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#39618 - 08/18/08 03:12 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: mpumelelo101]
welly Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 05/16/07
Posts: 132
Loc: UK
Well I suppose the whole thread has got me off guard. I need to rethink how to put my thoughts across. My intention was not to go into all the thinking outside Theology that is the study of God. I prefer we examine the things about God that we can deduce both from creation and Logic. Then we verify those things by Logic on the basis of fact or fiction.

The dating of creation by scientific study is not fact its an assumption with assumed variables hence not fact. The bible dates creation to approximately 5700 years and still counting. The bible states also that God has fixed a date he will destroy creation and create it anew.

Will think again and respond to view points.

Ngiyaboga banewethu keep the facts and fiction states coming.

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#39627 - 08/19/08 09:15 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: welly]
Sibakhulule Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 13
Loc: South Africa
Salobonani bakithi.
I must say that this topic has been one of the most interesting so far. I think genetic engineering is ok as it helps us understand and even reverse some of the conditions that some people are born with, like the Downs' syndrome and other degenaretive diseases including Alzheimer and Parkinson's disease. These conditions come as a result of things not going well genetically during growth and development. Scientific advances (genetics in this case)have resulted in us reversing some of "nature's" mistakes.
However things do not go down well with me when people start to talk about human cloning. Is there a need for scientists to create another Mgabe or even Mandela for that matter. Whose soul will this 'new' person have? If its the same soul then does it mean we are now on the verge of being immortal beings? Death will be meaningless! Amadlozi or God angathini kodwa?
If genetic engineering is done for the benefit of the human being, the better. I mean we can produce more food that is not only delicious but nutricious and even contains antibiotics and who knows maybe vaccines against HIV.
Believe me, some of these will be possible in the near future.

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#39630 - 08/20/08 06:25 AM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Sibakhulule]
mpumelelo101 Offline
Ngqwele
*

Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 170
Loc: durban, south africa.
my man if you are a religious person be very afraid ngoba a bio-tech tsunami is on the verge of being unleashed. not only will we be able to design babies and "create" new living organisms by manipulating genes men will get pregnant and give birth!! the era of "nature" is about to evaporate into thin air!!
_________________________
those who don't use their freedom to fight for their freedom will lose their freedom!!

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#39651 - 08/22/08 01:40 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: mpumelelo101]
Sibakhulule Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 13
Loc: South Africa
FICTION; Size does not matter!
TRUTH; Size does matter!

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#39652 - 08/22/08 01:42 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: mpumelelo101]
Manyathela Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Zim-Parliament
Originally Posted By: mpumelelo101
my man if you are a religious person be very afraid ngoba a bio-tech tsunami is on the verge of being unleashed. not only will we be able to design babies and "create" new living organisms by manipulating genes men will get pregnant and give birth!! the era of "nature" is about to evaporate into thin air!!


Hi guys, I hope you all are doing well. Mina ngiphilile noma-nje ngidiniwe. Ngiyakuzwa Mpumelelo, while what you are saying is possible and likely, there is the issue of bioethics. I believe while there is a whole lot of possibilities, there is a limit to what we can do and remain with a clear conscious (collectively). The era of &#8216;nature&#8217; cannot evaporate into thin air; it will remain our starting point.

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#39670 - 08/24/08 04:07 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Manyathela]
Emz Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Diaspora
I have been following this thread with both keen and kin interest. Let me hasten to say, it's one of the best upon which we have descended, simply because it engages both the faith based and the fate based i.e religion vs science or evolution vs creation, and bettermost this thread sidelines the politician for a while. lami ngizalinga ukuphosa okuluvana kwami, as usual, with respect and without fear.

Brother Welly has unwaveringly distinguished what is fact from what is fiction, and the question is, what is the truth? I sincerely believe that you intentionally and purposefully separated truth and fact on this topic.

BIBLICAL TEACHINGS Vs GENETIC MORDIFICATION]

1. "Playing God
"

First and foremost, the person(s) who first used this particular phrase on this thread, take no offence, i'm handling the phrase from it's general usage. When i come across this phrase in science modules, i can't help it, but burst out loughing. on previous pages they claim we are a product of fate and chance, there is no God, we evolved, and when they start dealing with genetic mordification they claim to be playing god, how then does one role play the non-existant?

2. Scientific creation vs God's Creation

I think the word creating or creation has been used, misused and abused wishfully by the science world. when God created He had no matter to manipulate or mordify, He began with nothing and ended with the universy. however scientists are claiming to be playing god by creating new species, when in essence is by manipulating or mordifying God's creation, to me there is a big gap, we can only seek to understand and unlock God truth hidden in the universy with infinite possibilities, we can't play God. when it comes to life , independent from existing life as we know it, if science brings it's own living organism, i'll come and worship science because only God can give life, and for that matter i worship Him.

Clonning

this is the most feared might be scientific achievement, in Christendom. the biggest question is whose soul will the look-alike being possess? will they go to heaven upon their death? will they be within God's budget? and so on. i know my biblical understanding on the so-called souls will sound not only eccentric but very derogatory to assumed human suprimacy above other organisms.

to calm the fears of most Christians, clonning is still in it's primary stages when it comes to humans, stem-cell research got a knock on the head in South Korea, one leading researcher falsified his team's findings, removing some years of hope.

Biblically speaking, humans do not own any souls, humans are living souls, that is if, and only if the God's natural equation is still balanced i.e DUST + BREATH OF LIFE =LIVING SOUL. the breath of life belongs to God and it is uniform across creation the one in a dog is exactly the same as the one in humans, upon death it goes back to the source not as anybody' but breath of life and the dust belongs to the earth. hence upon the second coming Jesus will have to revitalise the same dust from the grave with the ruahi or the fire, the breath of life. When he raised Lazarus from the dead He does not gaze into the heavens where the good like Lazarus are suppossedly go upon their death, but rather he goes to the tomb and ask him to come forth, and he did.

scientifically speaking, every cell, organelle, organ and finally organism, respect the creation equation, therefore any stage in life, save for organism level, is not you , meaning your arm can be given to someone, your kidney, your sterm-cell. even if the new being look's like you, your clone or the clone, he is not you and he must respect the above equation, my hommie w'd 've said, "tha nigga ain't m'". if they want to reproduce me they'll have to replicate not only my genes, which they hope they'll be able one day, but my entire environment for the past 92 years, which is and has evidently shaped my being, and may be use a super machine to upload my memory on the new dude.

therefore, personally i don't see any religious concerns as far as clonning is concerned, if it will ever happen to humans God w'd have allowed it, if not it will remain what it is, wishful thinking, i don't see any wrong doing in trying, the Al-chemists tried whatever they were called, even if their quest failed they left us some useful knowledge.

i strongly and sincerely believe that science and God are in complete harmony, only that some scientists have used the discipline as tool for their rebeliousness and demonic ends. science is nothing other than the quest to understand the operation of God's natural laws. if any branch of science is more than that, i'd love to study it.

lak'sasa.
_________________________
maturity is of the mind, not of age, however, the magnitude of one's experiences is a function of age.

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#39677 - 08/25/08 10:11 AM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Emz]
mpumelelo101 Offline
Ngqwele
*

Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 170
Loc: durban, south africa.
on playing "GOD"you should have realised that the GOD is normally in quotes, scientifically it is used hypocritically, to reinforce the FACT that actually it is scientifically possible to create something more like what "GOD" is believed to have done but science goes a step further by creating proper beings ie by understanding genes we can isolate harmful ones and stop degenerative diseases from passing to the next generation which "GOD",through "natural"creation has failed to do in over a billion years of life in the universe!!
_________________________
those who don't use their freedom to fight for their freedom will lose their freedom!!

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#39693 - 08/28/08 01:48 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: mpumelelo101]
welly Offline
Ngqwele

Registered: 05/16/07
Posts: 132
Loc: UK
As usual emz you have spoken well. To be true I was without words quite unusual and did not have a clue as to what to respond to and how. I totally agree being a scientist does not in anyway challenge God or make one God either for they only deal with what has already been created. Surely are our mothers gods when they cook and come up with new recipies, or btanists when they repoduce new varieities of roses. Yes even humans have attempted to reproduce new species with very little success like cross between a donkey and zebra produces a sterile mule which can never be further crossed. Some genetic modifications even produce lethal combinations and it is science on a razor edge so to speak. Non of this as you have pointed out Emz has anything to do with torpedoeing faith in Christ as the substitution for our sin problem.

For Christ himself is the truth and life for he is the creator and holder of all knowledge.

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#39706 - 08/29/08 11:26 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Manyathela]
Zwangendaba Offline
Nkosi
***

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1399
Loc: New York, New York, USA
Bafowethu.

Imnandi li ndaba.

Ngicindezele>>>> Mina ngikholwa iTheistic Evolution mfowethu.<<<<ngime ukucindezela.

MANYATHELA, kuyini i "Theistic Evolution?" hk hk hk hk.

Li Zwangendaba.

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#39713 - 08/30/08 07:04 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Zwangendaba]
Manyathela Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Zim-Parliament
grin grin Zwangendaba,ususenza iMischief!

ngum'bono nje othi inkolo le Evolution akuphikisani. Thina abantu yithi esingafisa ukuthi sikwehlukanise. Phela ukuthi things evolve akutsho ukuthi azidalwanga nguMdali, kutsho ukuthi wazidala with the intrinsic (ku DNA) ability to evolve. ngalokho-ke njengekholwa, ngiyazi ukuthi izidalwa ziya evolva kodwa hatshi ngendlela abayibeka ngayo ama atheist. Organisms have no ability to evolve from one species or genus in a certain kingdom to another in a different one. Cha, ngiyala. If that&#8217;s how we evolved, why don&#8217;t the geneticist, cell biologists, physiologists etc team up and try to prove that by accelerating evolution of, say, a bacteria into an elephant for instance? Or if an elephant seems to be too complicated, lets say from bacteria to impolompolo? confused Or into a novel organism that wouldn&#8217;t be classified under any known class of organisms?
Yikho mfowethu ngisithi mina umbono iTheistic evolution yiwo engilawo.

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