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#7372 - 07/08/04 11:33 AM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Cde Potsh

But potshoza you know that in a democratic arrangement ordinary people are the king. If the people on the ground like me and you need a federal system and the leadership does not want, it follows that such a leadership ceases to represent me and you and we are free to "fire" them through electing leaders who stand for our vision. We have seen the dangers of centralised governance, abakithi bathi "ukubona kanye yikubona kabili".

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#7373 - 07/08/04 11:50 AM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
Does the majority of MDC followers want anything to do with what they view as a tribalistic party?

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#7374 - 07/08/04 11:54 AM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
The problem is that ZAPU - at least one of the three ZAPUs, ZAPU (Siwela) - made extremely aggressive statements regarding the MDC.

In the Parliamentary election one ZAPU (Siwela) man threatened to decapitate the MDC election agent Patrick Nabanyama.

It is difficult to see this sort of statement as a promising basis for cooperation between parties.

I am not sure whether this brave gentleman's death was linked to ZAPU (Siwela) vets or those of ZANU PF.

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#7375 - 07/08/04 11:59 AM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Cde Potsh,

Remember the majority of MDC supporters right now is our very own people (remember MDC won virtually anything in Mat'land), now we are saying to the MDC our people are not cheap (they are not political pawns or levers who can be used only to unseat Mgaxa), our people have an agenda: federation which will disguise our real objective: secession. Its as simple as that. That message can only be effective and emphatic if our people unite under one banner and speak with one baritone voice within the coalition.

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#7376 - 07/08/04 12:09 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Lobengula Offline
Nkosi
*****

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
Mtshede

Much as you obviously know, the people of Mat'land are not just Siwela or his buddy whom as you say was wielding a dangerous axe promising to liquidate some MDC people. There is no guarantee that such a fellow won't turn the axe to you or me if we differ with him in terms of viewpoints. Now because these axe wielding ZAPUs (eg Zapu-Siwela), it is the more reason why we should formulate a united front like MAPU so as to weed out such spear wielding fellows.
The action of such an individual is obviously not different from a bush of clenched fists puntuating the air as is routinely demonstrated by violent ZANU-PF thugs.

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#7377 - 07/08/04 12:23 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Muntongenakudla Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Mtubatuba
Lobengula and Mtshede!

Big up guys! You're the men! The undisputed visionaries! I learn everyday from you 2 gentlemen.

Keep it up peerless kinsmen!

uMntongenakudla kaNgogwane waKwaDlangezwa.
Inkwali yenkosi.

Inxangiphilile.
KwelikaMthaniya.

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#7378 - 07/08/04 12:25 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Potshoza Offline
Nduna

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 481
Loc: Leamington Spa
The MDC may have won more seats in Matabeleland but I am not sure if there are more MDC followers from Mthwakazi than there are from Mashonaland.

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#7379 - 07/08/04 03:50 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Jazelindizayo Offline
Nduna
*

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 388
Loc: At large
A contributor above (Original thrower) undertakes to suggest that one should support a political party with the same zeal and fervour as one does a local football team. Quite clearly this is misguided to say the least, for supporting a football team requires blind faith, unquestioning loyalty and undying faith and belief approaching religious zeal, to stick with that football team through thick and thin, win, lose or draw. Support for a political party cannot, in essence and for the marjority of people, be cast in the narrow terms of blind faith and unquestioning loyalty since it leads one to voting for a party that may very well be long past it "best before" date. Of course each and every political party will have its band of zealots and fanatics but these should be in the minority of the population. Blind faith and unquestioning allegiance have no place ina democratic dispensation. For the marjority the decision whether to vote for a party or not should be based on pragmatism (and not dogma) and practical considerations i.e which party is best placed to give rise to conditions that enable one to meeet ones's aspirations. Thus casting a vote in any one election for a particular party does not neccessarily imply life long sympathy to that party. To that end is it correct to describe those that voted for the MDC in the elections of June 2000 as life-long supporters of the MDC?

Are not where we are now precisely because of blind faith and unquestioning loyalty to one political party???

Lobengula - it is patently not true that the marjority of MDC supporters are of Mthwakazi origin. The concerns expressed above of conflating casting a vote in an election and being a lifelong supporter not withstanding a survey of the 2000 elections results reveals the following :-
MDC votes in Mat South - 91,747
Zanu votes in Math Sout - 56,165
Total votes cast in Mat South - 154,636

Mat North
MDC - 105,492
Zanu-pf - 30,062
total votes cast - 143,425

Bulawayo
MDC - 142,379
Zanu-pf - 22,350

The total number of MDC votes in Matebeleland as a whole was 339618

The total number of MDC votes in the elections was - 1,171,051. This means that Matebeleland in toto represented less than 30% of the total votes received by the MDC.


In general a lot has been said about secession and federalism in this site over the past few days and months. Personally speaking the debate has generated much heat but very little light. I have read that Zapu must be revived to carry the fight to Mgodoyi but i have not been told how exactly Zapu will carry this fight.In another thread, an august gentleman (whose name I shall not mention for fear of beig accused of lauching a vitriolic personal attack) has had the temerity to suggest that the MDC has done nothing about issues and matters dear to Matebeleland. He cites lack progress vis a vis the completion of Nust, the pipeline from the Zambezi and a whole host of developmental issues as evidence of MDC ineptitude. Implict in his posting is the subliminal suggestion that had people voted for his Zapu then things might have been different. Yes a vote for his Zapu in 2000 would have meant that as we speak NUST would be done and dusted, the piple line would be well on its way Bulawayo from the Zambezi. Of course this is patently not true his Zapu like the MDC that he condemns would have done as much as the MDC - precisely nothing about these issues save for a few empty speeches that no one would have paid any attention to in parliament. The august gentleman is palying fast and loose with the truth here, he is a playing a game not of politics but POLITRICKS (!) I suspect and strongly so that the gentleman knows fully well that the MDC has done nothing about these issues because the MDC does not have the wherewithal to do otherwise - so too his beloved Zapu since neither party would be the party of and in government. This is because the system currently in place is such that only a party in government has the wherewithal to influence governement policy and its implementation.

I have read how Zapu won the hearts and minds of the people in election 2000. That statement leaves me confused - Whose hearts and whose minds did Zapu win? Didn't Zapu fail to win a single seat in the very region whose hears and minds it had won? Far from winning the hearts and minds, Zapu's dismal perfomance in those elections seems more like a slap in the face, a kick in the teeth and a jackboot up the bollocks (excuse my French)

I have read that the Shona are not to be trusted- I have read that to a man, woman and child the Shona are united by their disdain, distrust, disgust, and utter disregard for things and people Mthwakazi. I have been told that coursing in Shona veins is not blood but hatred for the people Mthwakazi and all that they stand for. In essence Shona people should only be trusted in so far as one can throw however millions of them there are. Yet astonishingly I am told that the way forward to a Ndebele utopia is through peaceful and mediated negotiation with these very same demagogues!!!!! Something somewhere is not quite right and someone somewhere is not quite telling the truth. Either that or there is a lack of joined up thinking!!

I have read that Ndebele people are perpetual and perennial victim amongst others- victims of nationalism and Shona men impregnating Ndebele wome at every turn- left, right and center. Personally speaking I have no knowledge of a single Ndebele woman who has been impregnated by a Shona man. I have not met a single one and neither have my friends and acquintances!! So where exactly are these hordes of women with their bastard children? Where are they hiding? Why are they hiding? And that is not all to top this incredible story I am told that independence for Matebeleland is the way to go. But I am not told how independence will stop Shona men from planting their dirty seed in our clean Matebele women unless of course the new independent Matebeleland is a police state that will ethnically cleanse the region faster than you or I can say "boo"

I read of people talking of constituences, stating their views as if they are doing so for and on behalf of a people. I have always laboured under the impression that here at Inkundla the views and opinions that we express are our own and that none of us have a constituency or a mandate.

Speaking of constituences and a mandate a new website has been spawned. I am of course referring to the UMR website. I have had occasion to speak to a few friends, relatives and acquaintances unfortunate enought to be stuck in Mgodoyiland. None of them have heard of this august organisation! Of course my straw poll is highly unscientific and is therefore not representative of the whole of Matebeleland but get this, UMR is an organisation that is fighting and campaigning for the rights of the people of Matebeleland. Surely at least one of my friends and family ought to have heard of them by now after all these people are championing their fight and their cause. But nada, squat, zilch absolutely nothing at all. It is either my friends and family are one ignorant bunch or UMR is an organisation that exists in cyberspace. Gee, whizz how dandy is that - get few geeky, pimply and spotted nerdish friends, set up a web site and hey presto we have an organistion that no one has heard of fighting for the independence of Matebeleland!!!! Something somewhere is not quite right

What we have here is a bunch of the elite and privileged few, however sincere, pontificating about the fate of the under priviledged and the disadvantaged marjority. Thus it is taken as a given that the people of Matebeleland want a federal state or indeed independence when there is not a shred of evidence that backs this up, that Zapu is much beloved and that we are all slavishly loyal to it. The problem with many of the things that I read here are that the solutions that one reads here are top-down solutions i.e the elite and the priviledged few have assumed the mantle that they know better and know what is good for the many even if the many do not yet know it!!!! Federalism is a 100% certainity writes one august writer. Indeed it is since it would be campaigned for on a false prospectus namely that of a utopian dream of streets paved in gold and coated in diamonds, of a land of flowing milk and bountiful honey once the heinous Shona have been sent packing across the Shangani. Indeed whither Zimbabwe, whither Matebeleland or should that be wither Zimbabwe

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#7380 - 07/08/04 06:12 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Sheik Mthembo Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 629
Loc: The People's Republic of Mthwa...
Nampo abanye bekhuluma into engalungile nje!

Abanye lapha basaphota uTswangilayi who was part of a system that committed genocide kwabakithi and he held a post then kuZanu PF!

Who is a better devil Twangison or Dabengwa?


To me Dabengwa would be a better devil!

Tswangison is not being condemned for his support of a tyrant who massacred our people in their thousands but Dabengwa is condemned in the most vile language eyesabisayo.

uTswangison lona is a Zanu PF rebel. A disgruntled Zanu PF rebel for that matter. In the Zanu PF eyes uyindodana yolahleko nje. This does not mean that he is not their 'own'. He is but ufuna iState House okwamanje.

It can be argued that uTswangison's hands are full of the blood of our people. He was part of a system that was ochestrated to kill thousands of our people.

I have not respect for him.

uTwangison wenu lona uke wasitshekela emakhanda thina abakaMthwakazi sesimnike amavoti, wasitshela ukuthi uMgabe was his hero!

Etsho nje ekhuluma ngezikhathi ekulunga leZanu ngama 80's abantu bakithi bebulawa! Amanyala la!

Therefore amadlabuzana lawo abanye abalawo okuthethisa uDabengwa in the strongest terms possible bawathatha ngaphi while they seek to protect uTswangison, their dear leader who was part of a Matebele blood letting genocidal regime!

Yikho ukuba ngoJonathan Moyo lokhu asebevikela uMgabe ngamadlabuzana esabisayo. This is disappointing.

Nangu uNdoda kuqina lo ubeselungeni lezisebenzi zelizwe elesikhundla khona, ngitsho ukuthi avule owakhe umlomo ukuthi izisebenzi zikaMthwakazi ziyabulawa. He did not say so or seek to protect the those workers because they belonged to a 'wrong' ethnic group and therefore it was not his duty to stand up for them and speak for their protection. He failed to use his position to exercise the principle of beneficence for the the Mthwakazi workers.

Now this chap is hailed as a dear leader by some!

Bantu bakithi lingakhohlwa!

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#7381 - 07/08/04 06:37 PM Re: New Appointments: Zanu Byo Exec
Mtshede Offline
Ndunankulu

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 632
Loc: London
Mnto if I have not made plain enough before that I regard you as a prodigy of reason and eloquence I hope this makes it plain now.

Historically my community has been associated with the politics of "divide and rule".

Therefore it is all the more incumbent on me to encourage unity amongst us as committed Mthwakazians now and I very much hope that we can all move together to an integrated front.

In this spirit Mr Chairman I have to agree with your comments regarding Dumiso Dabengwa.

I would suggest there is a clear enormous divide between a man like Dabengwa - after the late Masuku Mgo's highest profile political prisoner -and the likes of Muzvanifundo Moyo who clearly embraces the regime on the most personally corrupt and opportunist of grounds.

I hold no special brief for him but there is no doubt that Dabengwa is a man who is between a rock and a very hard place indeed.

I believe that if he were to sneeze at the wrong moment Mgo's minions would see him six feet under.

I don't envy him his situation.

I very much hope that at some point his personal circumstances will allow him to cross the battlefield to his natural constituency.

Indeed one can only hope that if he has eyes and ears aimed at this forum he will understand that he has no need to doubt that he will be warmly welcomed.

Let us deal with enemies and underminers without love.

Let us win ourselves friends and supporters with love.

This is a shrewd strategy.

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