FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD

Posted by: welly

FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/09/08 02:27 PM

I thought it would be beneficial if we looked to define the three parameters above. and let the chips fall where they may fall.

FATE: Vele lokhu okuzokwenzakala, namuhla nakusasa nanini nanini. Singathi kuyobe kuzaba njalo noma umuntu engenzani.

LUCK: Inhlanhla yini ngokwayo. I will not endeavour to define it ngoba okweqiniso angazi ukuthi inhlanhla yini ngokwayo?

THE WILL OF GOD: Lapho ngingathi mina ngithi lokhu Unkulunkulu afuna kwenzakale yikho okhwenzakalayo.

Ngakho lokhu kusele ukuthi sikudingisise ukubana yini okubusa emtwini njalo isiphetho yini ngesimo leso mayelana ngazo lezi izinto.
Posted by: Jazelindizayo

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/09/08 02:53 PM

Welly
If
Quote:
FATE: Vele lokhu okuzokwenzakala, namuhla nakusasa nanini nanini. Singathi kuyobe kuzaba njalo noma umuntu engenzani


and
Quote:
THE WILL OF GOD: Lapho ngingathi mina ngithi lokhu Unkulunkulu afuna kwenzakale yikho okhwenzakalayo.


therefore it follows that Fate = The Will of God
Luck(y)/ unlucky is perhaps a state of mind - matter of perception (rather than being) on how things have turned out. i.e ukudobha imali when you are down to your last cent= lucky but umalahlekelwa yimali that you were depending on to see you through the week = unlucky. But both events using the logic above must be The Will of God.
Thus intoni ebusayo empilweni yomuntu = The Will of God.
Does this then mean that when people do bad things - genocide, cruelity to children etc they are all doing God's will? If that is the case then how can God be a loving God if it is his will that bad things happen?
Posted by: mpumelelo101

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/09/08 03:43 PM

i will try to define them "atheistically", using 9/11 as an example
FATE: the projected/resultant output given certain controllable-inputs;the fate of the hijackers was death!
LUCK: a random unexpected positive result given little/unrelated/negative input. those who missed their flights were lucky!
UNLUCK: a random unexpected negative result given little/positive/related input.those who got into their flights were unlucky!
THE WILL OF GOD; any result(neg/pos) beyond your control regardless of input.that 9/11 happened was the will of GOD,as he is the only one who knew it(since creation) and could have stopped it well in advance(of even seconds before impact)!
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/10/08 04:30 PM

I have been doing some study on this and this is what i agree with



There are two clear and very different meanings for the term ?will of God? in the Bible. We need to know them and decide which one is being used here in Romans 12:2. In fact, knowing the difference between these two meanings of ?the will of God? is crucial to understanding one of the biggest and most perplexing things in all the Bible, namely, that God is sovereign over all things and yet disapproves of many things. Which means that God disapproves of some of what he ordains to happen. That is, he forbids some of the things he brings about. And he commands some of the things he hinders. Or to put it most paradoxically: God wills some events in one sense that he does not will in another sense.


1. God?s Will of Decree, or Sovereign Will

This Overall so to speak Will of God is immutable and cannot ever be changed thwarted it is done by all creation.



And don?t miss the very crucial point here that it includes the sins of man. Herod, Pilate, the soldiers, the Jewish leaders?they all sinned in fulfilling God?s will that his Son be crucified (Isaiah 53:10). So be very clear on this: God wills to come to pass some things that he hates.

Here?s an example from 1 Peter. In 1 Peter 3:17 Peter writes, ?It is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God?s will, than for doing evil.? In other words, it may be God?s will that Christians suffer for doing good. He has in mind persecution. But persecution of Christians who do not deserve it, is sin. So again, God sometimes wills that events come about that include sin. ?It is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God?s will

2. God?s Will of Command

Now the other meaning for ?the will of God? in the Bible is what we can call his ?will of command.? His will is what he commands us to do. This is the will of God we can disobey and fail to do. The will of decree we do whether we believe in it or not. The will of command we can fail to do. For example, Jesus said, ?Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven? (Matthew 7:21). Not all do the will of his father. He says so. ?Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.? Why? Because not all do the will of God.

So in a nut shell one to have Wisdom has to clearly study these truths to understand what is revealed about God and to see that everything we all do Is the decretive Will of God and yet still sin is the disobedience of Gods Will of command as in the Law.

Actually no human being apart from Christ can or will ever fullfill Gods Will of command because we are all essentially born sinners.

Excepts from John Piper "from Desiring God "





Posted by: omnyama

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/12/08 04:28 PM

Welly, mfundisi,
Long time! Thank you for your post above!
"fate", "luck", "misfortune" etc etc. There really are no randomn events. All events were planned by God to happen as they do! To put it another way, God is the cause of all things! This is refered to as God's "decretive will". It is what God has decreed. God's decretive will is not revealed to us(before hand and the reasons for certain events).
Then there is God's revealed will! This is called his perceptive will. This includes his commands, wisdom for living for us and other information about ourselves, origins etc etc. This is the Bible! We know that God says, "Thou shalt not commit murder!" from the Bible. We also know that God wants us to work, from the Bible! etc etc.
Does God's perceptive will contradict his decretive will? Of course not!! God does all things for His own glory! If all things are for his glory, then all things "agree" in bringing him glory. They do not contradict each other. God is glorified in all things that he has purposed to happen. His decretive will has to do with what he has planned from eternity to come to pass to bring himself glory in all he has created! If God contradicted himself it would mean that he will not be glorified. That is impossible of course.
We often cannot understand why certain things happen to us or to other people! They often do not make sense. But this does not imply that they are just randomn or meaningless! The universe is so huge, in order to understand how all things fit together we would need quite a bit of omniscience!
All that God does is right. Infact we define what is right by either what he commands (his perceptive will) or by what he does!
But how can evil glorify God? Since these events are God's decretive will, we do not know how he will bring himself glory through some gruesome murder ... but we can be sure that will be the case in the end. An example is the murder of Crist by the Jewish religious posse. The death of Christ brought salvation to his people. The murder accomplished God's purpose. Joseph was sold to Egypt by his mean brothers! But God saved Israel when there was famine in Cannan. Joseph became prime minister in Egypt, and supplied his family with food.
Does then this mean whatever happens, happens ... it does not matter what we wish for?(Fatalism) NO! NO! NO! God reveals that we should pray and ask for what we desire. His revealed will is what we should concern ourselves about and not his decretive will. The Bible does not teach fatalistic passivity. That is why those who say we must just sit and let amaTshona walk all over us are speaking straight from the devil. Izinto kazilungi zodwa. We must work towards what we desire. UNkulunkulu uzafeza izifiso nezikhalazo zethu esule inyembezi zethu!

Read http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=247

omnyama
Posted by: Nqobile_Mbali

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/12/08 09:53 PM

FATE!!
LUCK!!
GOD'S WILL!!
ZOE!!
Pastor Chris explains all these in incredible detail and in an enjoyable and crear way!
HE TRULLY IS A GODSEND IN AFRICA!!!
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/13/08 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Nqobile_Mbali
FATE!!
LUCK!!
GOD'S WILL!!
ZOE!!
Pastor Chris explains all these in incredible detail and in an enjoyable and crear way!
HE TRULLY IS A GODSEND IN AFRICA!!!


Absolutely not, Pastor Chris is a false prophet apostle or whatever he claims to be. he teaches that his followers are gods and can map out their destinies. Blatantly he is evil and a messenger of the devil. He preaches prosperity forgetting its God who descides who gets rich or poor. God has appointed all things in their place irreversibly.
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/13/08 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: omnyama
That is why those who say we must just sit and let amaTshona walk all over us are speaking straight from the devil. Izinto kazilungi zodwa. We must work towards what we desire. UNkulunkulu uzafeza izifiso nezikhalazo zethu esule inyembezi zethu!

omnyama


Omnyama my brother Grace to you and thank you for the well presented posting. I concurr with your learning on the subject although I beg to disagree on some aspects of what I have quoted above.

So we are in agreement there are no random events as it comes to what God is doing and also that the Bible does not teach fatalism. So what does the Bible teach about what we Believers should do when amaShona walk over amaNdebele.

Certainly the Bible is very clear my brother and teaches we should imitate what he who created us Jesus Christ did when he was reviled by his own creatures. Christ did not repay evil for evil he left revenge to his Father surely should we not also do the same knowing God knows all and all things are to him. Should we be not like Job who insisted against his wifes advice that we should acept evil from the lord as much as we acept the good knowing the Judge of both the living and the dead shall do right.

What about turning the cheek did not Christ teach this. Are we not supposed to defeat evil by doing good to them who revile us. Did not the creator himself subdue himself to dictator pontius pilate whom he created himself and put in authority. Did not the creator give a comparison how non believers love their own surely we who are true believers like me and you we dont get eternal rewards for loving the brotherhood which we are commanded to do we are to Love them who are non believers and seek our death then by so doing surely the unbelievers will give glory to God in his visitation so says scripture.

The examples my brother are endless to show that it is Gods will that we believers should suffer hate and being walked over by evil men for various reasons like tribalism, race and religion but we are to commit this persecussion unto the living God knowing it is his will or they would not do it anyway remmember there are no random events. Knowing too that God wills the actions of evil men to act wickedly and still brings them to account now and in future. So faith comes by hearing gods Word and faith is acting upon Gods Word so let us believers act in faith believing and not be caught up in segregation of people according to Ndebele, Shona or the Like. Ndebele people are just as evil as Shonas are we not all born of Adam. How be it we who are now Born of God the creator should never ever ever be found concorcting with heathens in tribalism,revenge,hatred of our persecutors. Our God is Love and has willed we should Love our Shonas who walk over us because we are Ndebele and we will receive the eternal crown of righteousness as we have walked in the perfect will of God.

Amen
Posted by: mpumelelo101

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/14/08 06:52 AM

[qoute=welly] God has appointed all things in their place irrevesibly [/qoute].
This is utter rubbish my friend.GOD is is highly incosistent and incompetent.right from genesis to revelation, he is a God of "second chances". he is a GOD of mass punishment(more like the witchdoctor's use of "ingozi")!!
genesis 6vs6&7 after noticing man's wickedness he vows to wipe ALL that is living from the earth.man and animals-for i am grieved that i have made them!He saves noah, only for the very same wickedness to return!!HE has nothing which is cast in stone!!
eg he says if you respect your elders your days on earth will be increased, doesn't this show you ukuthi you can map out your destiny if you follow Gods ways.eg your days on earth are not fixed and irrevesible!! pastor chris is right.
GOD is an excuse for both the good and the evil. if you survive an accident, you found favour in his eyes, if you don't it was his WILL!!!
if pastor chris is an evil messenger of the devil, GOD is an evil perpetuator of evil. why does he allow a rape every 8 seconds and a 50 murders per day(in SA),400 years of slavery etc?
Posted by: Mthakathi27

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/14/08 08:32 AM

Welly you have the plot, you are one of most dangerous people i have ever heard of. Your madness needs to be stopped by all means necessary. You are misleading people in the name of God. I will give you an advise my friend, those misleading and self-fefeatist sentiments are only suitable for your wife and son.
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/14/08 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Mthakathi27
Welly you have the plot, you are one of most dangerous people i have ever heard of. Your madness needs to be stopped by all means necessary. You are misleading people in the name of God. I will give you an advise my friend, those misleading and self-fefeatist sentiments are only suitable for your wife and son.


As usual you have no strength to approach God on his turf and you will take a swipe at a mortal like me. I stand firm in what God has said about himself in the Bible and if that does not suit you mate tough. You will sooner or later have to appear before The God of all ages and account for every single word you say. If it pleases the Lord that I should receive slander from you and anyone else for that matter , let his will be done. My soul is in his hands let him do whatever he sees good to do to me.

If you hate what The God of the Bible is doing why dont you curse him here show yourself to be mightier than he who created heaven and earth. Why bother with a sinful human like me. You get gratification of swearing at me and my familly well mate I cant give you eternal life. Make no mistake as much as you cannot ever reverse the fact that you were born is as much as you will have to face Jesus Christ on his terms not yours. Indeed may you find favour ,grace and forgiveness in him for without on Judgement day it would have been better you were never born. You people seem to relax you do not notice that hell is real as i am real and you are real. You may hide under these names on the forum but God sees everything and knows everything.

If i were you I would spend more time reading the Bible and being reconsiled to God than waste your energy taking out your stress on me. I cant give you life and no matter how much you ignore the Bible it is the standard that is used to determine your eternal destiny either in heaven with God or burning in hell to eternity. There will be no anihalation of individuals but a constant abode in the lake of fire forever and ever God cannot lie.
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/14/08 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: mpumelelo101
[qoute=welly] God has appointed all things in their place irrevesibly [/qoute].
eg he says if you respect your elders your days on earth will be increased, doesn't this show you ukuthi you can map out your destiny if you follow Gods ways.eg your days on earth are not fixed and irrevesible!! pastor chris is right.
GOD is an excuse for both the good and the evil. if you survive an accident, you found favour in his eyes, if you don't it was his WILL!!!
if pastor chris is an evil messenger of the devil, GOD is an evil perpetuator of evil. why does he allow a rape every 8 seconds and a 50 murders per day(in SA),400 years of slavery etc?


On your first point indeed if anyone fullfilled all of God Laws, God would indeed reward him with all the benefits promised in the Law. However not me or you or anyone else in all of humanity ever did fullfill the demands of the Law except Christ. We are born sinners and as such the Law of God cannot help you at all but to condem you to death. So never ever approach God on the basis of his Law you will die. Thats why people like Pastor Chris who tell you to do Laws so you can get favours from God actually commit you to death because you can never fullfill the Law. We are called to point people to Jesus Christ who only can give life not the Law.Notice that when you fail to do the Law then God must be just and kill you or else he would be unrighteous not to.

Indeed God has decreed the occurrance of rape,murder and all evil that exists for his own purposes for example the suffering of Job, Jesus Christ and as such this is good. Indeed suffering and evil is the biggest question there is that pertains to humanity and the existence of God. We do no service to humanity by ignoring it but rather to explore what the Bible teaches on this aspect. Indeed the Bible teaches exstensively on it I would advice you start by googling it on the internet and get the thoughts of great theologians who have written on the subject so you can have a well informed thought on it.

Being emotional about evil does not make it go away besides The Bible has said more evil shall befall us so we do well to learn about these things.

The more you see these facts then you will indeed see the neccesity of Jesus Christ to die on the cross that anyone may have life. No one can ever come before God unless they worship Jesus Christ in truth and everyone needs God without whom there is death that awaits you.
Posted by: welly

Re: FATE,LUCK OR THE WILL OF GOD - 09/14/08 11:33 AM

My brother omnyama thanks for the article for the link you provided. It would be great if everyone read it than argue ponts on The Will of God based on their thoughts and emotions rather than on what the Bible teaches. Of course without the Bible I have different ideas what is Gods will and what is not. However the Bible speaks differently and it does us Christians well to study what the Bible says about god and not our thoughts.