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#39722 - 08/31/08 10:05 AM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Manyathela]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
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Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Manyathela
I have never understood how and why scientists should have to "prove" evolutionary theory by the creation of an organism ex exordium. Asuming that they could, what would they then do with this newly created organism- what purpose would it serve? The science that we see today is primarilly concerned with improving the lot of man. I doubt if the creation of an organsim ex exordium would achieve this!
If God did indeed created the world and everything in it then it follows that all the organisms that God created had defined characteristics and abilities. That is when God created an organism such as a bacteria he did not give it the ability to make for example insulin. However throught genetic engineering a bacterial cell can be made to produce insulin in gram quantities. Maize and soya plants as God created them did not have the genes for pesticide resistance yet today it is possible to impart such characteristics to these and other plants through what is loosely referred to as "cloning"(There are different types of cloning!) Today you could if you wanted choose the gender of your baby when previously you could not. To that end what these preceeding examples show is that at some level man is playing God
Your challenge to scientists to create an elephant from a bacteria is a somewhat empyt one. This is because you have ignored one of the basic tenets of Darwinian evolutionary theory- chance or perhaps more scientifically random mutations in the DNA of the organisms that then result in that member/s of the species having a competitive advantage over others. Because the mutations are random i.e cannot be predicted and purely left to chance it means that scientists would find it nigh impossible to achieve the task that you have set them.
Secondly you state that you are believe in theistic evolution but you then go on to dispute the origin of the species from one common ancestor.Indeed in one of your earlier posts you assert that evoulutionary theory is a fiction!! Rather than a theistic evolutionist you sound more like a creationist with leanings towards intelligent design! Indeed you assert in that same post that creationism is fact. Phumela egcekeni mfethu - uyi creationist oro uyi theistic evolutinist?
I concur that theistic evolution offers an "escape" route that alllows compatibility between science and religion (specifically Christianity). It has been suggested that the level of order, organisation and beauty of life at the molecular level is simply stunning to have been a happy accident. The theory of evolution and the bible can thus be viewed as answering two different questions; HOW and WHY respectively
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Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

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#39726 - 08/31/08 12:37 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Jazelindizayo]
dubelamadube Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 21
Loc: gibixhegu
well said!but i don't see how theisic evolution is an escape root when the bible claims the world is around 5000 years old whereas scientifically the earth is 6.5 billion years old!!oro does it refer to the jewish world as being 5000 years and the rest of the unchosen people's world as 6.5 billion?
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#39729 - 08/31/08 01:47 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: dubelamadube]
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
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Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Originally Posted By: dubelamadube
well said!but i don't see how theisic evolution is an escape root when the bible claims the world is around 5000 years old whereas scientifically the earth is 6.5 billion years old!!oro does it refer to the jewish world as being 5000 years and the rest of the unchosen people's world as 6.5 billion?


This goes back to the two questions of WHY and HOW. Why because God saw that it was good and how -through the process of evolution. Thus the claim of how old the world is ceases to be an issue since it becomes accepted that the bible is not a literal or historical account of how old the world is but rather it explains why the world was created but not how. The how part is then accounted for by the Darwninian theory of evolution.
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Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong

Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

A mind is only useful if it is open

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#39730 - 08/31/08 02:18 PM Re: FACT, TRUTH OR FICTION [Re: Jazelindizayo]
Manyathela Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Zim-Parliament
Jazi, sawubona mfowethu. Ngithemba uphilile labanye bonke la enkundleni.
Jazi bengingathanda ukuthi break down your post besengiphendula one issue after the other. Unfortunately angisoze ngenelise ngenxa yesikhathi.
Firstly, I must point out that I agree with some of the things you wrote ngoba phela they are basic facts.
I actually took into consideration the chance you are talking about. Random mutations can be induced and different artificial conditions can be set or created. This is why I said why can&#8217;t they come up with a novel organism? The fact&#8212;as you rightly pointed out&#8212;that scientist would find the task impossible to achieve could be an indication that evolution, as explained by atheist, is highly unlikely. Angazi kumbe uyangithola.
Uthe ngiphumele egcekeni whether I am a creationist or theistic evolutionist. Umbono wami yilo: nxa umuntu ekhula, zinengi izinto asifundayo. Ezinye ngama facts kanti njalo ezinye yimibono lamaTheories abanye abantu. Facts are facts and you can&#8217;t just reject them. To reject them, you would have to prove them wrong, but since they are facts, they can&#8217;t be proved wrong. On the other hand, a theory or an opinion is just that and its up to an individual to either accept it as it is, (if it makes sense to them) reject it (if it doesn&#8217;t), modify it (if part of it makes sense), etc etc. am I a creationist or theistic evolutionist? I believe both with minor modifications. Like I said in other posts, I believe organisms where created with intrinsic ability to evolve. I believe we were made superior to all other organisms and hence our ability to manipulate them and the environment for our good. I don&#8217;t believe all organisms have a common ancestor. You might ague then and say I should probably come up with the term to describe what I believe.
Ngiyabonga.

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