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#57 - 09/22/03 06:16 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
rev.lovejoy Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 50
Loc: toronto
hey pple.pple.come on what has this world come to now,a man makes a point and everyone is on top of him like nobody 's business.Mdu, i believe you guys did a tremendous job on that story and i believe seeing how pple. really got into the story ,you achieved your goals as i see it of showing some pple,how things are really going down "emazweni" ,in that it will eventually discourage those involved in those unZimbabwean acts.iqiniso liqiniso ,if that's wat some pple.are doing it should not be a sin showing it to the world ,the only sinners i see here are the porn stars,don't kill the messenger please! keep up the good work guys and "tell it like it is" and shame to the porn stars !!

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#58 - 09/22/03 06:37 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Whilst Marcus you apologise to me you suddenly insult me which leaves me wondering who is the dullest between us.As for this argument about Tshaka i will brief you with facts as i have the History that was lectured to me Straight by a zulu proffesor not from WHITES AS YOU PROCLAIM whilst i was engaged with one university in Durban,Keep your eyes open my brother .As for so called Lobengula you want to be the spokesman for Marcus,you have succeeded well in your new endevour,congratulations but please even for the sake of pride reality is reality who can be proud of cowards and sell outs,in Zapu we had Lookout Masukus and company even during the days of real men like Mncumbatha we had puppets like Lobengula who sold our birthrights to whites after sugar and a Horse what a fool.mARCUS THE INTELLECTUAL you seem to be the most brightest fellow here what do you say about the Greatness and statesmanship of Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi .

<small>[ 25.09.2003, 20:04: Message edited by: thrower ]</small>

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#59 - 09/23/03 07:13 AM Re: Attention: Administrator
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Thrower
I am not going to waste my precious time correcting your Micky-Mouse grammatical errors that even a grade seven pupil should know: So in Durban you were "lectured straight by a zulu proffesor". Its not surprising that this "proffesor" misled you because indeed he was not a professor. This is exactly what we have been preaching to you that you have been misled by con-men "historians" pausing as Zulu Professors.You ask Marcus to boggle his mind on "Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi". My brother i grew up in Tsholotsho during the Gukurahundi atrocities and i only went to school up to the mandatory Grade seven but i can still realise that you need to go back to grade 3 to learn your verbs , adjectives, pronouns and basic sentence construction. Let me take the initiatve: Say this after me " Benny and Betty are playing" "they are happy", "UThemba loAmkela abafana" etc etc. After this i will monitor your progress. Marcus please help me as well.
If you again still believe in the "history" that King Lobengula "sold" the country for "sugar" then heavens have mercy on you. Remember the Rudd concession.That was a complicated piece of legislation that was drawn in London by legal experts. Even today it would have required legal eagles to interprete. Look, Bra Thrower, the British used complicated pieces of legislation to hoodwink and colonise almost a third of the whole world and brought billions of people under their dominion, from India to Iraq, Australia,large parts of Africa (remember the Cape to Cairo dream),the West Indies ,Asia ,South America, Canada etc etc. If at this day and age you still believe that the only heroes were "Mbuya Nehanda", "Kaguvi" while King Lobengula sold out then i have nothing further to say except to say it's a challenge to abafowethu to correct you and others who hold such nonsensical idiological follies.

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#60 - 09/23/03 12:25 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mfowethu Thrower I think our colleague Lobengula has already shown you that you would be incorrect to assume that I have a better knowledge of history than some of our colleagues here.

Let us hope we can both learn from him and from Ndukuzibomvu whose distinguished use of SiNdebele shows how roses elegantly conceal thorns! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mfowethu Thrower I cannot apologize to you for the previous apologies I have made to you because frankly your understanding of history and particularly the flatulent assertion you make about horses and sugar suggests to me you should return to Durban and ask the nutty professor who mistaught you so grievously to return whatever tuition fees you paid him.

Did you not know as our colleague Lobengula indicates that King Lobengula was fraudulently induced to sign the Rudd Concession?

Are you aware that after signing it his efforts to cancel the agreement by dispatching two of his senior advisers to the Cape, with the intention that they would then represent him to Queen Victoria in London, were subverted by Rhodes who was well aware of the dubious nature of the terms?

Are you aware that a number of the King?s advisers, including a London Missionary Society member, corruptly colluded with Rhodes?s delegates in the conclusion of the Concession?

I am afraid that when the dust has settled and history is written objectively and fairly Lobengula will be seen as a King who struggled against Imperialist forces which toppled Kings and Emperors across the planet with humanity, decency and principle.

He strove against forces which shifted continents, not just countries and he did so with honour.

He could have wiped out Rhodes?s representatives as the regicide Dingane, who you apparently prefer to honour over the King of Zulu Kings, did to Retief and others.

Do you know Dingane?s fate?

It was a fate predicted by King Shaka after the coward and his coconspirator had wounded him fatally.

Lobengula attempted to negotiate a middle path to save his Kingdom and his people with the Shakan prophecy and the example of Dingane in mind.

It was a noble, but doomed attempt, because of the nature of the historical forces aligned against him.

Who is remembered as the calculating schemer, Rhodes or Lobengula?

Who is remembered as a thief and who is remembered as a King in a tragic season?

When his Kingdom was invaded and he decamped northwards as his Royal City was put to flame there were a number of white people still in the City.

It was he who ordered that their lives should be protected.

A lesser man, a racist demagogue like people you and I know whose names do not deserve to be mentioned here, would have preferred to instil fear in the hearts of these whites and take their lives.

But Lobengula was a King.

Indeed he was a King and he does not deserve to be slandered on a site like this of all places.

Your comments reflect only on you.

As to King Mzilikazi and King Shaka.

Let me change the nature of your enquiry from ?what does Marcus think of the two?? because that is not important, to ?what did Shaka think of kaMashobane??

Shaka the Ngqwele of iziNgqwele, later known by Dingiswayo as ?Nodumehlezi?; who forged two hundred clans into a nation; who made a stabbing spear and great shield into the fighting weapons that changed the course of Southern and Central African history.

He respected Mzilikazi highly as a General and delegated to him an independent command. This tells us what Shaka thought.

When a dispute arose regarding certain cattle Shaka did not send a regiment to take the cattle and eliminate Mashobane?s son but he sent delegates to request them. This tells us what Shaka thought.

Finally where so many others who resisted Shaka bit dust, Mashobane?s son survived.

To travel a Great Trail, to forge tribes into a nation, to change the course of Southern and Central African history, to resist the Boers who defeated Dingane, and oblige them to sign a treaty which is the first legal instrument defining the sovereignty of our region of which I am aware.

He bequeathed survival as a legacy.

Mfowethu I understand why you have trapped yourself in a bitter denunciation of your own history and culture ? it is ironically because to criticise Marcus you decided to demean the people and events that I value and respect.

Please ? I have many faults, arrogance, hot temper, and impetuosity a few among them ? attack me for the faults I have and not for the heroes I admire.

I am sure I am a bad chap ? but I do have one virtue ? an ability to respect what is respectable and admire what is admirable.

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#61 - 09/23/03 01:05 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Marcus

I have to admit that you are a perfect Ndebele (as interpreted to refer to an one who subscribes to Ndebele culture,custom ,values ,history etc) gentleman. You remind me of King Mzilikazi's greatest friend uMtshede(Dr Robert Moffat), who Mzilikazi in his own words remarked that uMtshede healed him with his medicines when all his tradional healers had failed to heal him. He was also impressed with his medicines for wounds, particularly for wounded soldiers which contributed immensely to Mzilikazi's conquests in Central Africa. Kindly read PN Mnkandla's "Ilifa labo Baba" for a very good account of this in a coversation between Mncumbatha Khumalo (the man who crowned King Lobengula) and King Mzilikazi.

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#62 - 09/23/03 02:12 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
To be called an Ndebele gentleman by someone who is the epitome of an Ndebele gentleman is high praise indeed.

Lobengula I will keep my eyes open for Mr Mnkandla's book.

Actually as I write I have a copy of his work "Ulimi Lwethu" in front of me!

I do believe the friendship between the King and Moffat was an exemplary one in the sense that it does indeed set an example for men of honour in our own time.

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#63 - 09/23/03 06:36 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Lobengula ungikhumbuza utitsha wami owayengifundisa,wayethi bafana nxa lingalaleli abanye sizacina sihlangana lani lithengisa amatamatisi endleleni eCity Hall,what a fool,he thought ubutitsha was the greatest achievement in life,he had no wisdon to identify the potential yomuntu othengisa amatamatisi ukuthi engaba ngusomabhizimusi.This teacher I met him six years down the line elokhu engutitsha,I offerd him a lift waginqa ngoba with his jaw-breakers wayelokhu ehamba ngenyawo.This shows ukuthi isikhiwa is not the gretest of the languages ndoda unless nxa wakholonayzwa i am sure vele lethayi awuyikhuphi lalamuhla.Whilst ngisakhuluma lawe let me remind you and Marcus that Tshaka was by no means greater than Cetshwayo,as much as you admire him there are those who don't,recently while I was in Durban,I was shocked to notice that Mugabe is a Hero of some,including Jacob Zuma you mentioned,why?,we all know.they may be wrong or they may be right,as much as me and you recognising Tshaka as a great ruler or a despot.Even if Mugabe killed may Ndebeles there are some Zulus who have no relations with the Ndebeles,simple, because the Ngunis were made uo of many tribes,If History could repeat itself Tshaka will be liable for War Crimes,including Hittler,AND Mugabe,but.... to some they are their Biggest Heroes.

<small>[ 25.09.2003, 20:12: Message edited by: thrower ]</small>

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#64 - 09/23/03 06:49 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Lobengula for your own information amakeyboard skills angilawo so itete loku editor angilalo but uzame ukufaka ilogic kulokhu engikutshoyo,Richard Le Gallienne an English poet 1866-1947 once said,the cry of the little peoples goes up to God in vain,for the world is given over to the cruel sons of cain, I may not be the favourite of the webmaster or yours, but my brother there is a statue within me,you may despise me today but my brother i may offer you refuge one day,just like my former teacher,ngithi kuwe.There is nothing without a reason.ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT HISTORY IS MORE OR LESS BUNK.IT IS TRADITION,WE DONT WANT TRADITION,WE WANT TO LIVE IN THE PRESENT.And the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today.

<small>[ 25.09.2003, 20:15: Message edited by: thrower ]</small>

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#65 - 09/23/03 07:37 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mfowethu Thrower whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, all of us who are motivated to contribute at this site are in some sense connected to each other ngoba sonke siyazi ukuthi isiNtu sethu sithi umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu.

As such mfowethu ngiyakufisela okuhle kodwa and if there were no Thrower Marcus would be a lesser man.

Let me say three last things.

Firstly, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Without Shaka how would history have turned? Cetshwayo was the marked calf from the cattle kraal of the Shakan dynasty.

Secondly, if Shaka deserved to be a war criminal let us send Caesar, Napoleon, and many others including almost every English ruler from the past to The Hague.


Thirdly before you chew up and spit out the umbilical cord which connects you to your reality as an ingane yeNguni and so to the world, to history, and all that makes you human, consider this quote from that writer and teacher P. Ngobiwa Mnkandla:

"Phakathi kwezindimi zaseAfrika ulimi lwethu lolu lukhulu ngoba uluzwa uchapa uGwembe uluzwe uze uyenatha awoThukela."

Ngithi mina Ngqwele ufanele ukuziqhenya Mfowethu Majikijela!

You come from a great world and a big history mfanekhaya.

Don't belittle it.

Unfortunately too many others will be prepared to do this for you.

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#66 - 09/23/03 10:27 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Ndukuzibomvu Offline
Ngqwele
****

Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
Mnumzane Marcus:

Uma ngikhumbula kahle nguwena okewasho ngaphambili ukuba inyoni yasemazulwini, kumbe inhlanzi yaselwandle, ithiywa ngekudlayo! Ngempela, yiqiniso phaqa lelo. Kusenjalo nje, kwenye inkathi inkulumo yakho sengathi iyangiphica, hleze kungenxa yokufiphala kwengqondo yami, angikwazi! Kungasenani, bengicela ungichasisele ngokucacile ukuba utshoni uma uthi wena amazwi ami afana namaluba afihle ameva, angikuzwa kahle nsizwa yakithi. Sengathi inkulumo yakho imumethe, angazi ntoni <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kengibuze kancane, uyasazi na isihlatshana okuthiwa yimbabazane?

Sala kahle.

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