where near the levels that you suggest.
I can understand why you (not you personally) would adopt a reductionist view- a view that looks at the world and sees things as either black or white. Thus in order to push the agenda for an independent Mthwakazi it is expedient to state that "Mashonaland developed while Matebeleland did not"
You also state that had development taken place in Matebeleland then peradventure you would not be agitating for independence. Again I beg to differ because,first and foremost it is my contention that the little development that took place in Mashonaland was nowhere near enough to result in two-tier state - that is the Shona did not and most certainly do not enjoy a higher standard of living than that of the Matebele. Secondly, if the independence of Mthwakazi is based on the principle of the right to self determination then Mthwakazi ought to seek her independence regardless whether her children's bellies are full or empty. If it is a matter of principle then your principles do not change depending on whether your stomach is full.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38737 - 06/22/08 09:51 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
cabucabu Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Dallas
The grand plan achieved its objectives, all business is now owned by Shona's, even if those business's are not functioning at full capacity the Shona owns them, one day things might be bright and the Shona will be owning everything including izindlu and land in matabeleland, Jazi be truthful to yourself, scholarships are awarded to Shonas, ask people who were at Rhodes and graduated in 1999, Ndebeles all paid for themselves, 80% of the Shona's had government grants and scholarships, wena Jazi stop this nonsense.

Who said you must start a sentence with capital letters, you think this is an english class, it just oMthwakazi discussing, instead of busy looking at grammar maybe you should be looking at reality and discussing reality,

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#38776 - 06/23/08 09:41 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elindizayo kunjani. phila mina ngisaphila. ngiyezwa mfo ufuna ngibhale ngama cappes whatever that is. okusalayo uyezwa. okungixakayo yikuthi kungani njalo wena udungumqondo. uphika into esobala. uvikela ize.ngempela kanti wena ungumhlobo muni. kungani ungaphenduli umbuzo ocace kangaka? if ulitshona then why unamahloni wokusho lokho? uligwala noma ungumkhohlisi? if ulitshona and unamahloni okusho then uligwala. there is no way you deserve respect if you are ashamed to tell the trueth.

bhekala mfo. uthiwena kusemhlabeni .you sound so desparate. there are nations of the world who live a good quality of life. no state sponsored rape, murder, torture and greif. elections and freedom. ungathi ngokwehluleka kwamatshona bese uthi this is the world. no. wena nguwena okufanele utravele kabanzi ubone umhlaba. ezinye izizwe ziyawahlonipha amalungelo oluntu. ubusathane ngobakini le ematshoneni. ungathi kusemhlabeni.

as for your speech about public institutions being for everyone ukhuluma into engasilona iqinisa kwawena uyazi. they should but , but, unembeza wakho uyazi ukuthi if ungumNdebele ezimbambwe awunampilo.

niyahlupha nina bantu ngokuzazisa ngekufunda kwenu. i academic education inhle ngempela kodwa it is not wisdom. thina siyahlukanisa. umgabe unamadegree 14 academically educated but is he wise? so why are you so tied up about spellings and capsules. i am not academically educated like you but i am wise as to know that as a Ndebele my only hope of a life where my human rights will be respected , where my child will have hope, wheremy nation will have hope for survival is to get uMthwakazi free of tshona. not that we do not want tshonas in Mthwakazi. no. kukhona amatshona angafuni nokuzwa ukubizwa ngamatshona. bahlala kwa bulawayo. sizobamela ngabakithi labo. asifani natshona thina. we defend the weak.

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#38784 - 06/24/08 08:27 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Duze
As usual it would appear that you are once again using your backside for thinking and not your brain.
Ukuthathaphi ukuthi ngiyi "academic" ?
Kuphi lapho engilobe ngathi mina ngyi "academic"
As I said before to your sidekick Pentiyang'hlaba uma ngyiyo leyo academic then ngokwami linkukhu zang'kithi. What has that got to do with the price of bread? What has that got to do with ukuba seNkundleni. The truth of the matter is that I have challenged you wild and as yet unsubstantiated drivel and asked you for hard facts. In their place you have provided nothing other than raw emotion. You squeal ukuthi "wonk 'umuntu uyazi" blah blah blah" Well not this person yikho ngibuza ubufakazi.
Like umkhula wakho u Fist of fury (FoF) anyone who dares to question your dogma is a sell out or a British puppet but in your case inhlamba of choice yikuthi uthi "ulishona". Then by some convoluted logic you then aks me ukuthi ngingumhlobo bani ! Why are you asking me questions whose answers you already know? Are you playing stupid or are you simply retarded? I will not bother answering that question for it would appear that you have made up your mind ukuthi ngingu mhlobo bani. Ngingakutsheli 'qiniso lelo qiniso lingephula umoya wakho!

You advice that I should travel widely is simply ridiculous - who says that I have not done so already. Have you rifled through the pages of my passport lately? Like you I have travelled widely but unlike you I have done it with my eyes and mind open.
Opportunities the world over are not carte blanche - you do not always get what you want but kuwena and other louts here when that happens it is because its someone else's fault. So you didn't get into the airforce ngiyaphinda njalo - kusemhlabeni lana and you lomhlaba uyahlaba and you do not always get what you want! Even khonangapho eUK ocatshe khona bakhona abantu who wish to go to Oxford or Cambridge who do not even though they have the neccessary points because places are limited. google the name Laura Spence (sp) if you have time for example.That happens but kuwena its a sinister plot to keep you down. The truth of the matter is that you are fool.
Ngiyaphinda njalo - what proportion of students in institutions in Matebeleland are of Shona origin. For you to bleat that "banengi" will simply not do. Inani elinengi ngelinganani?
As for your drivel about human rights I doubt and seriously so that know what you are talking about- ngaphi lapho engithe amalungelo abantu akumelanga ahlonitshwe? As usual uyawumana kuphela.

As for ukuqala amasentensi ngama capital - kusemthimbeni lana - bonke abanye obaba labo mame baswenkile all dressed in their Sunday best all putting their best feet forward and then..
then beskuthutsha wena not even ugqoke i wovarosi, awuzihluphi lokugqoki 'skindi ubuyu 'hamba ngqunu in you birthday suit.And awulamahloni. Wen' uzojayiva la angithi? Sies man uyangi nyanyisa!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38786 - 06/24/08 10:04 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
nejana Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 53
Loc: mzansi
Ngibulise bandla benkosi, ninjani nonke ekhaya
bafethu angazi kumbe sengizophambanisa kodwa ke ngizimisele ukuba ngikumele lokho. We have a huge problem , yokungavumi ukuthi kulungile ukungaboni ngeso linye(different points of views).Siyisizwe sinje kufanele njalo akuwona umhlola ukuthi singaboni ngeso linye, otherwise if sonke besicabanga ngokufana, then we are heading for disaster.Jazi mfethu indaba yakho nabo bonke abaningi ingathi isuka kude, njalo igxamukela every where even kungadingeki, kanti inkinga yini,ngumbono wakho noma yibunguwe bakho, noma ngokunye okupersonally. Indaba yeMatebeleland vs development,Gukurahundi vs victims, institution vs number of ndebele intakes, indaba le is very sensitive mfoka Jazi ukuthi thats is why abanengi becabanga ukuba mhlawumbe ulishona ngoba ulokudlala njalo ugabaze uma ukhuluma ngayo, you show no pain in it. mhlawumbe uzama uxwayisa uMthwakazi to think out of the box, not to look at causes but solutions. Uma kunjalo ke, you have a very insensitive way of showing it. Uzothola iningi likusola noma ususiza nombono omuhle bavele bathi nangu uJazi uqalile, kanti ke ubesiza nento enganceda isizwe.Ngingazi mfoka Jazi ulwazi lwakho lunganani ngokwabelana komnotho kwelezimbabwe,kunesandla semfene esedlala indima laphayana. Ngiyazi mhlawumbe awungeke uvumelane nami probably look for proof or evidence,of which okwamanje i cant give.
(A)Matebeleland vs Development, yes there very little if nothing at all due to 1:immediately after independence, there was dissident issue, investors were scared and warned to stay away from mat for fear of their lives;2:there were no MP representing the Mat cos the zapu MP were sideline or refer to as supporter of dissident. what ever fund they could request from the govt budget was seen as funding the dissident regime.bebengekho abantu abarepresenter imfuno zabantu bema matebeleland at grass root level.
(B)Gukurahundi vs victim- ngingazi ke Jazi ukuthi ukhulele kuphi kodwa ke buza abantu abavela kundawo ezifana tsholotsho,lupane, kezi,mapisa, halisupi, manama,silobela,even nemzini omkhulu ibyo bebentshontshwa abantu bayebulawa ngundlu. there you must show sensitivity there mngane, ungamane nje uwele,esintwini kulendlela okukhulunywa ngakhona, umane nje uthi bhadla, kuyazila uzobulawa ngabantu.
(C)institutions vs number of ndebele-uyabona ke ibuhlungu ngoba i personally experienced it, eg how can you enrol someone from Murewa at Gwanda zintec ukufundela ubutitsha azofundisa abantwana bakagrade 1 ekafusi engazi no A oyedwa wesindebele, are you going to teach in english?, i dont think so.even ibyo poltech amalecture ayebuya nezihlobo zabo from that far end, not even go thru the process, bahle bangena straight.what happens to the mat scholars and development of the area. izinto zonke lezi zi linked baba,no tertiary training no career, no career no development, thats why they saw it fit to hire people from all over maswinaland, lana bantu bathatha income and go back home and develop there, still nothing happens to mat. lendaba is bigger than you think it involves a lot things interlinked,it has a chain reaction baba. so qhaphela baba imibono yakho mihle kodwa ke lana, i think it is a bit harsh, abanengi bazokubona njengomthengisi, ishona,anything bad. you can be used as any scapegoat.
Mthwakazi nathi lets be accomodative to any critism, it will make us think more and deeply, even to be more considerate.abantu abanjengo Jazi bayatholakala, he can be distructive sometimes, but also helps us to think outside the box,make us check both sides of the story before concluding.
uJazi ukuthi ungumhlobo bani kuyaphica ngoba angasho noma yini ayithandayo, mhlawumbe lithi lishona kanti cha, lithi kayisilo kanti yinkunzi yalo, iyembethe esemvu. so mr Jazi people will judge by what write here in the post, its up to you to prove them wrong or right.
ngiyathemba i was not offensive, if i was, i pretty sorry bafo

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#38789 - 06/24/08 11:59 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
when did things start to go wrong?

You agree with me that the economy actually grew immediately after independence. That was my contention, now you are coming from another angle to justify your equality of opportunity hypothesis. I need you to tell me why was the economic growth unsustainanble? What were the fruits and benefits of the economic boom? Who gained? If an economy is growing at 21% and all of a sudden starts growing at 1% does it mean that the economy is not growing? Would you say the economy is in recession due to the 20% reduction in positive economic growth?
Quote:

why was ESAP introduced if the economy was going great guns
Do you really need to overstate your assertion to prove your point? Me and you know why ESAP was introduced and i also hope you know why it failed dismally, because i do.Therefore i would like you to tell me why it was introduced and why it did not serve its purpose?


Edited by Mthakathi27 (06/24/08 12:10 PM)
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38792 - 06/24/08 01:21 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: nejana]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Nejana- kimi you have not came across as offensive. In the same vein I hope that i do not come across as offensive in what follows.
I do not care one jot how I am perceived - umthengisi or whatever by people I have never met and in all probability am never likely to meet. My raison d'etre here is that of truth telling as I see it without fear nor favour.
Umangizobulawa ngabantu- kuyabe kungaqali ngami. Ukufa yindlela yenyama njalo labo abayabe bethethe umphefumulo wami bazoyihamba leyondlela

You state that I show no pain - esami iskhathi sokuzubuhlungu sesadlula. I am dispassionate for a purpose and a reason and I refuse to let emotion raw and unchanelled blind me. The currency that I deal with is facts- hard facts backed up with evidence. To that end konke okulobileyo I have heard it all before kuleNkundla; my position about the Gukurahundi I have written about in this very thread and others so angazi ukuthi ukuthathaphi ukuhlanganisa loludaba lendaba zama insititution as well as i development.
All your evidence is anecdotal and some of what you write flies in the face of reason:-
Development
You state that investors were scared away - from just Matebeleland? What if any other investment in other parts of the country occured? Who invested and what did they invest in?
What were the needs of the people?
Wasn't education made universal free in Matebeleland as well as the rest of the country post independence?
Wasn't health made universal free post independence?
Did people not have access to free education and health in Matebeleland?
Uyangimangaza Nejana - on the one hand there was no development (to include no universal free education andh health) in Matebeleland but on the other teachers were being imported from Mashonaland to come and teach Grade 1 kids. On the one hand schools in Matebeleland did not have sufficient resources to teach pupils wells but on the other we are told of people in Matebeleland being denied places in institutions of higher leaning. Square that circle for me baba - ngoba it does not make sense- here we have kids being poorly taught in equally poorly resourced schools by poorly qualified teachers but who nonetheless happen to go on and pass the exams set by AEB and Cambridge. However they go on to be denied places for further education Incredible!! Well and trully incredible!!
Institutions- it all boils down to the selectin criteria of those instutions. to me this is a no-brainer. National institutions remain national institutions regardless of their location and to the best of my knowledge the admission criteria was based on having the right qualifications. Are you saying the institutions in Matebeleland should admit people on the basis of their ethnic origin regardless of whether they meet the academic qualifications criteria. Mina mselufu kungagcono ngiyiswele leyo ndawo rather been admitted soley because ngingoweMatebeleland? Well and trully bizarre to say the least!!
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38793 - 06/24/08 02:07 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elindizayo kunjani namhlanje ngane yenkuliso embi yenhlamba.uyangixaka wena mathukana, awunamahloni uma uvele usho into elihlazo amphakathini? ngishilo ngathi uligwala. uhlulwa yini ukusho ukuthi ungumhlobo muni? yini elihlazo lapho?

ngesinye isikhathi you come along as someone who has infiriority complex.very typical of the tshona ngoba bavele nje basibheke singashongo lutho bazizwe bephansi besebesizonda.

as for ama facts okhuluma ngawo yiwaphi caca. ufuna ngikunikeze amanamba amatshona asebenza kwaBulawayo, nenamba yamaNdebele ahleli angasebenzi ngoba kuqhashwa amatshona. uphi umqondo nje lapho? yini nje le oyibuzayo?uthi 70 100, and wena ufuna i axact number.yinyongo yodwa le. mangingathi kuwena abantu bayafa bebulawa yingculaza uzothi ufuna ngikunikeze inumber so that is what you call hard facts osebenza ngayo. shame.
to be honest to me you sound like a tshona. kodwa uhlale usazi ukuthi isizwe sakho samatshona kungenzeka siqalekisiwe ngezenzo zaso ezimbi ezinobusathane phakathi. yonke into eniyoyenza yoqalekiswa nayo. bheka nje namhlnje uhlaba wonke ubheke ihlazo elenziwa litshona. kukhona ukunyanyisa okundlulalokho.ungazama ukusidungimiqondo kodwa awungeke usiphazamise kulendlela yethu yokuyafinyelela kuMthwakazi.asinifuni kanti ni8na nisifunani?

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#38794 - 06/24/08 02:09 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi
No Mthakathi the economy is not in recession it is growing. The questions then becomes -Is the growth of the economy sufficient to fuel development at the level or extent that you imply? Far from changing my angle- it all part of the same line of reasoning. Lest you accuse me of changing my angle - let me state what questions I have already asked and what questions I will ask:
First and foremost was there economic growth post independence?
Secondly is how much of it (the growth) was there?
Thirdly how long did the economic growth last?

Fourthly, when all these factors are taken into consideration (as well as areas that I will explore below) was there enough capacity for the detailed and extensive development of Mashonaland that you claim took place during those dark times.
If the answer to the last questionis in the affirmative, then reason and logic dictate that Zimbabwe harkened back to a two tier system in which the Shona enjoyed better standards of living than the Matebele. If that is the case where is the evidence?

You ask why growth was unsustainable;
According to one of the articles that I cited above the economic boom was not "sustainable on foreign exchange grounds" which led to the government imposing foreign exchange regulation and apparently led to restricted growth of the economy
Secondly it is my contention that the gravy train was being boarded by FoF and his cabal despite the leadership code. Corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, lack of accountability and gross inefficiency all contributed lack of economic.

Why ESAP was introduced
A variety of reasons not least being the need to liberalize the economy and become part and parcel of the global economic village.
Liberaralization, it was hoped, would inject some life into a listless economy. You will recall that by 1990, partly as a result of universal free education Zimbabwe was turning out school leavers in their hundreds of thousands yet the economy was only creating a few thousand jobs a year. If memory serves me well it was something like 100 000 school leavers but only 18 000 or so jobs being created. Thus unemployment was rising again if memory serves unemployment as at or close to 50% ( I stand corrected on these figures
Why did ESAP fail
Geez- where do I start? The reasons for the failure of ESAP can be said to include its half hearted implementation due to inefficiency, corruption and lack of accountability amongst others. There is also the wider contention that these programmes imposed on poor countries by the IMF and WDB were doomed to failure as there are few examples where these programmes have delivered.
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38795 - 06/24/08 02:22 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: duze
Jazi elindizayo kunjani namhlanje ngane yenkuliso embi yenhlamba.uyangixaka wena mathukana, awunamahloni uma uvele usho into elihlazo amphakathini? ngishilo ngathi uligwala. uhlulwa yini ukusho ukuthi ungumhlobo muni? yini elihlazo lapho?

ngesinye isikhathi you come along as someone who has infiriority complex.very typical of the tshona ngoba bavele nje basibheke singashongo lutho bazizwe bephansi besebesizonda.

as for ama facts okhuluma ngawo yiwaphi caca. ufuna ngikunikeze amanamba amatshona asebenza kwaBulawayo, nenamba yamaNdebele ahleli angasebenzi ngoba kuqhashwa amatshona. uphi umqondo nje lapho? yini nje le oyibuzayo?uthi 70 100, and wena ufuna i axact number.yinyongo yodwa le. mangingathi kuwena abantu bayafa bebulawa yingculaza uzothi ufuna ngikunikeze inumber so that is what you call hard facts osebenza ngayo. shame.
to be honest to me you sound like a tshona. kodwa uhlale usazi ukuthi isizwe sakho samatshona kungenzeka siqalekisiwe ngezenzo zaso ezimbi ezinobusathane phakathi. yonke into eniyoyenza yoqalekiswa nayo. bheka nje namhlnje uhlaba wonke ubheke ihlazo elenziwa litshona. kukhona ukunyanyisa okundlulalokho.ungazama ukusidungimiqondo kodwa awungeke usiphazamise kulendlela yethu yokuyafinyelela kuMthwakazi.asinifuni kanti ni8na nisifunani?


Duze
Uyaphinda njalo! Ngasekuqaleni uthi ngiligwala ngoba angifuni kutsho ubuhlobo bami. Then uthi "honest to me you sound like a shona" Ungibuzelani umbuzo impendulo yakhona ukhanya uyazi?? Bakuthengile yini ukuthi uveze ukufiphala lobuwula obunje?
_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38800 - 06/24/08 05:56 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Quote:
... was there enough capacity for the detailed and extensive development of Mashonaland that you claim took place during those dark times.

I just don't get it, in your pains to defend the development in Mashonaland that you know it took place, you throw all the keys of principle and over-exergerate and misreprepent my statements. I am not sure where you got it from, that i said that the development in Mashonaland was phenomenal and of monumental proportions. I did not say that, all i said was that post independence the economy of Zimbabwe grew and this aided the selective development of Mashonaland. I am surprised at your assertions at times, you agree that there was/is marginalisation of Ndebeles but you don't say how and why. Let me try to drum this in your head, any deliberate move to sideline a people based on their ethnic belonging is undesireable, those who are denied the opportuities of life feel the pain. That is exactly the reason why the millions of death at a far place does not affect you as much as death of a single close person. The rate or degree (quantity) of marginalisation is inconsequential, what matters are the effects of the said marginalisation, be they real or perceived.
You deny the extent of marginalisation suggested by people on this forum but you fail to back your argument with hard facts. Prove to us with hard evidence that our facts are wrong. What is the degree of marginalisation or to make it more attractive to you, what is the level of un-marginalisation?

Quote:
You will recall that by 1990, partly as a result of universal free education Zimbabwe...

This was the government policy, with good intentions and probably it benefited others. This notion of calling Mashonaland Zimbabwe is akward and queer, it is a lie that there was universal free education in zimbabwe. I made it clear to you that in my area, we moulded our own bricks for schools, built our own schools with our own hands, paid school (building)fees, to buy building materials such as windows, roofing etc. Are you aware that after independence some of us had no books, we learned how to write on the sand. Is this what you call universally-free-education?
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38802 - 06/24/08 07:30 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Mthakathi
It would appear that we have come full circle - back to the point where you demand that I furnish you with evidence to support your arguments!!
Who between the two us is arguing without hard evidence and facts? I have argued here that had Mashonaland received the level of development that you imply was detailed, advanced and comprehensive then that would have manifested itself in the Shona having a higher standard of living. The indicators of a relatively higher standard of living include, but are not restricted to, literacy rates, infant mortality rates and life expectancy. There is no such evidence. Indeed literacy rates and mortality rates appear to be higher in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. This flies in the face of the argument of Matebeleland not being developed. Read the following post by one forumite. This was posted in 2003.

Originally Posted By: Lobengula
Jazi

Like I said while researching population statistics for our debate, I constantly came across documentary evidence which strangely suggests the probability of a higher standard of living in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. I hereby draw your attention in particular to literaracy levels which show that Mashonaland Central has the lowest literacy level. Matebebeleland South has the highest efficiency rate (very few drop outs). Also look at the infant mortality rates., quite interesting indeed. Bulawayo and Harare are almost at par with literacy levels of 95% and 96% respectively. This dispels the myth held by many that people in Matebeleleland are less educated than their Shona counterparts, thereby raising the question of why then are we excluded from both jobs and higher education. By providing this research material , I want to demonstrate to you Jazi that when we engage in debates we are interested in the truth, nothing but the truth. We seek to interrogate issues until facts are separated from nonsense.
The following is a compendium of evidence I gathered. I provide it in good faith and this must not be exploited by those who seek to perpetually exclude us from the economic cake ( or crap?) by advocating for a reduction on meagre supplies we are receiving from this regime.

www.unesco.org
6.4.2 Adult Literacy Rates by Region
At provincial level Harare had the highest literacy rate of 96 percent followed by Bulawayo with 95%. This may be attributed to the fact that Harare and Bulawayo are almost 100% urban. Mashonaland central had the lowest literacy rate of 75%. In each region the proportion of literate males was higher than that of females.

www.unesco.org
6.2.6.5Coefficient of Efficiency by Region and Gender
In most regions there were disparities in the coefficient of efficiency and this was in favor of boys. This indicates that for girls there is a lot of wastage due to dropouts. There were several disparities among regions with Manicaland region recording the highest chances of wastage. Matebeleland South recorded the highest efficiency rate. Efficiency rates above 100% recorded in Matebeleland South may be due to unrecorded drop-ins into the school system.
Table 6-27 Adult Literacy Rates by Region and Gender. 1997
Male Female Total
Manicaland 90.16 81.01 85.13
Mash Central 82.21 68.48 74.98
Mash East 89.96 81.66 85.41
Mash West 87.41 76.30 81.70
Mat North 83.65 74.36 78.64
Mat South 86.22 78.49 81.77
Midlands 90.67 81.11 85.56
Masvingo 88.58 79.91 83.70
Harare 96.91 95.08 96.02
Bulawayo 96.06 94.66 95.36
Zimbabwe 90.3 82.11 85.97

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Population density and spatial differentials in child mortality in Zimbabwe.

Root G.

Department of Geography, University of Liverpool, U.K.

Large regional variations in under-five mortality exist within many sub-Saharan countries. Population density as a potential explanatory factor for these regional variations has seldom been considered despite it being implicated as a determinant of mortality at other spatial scales. In Zimbabwe, the "Ndebele provinces"-Matabeleland North and South-have significantly lower levels of under-five mortality than the other ("Shona") provinces. This regional differential is explored using the Zimbabwe Demographic and Health Survey and census data. Factors other than population density that may contribute to the differential are examined. After controlling for the effects of potentially confounding socio-economic, demographic and environmental variables using Cox regression models children aged 1-4 yr living in the Ndebele provinces continued to have a level of mortality 45% lower than their counterparts in the Shona provinces. The possibility that regional variations in health care provision and/or cultural factors contribute to the mortality differential is also examined and rejected. Population densities in the Ndebele provinces are of a far lower order than in the Shona provinces. The main causes of child mortality in Zimbabwe in the time period under consideration were diarrhoea, ALRI, measles and malaria.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Re-examination of recent trends in under five mortality rates in Zimbabwe: evidence from the ZDHS, 1988.

Bah S.

Department of Sociology, University of Zimbabwe, Mount Pleasant, Harare.

Prior studies on infant and child mortality in Zimbabwe have questioned the low mortality found in Matabaleland South. It was suspected that it could be an artefact of data. Using the ZDHS data, this study has shown that the probability of dying before age five (q(5)) is indeed low in Matabeleland South. Also while all provinces experienced a temporary rise in mortality in the 1980's that of Matabeleland was experienced over the period 1980-82, a period marked by political turmoil. In the mid 1980's when things had normalised, mortality in Matabeleland South experienced a decline while other provinces experienced a temporary rise in q(5).
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Disease environments and subnational patterns of under-five mortality in sub-Saharan Africa.

Root GP.

PIP: This study examined the subregional spatial distribution of child mortality risk (CMR) in sub-Saharan Africa. Data for maps were obtained from Demographic and Health Surveys in the 1980s and 1990s for 95 provinces..
East/Southern Africa had the following patterns: low mortality in all of Zimbabwe, except Manicaland and Mashonaland Central provinces. In East/Southern Africa, mortality differences were due to differences in intensity of malaria transmission.


I will not labour the point about who between us is arguing without hard evidence. So tshela mina baba how did the development of Mashonaland manifest itself?

The reference to universal and free education was with reference to the colonial dispensation - blacks had restricted access to education; a form of culling of black pupils occured after seven years of education and again after two years of secondary education (JC. That definately changed after independence hence affording you the opportunity to learn how to read and to write.

If marginalisation is perceived and not real then any resulting pain is self-inflicted. If marginalisation is perceived and not borne out by facts or evidence in order to push an agenda for a separate state then that push is based on a false prospectus. If marginalisation is perceived and not real and used to create a separate identity of self is any small wonder that that edifice collapses as soon as it is closely scrutinised.

_________________________
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#38804 - 06/24/08 08:58 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Jazelindizayo]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Jazi elidizayo ngiyabonga mfo . usungiphendulile. ngizwile . uqinisile ukuthi impendulo vele ngiyayazi. kodwa yini manje unamahloni nobuzwe bakho? awuwedwa mfo nibaningi eninamahloni okubizwa ngamatshona. kwamina nami ngilitshona vele bengingaba namahloni okuzibiza ngomhlobo onje. onesihluku esibi. obulala izingane namakhosikazi. izenzo zenu sorry angithi izenzo zamatshona zihlasimulisa umzimba. zimbi .kodwake wena hlala la umamele ufunde ubuntu.

as for trying to say the Ndebeles are not disfranchised e zimbambwe, sorry ngoba a lot of people as long as you are Ndebele you would have witnessed it first hand, personally hayi indaba yokuzwa njengawe oprotected by being tshona.

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#38826 - 06/26/08 07:11 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
Mthakathi27 Offline
Nduna

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 323
Loc: Canada
Jazi

Before moving on i would like to ascertain a few things, do you understand the political implications of the economic demise? Do you understand the political implications of marginalisation? When did Mr Mugabe begin to be a dictator? When did the marginalisation of Mthwakazi start?

If you honestly answer these questions then i can see us moving forward?
_________________________
Ngingumthakathi wezigodo, umkhunkuli, angibhenyelwa nsangu mina, lizowukhomba olotshwala.

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#38840 - 06/26/08 10:07 PM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: Mthakathi27]
duze Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 299
Loc: uk
Mthakathi mfethu kunjani. phila mfo mina ngisaphila.we mfo, lendeba yalombemi ujazi sokungathi ngiyayizwa.ujazi lo litshona uqobo. uyamuzwa inkulumo yakhe . uthi akazi ukuthi amaNdebele ancindezelwe kangaka. uthi into yokuthi emetshoneni kunedivelopment kunasemaNdebeleni akusilona iqiniso. kube yena ubeshilo ukuthi ulitshona ekuqaleni besizommamela sizwe ngaye ukuthi kunjani le kwelamatshona. uyazi ngempela ukuthi lendaba yabomgabe kusutha labo nalabo abaseduze kwakhe.
thina sithi okulitshona konke kuyefana. kodwa yena uqonde ukusitshela ukuthi cha bo kuyahlutshekwa le kwelamatshona. singathathi ukuthi ngoba beculana nomgabe bonke bahleli kahle.

uthi imortality rate ingcono ngapha kwelamaNdebele kunasematshoneni. unolwazi olunzulu ngendaba zasesitshoneni. ukhona umuntu wesintwini owazi izindaba zesitshoneni kangaka?

uqonde ukuthi asitshele ukuthi cha bo, kwathina matshona asitholanga lutho ngalomgabe. siyahlupheka ningasiboni sinje. yena ngempela uza nendaba. kungani amatshona engakusho kucace ukuthi bantu besiNdebeleni nathi sifana nani ngokuhlupheka. basho nokuthi bamephi ngeGrand plan? bayahambisana nayo noma yinto yabomgabe? basho futhi ukuthi bamephi ngegugulawundi? ngoba ngempela uquqaba lwesitshoneni alwazi lutho ngalendaba. kodwa silence means agreement angithi.

ujazi akame ukuzifihla aphumele obala ngoba ngempelaindaba yakhe uma iliqiniso, cha yisimanga phela lesi. kanti thina siphila impilo engcono kunamatshona!!!!.phoke bavumelani ukusetshenziswa ngababulali osathane? mhawumbe kungahamba labababulali, osathane, izinto eziqalekisiweyo singaphinda sizwane namatshona. bangasibangisi bavumelane nathi ukuthi sibenoMthwakazi wethu.

ngempela kudala, futhi not kudala mani, manjemanje ngikhumbula sasithenga ingoma zesitshoneni sizijayiva kodwa singezwa lutho ukuthi zithini.basibulala basihlukumeza. namhlanje ungayidlala ingoma yesitshoneni? ungalinga? uzwa khupha khupha mthengisi. bafake nenhlamba nenhlamba. asisazifuni singazifuni.

nango ujazi uyadidiza kazwakali uthini. kungani angasho nayn nayn ukuthi madoda inengi lethu matshona asazi lutho siyasetshenziswa nje.sizilambele nje.siyazihluphekela nokwenza. kungakhulunywake ngoba thina asingeke siphilekahle uma singafezanga iphupho lethu lokubanoMthwakazi ongahlangene nezimbambwe.akuzifundisise indaba zalomfo.


Edited by duze (06/26/08 10:14 PM)

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#38842 - 06/27/08 01:13 AM Re: Saphel'isizwe iUnited Nation ibhekile, [Re: duze]
MTHWENTWEHLABA1 Offline
Nduna
**

Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 360
Loc: UG
Sakubona Duze
Impilo ende kuwena lomuzi wakho.
Makuvunyelwa yinkundla ukuthi ngehlukana lombono wenkuzimalanga ezinjengawe. Phela abantu abanjengawe lingoqanda, kumele liphathwe kahle njalo ngenhlonipho. Angikaze ngimuzwe loyedwa laekhaya ozimisele ukuthi afake okuyizinto ngaphansi kwamakhwapha iloba abophele amabhanti abeseyathenga iskali samasese embare, kugcwele kwamnyama kwathu tshu ngeshona. Azendlalele nje atshiyane leoxygen. Khona nje ngeqiniso ngiyelekelela kokutshoyo.
Ungavumi uqanjelwa amanga ngo jazi. Akuhlutshekwa le empumalanga ngitsho lakancane. Luswazi lukasmakade nje kuphela. Kusiyangabo ngabaphakathi komhlane lembeleko. Manje ukufeza kwabo okukhaliphe kangako kwaze kwaphica izaphu, kungenelwe yingonyama yakwaJudah.
Tell me jahelidala how you can afford to carry out population studies, mortality rates in particular abantu bebola emamortuary lezindlini, ngoba amamortuary egcwele ephuphuma? Awukwazi wena ukuthi umuntu utshona lamhla abekwe kusasa ngenkinga yespace emortuary?
Uquqaba lwesishoneni lungabe lungazi nge GP BUT AMAEFFECTS AYO ARE EVIDENT TO ALL.
Uyazi umqondo lo othi I want to be different from everybody else, I want to have my own mind , I dont want to be affected by mob psychology. Ukuthanda nje ukuzibonakalisa, yibo ojazi laba. While its good to be always objective it does not mean that every time one has to disagree with others. It is bad to agree with other people s opinions for the sake of it, it is equally bad to disagree just for the sake of it. One cant be right from jan to dec and the majority wrong from jan to dec , vele akuyenzi, never will it do in any generation. The human mind is made basically out of the same material and quality.
Ukuzwana lamashona forget. There has always something strange with them noma nje sisebancane. Something just not right with them, something not quite right, ongakutholi kweminye imihlobohlobo njengoba nje sehlukile kwaMthwakazi.
Okwezingoma zabo zabuya labo bhudas bevela empini zonke nje lezakubo Zaire. Angikhumbuli mina ngigida eyesitshoneni before independence.
_________________________
HLABA-1-AT A TIME

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