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#67 - 09/24/03 10:35 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Marcus my brother,I admit that we all stand at the shoulders of Giants and indeed i do not dispute that Tshaka is amongst one of them.But what I do not agree with was his abuse of his interlect,power and status while on his way to become what he is to date.My Giant in Zulu History is Cetshwayo who indeed through bravery humiliated the British and caused them permanent damage that even today if their descendants hear the mention of the word Zulu ,they have nightmares.Armed only with spears and knives,his men inflicted on the British the most crushing defeat that England has experienced at the hand of any dark race in morden times.In one skirmish he defeated and killed Prince Napoleon,heir to the French throne.It took England over one hundred million dollars and her best generals to cope with this African son of Zululand.Unlike Lobengula the King not the one from inkundla <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ,he did not run away and disappear he flung his defiance at the white envoys"go back and tell the white men this and let them hear it well-myself and everyone of my men will die first.I give you to sunset to get out of my territory."In 1879 the British under Lord Chelmsford,invaded Zululand.fighting,spears to byonets,black against white not black on black,the Zulus met the British in Isandlwana in the first great battle perhaps the bloodiest and most dramatic war in African colonial History,The Zulu warriors through a disciplined democratic leader masssacred them, killing more british soldiers than those who had died in the entire battle of waterloo.A few days later ,King Cetshwayo defeated the British at Rorkes Drift,and laid siege to Etshowe.Though Cetshwayo was captured later in the battles that followed he was imprisoned for three years and later granted permission to plead his case before Queen Victoria.When he arrived in England he was accorded a reception such as few monarchs have ever recieved.The Zulus led by Cetshwayo,became fully recognised as a complex,fascinating civilization.though the death of over ten thousand zulu warriors had the aim of defending their independence against the British,their efforts ended in tradegy,they dealt the British their most shocking defeat,and Zulu resistance to the colonists won them unforgettable place in legend and History.
There is a Scottish Guy who wrote....."What a pity it is that I shall be beyond the bosphorus before the next tweed!But I yet hope to light my pipe with it in persia.
My northern friends have accused me,with justice,of personality towards their great litery anthropophagus,Jeffrey;but what else was to be done with him and his dirty pack,who feed by 'lying and slandering',and slake their thirst with 'evil speaking'?.And if it were not the Marcuses ,throwers would not be eligible,it seldom pays to be rude.It never pays to be only half -rude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ 24.09.2003, 12:46: Message edited by: thrower ]</small>

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#68 - 09/24/03 12:09 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mtanenkosi Ndukuzibomvu

With almost any other contributor to this site I might try to respond as best as I can in SiNdebele but next to your poetic prose or prosodic poetry the best of efforts would seem as dirty water to fine wine.

So I will try to reply as best as I can and as best as I understood you.

I hope it will not surprise you to hear that it was not I who expressed a view regarding the proper domain of birds or fish.

Insofar as the saying is a scientific observation I suppose it is true as far as it goes.

But as a metaphor for the human condition I leave the birds to ornithologists and the fish to ichthyologists and proceed instead from the premise of the poet Alexander Pope that "The proper study of Mankind is Man."

What fascinates me is how when we think we are most different from each other then we are most alike.

Truly Pope calls Man "The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!"

I hope you will accept that as a person who relishes discursive displays of intellect as well as verbal skill when I speak of piercing intelligence which I refer to as thorns and a fine command of words which I refer to as roses only praise is intended.

One can only value and appreciate the qualities of eloquence and knowledge which you and our colleague Lobengula and most others bring to bear.

I don't intend to throw insults at anyone but I can only wish that every single contributor showed similar subtle judgement and linguistic skill.

So Mnu Ndukuzibomvu I hope I have grasped the nettle and provided a direct and sincere response.

I value nothing more from friend or acquaintance than to be taught and I do learn from you.

May our paths cross again.

Now from fine wine I turn to whine.

Thrower I am trying to respect you.

Please try to find it in your heart to find a way to help me to do so.

Yes, mfowethu, King Cetshwayo was all you say and more but as I seem to remember the way you jeered about the circumstances of the death of King Shaka would you care to comment about the disastrous results of the Anglo-Zulu War for KwaZulu and would you care to explain why if kaSenzangakhona's death (175 years ago today)was a comedy kaMpande's death should be seen as a tragedy?

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#69 - 09/24/03 03:49 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
mahlaba ayithwale Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 14
Loc: mzansi
with all due respect allow me to mindle with fareminded , elloquent ,intelectuals who by there contributions have taken me through a complete corse in my culture , history and history.
i can not find words which are equivalent to my gratitude to all of you who cntribute to this site ,ngesintu sikamthwakazi thina abakagodlawayo omnyama umahlabayithwale sithi lingadinwa qubekani mabutho kaLobengula .
lamuhla ngiyabona ukuthi bengingazi lutho,

special thanks
to marcus ,lobengula ,trower, ndukuebomvu

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#70 - 09/24/03 03:56 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Ndukuzibomvu Offline
Ngqwele
****

Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
Sawubona njalo Mnumzane Marcus:

Ngizoqala ngokubonga impendulo yakho ecacile. Bheka, manje ngiyezwa laph'oqhamuka khona wena. Kuhle ukuthi sizwane kahle, ngoba phela uma abantu bengezwani, uyazi nawe ukuthi kuvame ukuchitheka igazi lendoda kumbe ubuchopho mpela!

Ngizothanda ukukushiya lalokh'ukudla kwengqondo: esiNtwini kuthiwa induku ibanjwa ngomzaca, cha ngesiduku. Kunjalo nje, kuthiwa inhlwa kayibanjwa ngekhanda. Ngethemba uyazi kahle wena ukuthi okulempondo akufihlwa emgodleni <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sala ngokuthula.

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#71 - 09/24/03 04:40 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mnu Ndukuzibomvu ngixolele, ngiphinde ngizame ukukhuluma iSiNdebele seNkosi.

Mtanenkosi ngilokhu ngikubonga, uma sengilezimpondo angisoze ngikuhlabe ngophondo.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Njengumfowethu Mahlaba Ayithwale ngijabula ukuthi singabantu abaphucukile, siyakwazi ukuxoxa, ukukhuluma, mhlawumbe ukuxabana, kodwa njalo siphinde sikhulume ukuze noma nini sihlangene.

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#72 - 09/24/03 07:26 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
mdu Offline
Mafikizolo

Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 17
Loc: Cardiff
Rev Lovejoy/Marcus

Marcus' summation that newzimbabwe.com will always 'flourish' was flattering. Rev Lovejoy's robust defence of our position makes us proud at newzimbabwe.com.
the debate has been intelligent, despite repeated attempts by Thrower to hurl spanners into the work of intellectuals. He is an intelligent man though, same as everyone who has contributed to this thread.
Thanks for the debate guys.

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#73 - 09/24/03 08:01 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mdu the site you have established at www.newzimbabwe.com will without question flourish indeed.

And deservedly so.

In my not-so-humble opinion the way you have reacted to provocative criticism from me with such a seasoned attitude has only augmented your reputation.

May I say again, without massacring a Royal language, that the tone and quality of the debate, the courtesy, the absence of real rancour, the sheer intelligence, has been an inspiration to me.

In particular the positivity of our colleagues Lobengula and Ndukuzibomvu makes me marvel again at human nature.

The UbuNdebele that was evident to me from early childhood is as alive here, in electronic form, as at any place at home.

You are true heirs and true survivors.

I know
you know
what
I mean.

May God continue to guide and protect each and every one of you and every other survivor at home.

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#74 - 09/25/03 05:10 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Mdu,Rev Lovejoy,Ndukuzibomvu,Mahlaba Ayithwale and you my Brother Marcus you humble me nge sense of aproach yenu towards this constructive deb <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ate.To Mnumzane uLobengula I raise a question to you,"Do you know the MENSA ORGANISATION.?"Today there are more than 100 000 Mensas in 100 countries worldwide,next time you come across a Guy who writes with keyboard mistakes and a few grammatic errors he may be having an IQ which is higher than yours.
To my Great brothers lapha ku Nkundla who have given me the courage to throw those spanners at the intellectuals like what Mdu says,it gives me much laughter to realise that amongst you there are those who don't miss my intelligence.I do not write and hurl only but I read as well.What you write I read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted,nor to find talk and discourse,but to weigh and consider.Some writings are to be tasted,others to be read but not curiosly,and some few to be read wholly,and with diligence and attention.Some of your contributions also maybe read by deputy,and extracts made of them by others;but that would be only in the less important arguments and the meaner sort of Debate.Reading makes a full man;Conference a ready man;and writing an exact man;and therefore,if a man write little he had need have a great memmory;if he confer little he had need have a present wit;if he read little he had need have much cunning,to seem to know that he doth not.And its true,Histories make man wise;poets witty;the mathematicks,subtile;natural philosophy,deep;moral,grave;logic and rhetoric,able to contend.
My brother Marcus about Cetshwayo and Mpande,what they were was different to what Tshaka was that is a question I have long answered you.
History tells us that following Tshaka's assasination by Dingane,28 Sep. 1828, and Dingane's removal by Mpande in 1839-1840 the Zulu nation was fraught with uncertainty over the succession to the throne.
Mpande however had LEGITIMATE sons.Succession of the Zulu monarchy was based on the first born son of the great wife,However Cetshwayo was born to the Zulu Prince Mpande and his WIFE Ngqumbazi in 1826 at Mpande's HOMESTEAD embambongwenya,south east of Zululand.
Cetshwayo's name means the 'slandered one' possibly reffering to a rumour over his legitimacy spread by Dingane.Although Dingane had eliminated all his brothers,Mpande was alowed to live.He had producsed two sons thus ensuring a continuation of the royal line.Neither Dingane or King Tshaka his pedecessors had produced OFFSPRING.
King Cetshwayo later died on the 8th of Feb 1884.An Autopsy was refused to be carried,However an abortive attempt was made against him by Mnyamana kangqengele,induna of the Buthelezi and Cetshwayo,s ndunankulu.
Cetshwayo's body was refered to Enkandla forest for burial,and the war between his USUTHU and Zibhebhu continued.Cetshwayo's son Dingizulu was heir to the throne,was proclaimed King of the Zulu,s on the 20th of April 1884.

"Lisale kahle Maqhawe amakhulu Ka Mthwakazi ngiyalihlonipha ngokukhalipha kwenu okungaka." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
----------------------

<small>[ 25.09.2003, 19:31: Message edited by: thrower ]</small>

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#75 - 09/25/03 05:21 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mfowethu I have enjoyed every moment of our discussion.

You have given me much food for thought.

May I offer one small morsel in return.

King Shaka died violently.

Kingkiller Dingane died violently.

King Cetshwayo died violently.

Neither Mashobane's son or his son died violently though many were prepared to die violently in their defence.

I think this means something but I am not sure what it means.

.Thanks for a good debate.

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#76 - 09/25/03 06:28 PM Re: Attention: Administrator
thrower Offline
Sakhamuzi

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
Marcus my Brother
I think what you have raised means that this son of Mashobana did a wise move by distancing himself from the Ngqwele Tshaka,if not he might have died violently himself,does it sink now.?
All in all uyangibulala imbambo the way you describe Dingane.

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