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#6227 - 03/28/05 02:57 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
THANDINDABA Offline
Nduna

Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 312
Loc: donkwedonkwe
Ndumelihle,
Do not confuse issues or yourself even. If you want to hero worship Pius and the rest of your other heroes do go aheard please. No one will stop you. If the so-called Moyo loyalists were just writing nonsense I do not see how there could be so many responses to their inputs. Likewise if you have something worthwhile to write about D. Ndoda go ahead and people will respond if it is an intelligent piece.

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#6228 - 03/28/05 03:06 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Mabila Offline
Nkosi
***

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 2124
Loc: Ayowa
Kengibuze Thandindaba lo Samdala. Has Moyo said anything nge federation recently or in the past? I seem to have missed it.

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#6229 - 03/29/05 01:41 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
ntombankala Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bafowethu - Let us think far much wider than we have been doing so far. Yes we believe that our own state or federation will be ideal. A state where Higlanders A will be playing its under 19, 18 going downwards. A state where my brother will marry your sister next door and vice versa - its fine. These are "ideal scenarios"- izifiso zabo Themba labo Amkela. But let us look at real world issues.

Before you proceed, ask yourself why the current Matlander will want to divide izwe phakathi elalibuswa ko Bulawayo. Lobengula ruled the whole of this country and that should happen to us today. Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry could just be eclipsing our thinking. We have to make hard choices at times and swallow our pride.

But let us be practical and observe what is happening around us. Lalelani lani elise mashiftini (emashitini)hk hk hk hk. I must laugh since abanye bethu lapha bebekholisa ukuthethisa uMoyo ngenhlamba zonke esizaziyo kodwa nxa isikhuni sesibuya ngabo bayazonda.

Sthutha has a brilliant way of analysing politics. We should be grateful of having such talent among us. Just read his post where he talks about "alliances". Most of us are unfortunately trapped by the "straight jacket political thinking" mentioned by Sthutha. This is a world of alliances. You have them practically everywhere, NATO, NAFTA, EU,etc. Radical thinking has a tendency of making one feel in charge when only what they are going through are hallucinations. How far are we from hallucinations and loud sounding nothings when we talk about our own state and action recorded is minus zero???

Look at the political landscape in Zim at the moment. Who are the main players? ZPF and MDC - no doubt. Forget Siwela or some of the political parties in their embryos. These two parties will be influential on who rules and their strength lies in "internal alliance formation". ZPF could have long decided to exclude Matland from the rest of the country - but that is not possible. Its not. Ask yourself why they have kept us. MDC is led by a Shona but created alliances with Matlanders. In the same breath, Matlanders should create alliances that will make the attainment of democracy a reality.

Heterogeneity as opposed to homogeneity is what is characterising societies today. There is no better example than the USA and that factor alone makes the USA the biggest brain economy in the world. These are hard truths. We dont like each other with Shonas but we have to. Bigotry bigotry bigotry is not for statespersons.

How do we do it? Already Moyo and oJabulani Sibanda have started that process using ZPF. There is absolutely no crime in them maintaining that they are ZPF. Since they have the vision, ZPF is the support base that will make any die hard ZPF fall for the trick without spilling any blood. Using this formula Jona was able to get support of the six provinces out of 10 to his side. Remember that this is the first time since 1980 that any person from Matland has ever recieved such Shona support. Being ZPF does not mean they embrace totally its approaches. I know that someone will rush and pull the ZPF manifesto or an article where Moyo talked about ZPF having the same ideals as his. Wait. Inhlwa kayibanjwa ngekhanda kanti kazithiywa zikhangela kodwa zithiywa ngezikudlayo.

That formula would have seen Jona coming within reach of the presidency at a later date. The truth is that there are a lot of disgruntled ZPF provinces willing to join hands with Matland. Those should help in building the alliance.

If you go through ZPF, its top leadership is tired. Soon Mgobovich will go. He has no choice. Joice Mujuru will not be able to rule. ZPF with its armed forces structure in place will likely call the shots. Therefore it is logical to expect those in ZPF but supported by provinces to rule. This is where Jona comes in.

Whether Jona remains an independent or not depends on assurances that those who supported him for Tsholotsho will do the same in 2008. Its about alliances. If not, he might look to the MDC or elsewhere.

A specific question posed by Mabila on whether Jona has said anything about the federation or not - information on the ground shows that the manner in which provinces are structured Mabila favours a federation. Think about issues like governance of provinces, semi - quarter system in army, education, or attempts to replicate gvt provided services in all rovinces, etc. Jona is aware of this but feels that a people drafted constitution will be the only source of accurate information. At the moment the goal is change the top.

As Sthutha - that gifted writer cautions, the world over (except in very rare circumstences like Darfur) is moving into blocks or groupings or regional integration. The entity currently known as Zim is indebted to such countries as the EU, US, Scandinavia, Asia and world bodies like IMF.

Zim is expected to pay all its debts. A pursuit of a strategy of separation will find no support from indebted countries. How do they aportion the debt? Using which formula? Remember that the case of Matland in Zim has not been taken anywhere near the UN or SADC doorstep - unless someone else has accurate information to the contrary. Its an unknown factor that can not be explained - INSIGNIFICANT.

All we have been doing is fantasize like a boy who eventually gets wet dreams with no woman in sight.It is also disgusting to note that some people here rant and rave and will want us to pursue that empty talk under the guise of doing something. These guys are just basket cases and they know it but wont stop. Akukhulwe bo.

The USA for instance will not support any separatists because of the message that will be sent to other regions of the world including Carlifornia, Iraq, Spain etc. The US believes that all Zims are under siege from Mgobovich and that once there is a democratic gvt in Zim, Matland will thrive. This is important to note and is no newspaper story.

Finally - what do some people in Matland say about the country and leadership? People want a dedicated responsible leadership and are not very sure whether they should say an Ndebele or Shona. They want somebody who will not fail them like the current establishment and they point to the Botswana example where they say, "we hear that people dont starve there". Remember that locally, they have no one as role model from a leadership perspective and that could explain why they cant say a Shona or Ndebele leader.

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#6230 - 03/29/05 01:43 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
ntombankala Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
Bafowethu - Let us think far much wider than we have been doing so far. Yes we believe that our own state or federation will be ideal. A state where Higlanders A will be playing its under 19, 18 going downwards. A state where my brother will marry your sister next door and vice versa - its fine. These are "ideal scenarios"- izifiso zabo Themba labo Amkela. But let us look at real world issues.

Before you proceed, ask yourself why the current Matlander will want to divide izwe phakathi elalibuswa ko Bulawayo. Lobengula ruled the whole of this country and that should happen to us today. Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry could just be eclipsing our thinking. We have to make hard choices at times and swallow our pride.

But let us be practical and observe what is happening around us. Lalelani lani elise mashiftini (emashitini)hk hk hk hk. I must laugh since abanye bethu lapha bebekholisa ukuthethisa uMoyo ngenhlamba zonke esizaziyo kodwa nxa isikhuni sesibuya ngabo bayazonda.

Sthutha has a brilliant way of analysing politics. We should be grateful of having such talent among us. Just read his post where he talks about "alliances". Most of us are unfortunately trapped by the "straight jacket political thinking" mentioned by Sthutha. This is a world of alliances. You have them practically everywhere, NATO, NAFTA, EU,etc. Radical thinking has a tendency of making one feel in charge when only what they are going through are hallucinations. How far are we from hallucinations and loud sounding nothings when we talk about our own state and action recorded is minus zero???

Look at the political landscape in Zim at the moment. Who are the main players? ZPF and MDC - no doubt. Forget Siwela or some of the political parties in their embryos. These two parties will be influential on who rules and their strength lies in "internal alliance formation". ZPF could have long decided to exclude Matland from the rest of the country - but that is not possible. Its not. Ask yourself why they have kept us. MDC is led by a Shona but created alliances with Matlanders. In the same breath, Matlanders should create alliances that will make the attainment of democracy a reality.

Heterogeneity as opposed to homogeneity is what is characterising societies today. There is no better example than the USA and that factor alone makes the USA the biggest brain economy in the world. These are hard truths. We dont like each other with Shonas but we have to. Bigotry bigotry bigotry is not for statespersons.

How do we do it? Already Moyo and oJabulani Sibanda have started that process using ZPF. There is absolutely no crime in them maintaining that they are ZPF. Since they have the vision, ZPF is the support base that will make any die hard ZPF fall for the trick without spilling any blood. Using this formula Jona was able to get support of the six provinces out of 10 to his side. Remember that this is the first time since 1980 that any person from Matland has ever recieved such Shona support. Being ZPF does not mean they embrace totally its approaches. I know that someone will rush and pull the ZPF manifesto or an article where Moyo talked about ZPF having the same ideals as his. Wait. Inhlwa kayibanjwa ngekhanda kanti kazithiywa zikhangela kodwa zithiywa ngezikudlayo.

That formula would have seen Jona coming within reach of the presidency at a later date. The truth is that there are a lot of disgruntled ZPF provinces willing to join hands with Matland. Those should help in building the alliance.

If you go through ZPF, its top leadership is tired. Soon Mgobovich will go. He has no choice. Joice Mujuru will not be able to rule. ZPF with its armed forces structure in place will likely call the shots. Therefore it is logical to expect those in ZPF but supported by provinces to rule. This is where Jona comes in.

Whether Jona remains an independent or not depends on assurances that those who supported him for Tsholotsho will do the same in 2008. Its about alliances. If not, he might look to the MDC or elsewhere.

A specific question posed by Mabila on whether Jona has said anything about the federation or not - information on the ground shows that the manner in which provinces are structured Mabila favours a federation. Think about issues like governance of provinces, semi - quarter system in army, education, or attempts to replicate gvt provided services in all rovinces, etc. Jona is aware of this but feels that a people drafted constitution will be the only source of accurate information. At the moment the goal is change the top.

As Sthutha - that gifted writer cautions, the world over (except in very rare circumstences like Darfur) is moving into blocks or groupings or regional integration. The entity currently known as Zim is indebted to such countries as the EU, US, Scandinavia, Asia and world bodies like IMF.

Zim is expected to pay all its debts. A pursuit of a strategy of separation will find no support from indebted countries. How do they aportion the debt? Using which formula? Remember that the case of Matland in Zim has not been taken anywhere near the UN or SADC doorstep - unless someone else has accurate information to the contrary. Its an unknown factor that can not be explained - INSIGNIFICANT.

All we have been doing is fantasize like a boy who eventually gets wet dreams with no woman in sight.It is also disgusting to note that some people here rant and rave and will want us to pursue that empty talk under the guise of doing something. These guys are just basket cases and they know it but wont stop. Akukhulwe bo.

The USA for instance will not support any separatists because of the message that will be sent to other regions of the world including Carlifornia, Iraq, Spain etc. The US believes that all Zims are under siege from Mgobovich and that once there is a democratic gvt in Zim, Matland will thrive. This is important to note and is no newspaper story.

Finally - what do some people in Matland say about the country and leadership? People want a dedicated responsible leadership and are not very sure whether they should say an Ndebele or Shona. They want somebody who will not fail them like the current establishment and they point to the Botswana example where they say, "we hear that people dont starve there". Remember that locally, they have no one as role model from a leadership perspective and that could explain why they cant say a Shona or Ndebele leader.

Top
#6231 - 03/29/05 02:34 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Mabs,

You wonder allowed:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Has Moyo said anything nge federation recently or in the past? I seem to have missed it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mabs, yes indeed Moyo has pronounced on these issues many times before. He specifically asserted that if regional development is ignored eg Tsholotsho, the rise of secession demands were inevitable particularly
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "the much feared Republic of Matebeleland" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moyo long pronounced on the need for immediate and urgent attention to regional development or else people would rightly advocate for federation or secession because they were not deriving any value from a centralised gvt.

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#6232 - 03/29/05 03:22 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Mabila Offline
Nkosi
***

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 2124
Loc: Ayowa
"Jona is aware of this but feels that a people drafted constitution will be the only source of accurate information. At the moment the goal is change the top."


You write very intimately ngo Jona Ntombankala. Emphasis on "Jona....aware......feels" Hhmn..........Am impressed!

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#6233 - 03/29/05 05:22 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Mabila Offline
Nkosi
***

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 2124
Loc: Ayowa
Sthutha!

Uke wasicela ukuthi sifunde i Third Way elotshwe ngu Thileva. Sengivela yifunda. I have the following serious misgivings ngayo:

1. Reliance on Mugabe to get us out of the current mess as if the guy has any aorta of intergrity left in him. Let's try other formulae please ezingela ****anyana lo phakathi!

2. Beleif that Mugabe has the capacity and the political "Goodwill" to resolve the mess if he so decides.

3.That if indeed Mugabe appointed the top threee technocrats from the ruling party, it would not only be a fair and wise pick but also a visionary leadership! Mugabe seems to thrive on having buffoons around him and has demostrated this very well ngabo Chikowore,Mangwende, Chinotimba etc etc. Baphi o Simba Makoni, Nkosana Moyo labanye nje abavusileyo kibo?? He hates challenge of any shape and form. That is what he has shown us to be in the past 25 years.
Why trust him now to deliver anything??

If Thileva had suggested the Third Way in 1995 besisakuzwa. Okwamanje laye uyazitsholo ukuthi he is not confident of his suggestions. I personally agree with those who want to try a brand new broom. Bazafunda labo as long as they know they have a definite period in power.

Zimbabwe Third Way Solution

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#6234 - 03/29/05 05:51 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Sthutha

I have also read Trevor Ncube's article and I do not agree with his views at all. In fact Trevor Ncube sounds a bit confused and one could be forgiven to think that maybe he wants to be given the post vacated by our very own Dr Jonathan Moyo.

Maybe he still wants the perpetuation of Zpf rule seeing that it benefits his media empire which is the only independent press left in Zimbagwe following the premature death of Strive Masiwa's Daily News and Kindness Paradza's Tribune. Not that I care a jot about the sudden death of these Shona newspapers, iam merely speculating.

We have individuals like Dr Jonathan Moyo who do not patronise anyone he has lambasted Mugabe as follows:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> We are a young, dynamic society led by an old, stagnant clique.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When Mugabe recently lied through his protruding teeth that Moyo wept:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> tears started flowing down his cheeks
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moyo fired back at the age-old demented dictator:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It might be a reflection on his cruelty. . . . Is his office a torture chamber?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Trevor must learn to have BIG BALLS(do not be scared Mabs) like a true Ndebele warrior and blast this senile old idiot.

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#6235 - 03/30/05 12:44 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
Mabhidliza Tsunami Gagasi Offline
Sikhulu

Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 286
Loc: Next Door
Bafethu,

I will say it again, Jonathan Moyo is a mastermind, a man of action and a true legend of Mthwakazi, no one can fit in his shoes at the moment of time in Zimbabwean Politics.

<img src="http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pix/moyomeatmarket.jpg" alt=" - " />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By Staff Reporter
Last updated: 03/29/2005 22:48:25
ZIMBABWE'S former Information Minister Jonathan Moyo has filed an
urgent High Court petition seeking an interdict to stop Thursday's parliamentary elections because of a dispute over the number of polling agents needed per constituency.

His lawyer, Kossam Ncube filed the papers Wednesday night at about 9pm
Zimbabwe time.

The matter is expected to be heard at the Bulawayo High Court Wednesday.

Moyo, who was expelled from Zanu PF and government following accusations of plotting a coup is standing as an independent candidate in Tsholotsho constituency in Matabeleland North.

Moyo wants the elections throughout the country suspended until the issue of the polling agents is addressed.

Moyo, in an interview last week warned that if the issue of polling officers was not addressed, the poll would be a "washout".

?In terms of the law, there shall in each polling station be at least three voting compartments, each containing at least one ballot box, allocated for the use of voters whose surnames begin with the letters A to L, M, and N to Z,? Moyo said lat Friday.

?This means that each candidate will need at least four election agents, three inside and one outside. But as it is, each candidate will have two agents, one inside and the other outside.?

Moyo, author of Voting for Democracy which explores in detail the electoral system in Zimbabwe, told the weekly Zimbabwe Independent newspaper last week it would be impossible for election agents to cope, resulting in serious delays.

?How can one person deal with three copies of the voters? roll, three polling booths, three queues of voters and counting of ballots from three booths at the same time?? Moyo asked.

?There should have been adequate arrangements for this new electoral dispensation. I raised the issue with (Justice Minister Patrick) Chinamasa two weeks ago but there has been no action taken. The relevant authorities continue to dilly-dally and exhibit ignorance about these fundamental issues,? Moyo said.

?Meanwhile, time is ticking away and we are getting closer to the poll. If they continue to vacillate we will seek court intervention on these issues.

?A rose is still a rose by any other name,? Moyo said. ?The reality is that the same old institutions and staff are still in charge of the electoral process. Nothing has changed.?
JOIN THE DEBATE ON THIS ARTICLE ON THE NEWZIMBABWE.COM FORUMS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do dictators always think some one is an agent of somebody whenever their stupidity is exposed, why do those that seem to be telling the truth always labelled abazochitha when infact bayakha?, Mgabe's ideology is reflective in Zimbabwean politics for sure.


-------------------------------------------------
In Gwelutshena they still dance ingquzu kabantshintshi!

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#6236 - 03/30/05 12:53 PM Re: Jonathan Moyo
sthutha Offline
Nduna

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 304
My main interest nge-Third way was the aspect of alliances that he was suggesting.His whole article is not full-proof but there are several areas for me which I think gives some of us die-hard separatists or what ever a window of thought as to how the suppressed people can strategically align themselves to defeat M.g.a.x.a..

Of course he is wrong to say M.g.a.x.a. holds the keys to the solutions in Zim,but at the same time by pointing out the Zezurufication of Zanu at the expense of other tribes implies to me that those tribes can do something about their marginalisation.This is where I think alliances as attempted by Professor Moyo during the Tsholotsho Putsch are one such way.

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