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#4715 - 06/24/03 05:53 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
The Chairman and Jaz it is good to know that as contributors to the DN forum we are reunited here to continue our discussions.<p>I think on that forum we really all helped to begin a debate that was at times caustic but always rewarding and thought-provoking.<p>I truly believbe that we contributed to the national debate conducted in the press and in many other forums which began over the Gukurahundi atrocities.<p>And The Chairman I remember with amusement the suggestion that was made regarding "sikhukhu ye gazi"!<p>:-)<p>In any event, Jaz, I accept that those who were recruited into the nation by Mzilikazi were expected to conform to the customs and habits of the nation: at the same time they changed, influenced, enriched the nation and for this reason I restate my view that the Ndebeles are not simply a "Zulu" offshoot but something different and unique with a texture that reflects many people and cultures.<p>I would also ask you to consider Jaz that the way in which Mkabi's people have affected the Ndebeles has served to reinforce a sense of separateness from Shona people.<p>I remember reading with sadness accounts of youngsters whose families were ravaged by the killers, rapists and amateur surgeons of the 5th Brigade and some said, until the 5th Brigade came to them, they did not know they were Ndebeles.<p>So as The Chairman reminds us, we are not just having an interesting academic discussion (much as I enjoy this dialogue with you) but also we have to face up to reality.<p>The reality that includes:<p>discrimination against Ndebele speakers in the jobs market;<p>discrimination against ventures by Ndebele speaking entrepreneurs;<p>corruption and nepotism in the award of tenders, allocation of licenses etc;<p>greater repression (including more stringent implementation of POSA) in Mat'land as opposed to other parts of the country;<p>and frequent threats from many people, not just Z PF people, that if Ndebeles are not "careful" and if they do not know their place as a minority in Zimbabwe the 5th Brigade could yet come again.<p>My response to all of these things is simple: give Ndebeles, or should I say rather Mthwakazians, security and autonomy in the part of the country we know as Matebeleland and Midlands Provinces in order to administer their own affairs.<p>Above all let us all make it crystal clear - whether we are black, white, green, yellow - that Almighty God Himself will come down from Heaven before ever Gukurahundi will be allowed to occur again.<p>As the Jews say about the Holocaust, "never again".<p>Mfowethu I have made it clear my loyalty is to the MDC.<p>In part this is because I see representatives of all ethnic groups working well together in that party; and in part because I can never forget that people - black, white, Ndebele, Shona have given their lives for their membership of that party.<p>At the same time I have repeatedly said that I encourage and support any other vehicle being formed and used by others to promote the welfare of our region.<p>It is not good or healthy to see people being marginalized and oppressed and I can not look forward to a future in my own hometown if my compatriots cannot see their own future.<p>I was reflecting on a Daily News report today regarding a young tourist from South Africa who was shot in cold blood in Bulawayo on Sunday.<p>We all know that crime is on the rise in Bulawayo and there is a racial element involved.<p>Let us address root causes of phenomena like this: poverty, a system of hatred wildly encouraged by Mkabi, a sense of division between black and white based on historical injustice and continuing disparities etc etc.<p>So we can blame murderers for bearing the mark of Cain, and punish them accordingly, but we need to encourage mass development and social cohesion in our home region.<p>The reason I try to engage on forums like this is because I think we simply need each other if we are to rebuild what has been destroyed.<p>I am not trying to provoke hatred or disunity but their opposites.<p>Perhaps that will redeem me as a Pan Africanist?<p>:-)<p>History will tell us what thrives and what fails, who was acting in good faith and who was acting in self-aggrandizement.<p>Thanks again magents for a truly worthwhile conversation.<p>

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#4716 - 06/24/03 06:48 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Ndukuzibomvu Offline
Ngqwele
****

Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
As far as I see it, the lines are already drawn in this "debate". Nothing is new in all that's been said, and I'm sure nothing will ever convince, if that is the objective, other people to open their eyes to the plight of OUR people. And, let me quickly elaborate and be VERY specific by what I mean by OUR people. I'm talking about abantu bakoMthwakazi, hashi abezimbabwe. AbakoMthwakazi bayazazi, abading'kutshelwa! I've said it before, and let me reiterate it one more time, especially for amavimbandlebe. The z-word is an ideology, a hegemonist ideology of those cowards that are otherwise known as abetshabi, together with all their lapdogs and shameless/gutless/spineless lackeys. <p>It is imperative for our people to be vigilant, especially at this very critical point in the evolution of our nationhood. Abetshabi will use ALL possible/impossible means to frustrate our aspirations. They will use every possible/impossible weapon out there to obfuscate the obvious. They'll do everything to conceal the truth , to misinform the vulnerable, and, indeed, KILL our dream. Khepha ke, ababuzanga elangeni! Okulempondo akufihlwa emgodleni! Uzakhumbula ukuthi, ngemvelo, uMthwakazi zinkomo ezavul'nqaba ngezimpondo, zafohla kunxishiwe. Awungeke wenqabele izifiso zeSizwe naphakade. Ngenye imini enhle, uzezwa angathi uyasha. Siyeza isiqhotho. Ayeza amalangabi.<p>A final word to abantu bakithi: Please be VIGILANT. Abetshabi will resort to every trick in the book to keep you oppressed and marginalised for ever. They'll even try the well-known "divide and rule". They'll try to plant seeds of disunity among you. They'll try to make you distrust one another. But, remember, only YOU can let them do this! My advice is, never let them pull you asunder. Your colours are what make you strong. Amabala enu yinkatha yeSizwe. <p>Words....<br>Words that conceal<br>Words that demean<br>Insulting words<br>Caustic words<br>Oppressive words<br>Words that frustrate<br>Cold words<br>Acidic words<p>Ah, the power of words<br>Words will go where a bullet will not<br>Words that destroy<br>Words that divide<br>Flowery words<br>Deceptive words<br>Misleading words<p>Ah, the wonder of words<br>The wonder of language<br>Be mindful of language<br>Be CAREFUL of language<br>Flowery language<p>I think it is Mzwakhe kaMbuli who has a track appropriately entitled "ukufa kwengqondo". You should try to listen to it, if you can.<p>Ngiyema lapha. <p><p><p><p><br>

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#4717 - 06/24/03 07:13 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Pinksticks I have to agree with you.<p>There is one ngqondo with an Ndebele name who regularly addresses flowery words to "President Mugabe" in one of the papers, seeking his cooperation in a peaceful transition to democratic rule.<p>I no longer believe only Shonas are allowed to be shifty.<p><br>;-)<p><p>

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#4718 - 06/25/03 12:09 AM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Ndukuzibomvu Offline
Ngqwele
****

Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
The nation of Mthwakazi has ALREADY started singing the freedom/liberation song. It is a revolutionary song. It is a moving/touching song. It is spiritual and it's awe-inpiring. It is the same song that our ancestors sang, as they faced tribulations. The same song that saw them triumph against all odds, when everyone thought they were doomed. <p>It is a sacred song, akin to the Inxwala song. It is a song that reverberates through the landscape/tapestry of the history<br>iSizwe sakithi. It's the song that the ancient warriors chanted when leaving homes/families for war. It's the same song they chanted when returning home, after a compaign. <p>Let it be known, in unequivocal terms, to all those trying to stand in the way of the tide that this song will ONLY get louder with time. The voices of the people will get more agitated. The day of reckoning is not far away. Sekuseduze lapho siya khona. Qiniselani we maqhawe. <p>Ibambeni! <p><p> <br>

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#4719 - 06/25/03 07:42 AM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Sheik Mthembo Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 629
Loc: The People's Republic of Mthwa...
We will never be weakened! We will never bow to anyone! We will never listen to the appeasers ! <p>We mean what we say! We have a real strength of character as our forefathers did!<p>Mugabe tried to wipe us out(Gukurahundi:I am told it means removing izibi or chuff).<p>We were regarded as izibi to be removed completely and put in the dustbins of a country so called Zimbabwe!<p>But we have survived and this is another day for us to fight our way to Independence!<p>We will never make any more mistakes! Some have said we are a scheming people! We lost this skill through Nkomo's mistakes and we have learned from his mistakes a great deal!<p>Now we begin on this tough Road to scheme our way through to Revive Mthwakazi and safeguard her rights within the Global Village of the World Peoples!<p>The Revival of Mthwakazi is on its way like iSavunguzane, like a tidal wave and there is victory at the end of this episode!<p><br>Victory, Victory is insight!<p><br>When we say HLASELA, we mean what we say!<p>Hlasela!

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#4720 - 06/25/03 09:13 AM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
ntombankala Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
Marcus my brother, I did not know that I belonged to the league of "great thinkers". I want to thank you for bestowing that honour on me "and others" you refer to in your posting. It is a great honour from a person of your type who eats, lives and dreams Mthwakazi. Amadlozi ka Mthwakazi - meaning oMzilikazi and others will give you the necessary honour - I am not fit to give that to you. I am convinced that they will do that for the rest of us - their children. Very soon bazakunika igama. You have to be patient because I can not say when as such processes are beyond our power. <p>Chairman - siyakubonga ngokuqala loludaba. Kusobala ukuthi uthunywe ngabadala. Njengoba usitsho, "our final push will be a real thing - it will not be a game of cowards as was displayed 2 weeks ago. Talking about cowards, Colin Powell is quoted by the New York Times of Tuesday, 24 as saying, "I met brave people..." Please note, "brave" this was in reference to Archi - bishop Pius Ncube who paid him a visit. khuzani uvalo bo!!<p>In this game as you have shown Nobhutshuzwayo lawe mfoka Nduku, lani lonke Chairman, amagwala have no role to play. And as Marcus quotes, the Jews said, "never again" of the holocaust - and we say "never again" of the rule and systems of abetshabi. let them do it in their backyard. Let them chase away white people, "because they are not Zimbabweans" and loot their belongings in their land. We will not do that since whites too and Indians are Ndebele. Yes lingizwe kahle - ngamaNDEBELE. Let them do it with the support of the likes of Libya, Sudan, Malaysia - let them do it.<p>Indeed Mr Chairman - what is a system? We know that a system is made of sub - systems. Ths shona system is made up of such sub - systems. And rightfully, the sub - systems have to use some synergy, they have to work together, have to be rewarded to maintain the whole system intact. <p>We have come from the great tribulation - we have gone through fire and we say "never again". And yes, the song of freedom can only get louder and louder - it is sacred and those who stand in the path of abantwana benkosi are only asking for a curse to themselves. Buzani oFusi - bazalitshela.<p>lingalibali ukuthi this work has its own pace setter. Yes we have to talk. Kufanele sibonisane. for a while people thought that "Joshua had gone with all the leadership qualities". Cha akunjalo. Wenza watshiya lapho ayefanele atshiye khona. Liqhawe lingakhohlwa - lingaqali ukumthethisa. Lihlazo bo. Mkhulekeni. Phakathi kwenu, ikhethiwe ingwe emabalabala. Yebo ikhethwa ematholeni ingwe - phela amathole ayayihlonipha ingwe. Lizayazi, lizayithanda. Usukhona umoya njalo uyeza, 'mkhulu kakho kwabaphilayo olamandla okuwuqeda.

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#4721 - 06/25/03 09:55 AM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Gentlemen I have never done anything other than support the search for justice and peace and a fair dispensation for the people and home area in which I was born and grew up following the methods which will lead us to the best result and not cheat us of that result.<p>Anyone who suggests otherwise does so at his own estimation of his ability to foresee the future.<p>

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#4722 - 06/25/03 10:56 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
My brother Ntombankala I do reiterate that in every word I have read that emanates from your pen there is consistency, sincerity and integrity. I believe you can stand with pride by every word you have written that I have read.<p>I mean on this site of course.<p>If I were critical I am sure you would believe I meant my criticism.<p>As I offer this respect I know you know it is sincerely meant too.<p>:-)

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#4723 - 06/25/03 01:11 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
Marcus- yesterday (or was it the day before?) you spoke of a lunatic fringe and the pleasure that you derive from not debating with one of their number. It would appear to me, going by the delusions and illusions, rantings and ravings and Zanu-pf like-petty sloganeering of some of the posts in this thread and in this forum in general, that the lunatics have taken over the asylum. But will Marcus speak out against this "lunatic fringe"? Suffice to say that one better not hold their breath- perhaps Marcus does not consider them lunatics since he is in agreement with them! Which begs the question "what is a lunatic?" Perhaps we should leave at "One man's lunatic is another's voice of reason"<br>Yet but then again I digress, turing to the matter at hand. Marcus you state "discrimination against Ndebele speakers in the jobs market; discrimination against ventures by Ndebele speaking entrepreneurs, corruption and nepotism in the award of tenders, allocation of licenses"<br>I hope you will agree with me that what you describe with these statements is a description of Shona oppression of Mthwakazi. Thus I feel I must ask you, would you say that the oppression of the Ndebele by the Shona is in anyway of the same order of magnitude as that of Blacks by whites in colonial Rhodesia?. Conditions prevailing then include <br>a) a two tier educational system designed to hinder the education of African while promoting white education and opportunity<br>b) a two tier health system - infant mortality rates that were appreciably lower for the whites than the blacks, higher life expectancy for the whites<br>c) higher employment rates for the whites<br>Do any of these conditions apply in modern day Zimbabwe? Given that white people benefited and in the main did nothing to stop this abuse of Africans would it be fair to blame them as much as the system for these abuses (in much the same way as you blame the Shona for Mugabe's outrages)? I must ask you what job market you are talking about when the economy has all but collapsed? Invariably you may re-treat to our intrepid Shona speaking ice cream vendor at a corner in Bulawayo as evidence of this discrimination. Consider this hypothetical situation- there are 50 Shona people and 50 Ndebele people in Bulawayo. One of the Shona is our ice cream vendor leaving 49 unemployed Shona and 50 unemployed Ndebele people. The question is what concerns you most- the fact that the one ice cream vendor is Shona and not Ndebele or that there are 99 unemployed people?<br>With respect to your second statement - what evidence do you have to back this assertion?<br>Your third statement does no more that extend the fallacy and fiction that has been trailed on this forum as though it were incontrovertible truth- namely that corruption, nepotism are an affliction that affects the Shona. This is patently not true corruption is at pandemic levels in Africa (unless you are suggesting that the Shona have something to do with this too!!) Indeed I'd bet the shirt on my back that were Matebeleland to become independent corruption and nepotism would find a home there too!!

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#4724 - 06/25/03 02:09 PM Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe'
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Jaz I have no hesitation in accepting the truth that many aspects of the prejudice of Ndebele speakers in favour of others simply replicates the position of white dominance in former times.<p>This is why I make the argument that white supremacism was wrong and unsustainable and so is the present ethnarchy - and so would be any discriminatory system in the future.<p>Unfortunately whether I like it or not the fact is on the ground that Ndebeles are being prejudiced as I have described.<p>This is the truth.<p>There are elemnts in this of what may be described as "internal colonialism" as when people arrive in remote parts of Matebeleland in order to work in civil service positions without the slightest relation to the communities in which they find themselves.<p>This saga of marginalization is the truth.<p>It may be inconvenient to some but it is the truth.<p>As I have previously indicated to you for example the fact that so many (one million? two million?) people from Mthwakazi are now lodging in South Africa tells its own story.<p>Jaz I have no doubt - as in any society - our home region has and will have problems with nepotism and corruption of various kinds.<p>But at the moment it seems that we are not in a position to regulate and deal with these realities as the prime culprits at present come from Mkabi's power base.<p>The disgraceful actions of Chiyangwa in destroying viable Bulawayo businesses is an example. <p>This is an excellent forum with many wise and thoughtful contributors and I learn a great deal here.<p>I would say, for example, that as a veteran of the Daily News forum the likes of The Chairman has been absolutely consistent in enunciating his view over some years and he can by no means be taken lightly.<p>I respect his right.<p>So in my view this is not a lunatic overrun by its inhabitants though there may be a pipsqueak here or there who is too wet behind the ears to take part in a structured conversation as he wishes to make him self the centre of attention for egomaniacal reasons coonected to jealousy and feelings of inadequacy.<p>Maybe as I am just a white ngqondo some one can explain to me how some ngqondo can start shouting about Inxwala where Inxwala is a royal ceremony that is for a King to convoke.<p>Do we have a King - or rather some ngqondo who dreams he is a King - in our midst?<p>At the end of the day Marcus is connected to and accountable to real people in the struggle against the oppression and marginalization of Mthwakazi and what is said or not said by some virtual nonentity on the internet can never affect that.<p>:-)<p>And in any event I am just a guest and it is not for me to explain to my hosts where I think there seems to be evidence of madness.<p>Madness displays itself and often it is its own reward.

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