Inkundla
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/02/03 07:57 PM
It is a Saturday.It is the month of May 2003. Me and my friend are having a relaxed weekend right at the capital of England. He has joined me in my place, mid-morning. We are downing a few of castle largers and helping ourselves to imhwabha(dried meat), which we got from a certain store in central london which sells home foods. <p>The sun is bright and the weather is lovely. Sinyikinya lapha sixukuxe lapha. It is fun. Later on we decide to go to the pub and down more. We are discussing the situation back home and how our kith and kin are suffering. <p>We get to the pub and we get our pints(castle) and as we make our way to sit down to a particular table, some two guys, sitting opposite to our intended table, soon talk to us and ask us where we come from?<p>My friend replies that we come from 'kwaBulawayo'. They laugh at this and feel we should say we come from Zimbabwe. But we are quick to point out that we needed to be specific of where we come from, amid laughter. I gues you can tell where the conversation will lead to. <p>We are keen to maintain telling them that we come from kwaBulawayo in a country so called Zimbabwean. <p>They are in their mid twenties. They heard us talking in our venecular, isiNdetshu and could identify us quickly. We greet each other and sit around a table together. Some sips, some more sips and soon we find ourselves discussing Zimbabwe in more detail. As we do so we are joined by some Zambians and the discussion gets even more interesting!<p>These guys are from the North and they are keen to discuss politics back home. I ask them what they think is the solution to the catastrophic situation back home?<p>One is quick to point out that the solution is to get rid of Mugabe. My friend leans forward and tells him that this is a half baked solution. The soultion is to get rid of the system in Zimbabwe, created by Mugabe and Zanu Pf and the system starts with individuals from the North! <p>He points out that the guy needs to 'get rid of himself first'. The chap is puzzled by this. My friend elaborates and then delves into the tribal politics which every Shona has supported Mugabe for , for all these years, that they have been and continue to be part of it. He points out that getting rid of Mugabe is not the solution!<p>He goes on to point out that individuals from the North need to be reconstructed from the virulent and tribalist hegemonist system that is in Zimbabwe!<p>He quickly gets into the massacres and the fact that when these things happened they never cried out 'get rid of Mugabe' only now that they are affected!<p>The guys tell us that the Guhurahundi issues were pure genocide but would not be drawn to say they were part of it. When pressed to say why they never protested and asked for getting rid of Mugabe, they say they were very young to do so! Fair point!<p>We then ask about their parents, whether they think they ever protested at that human carnage by their fellow sons and daughters in Guhurahundi? The answer is that they never protested and goals shift now to, 'we were never told the truth'<p>When asked if Simba Makoni was to leader would they be in a position to support a 'reformed'(this is a deleberate word that was chosen' and these chaps said yes they will! <p><br>When the discussion gets more interesting, the guys apologise and leave. They have something to attend to.<p>The striking thing about this is that the discussion was very cordial but we were miles apart in our thinking!<p>They think that they are not part of the problem in Zimbabwe, but we think they are. They think Mugabe, only Mugabe alone is the problem in Zimbabwe, we think Mugabe and Zanu Pf and the Shona system, which Mugabe has been at the helm of it is the root cause of most of the problems in Zimbabwe!<p>And indeed in this conversation what was more apparent is that there was lack of trust and honesty in discussing these issues from their part! They tended to shift goal posts in the discussion and this was another evidence enough that these chaps can never be trusted!<p>Now the crucial thing is this? Are we ever gonna converge in our thinking with these chaps? This brings me to the Federal Question posed by honourable Mpho in his excellent piece of work posted here!<p>Can we really co-exist with these chaps? Is Federalism the answer to our problems? Federalism becomes irrelevant where there is no mutual trust and where honesty lacks.<p>Therefore kumele sihlubuke bakwethu!<p><br>Hlasela!<br>
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/02/03 08:02 PM
Corrections; On 'reformed' should be 'reformed' ZPF!
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/03/03 05:14 AM
Mazinyane eSilo soHlanga:<p>Ngiyalibulisa lonke jikelele, njalo ngithemba liphilile lapho elihleli khona. Awuboni ke mina bengithethe ikhefu kuzinsukwana ezedluleyo, ngihambahamba kuleli engihleli kulo. Kuyangijabulisa kabi ukuphindela khona lapha endlini kaMthwakazi, indluyengwe mpela! Umthunzi ophumula amajongosi!!<p>Udaba lolu okhuluma ngalo Mgcinisihlalo lunzima, lujulile, njalo lujiyile. Ludaba oluthelela abetshabi nezikhothamathe zabo umhedehede. Akukho into eyethusa abetshabi njengodaba lokuvuselelwa kukaMthwakazi wemandulo. Khepha ke, iqiniso yikuthi siyeza isiqhotho, noma kunjani. Amalangabi kaMthwakazi azabembesa abahaqaze bawuhlabe umkhosi libalele ilanga. Wena owake wabheka inhlanzi itshelwe ngamanzi uyazi ukuthi kuzobanjani ngemini yakhona. Bazahlanhlatha bagcwale amahlathi abafokazana.Bazofisa ukuthi ngabe abazalwanga. Bazofisa ukuthi ngabe umhlaba uyavuleka ubaginye, banyamalale. Cishe ngilibale, kahle kengigcizelele ukuthi ke yena uZulu le eNingizimu Afrika uyibhekile ngamehlo wonke lendaba yeSizwe. Sengike ngakhuluma labo abanye bethu abaphuma le emva. Kukhanya ayibaphathi kahle lendaba. Njalo bathi bona kuningi abakufunda kulesisiga esehlela amazinyane esilo soHlanga. Bheka ke bayazi njalo bayasho ukuthi yena uMthwakazi ngemvelo ufana lezinkomo ezavula inqaba ngezimpondo, zafohla kunxitshiwe, zahamba! Akukho ngisho lento eyodwa nje enganqabela iSizwe ekugqibeni lomsebenzi omkhulukazi osufeziwe. <p>Kuyiqiniso mpela ukuthi izikliwi zesitshabini zaziwa ngokuguqula imibala yazo ngengonwabu. Kuyimvelo yabo lokhu, njalo akufanelanga kusethuse kumbe kusimangaze, cha. Indunandini yabo le engutshalibegi nxahandini babeyithanda kabi kuleminyaka engamatshumi amabili eyedluleyo. Utshalibegi nabetshabi jikelele bekungamathe lolimi, mfowethu. Bekuzimbila zantabanye. Bebemkhonza abetshabi utshalibegi, ikakhulu ngenkathi ebulala abantu bakithi ngezidlova lenswelaboya zabo ezingamagwalandini. Amabutho ahlasela izakhamizi. Amabutho ahlasela, abulale, njalo abhinye omame nabodade bakaMthwakazi. Ngamabutho mhlobobani ahlasela izakhamizi ezingelazikhali?? Ngamabutho mhlobobani abhinya omame nabodade beSizwe? Injongo yabo isegcekeni kuyewonke olamehlo. Akusimfihlo ukuthi ngaleyonkathi utshalibegi ubeyisithandwa sabetshabi bonke jikelele. Bheka ke namhlanje sebethi bona babengazi! Kambe?! Hhayi bo, uMthwakazi akasilo usane! Abanye bathi uMthwakazi likhehla, ngofuzo langenjulo yakhe. Uma bethi babengazi, injongo yabo inye nje. Bafuna ukusivala amehlo, basidonsele kwelinye ilangabi njalo....ilangabi elingumbuso lobudlova besitshabini. Uma singakwamukela lokhu, kusho ukuthi siyiziwula, iziphukuphuku ezingaziyo la ezivela khona. Kambe, lina mazinyane amaqhawe?? Amaqhawe afana labo phela oMagwegwe Fuyane, oMgandane Dlodlo, oMncumbatha Khumalo, oMbiko kaMasuku, oLotshe kaHlabangana, oGwabalanda Mathe, oManyewu Ndiweni, oMpini, oMkhaliphi, kanye lawo wonke amabutho esilo soHlanga, afana leNgubo, oNsukamini, oMahlogohlogo, njalo njalo. Ilukhuni lindaba, bakwethu. Obabamkhulu bakhuphuka le emva bebhikise amabombo eNyakatho ngoba babengeke bavumelane lobudlwangudlwangu bomfokaGumede. Kambe nisho ukuthi namhlanje kusafanele sivumelane njalo sicocobise ngaphansi kobudlwangudlwangu besitshabini?? Abokhokho bethu babedla ngamandla! Kwakuyizilo ezimehlw'khwezi. Yibo labo ababebulala inkunzi ngezandla zabo nje.....kungelamikhonto kumbe izagila. Yibo labo abawela uShangane, baguqa ngamadolo....belwela wena nami, izizukulwane zabo. Usapho lwabo.<p>Ngitshele ke wena Mthwakazi wanamhlanje, unaso na isibindi sokuwela uShangane, uguqe ngamadolo, ulwela izizukulwane zakho? Unawo na amandla okubulala inkunzi ngezakho izandla? Uma ungelampendulo kulokhu, kanti vele wena uthembeni? Uthembe usizi lwabetshabi, kumbe uthembe ubugwala bakho? Hhayi bo, zinsizwa nabodade, niyazi nonke nje ukuthi kudala kwakungenje. Akulankinga lapho. Pho, kengibuze, kwehlulani? <p>Ngiyema lapha!<br> <p><br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/03/03 12:43 PM
Ndukuzibomvu- uMbiko kaMadlenya ombona ubuqhawe kayisuye owayefuna ukuhluthulela uLobhengula ubukhosi bakwabo ngenxa yenkethabetshabi? Ayisilo yini leliqhawe lase Jingeni elalisithi lona alisoke libuswe ngumntwana womthanyelo njalo oliSwazi? Ayisiyo yini iNduna kaZwangendaba eyayingafuni abantu abangayisowo maqhawe bakhulume kuMphakathi weSizwe?<br>The Chairman - it would appear that you had an interesting discussion with the gentlemen that you met in the pub. The reasons that they gave for not doing anything about the genocide in Matebeleland (during the genocide) are intriguing to say the least. That is they (the gentleman ) were too young and their parents did not know that the genocide was going on. This begs the very important and telling question - now that they are no longer young but grown up, and their parents are no longer in a blissful state of ignorance about the genocide in Matebeleland, what is it that they are prepared/willing to do about the genocide? What is it that they are willing to do to ensure that, that most heinous of crimes against humanity are never visited upon their land?<br>Is federalism the answer - I think not. Nor do I think that a totally independent state of Matebeleland is the answer. My view is simply that sovereignty is not the solution and would argue that it may be part of the problem.
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/03/03 10:05 PM
Mnumzane ohloniphekayo, Jazi:<p>Bengicela ungichasisele ngokucacileyo, mina vimbandlebe/sanqondo, ukuthi uhloseni ngombuzo wakho mayelana nomfokaMasuku. Ngiyojabula ukuwuphendula umbuzo wakho uma ngingakwazi.Hleze awungizwanga kahle ngaphambili: ukhona umehluko omkhulukazi phakathi kweqhawe nengilosi yasemazulwini. Mina angishongo lakanci mf'ethu ukuthi uMasuku wayengumuntu ongcwele. Engikushileyo yikuthi wabeniqhawe emaqhaweni. Wayeniqhawe phaqa. Okwendaba zobungcwele, hashi nginamahloni ngoba nje angazi....cishe wena unolwazi ngalez'ndaba.<p>Ngiqedile.<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/04/03 09:42 AM
Ndukuzibomvu-bengikakhulumi ngendaba zobungcwele loba ezobungilosi. Begnithi ngike ngibuze ngezenzo zika Mbiko kaMadlenya. Ngasekuqaleni ubuqhawe buka mfoka Madlenya bebungathandabuzwa ikahule mgemva kwezenzo zakhe lebutho lakhe iZwangandaba abakwenza uNdaleka oJingeni. Kunjalo, awukuboni kuyisici esikhulu esigcona igama lesithunzi sika Mbiko Masuku ukuthi wasuka wabangisa umntane Nkosi ubukhosi bakwabo waphosa wadabula isizwe? Awukuboni kulihlazo elikhulu ukuthi umfoka Masuku lona ubelenkethabetshabi yokukhangela isizwe ngehlangothi zalo- abantu weyebabona ubuSutshwanyani, uLobhengula wayembona ubuSwazidini abanye ebabona uTshabi! <br>Ngombono wami omncane bengibona angani izici zakhe ziyedlula ubuqhawe bakhe. Ngaleso sizatho uMbiko bengingeke ngambala phakathi kwamadoda obekade ulobe ngawo.
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/04/03 06:30 PM
Into engingayizwisisi ngawe Jazi yikuthi ubhalela lapha usibonisa ubungcitshi bakho bokusebenzisa amabala ungatsho lutho loba inkundleni ungophikisana lalokho okungahambelani lawe kodwa ungasoze utsho lutho lwakho loba ukholisa ukukhuluma umi emgcweleni.Kusobala kimi nxa ngibala okubhalayo ukuthi awulakho ongakutsho ngaphandle koku dobha into ezincane ezitshiwo ngababhalayo uzenze umkatsho wenkulumo yakho.Maqede nje ungatsho lutho olwakho loba utshengise ukuthi imi ngaluphi.<br>Angazi ke ukuthi ubona engathi lawo majaha ayexoxa lo-chairman acabangani ngolokho okutshoyo.Mina ngedwa ungathi uyangiphica nxa usithi bona abetshabi bathi baza kwenzani ukuthi bangasibulali njalo.Obviously inengi labo lithi bamsulwa ngalolu daba betsho bempentsha ngoba lubathelela amahloni njalo lona luyethusa.Bayethuka njalo ukuthi thina abantu sesisenelisa ukuxoxa ngayo le indaba yokubulawa kwesizwe sakithi singenzanga lutho siletha imibono lokunanzelela ngokusizonda loku siseyisa kwabo.Ngalokho yikho behlala becabanga ukuthi kufuze basibuse loba nini loba enguwuphi wabo okhethwayo.Balegunya ngamacala aseqanjiwe,njalo babona engathi ngeke babe khona phakathi kwethu abangenelisa ukuqoqa isizwe sakithi ukuze sehlukane lamaswina ngenxa yabo abacabanga njengawe.<br>Inkatha yokuqoqa isizwe iqalile,abanjengawe Jazi abangela sure ukuthi bakhothe izihlama zamaswina kumbe bacatshe ezidwabeni zamanina abo angopasi asazi.Iqiniso yikuthi mina lababantu ngiyabazi,emazweni ohlangana labo khona bakukhulumisa ngaso is-mhewu-mhewu sabo lesi with the conviction that all people from Zim. speak their language.Angeke uzwe bezama olwethu ulumi WHY?Ligunya engike ngandulela kulo phambilini.Mina ke sona is-shwepes ngiyasizama kodwa ngeke uzwe ngisithi nkente.Majaha lezintombi zakwa Mthwakazi,lina bohlanga,kumele thina siqoqaneni and pursue our cause.Ukuthi sesisodwa siyakhethana gemihlobo kumbe ngani sizakutshiyela oJazi lokho as long sisebenzela isizwe sakithi. <br> Wona am-short sleeve vele ngeke amelane loku buswa ngowakithi YINDABA mani?
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/05/03 05:09 PM
Sthutha - ngiyabonga amazwi akho othe wangiphendula ngawo. Ngizazama ukuwaphendula loba nje ngimfitshane ekucabangeni lasenqondweni. Angimanga emgceleni mayelana lodaba lolu lokuthi ilizwe lidatshulwe phakathi uMthwakazi azibuse. Ngombono wami oncane angiboni ukuthi ukudatshulwa kwelizwe kuzasiza ngani ekuthuthukiseni impilo zabantu bakwaMthwakazi.Ungangitshela yini Sthutha ukuthi ukudatshulwa kwelizwe kuzalithuthukisa njani elakithi? I do not think that the creation of an independent state of Mthwakazi will not alleviate the yoke of poverty that sits upon the shoulders Mthwakazi. Our views (yours and mine's) differ as to the cause of this poverty in Matebeleland. You and others in this forum would have us believe that poverty is peculiar to Matebeleland, that underdevelopment is unique to Matebeleland and that all this is a result of a stupendous Shona consipiracy. On the other hand my views are that poverty and economic underdevelopment are not unique to Matebeleland. Our respective solutions to these problems therefore differ- unsurprisingly since we have different definitions of what the problem is. And because I do not subscribe to your views, assertions and petty prejudices does not make me umuntu okhotha "izihlama zamaswina kumbe bacatshe ezidwabeni zamanina abo angopasi" Quite frankly, Sthutha, given a choice of ukukhotha isihlama seswina lesihlama sakho I would choose neither. I will simply not be bounced nor duped into answering a bogus call to arms from people whose agenda is not at all clear to me. A call to arms that I do not believe will lead to a better tomorrow for my kith and kin.<br>Ngokucina ngizacela ukubuza Sthutha, kanti ngesikhathi sempi yenkululeko amaShona lamaNdebele babengabambananga yini ukuze balwe lesitha esasi ngondlebezikhanyilanga?<br>
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/06/03 08:01 PM
Yebo Jazi,<p>Into enhle nge NKUNDLA yikuthi yenza bonke abololimi olufanayo baluxoxe.<p>Owako Mthwakazi umhlobo okhuluma isi Ndebele uxoxa ngezinto eziqondane lathi.Wena nxa ungomunye wethu ngethemba usukwazi ukuthi wehlukana lathi njani njalo ngani.Otherwise thats it.<p>Abe tshabi akufuzange abakaMthwakazi babavotele kumbe bayekelelwe bewona in the name of unity.Kutsho ukuthi uBob angaphuma are the peole of Mthwakazi going to sit idle and wait for them to chose their next best to rule us?Does it mean the people of Mthwakazi should not say anything about such things.Amasotsha e Zimbabwe lamapholisa kumele ananzelelwe ngoba laba bantu they are bent on hurt.<br>Who trusts such leadership?Tsotsi leadership.Murderous,tribalists.We may not be obliged to submit to such authority.Ukuthi bona bazibusa njani akufuzange kube yi-problem yethu kodwa thina silowethu umbuso.<br>Wena Jazi uthini vele?<p><p> <p><br> <p><br>
Posted By: Moyo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/07/03 08:36 AM
Ngiyalizwa madoda liya khuluma, njalo kubonakala lingabantu elilolwazi ngembali ye lizwe likaMthwakazi. Kodwa inye nje into elibulalayo, THE HATE WHICH HAS FOUND HOME IN YOUR HEARTS. <p>Liyabona singathi thina kufanele silwele amalungelo ethu ngenhliziyo ezibuhlu angiboni ukuthi kungasifikisa kuphi. <br> The problem in Zim is very intertwined it needs sharp and intelligent approach, failure to do that one can plunge that country into an untold calamity. Now in your discussions you are busy calling hate names you must be aware that Inkundla is an open mundane, anyone who wishes to read can do so at anyone given moment. Who knows may be some of the readers may like contributing in cash or kind, but with the kind of hate that is prevailing in some of us that alone can play a serious draw back. <p>Asizameni ukuza lohlelo olungasoke lusithathe eminye iminyaka elikhulu ukuthi sifinyelele izifiso zethu.
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/09/03 07:49 PM
Moyo,<p>Kuyajabulisa ukuzwa amazwi akho azama ukuthoba lobo buhlungu obuzwayo nxa ubala okutshiwo ngabalobi.Pho ngokubona kwami abako Mthwakazi akufuzange besabe ukuloba ngezinto ezibazwisa ubuhlungu kumbe eziba khubayo nge ngendlela abacabanga ngayo bencenga ukusponswa kumbe ukuphathiswa.Leyo formula yama pacifists has never produced any tangible results in such situations.Unless if you want to be bought out of your agenda.Kutsho ukuthi okuxhopha ilihlo ngabomo kufuze umxolise na?Kufuze sithini ngabantu abavele besizonda kungela sizatho,amasela,ogalatshane,abasibulala bayale loku xolisa even sebeceliwe ukuthi baxolise?Hlelo bani esingaza lalo olwedlula olwazanywa ngumdala Moyo olungasuthisa laba bantu.Ake sizameni ukuthi esikubhalayo kungabi yikusola ababhalayo wena ungasoze uqambe into esobala kumbe ehambelana lokutshiwoyo.<p>Nxa siyisizwe samagwala,halala,bazazibusela o-pasi baze bayephutsha ezphaleni kungela loyedwa othi nyo.Laba qanjiweyo emabhukwini angcwele njenga bantwana beskhosini bayalwa namhlanje ukuze bazivikele.Without ordering anyone to arms,the truth of the matter is that we cannot withstand the onslaught we are currently facing with verbal hopes and wishes or by saying nothing.<p>Loba kungathatha isikhathi esinganani akube sobala kuye wonke osikhulumayo isintu ukuthi opasi bayasizonda,bayasidelela njalo basithatha njengabantwana and therefore in any national agenda we are secod class citizens to them?Ku-Ndosakusa ayzama amajaha lezintombi ukuyi hlahlela lendaba.Ukuthi lesi isiphatho sizasimela kumbe hatshi kuqondane lathi.
Posted By: ntombankala Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/11/03 02:52 PM
Sthutha - uyindoda. Uhlupho nje ohlangene lalo yikuswela amadoda. Amadoda "kawakho" namhlanje Sthutha - malutshwana. Lapha ebulenjini ungathola ambalwa azimiseleyo lazaziyo langayisiwo magwala. <p>Sekungathi ungaba lethuba uhlangane lamadoda. Akhona. Kunengi okwenzakalayo manje. Thina siku frontline. Sihlangana labantu. Nxa ukuleli, ufundeni nge depolyment yamabutho in armoured cars and tanks to crush the stillborn FINAL PUSH? Inkulu lindaba Sthutha. Inkundla le sesiyivalelisa. Kwanele. Nxa uhleli kuleli, umzwile uDamasane lapho ehaya umntaka Magwegwe, uMafuyana emngcabweni. Uthe "Kwanele, Kwanele bo". Sithi kwanele, kwanele.Lala ngokuthula mama. Umsebenzi usalele thina. <p>Abalenyoka zakibo ezibatshela ubugwala, abahlale ngobugwala bakubo. Kwanele, Kwanele.
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/11/03 04:09 PM
Ngiyakhuleka, bobaba labomame, majaha nezintombi, lina bakaMthwakazi. BakaMkhatshwa, okhashwe ngezinde nangezimfushana izinyawo. <p>Udaba lwesizwe lunzima, bakwethu. Sonke siyakwazi lokhu. Ludaba olufuna amadoda doda nabafazi fazi, hashi abantu abahleli emngceleni. Loludaba lufuna abantu abazimiseleyo, njalo abanezibindi zamabhubesi mpela. Lufuna abantu abanesineke nonanzelelo. Bangaki kumphakathi khona napha enkundleni-bulembu abazimiseleyo? Abanesineke? <p>Niyazi, kuthiwa khona ngaphezu kwamafu zikhona izinkanyezi. Amafu la angumbuso wabetshabi kufanele siwaphendle ngobuciko nangonanzelelo. Nokho-ke, uzafumana ukuthi abanye bethu banokwesaba. Besaba nje ngoba abazi ukuthi yintoni engaphezu kwamafu?<br>Ayangqikaza amagwala. Athi kungcono sibuyele emuva, ngoba esesaba abetshabi. Mina ngithi ibani ngamaqhawe. Qiniselani lani we maqhawe, sekuseduze lapho siyakhona. Ngenye imini wonke amaqhawe kaMthwakazi azokwetheswa imiqhele yobuqhawe. Iyeza leyo mini.<p>Ngiqedile.<p><p><p>
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/12/03 01:41 PM
Lingixolele bakwethu. Ngathi ukuyinyikinya lindaba ngabuye nganyobela emlindini. Bengiphathekile zingane zeNkosi!<p>I applaud the contributors to this topic especially the likes of Nduku, S'thutha, Ntomba and company!<p>This is an issue for no show off when discussing it. This is an issue which we should confront with determination and forthrightness. There is no room for doubters and appeasers on this issue. The people from the North have failed to co-exist with us. We have extended, for all these years, under the command of Joshua, the hand of reconciliation and peace, but they will have none of it!<p>Instead they have extended more brutality, more suffering, more exploitation and outright marginalisation of our peoples in the development circles!<p>Those who choose the path of appeasing these people full of hatred of us, whose main aim and purpose in life is to wipe out the Matabelelanders from the face of the earth, should be ashamed of themselves!<p>They can not escape the label of ubuthengisi!<p>This struggle calls for those who are dedicated to the liberation of our people from the oppression of the so called majority in Zimbabwe!<p>Sekwanele Majida! Masihlubuke!<p>Hlasela!
Posted By: Jah Dingani Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/22/03 10:32 PM
anyone who trusts these ars**** is a great joke!<br>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 10:15 PM
I hate to be controversial and I have been keeping my head down as much as possible to avoid upsetting all my sensitive brothers, but there is something I am still waiting to understand on this thread.<p>That is, whether a person who asks a rather dubious question understands his question or could even provide an answer.<p>Obviously Sthutha, the person who was asked the question, has some sympathy with the question or the questioner.<p>So let me go to the root of the question by turning it back to Jazi.<p>Lingixolele ngiphinde ukubuza umbuzo:<p> ngizacela ukubuza Jazelindizyo, kanti ngesikhathi sempi yenkululeko amaShona lamaNdebele babengabambananga yini ukuze balwe lesitha esasi ngondlebezikhanyilanga?<p>Did the likes of Nkomo and even Mkabi ever say they were fighting whites or did they say they were fighting against a racist system?<p>In other words, did they say they were racists, as Jazi seems to be propounding, or did they say they were fighting against racism?<p>Just in the same way today contributor after contributor here says, as I do, that we are not fighting against anyone or anything but a discriminatory and oppressive system.<p>And did anyone ever believe that the result of the Liberation War would be what Zimbabwe has become today?<p>Jazi I am waiting with impatience for your further comments.<p>If you tell me the war was against whites, and the war produced a satisfactory result in the state of the country we have lived in over the last 23 years, then I will understand you better than ever.<p>:-)<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 01:28 PM
Marcus- I would not presume to know whether Mugabe or Nkomo were racists at the time of the war of liberation. Judging by Mugabe's more recent shenanigans it would be safe to presume that the man is racist undoubtedly. (The word racist can be replaced with tribalist since in my opinion racism and tribalism are two sides of the same coin- but that I suppose is another matter for another day) Whether this rabid racism displayed by Mugabe has been there all along or is a result of some Damascene conversion on his part within the last tewnty three years is again a matter beyond me. <br>The intent behind the question that I posed (the unity of black people against the "whites") was not to propound nor peddle any racist myths and fabrications but rather to expose the pattern that people will unite to fight against a common enemy and upon achieving victory disintergrate into the sum of their parts. This is a motif repeated in much of Africa in the fight against colonialism including Zimbabwe - that is the Shona and Ndebele were largely united against the "whites" but upon victory tribalism reared its ugly head. Now given that Matebeleland is not an ethnically homogenous area - people are being called to unite agaist the perceived Shona enemy (the thread started by toots is particularly enlightening), it is my contention that divisions along tribal lines will undoubtedly occur if ever the goal of an independent Matebeleland was ever achieved. This will result in the balkanization or bantustanisation (take your pick) of Matebeleland into small and economically insignificant states.<p>In response to the question that you ask- the war of independence (1966-1980) should have been, in my opinion, a war against a system that abrogated the rights of the black man at will, a system where all the blackman felt and knew was the jackboot of fascist oppression on the small of his back. The result of this war should have been a society based on the respect of human rights and the rule of law. Since this has not happened in Zimbabwe, the out come of that war is highly unsatisfactory.<br>Marcus I hope that you will agree that if problem in Smith's UDI and before was the system and not the white people per se, then the problem in present day Zimbabwe is not the Shona (as has been the continual misrepresentation in this forum and others)but rather the system that has been put in place by Robert Mugabe. This system benefits no one but Mugabe and his cronies. The fight therefore should not be about establishing an independent state but rather about replacing Mugabe's evil system with one that cherishes and respects human rights and the rule of law.<br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 03:17 PM
Marcus- Having re-read your posting it would appear that we agree on the that the present Mugabe system is wrong as it has failed the people and that the system and not the Shona people are the problem. I disagree with your sentiments that many contributors here share the same sentiments - on the contrary what I see and read on this forum is that Matebeleland is underdeveloped because of the Shona, people are uneducated because of the Shona, people are unemployed because of the Shona, the Shona are arrogant, there is Shona man selling ice cream at a street corner in Bulawayo!!!! and therefore Matebeleland should breakaway and form an independent state. Where then do you stand on the issue of an independent Matebeleland?
Posted By: Saduva Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 03:27 PM
OK, Jazi, you have derided, dismissed as nonsensical and downright fanciful Matebele clamour for secession.<p>You also suggest that replacing "Mugabe's evil system with one that cherishes and respects human rights and the rule of law" is the answer. Let us try and de-construct this idealistic sentiment and have you explain in REALISTIC terms, what this "new" system would entail.<p>I shall wait for your alternative program before I fully respond to more of your utterances.<p>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 04:17 PM
Jazi many thanks for your answers which I found candid and direct.<p>We share many starting points, though our conclusions are different.<p>I can only speak for myself when I say that I will not regard anybody as my enemy simply because of his mother tongue or his ethnic origin.<p>At the same time I suppose I have to say that I can understand - without endorsing - the empirical thinking that guides some people at times.<p>"Zonelwa mvu'nye" - so the saying goes, and because Mkabi has self-consciously cloaked himself and his followers in the trappings of ethnic quasi-nationalism so unfortunately the ice cream seller you speak of who shares the same ethnic heritage becomes "evidence" of oppression.<p>I reiterate that in my view, which has been enunciated at times by thinkers like Ntombankala, we need to develop an ideology which depends not on hatred of others but on love for and confidence in the abilities of, our own people.<p>I will not try to prove for my affection or respect for our people in Matebeleland by saying that I hate people in any other part of the country.<p>At the same time I would urge people in other parts of the country to show their respect for the people of Mthwakazi by fighting to divest Mkabi of the tribal legitimacy with which he cloaks himself.<p>And first and foremost I will continue to contend that we in Matebeleland must take control of our own future to ensure our own future. <p>I am trying to be responsible in my contributions to the debate on this issue.<p>I am not asking people to throw down their lives in a struggle against a tyrant who kill because he is by instinct just a killer.<p>I am asking them to survive and to develop.<p>I am not trying to denigrate others when I acclaim the bravery, decency, integrity and nobility of the Abantu bakaMzilikazi kaMatshobana.<p>You don't have to show love of some by expressing hatred of others.<p>I am not trying to contribute to meaningless divisiveness about the differing ancestries which comprise modern Mthwakazi because I would rather cut off my own right arm than suggest any of the constituent parts of the whole body politic in Mthwakazi is less deserving respect or esteem than any other part.<p>Mnangagwa's grandfather allegedly served in an Impi under Nombengula.<p>Does that make Mnangagwa a great man in Matebeleland?<p>Joshua Nkomo was according to different authorities either a Kalanga or a Makololo gentleman.<p>Does that make him less great?<p>And so it goes for many others.<p>History has cursed us all and we need to ensure that history does not continue to repeat itself.<p>Yesterday white supremacy; today Shona supremacy; perhaps tomorrow Ndebele supremacy.<p>But in each of these supremacies are the seeds of its own downfall.<p>Whites could not live in heaven when blacks lived in hell.<p>Mkabi's hegemony cannot prosper when it costs such extensive impoverization and oppression and ethnic alienation.<p>Ndebele supremacy will not last if it comes at the expense of the mass suffering of others.<p>Ubukhosi ngamazolo.<p>So the more I have read and been educated by this website my own ideas have become clarified.<p>If you are someone who traces his ancestors to KwaZulu and you work to uplift the people of Matebeleland I acclaim you.<p>If you are someone who traces his ancestors to the Nambya people or Talehundra and you work to uplift the people of Matebeleland I acclaim you.<p>So Jaz we start from the same point one in that we agree, let's not hate people but let us hate A SYSTEM OF HATRED.<p>But we diverge to different ends.<p>I want to see subsidiarity and increasing autonomy for people who have suffered greatly and who deserve better than the lot history has allocated them.<p>You believe it is still possible to make the State redeem its legitimacy.<p>As long as I do not hate you and you do not hate me and we both seek to promote the welfare of the people we both care about, let us continue our dialogue.<p>Maybe I will change your mind.<p>Maybe you will change my mind.<p>(Inkomo ingazala umuntu koMhlahlandlela!)<p>:-)
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 05:26 PM
Marcus- Thank you for your articulate response. However it is interesting that you should seek to side-step the issue of Matebeleland's ethnic non-homogeneity and dismiss it as "meaningless divisiveness" It is a fact that Matebeleland is made up of Ndebele, Kalanga,Suthu, Venda,Tonga and others who I have not mentioned. These peoples all have their own aspirations, dreams and visions for the future of their race. It is a genuine question to ask -what happens when these aspirations diverge. What happens in an independent Matebeleland when the Suthu ask for independence, the Kalanga their own enclave, the Tonga their own homeland, the Venda their own bantustan and the others assert their inalienable right to self determination? Far from being divisive these are issues that need to be addressed with the same urgency and zeal as that of secession of Matebeleland.<br>It is ironic that the different ethnic groups in Matebeleland are asked to look beyond their ethnicity while the same generosity of spirit is not afforded to those from the east of the country.<br>You also talk of "we need to develop an ideology which depends not on hatred of others but on love for and confidence in the abilities of, our own people" Pray thee do tell, Marcus just who are "own people" Again the harsh irony is not lost upon me that people of Ndebele origin for instance are being called upon to regard a Tonga man as his "own people" while the Shona man is not his "own people" Marcus, my "own people" are my fellow Africans regardless of their ethnicity whose lives "are bound in shallows and in misery" and will continue to to suffer while those who ought to know better give chase to lizards when crocodiles are against them (to borrow the words of the people's poet Mzwakhe).<br>Saduva- I will respond to your question in due course.
Posted By: Mpho Ncube Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 06:56 PM
"What happens in an independent Matebeleland when the Suthu ask for independence, the Kalanga their own enclave, the Tonga their own homeland, the Venda their own bantustan and the others assert their inalienable right to self determination?"<p>What you ask here Jazi is the paradox of self-determination, i.e would the minorities in Mthwakazi(Sotho, Tonga etc) want to secede from the seceding Ndebele?<p>Also, you have to ask yourself this question; would for example, the Tonga people be better off being members of a big minority(the Ndebele), as is currently the case or as a small minority in an independent Mthwakazi? <br> You're right to highlight this paradox, as indeed Toots has done elsewhere on this site but in doing so, don't get carried away in this doomsday scenario you envisage.<p>If you're "one of us", let me say Ibambe, ungay'yeki. Sebenza!! If on the other hand you're not, let me say, ayipheli, ngek'iphele l'indaba. Zabalaza!!
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 07:56 PM
Mfowethu Jazi I have never side-stepped the issue of the composition of the people of Mthwakazi.<p>If you had read previous comments I have referred to many of the constituent peoples you have mentioned here: and here today I have referred as example to Talehundra (Kalanga) and Nambya, and Makololo people.<p>I have referred aain and again to the fact that Mzilikazi's people are a unique people because they constitute a nation drawn from different ethnicities.<p>The point I make here that you do not understand, or distort for your own reasons, is that membership of that nation constitutes an equality: ancestry is less important than who you are and how you serve this people.<p>Our own people in the context of this site are the people of the area we call Mthwakazi which constitutes part of the Midlands Province of Zimbabwe and North and South Mat'land Provinces.<p>Now I like Mzwakhe's poetry and I like the quote you cite.<p>I like to think that I am not so stupid or so heartless as not to be well aware of the need for Africa to find itself and for Africans to find their feet in a big bad world that skews so many agendas away from the people at the bottom of the pile who happen to be African because of that skewing.<p>But - maybe because I am just a white man - I tend to think that Africa has plenty of crocodiles of its own that some people like to pretend are only lizards because they like to believe ideological fairytales.<p>I am afraid the ideological fairytale I have most in mind as I write is the one about Pan Africanism.<p>Do me a favour please.<p>Lingixolele, ngiphinde ngizame ngeSiNdebele ukucela ukubuza, ake ngitshele mnumzana Jazi - ucabanga yini - mkabi uyingwenya noma uyimpankwa na?<p>:-)
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/23/03 08:08 PM
Jaz, mhlawumbe ngifanele ngibuze, uthini - mkabi uyingwenya noma uyimpankwa na?
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 12:59 PM
Marcus- just exactly who are Mzilikazi's people? Are the Kalangas, Sotho, Tonga, Venda, etc all Mzilikazi's people. Perhaps my understanding and knowledge of history is severely limited- I always thought that those peoples and tribes co-opted into Mzilikazi's nation became Ndebele as in they not only adopted Ndebele language as their first and only language but the customs and norms of the Ndebele society and in so doing discard their own languages and cultures. That being the case I fail to see how a Kalanga person (for instance) who speaks Kalanga as his first language (and Ndebele as his second) and celebrates Kalanga culture norms and values can be regarded as Mzilikazi's people. Could it be that your definition of Mzilikazi's people is a self-serving one? Could it be that the Mthwakazi nation you refer to has nothing to do with Mzilikazi and is no more than a modern concoction thrown together by nothing more than geography?<br>It is interesting that you should seek to dismiss my view that my people are my fellow Africans as an ideological fairy tale of pan Africanism. This is most astounding given that on the one hand you call upon the Ndebele to regard the Tonga as their own people (and vice versa) but on the other you dismiss (perhaps with petulance) the notion that the Shona man is as much a Ndebele's "own people" as the Tonga. I refuse to accept your strait jacketed definition of "own people" as being found in "Midlands Province of Zimbabwe and North and South Mat'land Provinces". The Pan-Africanism that you dismiss as an fairytale has failed precisely because of such narrow definitions of self .<br>As you your last question - "Jaz, mhlawumbe ngifanele ngibuze, uthini - mkabi uyingwenya noma uyimpankwa na" I did not know whether to laugh or cry when I read that . In the end I did neither as I contemplated what your intentions behind that question are. Do I think that Mugabe is a hero - HELL NO!!!. But I would not call him umpankwa as this would be a most unfair insult on impankwa! Marcus, this is man who has betrayed the soil and soul of Zimbabwe, a despicaple mand who has looted, pillaged and sodomised the dreams and aspirations of the people of Zimbabwe- black,white, Shona, Ndebele. No one of sound mind would regard him otherwise.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 03:09 PM
Well to start at the end of your response I am happy that we find ourselves in agreement in one fundamental.<p>I have encounters with people on the internet and in real life, even at this stage of terminal national disintegration, who persist in seeing Mkabi as a custodian of values and champion of "sovereignty".<p>Needless to say I am pleased, again, to note that I am not debating with a member of that lunatic fringe.<p>Then to continue from the beginning - my understanding of Mzilikazi's nation-building is I suggest slightly less crude than yours.<p>The nation he developed was very much the product of various processes - not just of coercion (though I accept that was a factor) but also of cooption and assimilation.<p>To take one profound example, the respect that was paid by Mzilikazi and his successor to the oracles of the Mangwe/Dula/Njelel/Matonjeni shrines and the consequent development of a theological understanding which incorporated Mlimo-Mwari in national religious ritual.<p>Or to take another example, the extent to which the language which Mzilikazi brought from KwaZulu has adapted over years and become a clearly distinct language from SiZulu as a result of its borrowings from other languages from assimilated groups.<p>Jaz all and sundry on this site and elsewhere know very well I am not a proficient linguist but I have read failry widely and can quote relevant authorities, such as Saul Gwakuba Ndlovu, in support of the above contentions.<p>Or to take another example, the extent to which the existing chiefdoms in Mthwakazie were incorporated into Mzilikazi's power structure when he arrived in the country by a system of marriage alliances between existing power structures and the new order.<p>The reason I continually refer to Mzilikaz's acumen and statecraft is because as well as being a military man he had these capacities in abundance.<p>I have never accepted the summation of Mzilikazi as an all-destructive figure, or "Path of Blood" (a mistranslation which some of us will recall created quite an interesting and amusing thread on the extinct Daily News BB some years ago. Sometimes I seem to sniff the scent of the misconceived author of that construct, "Gwembeni" in the air... :-) !).<p>Mzilikazi kaMashobana was a creator.<p>The fact is that his legacy was to define a united nation with which modern Zimbabwe is still trying to come to terms to this day.<p>Along the way both the Rhodesian State and Mkabi's State have tried containment and coercion to regulate the aspirations of Mzilikazi's orphans.<p>This was unjust, short-sighted and counterproductive and doomed to failure.<p>In my view, being inspired by the flowering of once dormant nationalisms in many other parts of the world, the way forward is to accomodate the quasi-nationalist phenomenon which the AmaNdebele represent.<p>There is nothing sinister about this.<p>And I will say that as far as I am concerned the Tonga are a welcome and integral part of the future of Mthwakazi. <p>I fail to see why they should be singled out for special horrified (or perhaps petulant?) mention.<p>They have born the brunt of recent suffering under Mkabi's distortion of food aid.<p>Njeng' abantu abanengi bakhongozela emakiweni ukupefemula; njeng' abantu abanengi babhema nsango.<p>I see no basis to vilify or marginalize them, least of all by a man of your stamp who claims to love everyone.<p>Finally mfowethu, to end in the middle of your response, we see what "Pan Africanism" means, everytime Stan Mudenge's skweeza the SA foreign minister utters stupid and complacent inanities while our country burns; every time the likes of Mbekimkabi and Obasanjo close their eyes to our suffering; every time Gaddaffi and his erstwhile slavetraders descend once more on us to rape the country.<p>Marcus was not the first to mock the concept of Pan Africanism: by their behaviour these great Africans were.<p>Ngiqede, ngilinde, ngifunde. :-)
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 04:19 PM
Marcus- that Daily news BB was one of the most interesting interludes in my travels in cyberspace. Yes I was on that board - for the life of me I cannot recall the nom de guerre that I used. But that is a digression.....<br>I am sorry that it appears that I have singled out the Tonga - rest assured that there was devious intent on my part.<br>Your response about the assimilation and nation building characteristics of Mzilikazi were most informative. However you do not dein to discuss what language, culture, customs, values and norms were used by those assimilated into Ndebele society. It appears logical to me to assume that those that were not assimilated and therefore were not part of Mzilikazi's nation remained speaking their own languages and practising their own cultural values. Thus strictly speaking, the descendants of those not assimilated would be the Sothos, Vendas, Kalangas etc of today. <br>With respect to Pan-africanism- can the inadequacies of African leaders (that you describe) in particular that be laid upon the door of Pan - Africanism. I think not. I think what you describe is not the failure of Pan-africanism but rather how Africa and her Africans have been failed by the self-serving charlatans,prelates,demagogues despots, petty crooks and criminals who masquarade as her leaders. I have always maintained that Africa has been failed by her leaders as epitomised by the tragedy that has unfolded before our very eyes in Zimbabwe.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 05:19 PM
what an interesting debate...! <p>Marcus I do remember Mr Gwembeni and his twisted " Mzila we gazi" defination of Mzilikazi's name!<p>What a laugh!<p>But then back to the main issue! I would love to ask this question to some who are against us fighting against the oppressive System in Zimbabwe and who are horrified by our determination to have an independent state of Mthwakazi!<p>The question is this: What is a SYSTEM? <p>And further questions: Does the HEGEMONIC SYSTEM that Mugabe has created in Zimbabwe only limited to Zanu PF and their cronies!<p>Have the Shona, as a homogeneous group never supported the SYSTEM that Mugabe and Zanu PF set up in 1980, which eventually culminated in the massacres of the Ndebele people in 1983, by psychopaths called Guhurahundi!<p>Where were these psychopaths coming from? Were they coming from Zanu PF and its cronies or they came from the Shona constituency?<p>Were they not part of the Hegemomist SYSTEM which Mugabe has and continue to preside over?<p>Did this Shona System not look upto Mugabe as their Messiah?<p>If ever they were not part of that System, why did they keep quiet when our kith and kin were butchered by their children under the leadership of Mkabi!<p>Silalele phela lapha ezinye inkulumo ezingelamkanyo but very high sounding in presentation!<p>We therefore urge those who still only base this factual argument, as rather an academic essay writing, to pose and think deeply about presenting facts as they are rather than twist these facts to suit their misguided and ill conceived propaganda!<p>Our determination and spirit to see this through will never be undermined by text book theories that do not fit into our harsh realities of experience in Zimbabwe!<p>Sesifuna iReal Politic not Textbook Politics!<p>We Say:<p>Hlasela!
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 05:40 PM
And Mthwakazi's Final Push to an Independent State, shall be Real Push and the Real Thing!<p>Siyeza iSavunguzane madoda kakudlalwa!<p>Sokhala emthonjaneni,<br>Izizwe zonke zokuzwa amalilo ethu,<br>Zizothiya izindlebe zazo,<br>Zilalele isavunguzane soQobo,<br>Isavunguzan' iMthwakazi, sovunguza, sivunguze, sivunguze lafuthifuthi,<br>Imiduli yeHejemoni iyodilika, idilike, idilike njalo futhi, idilike lafuthufuthi!<p>Izinkomo ezimabalabala zophakamis' amatshoba,<br>Zibhonse,zibuye zibhonse, zibhonse lafuthi futhi!<br>Zizothol' injabulo kanye lenkululeko<br>Ngemva kwempi yokuhlasela okukhulu!<p><p>'Our Road Map' to a free Independant State of the Mthwakazi Republic is being drawn up and the means of achieving this being thoroughly looked at!<p>Amagwala emuva bakithi!<p><br>Hlasela!
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 05:51 PM
Thina abanye sikhona to fight for what we believe in. <p>Uyez' umoya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 05:53 PM
The Chairman and Jaz it is good to know that as contributors to the DN forum we are reunited here to continue our discussions.<p>I think on that forum we really all helped to begin a debate that was at times caustic but always rewarding and thought-provoking.<p>I truly believbe that we contributed to the national debate conducted in the press and in many other forums which began over the Gukurahundi atrocities.<p>And The Chairman I remember with amusement the suggestion that was made regarding "sikhukhu ye gazi"!<p>:-)<p>In any event, Jaz, I accept that those who were recruited into the nation by Mzilikazi were expected to conform to the customs and habits of the nation: at the same time they changed, influenced, enriched the nation and for this reason I restate my view that the Ndebeles are not simply a "Zulu" offshoot but something different and unique with a texture that reflects many people and cultures.<p>I would also ask you to consider Jaz that the way in which Mkabi's people have affected the Ndebeles has served to reinforce a sense of separateness from Shona people.<p>I remember reading with sadness accounts of youngsters whose families were ravaged by the killers, rapists and amateur surgeons of the 5th Brigade and some said, until the 5th Brigade came to them, they did not know they were Ndebeles.<p>So as The Chairman reminds us, we are not just having an interesting academic discussion (much as I enjoy this dialogue with you) but also we have to face up to reality.<p>The reality that includes:<p>discrimination against Ndebele speakers in the jobs market;<p>discrimination against ventures by Ndebele speaking entrepreneurs;<p>corruption and nepotism in the award of tenders, allocation of licenses etc;<p>greater repression (including more stringent implementation of POSA) in Mat'land as opposed to other parts of the country;<p>and frequent threats from many people, not just Z PF people, that if Ndebeles are not "careful" and if they do not know their place as a minority in Zimbabwe the 5th Brigade could yet come again.<p>My response to all of these things is simple: give Ndebeles, or should I say rather Mthwakazians, security and autonomy in the part of the country we know as Matebeleland and Midlands Provinces in order to administer their own affairs.<p>Above all let us all make it crystal clear - whether we are black, white, green, yellow - that Almighty God Himself will come down from Heaven before ever Gukurahundi will be allowed to occur again.<p>As the Jews say about the Holocaust, "never again".<p>Mfowethu I have made it clear my loyalty is to the MDC.<p>In part this is because I see representatives of all ethnic groups working well together in that party; and in part because I can never forget that people - black, white, Ndebele, Shona have given their lives for their membership of that party.<p>At the same time I have repeatedly said that I encourage and support any other vehicle being formed and used by others to promote the welfare of our region.<p>It is not good or healthy to see people being marginalized and oppressed and I can not look forward to a future in my own hometown if my compatriots cannot see their own future.<p>I was reflecting on a Daily News report today regarding a young tourist from South Africa who was shot in cold blood in Bulawayo on Sunday.<p>We all know that crime is on the rise in Bulawayo and there is a racial element involved.<p>Let us address root causes of phenomena like this: poverty, a system of hatred wildly encouraged by Mkabi, a sense of division between black and white based on historical injustice and continuing disparities etc etc.<p>So we can blame murderers for bearing the mark of Cain, and punish them accordingly, but we need to encourage mass development and social cohesion in our home region.<p>The reason I try to engage on forums like this is because I think we simply need each other if we are to rebuild what has been destroyed.<p>I am not trying to provoke hatred or disunity but their opposites.<p>Perhaps that will redeem me as a Pan Africanist?<p>:-)<p>History will tell us what thrives and what fails, who was acting in good faith and who was acting in self-aggrandizement.<p>Thanks again magents for a truly worthwhile conversation.<p>
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 06:48 PM
As far as I see it, the lines are already drawn in this "debate". Nothing is new in all that's been said, and I'm sure nothing will ever convince, if that is the objective, other people to open their eyes to the plight of OUR people. And, let me quickly elaborate and be VERY specific by what I mean by OUR people. I'm talking about abantu bakoMthwakazi, hashi abezimbabwe. AbakoMthwakazi bayazazi, abading'kutshelwa! I've said it before, and let me reiterate it one more time, especially for amavimbandlebe. The z-word is an ideology, a hegemonist ideology of those cowards that are otherwise known as abetshabi, together with all their lapdogs and shameless/gutless/spineless lackeys. <p>It is imperative for our people to be vigilant, especially at this very critical point in the evolution of our nationhood. Abetshabi will use ALL possible/impossible means to frustrate our aspirations. They will use every possible/impossible weapon out there to obfuscate the obvious. They'll do everything to conceal the truth , to misinform the vulnerable, and, indeed, KILL our dream. Khepha ke, ababuzanga elangeni! Okulempondo akufihlwa emgodleni! Uzakhumbula ukuthi, ngemvelo, uMthwakazi zinkomo ezavul'nqaba ngezimpondo, zafohla kunxishiwe. Awungeke wenqabele izifiso zeSizwe naphakade. Ngenye imini enhle, uzezwa angathi uyasha. Siyeza isiqhotho. Ayeza amalangabi.<p>A final word to abantu bakithi: Please be VIGILANT. Abetshabi will resort to every trick in the book to keep you oppressed and marginalised for ever. They'll even try the well-known "divide and rule". They'll try to plant seeds of disunity among you. They'll try to make you distrust one another. But, remember, only YOU can let them do this! My advice is, never let them pull you asunder. Your colours are what make you strong. Amabala enu yinkatha yeSizwe. <p>Words....<br>Words that conceal<br>Words that demean<br>Insulting words<br>Caustic words<br>Oppressive words<br>Words that frustrate<br>Cold words<br>Acidic words<p>Ah, the power of words<br>Words will go where a bullet will not<br>Words that destroy<br>Words that divide<br>Flowery words<br>Deceptive words<br>Misleading words<p>Ah, the wonder of words<br>The wonder of language<br>Be mindful of language<br>Be CAREFUL of language<br>Flowery language<p>I think it is Mzwakhe kaMbuli who has a track appropriately entitled "ukufa kwengqondo". You should try to listen to it, if you can.<p>Ngiyema lapha. <p><p><p><p><br>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/03 07:13 PM
Pinksticks I have to agree with you.<p>There is one ngqondo with an Ndebele name who regularly addresses flowery words to "President Mugabe" in one of the papers, seeking his cooperation in a peaceful transition to democratic rule.<p>I no longer believe only Shonas are allowed to be shifty.<p><br>;-)<p><p>
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 12:09 AM
The nation of Mthwakazi has ALREADY started singing the freedom/liberation song. It is a revolutionary song. It is a moving/touching song. It is spiritual and it's awe-inpiring. It is the same song that our ancestors sang, as they faced tribulations. The same song that saw them triumph against all odds, when everyone thought they were doomed. <p>It is a sacred song, akin to the Inxwala song. It is a song that reverberates through the landscape/tapestry of the history<br>iSizwe sakithi. It's the song that the ancient warriors chanted when leaving homes/families for war. It's the same song they chanted when returning home, after a compaign. <p>Let it be known, in unequivocal terms, to all those trying to stand in the way of the tide that this song will ONLY get louder with time. The voices of the people will get more agitated. The day of reckoning is not far away. Sekuseduze lapho siya khona. Qiniselani we maqhawe. <p>Ibambeni! <p><p> <br>
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 07:42 AM
We will never be weakened! We will never bow to anyone! We will never listen to the appeasers ! <p>We mean what we say! We have a real strength of character as our forefathers did!<p>Mugabe tried to wipe us out(Gukurahundi:I am told it means removing izibi or chuff).<p>We were regarded as izibi to be removed completely and put in the dustbins of a country so called Zimbabwe!<p>But we have survived and this is another day for us to fight our way to Independence!<p>We will never make any more mistakes! Some have said we are a scheming people! We lost this skill through Nkomo's mistakes and we have learned from his mistakes a great deal!<p>Now we begin on this tough Road to scheme our way through to Revive Mthwakazi and safeguard her rights within the Global Village of the World Peoples!<p>The Revival of Mthwakazi is on its way like iSavunguzane, like a tidal wave and there is victory at the end of this episode!<p><br>Victory, Victory is insight!<p><br>When we say HLASELA, we mean what we say!<p>Hlasela!
Posted By: ntombankala Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 09:13 AM
Marcus my brother, I did not know that I belonged to the league of "great thinkers". I want to thank you for bestowing that honour on me "and others" you refer to in your posting. It is a great honour from a person of your type who eats, lives and dreams Mthwakazi. Amadlozi ka Mthwakazi - meaning oMzilikazi and others will give you the necessary honour - I am not fit to give that to you. I am convinced that they will do that for the rest of us - their children. Very soon bazakunika igama. You have to be patient because I can not say when as such processes are beyond our power. <p>Chairman - siyakubonga ngokuqala loludaba. Kusobala ukuthi uthunywe ngabadala. Njengoba usitsho, "our final push will be a real thing - it will not be a game of cowards as was displayed 2 weeks ago. Talking about cowards, Colin Powell is quoted by the New York Times of Tuesday, 24 as saying, "I met brave people..." Please note, "brave" this was in reference to Archi - bishop Pius Ncube who paid him a visit. khuzani uvalo bo!!<p>In this game as you have shown Nobhutshuzwayo lawe mfoka Nduku, lani lonke Chairman, amagwala have no role to play. And as Marcus quotes, the Jews said, "never again" of the holocaust - and we say "never again" of the rule and systems of abetshabi. let them do it in their backyard. Let them chase away white people, "because they are not Zimbabweans" and loot their belongings in their land. We will not do that since whites too and Indians are Ndebele. Yes lingizwe kahle - ngamaNDEBELE. Let them do it with the support of the likes of Libya, Sudan, Malaysia - let them do it.<p>Indeed Mr Chairman - what is a system? We know that a system is made of sub - systems. Ths shona system is made up of such sub - systems. And rightfully, the sub - systems have to use some synergy, they have to work together, have to be rewarded to maintain the whole system intact. <p>We have come from the great tribulation - we have gone through fire and we say "never again". And yes, the song of freedom can only get louder and louder - it is sacred and those who stand in the path of abantwana benkosi are only asking for a curse to themselves. Buzani oFusi - bazalitshela.<p>lingalibali ukuthi this work has its own pace setter. Yes we have to talk. Kufanele sibonisane. for a while people thought that "Joshua had gone with all the leadership qualities". Cha akunjalo. Wenza watshiya lapho ayefanele atshiye khona. Liqhawe lingakhohlwa - lingaqali ukumthethisa. Lihlazo bo. Mkhulekeni. Phakathi kwenu, ikhethiwe ingwe emabalabala. Yebo ikhethwa ematholeni ingwe - phela amathole ayayihlonipha ingwe. Lizayazi, lizayithanda. Usukhona umoya njalo uyeza, 'mkhulu kakho kwabaphilayo olamandla okuwuqeda.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 09:55 AM
Gentlemen I have never done anything other than support the search for justice and peace and a fair dispensation for the people and home area in which I was born and grew up following the methods which will lead us to the best result and not cheat us of that result.<p>Anyone who suggests otherwise does so at his own estimation of his ability to foresee the future.<p>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 10:56 PM
My brother Ntombankala I do reiterate that in every word I have read that emanates from your pen there is consistency, sincerity and integrity. I believe you can stand with pride by every word you have written that I have read.<p>I mean on this site of course.<p>If I were critical I am sure you would believe I meant my criticism.<p>As I offer this respect I know you know it is sincerely meant too.<p>:-)
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 01:11 PM
Marcus- yesterday (or was it the day before?) you spoke of a lunatic fringe and the pleasure that you derive from not debating with one of their number. It would appear to me, going by the delusions and illusions, rantings and ravings and Zanu-pf like-petty sloganeering of some of the posts in this thread and in this forum in general, that the lunatics have taken over the asylum. But will Marcus speak out against this "lunatic fringe"? Suffice to say that one better not hold their breath- perhaps Marcus does not consider them lunatics since he is in agreement with them! Which begs the question "what is a lunatic?" Perhaps we should leave at "One man's lunatic is another's voice of reason"<br>Yet but then again I digress, turing to the matter at hand. Marcus you state "discrimination against Ndebele speakers in the jobs market; discrimination against ventures by Ndebele speaking entrepreneurs, corruption and nepotism in the award of tenders, allocation of licenses"<br>I hope you will agree with me that what you describe with these statements is a description of Shona oppression of Mthwakazi. Thus I feel I must ask you, would you say that the oppression of the Ndebele by the Shona is in anyway of the same order of magnitude as that of Blacks by whites in colonial Rhodesia?. Conditions prevailing then include <br>a) a two tier educational system designed to hinder the education of African while promoting white education and opportunity<br>b) a two tier health system - infant mortality rates that were appreciably lower for the whites than the blacks, higher life expectancy for the whites<br>c) higher employment rates for the whites<br>Do any of these conditions apply in modern day Zimbabwe? Given that white people benefited and in the main did nothing to stop this abuse of Africans would it be fair to blame them as much as the system for these abuses (in much the same way as you blame the Shona for Mugabe's outrages)? I must ask you what job market you are talking about when the economy has all but collapsed? Invariably you may re-treat to our intrepid Shona speaking ice cream vendor at a corner in Bulawayo as evidence of this discrimination. Consider this hypothetical situation- there are 50 Shona people and 50 Ndebele people in Bulawayo. One of the Shona is our ice cream vendor leaving 49 unemployed Shona and 50 unemployed Ndebele people. The question is what concerns you most- the fact that the one ice cream vendor is Shona and not Ndebele or that there are 99 unemployed people?<br>With respect to your second statement - what evidence do you have to back this assertion?<br>Your third statement does no more that extend the fallacy and fiction that has been trailed on this forum as though it were incontrovertible truth- namely that corruption, nepotism are an affliction that affects the Shona. This is patently not true corruption is at pandemic levels in Africa (unless you are suggesting that the Shona have something to do with this too!!) Indeed I'd bet the shirt on my back that were Matebeleland to become independent corruption and nepotism would find a home there too!!
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 02:09 PM
Jaz I have no hesitation in accepting the truth that many aspects of the prejudice of Ndebele speakers in favour of others simply replicates the position of white dominance in former times.<p>This is why I make the argument that white supremacism was wrong and unsustainable and so is the present ethnarchy - and so would be any discriminatory system in the future.<p>Unfortunately whether I like it or not the fact is on the ground that Ndebeles are being prejudiced as I have described.<p>This is the truth.<p>There are elemnts in this of what may be described as "internal colonialism" as when people arrive in remote parts of Matebeleland in order to work in civil service positions without the slightest relation to the communities in which they find themselves.<p>This saga of marginalization is the truth.<p>It may be inconvenient to some but it is the truth.<p>As I have previously indicated to you for example the fact that so many (one million? two million?) people from Mthwakazi are now lodging in South Africa tells its own story.<p>Jaz I have no doubt - as in any society - our home region has and will have problems with nepotism and corruption of various kinds.<p>But at the moment it seems that we are not in a position to regulate and deal with these realities as the prime culprits at present come from Mkabi's power base.<p>The disgraceful actions of Chiyangwa in destroying viable Bulawayo businesses is an example. <p>This is an excellent forum with many wise and thoughtful contributors and I learn a great deal here.<p>I would say, for example, that as a veteran of the Daily News forum the likes of The Chairman has been absolutely consistent in enunciating his view over some years and he can by no means be taken lightly.<p>I respect his right.<p>So in my view this is not a lunatic overrun by its inhabitants though there may be a pipsqueak here or there who is too wet behind the ears to take part in a structured conversation as he wishes to make him self the centre of attention for egomaniacal reasons coonected to jealousy and feelings of inadequacy.<p>Maybe as I am just a white ngqondo some one can explain to me how some ngqondo can start shouting about Inxwala where Inxwala is a royal ceremony that is for a King to convoke.<p>Do we have a King - or rather some ngqondo who dreams he is a King - in our midst?<p>At the end of the day Marcus is connected to and accountable to real people in the struggle against the oppression and marginalization of Mthwakazi and what is said or not said by some virtual nonentity on the internet can never affect that.<p>:-)<p>And in any event I am just a guest and it is not for me to explain to my hosts where I think there seems to be evidence of madness.<p>Madness displays itself and often it is its own reward.
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 04:47 PM
"....it is a sacred song, AKIN to the Inxwala song....".<p>Lokhu kuthiwa ISIFANEKISO (imagery). I think it's best for people to ask for elaboration whenever there's some ambiguity in what people write on this board. I strongly believe it is unfair and uncalled for to make judgements, especially on "virtual nonentities", based solely on the written word. Why is it so imperative to JUDGE people?<p>For the record, yes, I doubt there's an aspiring King amongst the contributors on this forum. I believe most of us are SIMPLE folks who are interested in the eventual upliftment/empowerment of our people, our region. Some of us have seen so much suffering. We can no longer remain silent while our people burn in the hell that mgabe and his people have created. Also, just because there's no king doesn't mean people can not talk ABOUT Inxwala. Bathi kuyasa noma kungela qhude!<p>I've been termed before a "leader of an embryonic organisation". I repeat, as I've done before, I am not a leader of any organisation on the planet, and I certainly don't aspire to be. However, all I wish for is for my people/region to be organised enough to stand up to the system that you all know. If this is so wrong, please let me know, and provide me reasons why it is wrong.<p>I've nothing but the utmost respect for ALL the contributors on this forum. The fact that you all find time, out of your busy schedules, to write on the board is ample evidence you passionately care about our region/people. And, for the record, I RESPECT Jazi's viewpoints. It is his RIGHT to express his views, no one can/should take that away from him. In fact, it would be immoral to silent him. Everyone's voice MUST be heard. However, I believe at the end of the day the voice of reason shall prevail, whatever that voice might be. <p>I think it was Aristotle who once said<br>"...virtue lays in the mean....".<p><p><br> <p><p><p><p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 05:32 PM
Marcus- nuff said about lunatics and asylums,inxwala and kings, lest we be side tracked from our discourse. <br>Can you respond to the bit about the hypothetical scenario described in mm previous post- the one about the ice cream vendor.<br>In so much as there are large numbers of people from Matebeleland in South Africa how many Shona people are out of the country as a result of Mugabe's craziness<br>In much of our discussion we have agreed that the present system (Mugabe hegemony) is untenable and has got to be changed, we have disagreed on what the solutions as you see them to Matebeleland's ills would be. However I have not put acorss to you what I see as the solution to the ills facing "our people" We have agreed to disagree as to what constitutes "our people". Since my definition of "our people" is relatively broader than yours as it encompasses more people than yours does, the solutions that I shall put forth to you would serve your "own people" equally well.<br>First and foremost as the thread topic says- get rid of Mugabe. The vehicle for achieving this is the MDC. I am aware that the MDC is not without short comings, but at the present moment it offers the best opportunity to get rid of the demagogue. Mthwakazi must engage constructively with the said vehicle and participate totally and completely turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to paranoid calls that state unreasonably that you cannot trust the Shona. In so doing (engaging constructively with the vehicle for change) Mthwakazi, no one would be in a position ot accuse Mthwakazi of disengaging herself from the rest of the country and people. Indeed in this very forum there are people who are steadfast in their refusal to define themselves as Zimbabwean.<br>Secondly, once the first objective has been attained, Mthwakazi should again participate in re-buidling Zimbabwe with respect to a new constitution in which would be enshrined the declaration of equality of all members of the country regardless of one's ethnic origin.Also in this constitution would be clause that states that all are equal before the law of the land. There would also be the usual limitiations on the number of terms that a president could serve. Where there are imbalances as a result of Mugabe's misrule, these could be re-dressed by equal opportunity type measures that are the rave in the US and England. Yes, Marcus, I accept that the Mugabe hegemony has spawned imbalances skewed against ethnic minorities not least the people of Mthwakazi. I hasten to add, however, that in this forum and others I feel that these imbalances are greatly and grossly exaggerated, for reasons not as yet clear to me.(which is why I have taken you to task about how many Shona people are out of the country above)<br>Thirdly, in this new and refreshing dispensation those that committed the heinous massacres in Matebeleland should be hauled before the courts and brought to book for their crimes against humanity. To this end Mthwakazi need not wait for the demise of Mugabe to conscientise those people in Zimbabwe who claim that they did not know about Gukurahundi. This can be done by distributing the Catholic Commision for Justice report on Matebeleland entittled Breaking the Silence- A report on the disturbances in Matebeleland. This report can be found in its entirety on the South African Mail and Guardian website and has been there since 1997. Which brings me to ask - how many of those jumping up and down about independence for Matebeleland own let alone read this report? Any sober minded and sane person reading this report particularly Shona and to a lesser extent Ndebele would agree that that sort of madness must never be allowed to happen again. In the instance where it is not possible to distribute whole copies of the report - excerpts may be published in the independent press as adverts.
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/25/03 05:48 PM
Ye wonke umuntu has a right to express their opinions in this forum.<p>What however surprises me is that uJazi like before is here to shoot down any contributions in this forum that are pertinent to our own destiny.He again is of the opinion that what ever we discuss should be done in the context of what shona people shall say,think or do.<p>Liyakunanzelela yini khonokho?He will avoid being direct about what is being discussed and rather opt to bring foward what is un-necessary.Yiyo phela i-textbook politic or rather ukuba out of touch le-reality.Earlier in the discussion uSaduva asked this man a question but all the way has decided to duck that and plough into what he knows best- a lot of high sounding nothing-verbal musta.....He is back to demanding evidence like he has always done.He is busy with this ice-cream man example as if that will bring our people relief from the difficulties of the Mugabe regime.<p>The truth is that thina we will not listen to individuals whose agenda is at variance with our people hopes,who want to distract our attention from what we value by saying nothing.That is how i see Jazi's contributions.<p>I hope he is telling his folks that our resolve to free our people from izidlova,inzondo,ubuyanga obu-deliberately staged,ukweyiswa lokunye okunjalo is growing with each day. <p>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/26/03 09:58 AM
It is appreciated that one is invited to contribute to this forum. I hope I will never abuse my invitation to do so!<p><p>Jaz masiqhubeke - in respect of your hypothetical case of the ice cream seller I would have to make certain adjustments to your hypothetical model in order to ensure that it corresponds to a meaningful level to reality.<p>Firstly, the fact is that Bulawayo is experiencing prejudice against the fifty Ndebele candidates for the post so that it seems as if there are only fifty candidates who have a meaningful chance of obtaining the job.<p>(I am accepting at face value your suggestion that there are fifty Ndebeles and fifty Shonas in the employment pool though I am not at all sure that proportion is correct.)<p>Secondly, you make a good point about the fact that so many people are disadvantaged because our economy is being destroyed by a government that has never ever cared about the progress of Bulawayo.<p>So you are right - there is a general lack of employment.<p>But you should note that where times are tough the evidence of discrimination against some in the competition for scarce resources becomes all the more obvious and is all the more fiercely resented.<p>You tell me, truthfully, that the entire country is now being ruined: I tell you that Bulawayo has been hindered for years and years.<p>For example:<p>the Trans-Limpopo Spatial Intitiative was held back for a political reason.<p>the MZWP was placed in the hands of Mkabi's lapdogs. Now we are told work is to begin.<p>Sizayicela isivuthiwe.<p>So when we talk of the 99 unemployed I say we have a regional disparity to blame, in part, for that.<p>Harare was always called "bamba zonke" in colonial times but the name has nebver been more appropriate than is now the case.<p>Jaz, I note your comments about the MDC and you know you and I share the same feelings in many respects. I am cautiously optimistic that an MDC government would be fair and kind to Mat'land.<p>BUT BUT BUT<p>this will only happen if Mthwakazi has an organized, motivated, effective lobbying mechanism whereby we lobby for our region, create awareness of our problems and grievances and press for remedies.<p>Therefore I reiterate that people should be creating their own groups to promote our agenda - or in the alternative if they wish to, joining the MDC and telling it to be the vehile for their aspirations that they deserve.<p>And I believe it behoves people like me - and dare I say, you - not to close our eyes to the problems of Mat'land and to try in our own ways to bring its issues and concerns to the attention of any and all players.<p>It would be so easy for me to simply say "Get rid of Mkabi and your problems will be over!" but in truth reality is far more complicated.<p>Mkabi must be got rid of AND the State which has been used by him and the colonial order to repress and skew development needs to be overhauled and transformed.<p>Amen<p>:-)
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/26/03 01:44 PM
My conclusion a long time ago was that uJazi lishona. on all forums that i have seen his contributions his is always anti-ndebele. yizo i type zabo yizo yizo. abakhulela emandebeleni, abakhuluma isindebele, kodwa abalenjongo etshiyene leyamandebele. Even oDabengwa lado Enos Nkala abakapula lamashona bazakutshela ukuthi never trust a shona
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/26/03 05:23 PM
Nobhutshuzwayo- The only other forum where you have seen my views is in the zvakapressa website (ndebele link). Clearly this in no way constitutes "other forums". You are wrong about this (other forums) as you are wrong about my ethnic identity. If deluding yourself into thinking that I am Shona makes the world a safer place- safe enough for you to turn out the light when you retire to bed at night then you are welcome to your delusions. NgiliNdebele ungaze uthini so that at the end of the day what ever conclusions you reach about my ethnicity will not change ubuNdebele bami!!<br>Marcus- yes the proportions in the hypothetical case do not reflect the relative real proportions of the Shona and Ndebele. The much touted ratio is 4:1 (Shona to Ndebele).<br>I have to diagree with your wiew that when times are tought then that is when you see evidence of marginalisation/oppression. On the contrary - you have agreed that the general level of unemployment is high. You have also identified oppression of the Ndebele by the Shona as another factor causing high unemployment. Therefore having identified TWO factors, the high unemployment in Matebeleland cannot be attributed to any one of these factors at the expense of the other. In this situation (both hypothetical and real life), if we wanted to study the effect of Shona oppression on Ndebele unemployment rates we would thus have to remove the factor of general high unemployment country-wide and only then would we be able to say unemployment in Matebeleland is due to marginalisation. The oft peddled consipiracy theory of high unemployment in Matebeleland being due to Shona hegemony is thus discredited.(Marcus- the above expalntion may be somewhat long-winded and not at all clear- I am simply trying to borrow from the scientific concept of Blackman's law of limiting factors!!!) <p>Marcus- what is the "obsession" with autonomy/ sovereignity? Sovereignity/autonomy does not, in my view, put food on the table nor amout to three square meals a day. Who has ever supped and dined on sovereignity. No when your stomach is rumbling for the lack of food, you feet bare-foot for the lack of money because there is no work, self rule (uzibuse) and all the high faluting attendant ideals counts for diddly squat. This is one of the reasons why I have problems with the concept of self rule in Matebeleland because more often than not this concept is presented as though sovereignity and autonomy would lead to not only one ice cream vendor but four or forty and all of the Ndebele!!!
Posted By: Saduva Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/26/03 06:07 PM
Jazi, what is your alternative gameplan?
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/26/03 06:28 PM
Jaz having followed your argument it would be quickest for me simply to offer an alternative summation.<p>Firstly, when we talk about the proportion of Ndebele to Shona I know the national figure is 1:4 or thereabouts but in Bulawayo surely there is a very substantial Ndebele majority rather than the 1:1 ratio you relied on in the icecream seller example?<p>Perhaps I can appeal to you Jaz and others to give your best estimate on the proportions of the two language groups in the city?<p>Secondly, to cut through the issue of national decline versus the precise situation in Bulawayo it is clear to me and many others that Byo has suffered years of neglect that has comparatively disadvantaged it in relation to Harare.<p>What we have seen is an "economic cake" that has been getting smaller and smaller.<p>And as the cake has dwindled the share which has been allocated to Ndebeles has dwindled too.<p>Mfowethu I am simply telling you the position.<p>Many many people in other parts of the country find this description of the reality an uncomfortable one but as you are from Bulawayo and as you are Ndebele (and I believe this because you say so) you should know the prevailing situation as well as or better than I do.<p>I do not understand why you are so resistant to grasping this truth.<p>I really am puzzled.<p>???
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/27/03 08:14 AM
Saduva- may i refer you to my post dated 25/06/2003 (19:32) on this thread where I do believe I outline my "gameplan"<p>Marcus- I do believe that I have grasped the truth as you excellently put it- I agree that the national cake is dwindling and that the relative bread crumbs that reach the Ndebele are getting fewer and fewer.But, but but- that goes for everybody else outside of Matebeleland. What I have argued perhaps unsuccessfully is the folly (in my view) of stating Matebeleland's case as though the problems facing the region are unique only to Matebeleland - when people rightly state that there is high unemployment in Matebeleland the implicit implication is that there is low unemployment else- where, when people state that large numbers of people from Matebeleland have fled to South Africa again the implicit implication is that people elsewhere have not fled from Mugabe's misrule, when people state that standards of living are low in Matebeland the corrollary is that the Mashonaland is land of flowing milk and honey and its streets are paved in gold and coated with diamonds. What I have tried to argue is that many of the problems that face Matebeleland are national problems they should be addressed as such - with a concerted national approach. And only when these national problems have been addressed then we may begin to look and problems peculiar to the region (such as the water situation). We must also appreciate that economies the world over, display regional variations within countries. I agree that these variations should NOT arise from ethnic discrimination as you argue is the case in Matebeleland. To conclude I agree that the Mugabe government has neglected the people of Matebeleland and would add that it has also neglected the rest of the country as well. I also believe that Matebeleland's case has/is grossly exaggerated by some proponents pushing the concept of an independent Matebeleland.Independence does not tantamount to food on the table. Indeed, perhaps, Marcus, there is no longer a "national cake" to be shared.<br>Even if the relative proportions of Ndebele to Shona in Bulawayo were 4:1 (Ndebele to Shona - let me haste to add that these are arbitrary and NOT the real proportions in the City of Kings) and there were 80 Ndebele and 20 Shona people. One of the Shona there becomes our ice cream vendor, my greatest concern would still be that there are 99 unemployed people.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/27/03 03:55 PM
Jaz uthe: <p>I agree that these variations should NOT arise from ethnic discrimination as you argue is the case in Matebeleland.<p><br>Ngicela ukubuza uma uvume ukuthi kukhona "ethinic discrimination" eMthwakazi na?<p>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 12:05 PM
Jaz, ake upendule umbuzo wami mfowethu!<p>In case my SiNdebele was incorrect let me just ask again in English:<p>do you agree that there is ethnic discrimination (against Ndebeles) in Mthwakazi?<p>It just takes a yes or a no to answer!<p>:-)
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 12:48 PM
uJazi does not have an alternative game plan, lishona who is here to frustrate what ever plans the ndebele have. Too bad Jazi, or should i say too late, the winds of change have started sweeping acroos uMthwakazi, its either you join, or you stand aside and look.<p>uyez' umoya!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 12:54 PM
Marcus- sorry for the delayed response. The anser to your question is YES I believe that there is ethnic discrimination in Matebeleland and of people from the region. The questions to you are<p>1) Is this ethnic discrimination of and in Matebeleland of the same magnitude as that faced by black people in colonial Zimbabwe or apartheid South Africa?<p>2 Are ALL Matebeleland's ills down solely to ethnic discrimination? <p><br>3 Is the ethnic discrimination in Matebeleland a result of a popular and well supported Shona consipiracy theory?<p>4 Is the solution to ethnic discrimination in Matebeleland to agitate for an independent state?<p>5 Are Matebeleland's ills peculiar to the region and are not found elsewhere in Zimbabwe?<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 01:04 PM
Nobhutshuzwayo- have you bothered to read my "game plan" in my post dated 25/06/2003 (19:32). I think not. Your incessant cry that "uJazi lishona" suggests that at best you may be described as inarticulate and at worst as a man of limited ideas.
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 01:33 PM
wena shona wena uyahlanya sibili.<br> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>First and foremost as the thread topic says- get rid of Mugabe. The vehicle for achieving this is the MDC. I am aware that the MDC is not without short comings, but at the present moment it offers the best opportunity to get rid of the demagogue. Mthwakazi must engage constructively with the said vehicle and participate totally and completely turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to paranoid calls that state unreasonably that you cannot trust the Shona. In so doing (engaging constructively with the vehicle for change) Mthwakazi, no one would be in a position ot accuse Mthwakazi of disengaging herself from the rest of the country and people. Indeed in this very forum there are people who are steadfast in their refusal to define themselves as Zimbabwean.<br>Secondly, once the first objective has been attained, Mthwakazi should again participate in re-buidling Zimbabwe with respect to a new constitution in which would be enshrined the declaration of equality of all members of the country regardless of one's ethnic origin.Also in this constitution would be clause that states that all are equal before the law of the land. There would also be the usual limitiations on the number of terms that a president could serve. Where there are imbalances as a result of Mugabe's misrule, these could be re-dressed by equal opportunity type measures that are the rave in the US and England. Yes, Marcus, I accept that the Mugabe hegemony has spawned imbalances skewed against ethnic minorities not least the people of Mthwakazi. I hasten to add, however, that in this forum and others I feel that these imbalances are greatly and grossly exaggerated, for reasons not as yet clear to me.(which is why I have taken you to task about how many Shona people are out of the country above)<br>Thirdly, in this new and refreshing dispensation those that committed the heinous massacres in Matebeleland should be hauled before the courts and brought to book for their crimes against humanity. To this end Mthwakazi need not wait for the demise of Mugabe to conscientise those people in Zimbabwe who claim that they did not know about Gukurahundi. This can be done by distributing the Catholic Commision for Justice report on Matebeleland entittled Breaking the Silence- A report on the disturbances in Matebeleland. This report can be found in its entirety on the South African Mail and Guardian website and has been there since 1997. Which brings me to ask - how many of those jumping up and down about independence for Matebeleland own let alone read this report? Any sober minded and sane person reading this report particularly Shona and to a lesser extent Ndebele would agree that that sort of madness must never be allowed to happen again. In the instance where it is not possible to distribute whole copies of the report - excerpts may be published in the independent press as adverts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>you call this bullshitan alternative game plan??<p>1)Do you know that shortly after independence Bulawayo was the commercial hub of Zimbabwe?? What is your suggestion as far as luring investment/re-opening closed industry, and creating jobs for uMthwakazi?<p>2) Do you know who the gukurahundi was, or who it was aimed at?? Did gukurahundi achieve its objective/s?<p>3) Do you know that the majority of students at NUST are shona, and why?? Do yu believe in the myth that the ndebele don't like school, or that the shona are smarter than the ndebele?<p>4) Do you know that quite a sizeable number of temporary teachers, some in rural matabeleland primary schools are shona, and yet we have suitable ndebele candidates who are unemployed(NB these ndebeles also applied for the positions, me included at one point)<p>Why do you seem so preoccupied with absolving the shona of the blame, while alluding to Mthwakazi's apathy. Give it up jazi, ulishona nje wena. Nomungaze uthini, we will push on with our agenda<p>uyez'umoya!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 02:44 PM
It is a pure lie for Jazi to say he is a Ndebele! No one in his right mind should believe him!<p>We are not believing him and the content of his correspondence suggests otherwise. We are acutely aware that he has been abusing iJazi lobuNdebele to be a wolf in a sheep's skin. He thinks he can take us for a ride but that is a great joke! We know our own and we know their thinking because our common denominator of suffering under Shona Hegemony continues to bind together our way of thinking and our perceptions about our reality in Zimbabwe!<p>But we would be quick to point out that your Ndebele Jazi is fake and we have observed it in your comments. Ungake ube yiSilwane wena!<p>It is just like giving Indwangu isiKhumba sesiLwane and hoping Indwangu will become a lion. Inkomo ingazala umuntu kwaMhlahlandlela. The baboon will always maintain its behaviour of ubundwangu even though priding itself of wearing the skin of a lion and going about suggesting it is a lion!<p>His aim of trying to absolve the Shonas of any wrong doing has got him in a muddy position with regard to a pure and simple fact that the Ndebeles are discriminated against!<p>He openly agrees to this fact and then make a move to contradict himself unshamedly to say Matabeleland problems are not due to Shona discrimination. He acknowledges Shona hegemony but denies the fact it has paralysed development in our region. He acknoweldeges, in his own words, 'skewed' ethnic developments made in Zimbabwe but goes on to deny that tribalism is a major factor in the appalling underdevelopment we experience in Mat.land!<p>He has ducked each and every important and pertinent question that has been thrown at him and would prefer not to answer any. He refused to answer questions relating to the Shona Hegemonist SYSTEM that Mugabe and the larger Shona constistuency has created and thrived upon. I would gues he is restricting this evil SYSTEM to Mugabe and ZPF alone. We have asked pertinent questions as to where the psychopaths that murdered our kith and keen in 1983 were coming from, but no answer was given!<p>It is only Ntomba who has addressed the SYSTEM question perfectly and I have great respect for him. We will never delude ourselves and think that the SYSTEM was and is only restricted to Mugabe and ZPF. That is a pure lie and we can not succumb to that cheap ill-conceived and twisted propaganda coming from the Shona Hegemonist who have no regard for our lives. We are too smart for that!<p>Now you agree that Ndebeles are discriminated. Tell us how, where and what effect this discrimination has on them?<p>You agree that there is Shona Hegemony: For God's sake tell us how this hegemony manifests itself and how it is affecting our people and their development. Hegemony can not exist for the sake of the fact there is something called hegemony!<p>You definately need to respond to the racist and tribalist 1979 Document, that we are all in posession of and a review of that document which set out the road map for this Shona Hegemony that we experience today and the racism that we have seen flourishing from Mugabe and his Shona constituency!<p>Look wethu we are not blind to these events and never can your propaganda make us blind to these events!<p>Let it be made very clear to you and your lot that we will remain steadfast,committed and resolute to the cause we believe in!<p>The Hegemonists can shout at the mountains to wag their tails(if they have any), instruct stones to move(if they have thier feet), with the view that the tidal wave for the demand of an Indepenent state will stop or go away, but it never will!<p>All we have got from Mr Jazi is high sounding comments, made on this website, very verbose and lacking in umkantsho or reality signifying nothing in terms of real politics in Zimbabwe!<p>Le the Hegemonists be reminded that we have set ourselves on a tough road and we know it will not be easy but this goal will have to be realised. <p>Yikho phela sisithi:<p>Hlasela
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 03:10 PM
Thanks Jaz- and apologies for overlooking the admission you made earlier, that would have answered my question too.<p>As to the first question you raise I submit that oppression under colonialism was indeed of a different order of magnitude.<p>It is also in the past.<p>This is not to minimize this historical reality: at the same time please assure me you are not delving into history in oder to simply relativize what is happening now.<p>Because we whites oppressed Mthwakazi are you saying others are justified in perpetuating the behaviour?<p>As to the second question, there are secondary factors affecting Mat'land but in my view most of them are related directly or indirectly to the powerlessness of people in Mat'land to address their own situation.<p>As to the third question I think there is a wide degree of tacit support in other parts of the country for the restrictions imposed on political and economic development in Mthwakazi.<p>If you want to call that a "conspiracy" fine.<p>In a nutshell once we accept the fact of anti-Ndebele discrimination both in Mthwakazi and elsewhere then it occurs to me that the last two of the five ancillary questions you ask have the same answer: yes.<p>Jaz I think it is clear that you do have a distinctly different perspective on the issues under discussion to virtually every single Ndebele person I know.<p>I have accepted that you are an Ndebele because you have told me you are.<p>But I think you are quite a unique Ndebele.<p>:-)<p>Anyway, you bring a different perspective to the conversation and good luck to you.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 03:48 PM
Mr Chairman- with the greaest of respect my position is not self contradictory. I admit that there is discrimination in Matebeleland and that Matebeleland is underdeveloped but critically I go on to state that the underdevelopment is not peculiar to Matebeleland nor is unemployment. Sir, we are told that the unemployment rate in Zimbabwe is 70% does this rate only apply to Matebeleland?If this unemployment rate applies to the whole of Zimbabwe including Matebeleland then how can you stand up and shout that "Unemployment is high in Matebeleland and that is because of a Shona Hegemony" ? How can you stand and shout with a serious face that there is Shona hegemony when Shonas are equally unemployed? The logic escapes me!!!<p>Tell me Mr Chairman how is the life of an ordinary Shona person in Zimbabwe today better than that of a Ndebele person?<br>Tell me also Mr Chairman, how are you going to ensure that there is no ethnic discrimination in you independent Matebeleland?<p>Agreeing that there is discrimination does not tantamount to agreeing that there is hegemony nor to acquiescing to your Shona consipicary theory. <br>You are right to state that I absolve the Shona of blame for the many problems facing our region and our country. Unlike you I choose to aportion the blame to those whom it belongs to - Mugabe and his henchman and not the the whole of the Shona nation. Mugabe and his henchman have caused problems because they are leaders and not because they are Shona. We should be able to distinguish between the actions of the leaders and those of the people that they claim to represent. <br>The documents that you describe -the 1979 and the later document that came out last year, I have read both of them. The documents as you say are racist. Clearly they are the views of right-wing extremists. How widely distributed are these documents in Mashonaland? Are the sentiments expressed in them those of the Shona people in general or those of the people (leaders) that wrote them? Perhaps you know without a shadow of doubt that every Shona person in Zimbabwe has not only read but approves of those documents. Just because the documents were written by right-wing Shona extremists does not, in my view, mean that every Shona person subscribes to those views. Equally it is absurd in the extreme for you to expect that every Ndebele person to the last man, woman and child should subscribe to your fabrications, myths and propaganda. <br>Just as you want to go on deluding yourself that there is Shona conspiracy theory, please carry on with the delusion that I am Shona
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 04:08 PM
Nobhutshuzwayo - yes I call this "bullshit" an alternative gameplan in much the same manner as you call the views peddled here the roadmap fora better Matebeleland. Answers to you questions:<br>1 Yes I know that Bulawayo was the commercial hub of Rhodesia. I am not an economist so no I can not tell you how to create jobs or lure investment to Matebeleland.<br>2 Yes I know who the Gukurahundi were and what their intentions were - I have commented on them - have you not been paying attention AGAIN? And no their objectives were not achieved since you and I and other Ndebele people are alive today.<br>3 Yes I know that the marjority of students at NUST are Shona. But aren't the Shona the numerical marjority in the country? And is NUST not an national institution or was it purpose built for use solely by people from Matebeleland?<br>No I do not believe neither myths about Ndebeles not liking school or not being smarter than the Shona<br>4 So you believe that you should have been given a temporary teaching post simply because you were Ndebele?
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 04:12 PM
The Chairman<p>ngamafitshane, uthi sithathe izikhali yini?sizazithatha ngaphi?senze sibheka amazwe anje ngabo Iraq lokwenzakala khonale namhlanje uma siqoqa indlela esiza hamba ngayo ukuya khupha uMkabi lo.<br>ngicela wena ungichazele ngamafitshane ukuthi siyenzeni really.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 04:51 PM
Marcus- Rest assured - raising the issue of colonial opression is not to relativize (and hence trivialize) the issues that we are discussing but rather to highlight how systematic oppression results in a skewed and two-tier society. Oppression and suppression of whites by blacks was evidenced, amongst other things, by a much higher standard of living for the whites. Indeed it could be argued that whites lead first world lives while blacks lived in poverty and squalor. In Zimbabwe today we are told that there is systematic oppression of Matebeleland by the Shona and has been for the past twenty-three years. After all this time, surely there should be evident differences in living standards between those of the Shona and the Ndebele. Do these differences exist in much the same way as those between blacks and whites in colonial times?<p>There can never be any justification- historical or otherwise for oppressing anyone.<p>What you describe as "secondary factors" (an illegitimate and despotic government stifling the dreams and aspirations of its people) I would describe as primary and the powerlessness that you see in Matebeleland, I see all over Zimbabwe. It is this that I believe should be changed first before addressing the secondary issues of Matebeleland.<p>I disagree with your idea of a wide degree of tacit support for the marginalisation of Matebeleland - rather I believe that people the rest of the country are concentrated on the misery of their own condition. They, too, were shoes that pinch in as much as Matebeleland says its shoes are too tight.<p>Marcus, I must confess that once upon a time I used to hold many of the views that are expressed here. With time I have changed my position - I do not know whether that is regression or evolution. But they do say that "A wise man changes his mind; and a fool NEVER!"<br>
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 05:02 PM
Nobhutshuzwayo lo Chairman<p>uJazi ukuthi ulombono otshiyene lowenu madoda akutsho ukuthi uliShona- ngitsho.lapho i argument yenu is as empty as that of Jonathan Moyo loMkabi.You dare differ with them and you are labelled an arse-licker of the whites in Britain! Ake litshengisele umehluko phakathi kwenu lo Mkabi madoda!<p>Ngibona sengathi lapho abantu owawukhuluma labo ePub Chairman besithi babengakwazi ngendaba yokuhlukuluzwa kukaMthwakazi babeqinisile especially looking at the current manner in which ZBC(Zimbabwe Bullshitting Company) is blasting the entire country with sickening propaganda and blatant lies!Even emakhaya eMatabeleland if you were there during the elections pple believed in all the rubbish and intimidatory nonsense ababe yizwe ku ZBC!<p>AmaShona just like the Whites in South Africa who benefitted from Apartheid may not be in a hurry to push for changes but it doesnt mean that they are all against ther Matabele.iLeadership zabantu are the ones that mess up.A good example is that of uMdala who literally sold out his entire followers!Wayesithi silandele uMkabi thina?He was a shepherd who left his flock in the wilderness when he decided to play lamaKhanka eZANU.Wathi ejoiner iZanu he did it in the name of Mthwakazi but we all know today that isizwe sikaMthwakazi never joined but only the leadership.LamaShona lawo madoda certain things are done in their name but then bona as a majority may not be keen on what the leadership is doing.<p>Eyinye indaba eqakathekileyo madoda ngeyama Statistics- it is a fact that amaNdebele malutshwane by far compared to the Shona.So bad that even if all Ndebeles voted for the same party it wld not not win any elections eZimbabwe(look at what happened to the MDC). I think therefore oWelshman are doing the right thing ukuthi bafake iShort-sleeve phambili but then bona bengama brains behind.Therefore singathola iVote from amaShona besesi ziveza ngemva kokunqoba.<p>The other fact is that Mkabi is a clever man- like it or not.We will have to be very VERY clever to extract him from isihlalo lesiyana .These two facts have been overlooked especially ngabanye asebeke bazama b4 us, eg, MDC!<br>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 06:08 PM
Jaz thank you for setting out your position so clearly.<p>I would just like to point out that the secondary factors I was referring to include the emergence of an elite that is dependent on Mkabi for power and which abuse and exploit their unelected office - I am referring for example to the various dogs in gubernatorial positions in Mat'land.<p>They are not Shonas but they are Mkabi's toyboys.<p>The powerlessness which I regard as the underlying, primary factor is simply the hold which Mkabi has, as head of the centralised post-colonial state.<p>So in short my belief is that if that State did not exist then the power which has been used to oppress the people of Mat'land - and admittedly other places, to a lesser degree, would pass to the people of each region to allow them to administer their own affairs.<p>I think we have each demarcated our positions quite clearly.<p>Interesting that you say you have changed your ideas with time - that is of course your right.<p>I too have changed mine and though it would be easier to say Mkabi is the answer to all out troubles I know that is not the case.<p>And I know that he used tribal dynamics to crush Mthwakazi in the 1980s.<p>And I know that tribal dynamics supported him quite well then and for some time thereafter.<p>And I know that if there had not been very considerable prominence given to the tribalist factors involved in food distribution and some initial indications that some form of Gukurahundi units were going to be redeployed in Mat'land - and I mean<br>very <br>very<br>very<br>very<br>considerable prominence that many people including myself and possibly yourself and some others worked to give these issues to ensure international pressure and publicity then we may have seen worse things happening than we have seen in Mat'land.<p>What has happened once can happen again.<p>This has been the case in Rwanda and Burundi.<p>Because it did not happen again today does not mean it could not happen again tomorrow.<p>The price of our security must be eternal vigilance.<p>And I intend to work with others to ensure that these tribal dynamics, which have a proven track record of existence, will never work again.<p>Let me observe that there is a growing belief among some of your cousins, my cousin, that one of the reasons Mkabi has pushed for white farmers to be cleared from the land is so that these people, with their social and political and economic connections to the outside world are no longer in a position to observe what is happening in rural areas and to act as "earthquake sensors" for the earthquakes he and his colleagues are preparing for the future.<p>This is a thought I encountered just a few days ago.<p>I pass it on for the comments and consideration of yourself Jaz and for our other colleagues here.<p>Just because Marcus is paranoid does not mean that there are no monsters wishing to devour us.
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 07:46 PM
Lingakhohlwa ukuthi u-Jazi ku-debate ye'creative destroyers'ubethi kayazi i-evidence yokuthi abantu bakithi babulawa yiG'hundi lokuthi ama shona are destroying Blawayo's economy.Today he is someone who after reading the CCJP document is trying to tell us about it.<p>Fine I understand Jazi's unwavering support for the MDC but it does not mean that nxa yena esekhombe iMDC then all of us should.Phela we cant put all our eggs in one basket-his basket.<br>For me that we should have an independent Mat'land is not tribal but what is clear to me is that no matter what effort the people of Mat'land make to work with the current crop of tribally based Zanu Pf shona people it will never work.Kwehlula umdalauNkomo njalo kuzehlula bonke abazakuzama.<br>B4 the Mdc was formed the leader of the Trade Union movement was G Sibanda but when this party was formed Morgan was shot-up to lead the party and Gibson became the deputy.What does this tell about working with these people.What guarantee is there that if MDC were to take over there would be no mysterios killings of selected leaders from Mat'land like we've seen over the past 23 years to nuetralise and confuse our people.In other words I will never trust working with Shonas because out of everything happening they have a seperate agenda which is always tribally based and discriminating against all others.<p>What ever people like Jazi may have evolved/matured to be we are all aware of his high ground which is dedicated to absolving Shona people no matter what?Those at home know exactly as highlighted in many discusions b4 that their strategy is to Bamba-zonke.Carry on Jazi supporting the Mdc and let those who want to create an independent Mthwakazi pursue that goal, you might find it useful later.iTotal commitment kuMDC u can do it labanye.
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/30/03 09:09 PM
toots, do not be fooled by Jazi's condescending attitude. Thina sesiphile labo abantu abanjalo. I do agree to diagree but if you look in between Jazi's post, you'll realize that this man is a shona thru and thru. <br> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Jazelindizayo posted 25-06-2003 15:11 Mthwakazian Time <br>.....Thus I feel I must ask you, would you say that the oppression of the Ndebele by the Shona is in anyway of the same order of magnitude as that of Blacks by whites in colonial Rhodesia?. Conditions prevailing then include <br>a) a two tier educational system designed to hinder the education of African while promoting white education and opportunity<br>b) a two tier health system - infant mortality rates that were appreciably lower for the whites than the blacks, higher life expectancy for the whites<br>c) higher employment rates for the whites<br>Do any of these conditions apply in modern day Zimbabwe? Given that white people benefited and in the main did nothing to stop this abuse of Africans would it be fair to blame them as much as the system for these abuses (in much the same way as you blame the Shona for Mugabe's outrages)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br>So whats your point Jazi?? should the Ndebele be thankful that the shona are not as brutal as white people were?? Otherwise it could be worse for us huh???<p>Jazi>"4 So you believe that you should have been given a temporary teaching post simply because you were Ndebele? "<<p>Isn't the same happening for the shona, aren't they getting first preference in rural mashonaland primary schools, or are you going to bring up the statistics again. In primary school(mat'land thus), Ndebele is taught from grades 1-7, and how can a non-ndebele speakign person effectively teach ndebele?? What do you think the criteria for choosing teachers in rural matabeleland should be besides qualifications of cause, since being ndebele is not necessary??<p>MDC is against the economic emancipation of Mthwakazi simply because the shona are scared of reverse genocide. Giving the Ndebele their right to govern themselves is tantamount to surrender and is inconcievable to the ilk's of Jazi. The Ndebele have a proven track record of being good managers(look at ndebele run parastatals in contrast with shona run parastatals). Matabeleland has the capabilities of becoming the strongest region in Zimbabwe if left to the locals to run their affairs. But Jazi thinks we should thank our maker the shona are not as brutal as smith, and given that every one in zimbabwe is suffering, we should not complain, we should not try to better ourselves, but instead, we should suffer with the rest of zimbabwe in peace.<br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 10:14 PM
Sthutha - "Lingakhohlwa ukuthi u-Jazi ku-debate ye'creative destroyers'ubethi kayazi i-evidence yokuthi abantu bakithi babulawa yiG'hundi" THIS IS A BLTANT LIE - in which one of the posts on the "creative destroyers" thread did I question the Gukurahundi massacres. I challenge you to copy and paste that post on this thread<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 10:34 PM
Nobhutshuzwayo- No the point is not that Ndebele people should be grateful that the Shona are not as brutal as the whites. The point was/is that whites oppresed blacks and one of the outcomes of that oppression is that whites lead better lives than blacks - that is a well documented fact - look up and compare infant mortality and life expectancy rates for whites and blacks for example in Smith's Rhodesia. If the Shona have been oppressing Ndebele people for over twenty three years as you allege then one of the outcomes of that oppression is that the standard of lving of the Shona should be significantly higher than that of the Ndebele. Are you honestly telling me and the world at large that the Shona people in Zimbabwe enjoy a better standard of lving than that of the Ndebele people?<br>This is point that I have explained before in my response to Marcus, it is mildly amusing that in your haste, to prove that I am Shona, you should latch on to it and deliberately twist and misconstrue it to suit another of your half baked ideas.<p>On the one hand your talk about Ndebele people being denied jobs by the Shona and in the very next breath you boast about Ndebele parastatal managers being better than the Shona. I also recall that you yesterday you wrote "Do yu believe in the myth that the ndebele don't like school, or that the shona are smarter than the ndebele?" So let me get this right - its not okay for the Shona to utter these myths as you call them but its OK for you to suggest that the Ndebele are better managers than the Shona. I think you will find that this is called hypocrisy.<p>And no I did not say that people is Zimbabwe should suffer in silence. Again I urge you to rad my "gameplan" But you might find that difficult since you have already dismissed it as "bullshit". Again it is amusing that you should seek twist and turn things that I have written to suit your own warped ideas.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 10:54 PM
Sthutha- I read and downloaded the CCJP report in 1997 when it came out. I think you will find that this was long before this site was established.<p>Marcus- the idea of devolving State power and promoting regional autonomy as a tool for minimising State abuse of that power is an attractive one. However what checks and balances would you have to ensure that the autonomous regions do not abuse the power develoved to them?<br>In an autnomous Matebeleland how would you ensure that there is not the creation of a political elite and their associated hangers on?<br>I would not be so rash as to dismiss the "thought you encountered" It would not surprise me in the least if those were Mugabe's intentions. Getting rid of the farmes coupled with the ban on foreign journalists would appear to add credence to such thoughts. One can never be sure of the machinations of despots and mad-men.
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 12:10 PM
Jazi,<p>Much as i may agree with you some of your painful truths that i may not want to be reminded of as a Mthwakazian i think you need to accept that the 'oppression' of the Ndebele by the Shona is indirect and very systematic.<br>I wld prefer a BOER to a British person because he will tell you straight up that 'I hate you becoz you are black!Obviously you know where you stand.But the the latter will not tell it to you direct but will make you sense it- killing you softly everyday that you are with them.<p>The current crop of leaders in ZANU-PF rose thru the ranks by their ranting and raving abt the Shona's being a majority and not needing Nkomo and the minority Ndebeles.They will never throw away this tribal card that has proved to be an ace in the past.<p>How do you explain the electric train that ends at Gweru?<p>Also how do you explain the prioritisation of the Harare Airport project over a water project for millions of Matabele(MZWP).The airport is (WAS!) for a lone user who has since been barred from travelling around the globe!<br>Mind you all these things come with an employment package for the populations where they are to be developed.This drives me to the point yokuthi amaShona generally have higher standards of living than Ndebeles.YES they do.Also you will be reminded that izikolo eze Alevel in Mat South ezilamaSciences bezi ntathu up to 1997!ie Mzingwane, Manama, Thekwane.3 kuphela!
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 12:31 PM
Jazi<p>angisaqedisanga kuhle laphana<br>Ubu lutshwane bezikolo ezile A level in Matland was to have been addressed by this gvt in the '80s but alas the planning only accommodated the Provinces up north. <p>Therefore iNUST(National Uni of SCIENCE and technology) at inception in 1992 up to khathesi has not had lots of students from Matabeleland ngoba simply there were 3 schools offering the required Science subjects at NUST. <p>Maybe it was the Whites who built the Kutamas, Goromonzis, PEs, Dadaya, etc and many other Alevel schools but then we do not need a super statistician for a President or education ministers to see this anormally in the distribution of Public schools<p>
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 12:42 PM
BoBaba<p>Ngicela ukuli khumbuza ukuthi uma lifuna ngempela ukuthi umuzi kaMthwakazi uzalwisana lowamaShona asiqaleni ngokufaka isamende phakathi laphakathi kwezitina ezakhe owethu umuzi.<p>Smaller ethnic groups need to be emalgamated and need to know what is in store for them!Hantsho liyabona okwayenzakala eBeitbridge ngama elections.Next time yi Plumtree or Binga. This is crucial madoda.<p>ndofhedza nne mu Venda
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 01:08 PM
Toots - my position is not dogmatic nor based on dogma. I have admitted and will do so again that there is ethnic oppression of and in Matebeleland. What I have disputed and will continue to do is how this oppression is turned into a casus belli for those arguing for seccession. My opinion is that people here and elsewhere do not want to acknowledge that situation in Matebeleland and Zimbabwe is a complex one- things are not black and white as they would have us believe, thus the high unemployment in Matebeleland is NOT caused by Shona oppression alone - unemployment is also high in other parts of the country. Thus in admitting that there is oppression one is simply acknowledging the complexity of the situation.<br>May I aslo commend you - you are the first person to say that you believe that the Shona enjoy a higher standard of living than the Ndebele. How is their standard of living better than ours? With respect, i do not think that the Shona enjoy a standard of living any high or better than ours. I think conditions in Mashonaland are as much Third World as they are in Matebeleland.<p>You rightly point out the paucity of schools offering A'level sciences in Matebeleland South. This indeed may be evidence of systematic oppression. Perhaps this is one of those problem areas that are specific to Matebeleland and that need to be addressed. However, I am sure you will appreciate that this government has failed all the provinces including Matebeleland, but not all the provinces have been failed in the same way or deprieved of the same resources.<p>The tribal card that you talk of may have in the past been an ace, but I believe that the reality that voting for someone simply because of their ethnicity does not pay is slowly dawning upon people in Zimbabwe. Do you think that the Shona would give a damn if the president happened to be Ndebele and there was full employment and prosperity in Zimbabwe??
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 01:21 PM
Interesting question, Jaz. I suppose I would reply that the position, for example, of whites just as much as other sub groups has become so bad in Zimbabwe it could not get much worse in Mthwakazi.<p>I suppose we need to register that the socalled "Abenhla" and AmaHole" far outnumber the "AbeZansi" component of our society and therefore we should accomodate all groups in a non-discriminatory democracy which does not see legal significance in one person being Ncube, another being Gumede, another being Fengu, another being Nkiwane, another being Patel, another being Thomas.<p>For myself I stick to a simple message - all minorities need to collaborate if they are to have a future in our region.<p>The people I respect in Mthwakazian affairs tend to reinforce this perception from their own perspectives.<p>Of course there are others who have ulterior motives.<p>On the internet there are funny chaps who use multiple names and they are not really of much importance.<p>In any event, I am sure that after the dust over Mkabi's downfall has settled we will see who has been fooling who.<p>I just hope we generally - white and Ndebele - have learned from history so history does not keep repeating itself.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 02:33 PM
toots<p>you will have to ask yourself mfowethu ukuthi why have we not labelled you a Shona, when you have expressed ideas that are not in concordance with our line of thinking on certain issues!<p>but hey there other issues that are real and factual, that we all know and experience and your latest contribution indicates this pure simple fact.<p>Now if you get an individual who denies reality and keeps on mouthing his warped, ill-conceived and twisted propaganda to absolve the Shona Hegemonist System of any blame to the situation we face as Mthwakazians, what would you think of that individual?<p>The facts are bare and its kind like someone telling you ukuthi imbuzi ensikazi ngenduna, while liyikhangele lobabili iphakamise umsila and its reproductive organs esegcekeni etshengisa ukuthi ngensikazi, kodwa umfo lo aqineke ngokuthi ngenduna!<p>Definately you will come to a conclusion that there is an element of psychotic phenomena in him or he is deleberately arguing this for the sake of other interests he has about this imbuzi, which are only known to himself!<p>Mr Jazi's arguments can not be sustained and they lack depth in reality and context of our situation. However remain very rich and highly steeped in political spin and pure lies to try and prove that imbuzi le ngenduna! He knows that that is impossible to do but will continue to spin like Jonathan Moyo and fill us with blatant lies!<p>He reminds me of Saddam's information Minister, Ali, now popularly known as Comical Ali in the West! This man denied, right up to the end, that the Allied Troops were in the Capital Baghadad, till Baghadad fell to the allied forces, even though evidence was to the contrary!<p>He continued to spout his warped and twisted propaganda till Baghadad fell to allied troops. He remains a laughuing stoke, though his presentation skills were very good. He would convince those who were not exposed to reality and the truth. <p>But Jazi we are exposed to reality of our situation and the Comical Ali style propaganda is the worst you can try on us. <p>We therefore have another Comical Shona Hegemonist, who wants to defend the status quo of the Shona as a majority ethnic group by absolving them of any blame of systematically sideling minority groups in development circles ....and this is us the Ndebele!<p>We can not regard him as a man of substance if he continues to deny reality and the truth. Surely there has to be difference between one who suffers from psychotic phenomena, whose perception of reality is always warpe up in an unreal World and twisted, to a gentleman who is not afflicted by this phenomena!<p>We say:<p>Hlasela!<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 05:01 PM
Mr Chairman- And off course that reality and truth are as defined by you and others with a similiarly warped agenda. <br>Mr Chairman you will be pleased to know that I envy you. Yes thats right I envy you. I, too wish that I could inhabit that cloud cuckoo land where everything is either black or white and there are no shades of grey. My message is plain and simple - the situation and factors affecting the development of Matebeleland are diverse and complex. But in the never-never land of that you inhabit there is only one factor that affects development in Matebeleland and that being Shona Hegemony (I am surprised that today hegemony was not put in capitals as is your usual habit nor have you used the word appeaser anywhere in your post!!). <br>Of imbuzi ezinsikazi lezinduna- again it is mildly amusing that, that which you accuse me of you, Mr High and mighty Hlasela are guilty of. That being your accusation that I am Shona. Could it not be a case of the pot calling the kettle black?. You can insist all you want, hell you can even write hegemony in capitals and even use hegemony and appeaser in the same post perhaps even in the same sentence, the fact of the matter is that I am Ndebele as sure as night follows day. As I said to one of your acolytes if it makes the world a safer place for you- safe enough for you to switch of the light when you go to bed, safe enough for you to pop to the corner store for a loaf of bread, for you to think that I am Shona the by all means go ahead. I would not want to held responsible for one of you psychotic episodes!!
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 05:15 PM
Marcus- my greatest fear is that on the morning after the night before of Matebeleland independence a man will wake up and still find himself unemployed, unable to express his views and desires without fear for his well being. That has already happened in Zimbabwe. We were told that the conditions of our lives were miserabble because of the white man (his system), we got rid of him (his system) but still the misery of our existence is with us today. Today we are told our the conditions of our lives is miserable because of the Shona (some believe the man and not the system, others yet still the system and not the man) and so we should get rid of him (the Shona). I am of the opinion that independence change nothing but that is not to advocate for the maintenance of the status quo. <br>The vision that you have of all people, tribes and colours living together in Matebeleland in peace but not in pieces is an admirable one. I too have that dream but for the whole of Zimbabwe and not just Matebeleland. <br>As you say time will tell and we will see who has been fooling who
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 06:19 PM
Jazi, your being shona does not change my world in a single way, i'm just saying you are an infiltrator who is here to cause confusion. Since you say shona hegemony is not the cause of the sufering of the ndebele people, then i take it you know the real cause, and i like you to tell me what it is.<p>You say gukurahundi didn't achieve its objective?? what maks you say so, and what was gukurahundi's objective in the first place??<p>Oh! since we have two or three ndebeles in running parastatals then we should not complain that we are marginalized. again you allude to your view that the shona are not brutal enought, we are just complaining. There are 1.2m + ndebeles scattered in southa africa, Namibia and Botswana, but still you don't see any reason why they left their beloved Zimbabwe, not mentioning that quite a sizeable number of them left the country long before the current economic meltdown.<p>You say every one in Zimbabwe is suffering, yes i agree with you. there is no food, petrol and other necessities. So whether you have money or you don't there's still nothing to buy, but would the situation be different if there was food, petrol and other basic commodities?? hell yeah!!!The shona would be living large compared to the ndebele.<p>You are so engrossed in absolving the shona of all the blame that you don't mention the suffering of the ndebele, no i take that back, you deny the suffering of the ndebele people as a result of your people Jazi. Angikaze ngibone indebele elithi "ah, umakhelwane wami uyadubeka, so akusimina ngedwa engidubekayo, ngidubeka lenengi" whether umakhelwane wakho uyadubeka kumbe akadubeki, you have to take care of your house first, and then eyakho indlu nxa isisuthisekile usuzakhangela umakhelwana. Lokho okokuthi we should not concerntrate on Mthwakazi's problems because the whole of Zimbabwe is suffering is just pure bullshit. The current problems are comprehensive we all know that jazi, asisizo zilima thina, but before the current nonsense thina vele besilenhlupho zethu.<br>
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 06:31 PM
What i still remember is that you did put a strong case for statistics ku discussion ye-creative destroyers.You are the only person who can tell what statistics and evidence you wanted.<p>What do you exactly mean by complex and diverse each time you address the underdevelopment of Mat'land by the Shona?Can you be more elaborate and eliminate the Third World Underdevelopment theory that seems to be the shield you use each time you address this issue.<p>To me if your argument was like -What did we expect the Shona to do now that they were in control after a severe armed struggle?They adopted a first come first serve approach to the cake left by the colonial gvt.They might have undermined the impact of the G'hundi or such things.I might understand you.<p>Where you fail me is that because you support the MDC you think that any other approach contrary to yours is Wrong and this is the reason why you think Mthwakazians should participate fully in your chosen path.What check mechanisms are there in the party of your choice that the issues I asked you in my earlier posting would not take place.<p>To many of us un-employment in Mat'land is obviously high compared to other areas coz we aware that the industry's managemnt and all employment facilities eg Human resources/personnel managers are 98.-% Shona and you would not expect those guys to employ anyone they do not know when their relatives and brothers do not have jobs.This state of affairs is coupled with the rampant purchasing of companies in Bulawayo and their subsequent looting.Most bank managers in Byo are Shona and these people expect you to speak in Shona while applying for a loan or doing any bank business.Limited numbers of people in Byo get bank loans and this results in their in-ability to be indeginous business people.This is obviously not the case for Shonas and as you may not know they own some of the most expensive properties in the low density surbubs of Byo.They own most shops.Why is this so?They obviously enjoy a high standard of living because they have the jobs, the money ,they get the scholarship and have access to all opportunities.This explains the level of corruption,nepotism and a general state of decay in Zim.They call it 'Black Empowerment'which benefits them only.<p>We know all these things and aware that they are deliberately implemented to ensure that we play second fiddle to them.Is that<br>not oppression?Does that not lower the standard of our people when most young people finish school to either go to SA or sell tomatoes or sell their bodies?GO to Zvakapressa Shna discussion and you will know that these people hate Mthwakazi.<p>I said b4 that Jazi its been too long since you were home.Go there today and see for yourself how life for your fellow mates has become at the hands of these Tribalist Zanu Pf shonas.I cannot understand why you do not know this.Could be you are very young and living large.These people hate us.You might be inclusive of them but what is the point when no one will listen to you.<p>A free Mthwakazi will reduce the chances of a terrible civil war that I see looming.You can choose not to accept the above scenario for other reasons but you are not everybody.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 06:49 PM
Jaz all I can do is repeat that whatever Mthwakazi will be like I cannot imagine that it will be worse than Zimbabwe has been in so many respects.<p>And mfowethu if it is a place with problems -as every place has its problems - then Marcus will still be around, fighting against those problems and against those people who cause those problems and possibly even causing a few problems for problematic people too.<p>:-)<p>Jaz I have enjoyed the dialogue as I have enjoyed reading the contributions from our colleagues but it is time for me to take a sabbatical from this forum.<p>I am going to settle back therefore for a time just to listen and read what others are saying and thinking - or saying and not thinking - or thinking and not saying.<p>I wish you well mfowethu - as I wish all who frequent this site well.<p>By all means please make your presence felt at the allzimbabwe site where there are a number of contributors well worth following.<p>PS Mr Mpho Ncube, I look forward to reading your next thesis!<br>
Posted By: Saduva Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/01/03 08:18 PM
<br>Harare AGAIN, takes priority over Matabeleland!<p><p><p>July 1, 2003 <br>Ruth Butaumocho<br>Harare <p>CONSTRUCTION of the Kunzvi Dam that is set to finally put an end to perennial water problems in Harare and its environs is long over due.<p>The Government recently re-tendered the Kunzvi Dam project after a poor response by contractors to an initial tender put out in March.<p><p>Kunzvi Dam project, which has been on the cards for a long time, has left many wondering whether it would take off after being shelved for a long time.<p>The dam, to be built at the confluence of Nyagui and Nora Rivers in Goromonzi district falls in a different catchment area from Chivero, Manyame, Seke and Harava Dams, which derive their water from Manyame River.<p>The project, which includes, construction of Nora Weir, is a structure with flood embankments on flanks, and a combined volume of 18 229 cubic metres.<p>According to a United Nations report, world water supplies were falling while demand was dramatically growing.<p>It is envisaged that during the next 20 years, the average supply of water worldwide per person is expected to drop by a third.<p>With such a projection of a doomed future for many without water, Kunzvi Dam would ensure availability of water in a number of areas, increasing the country's water supply.<p>Once completed, the dam project is also expected to ease critical water problems being faced by the residents of Harare, Chitungwiza, Ruwa and Norton, in addition to being an alternative source.<p>Delays in the construction of Kunzvi Dam had resulted in the greater stress the city is facing in providing water to residents and its environs.<p>Erratic water supplies have been one of the most persistent problems that have seen council having to search for foreign currency for water treatment chemicals.<p>In Norton, for instance, residents especially those in low-density areas of Knowe are using water from wells and boreholes since the problem arose in the town some three months ago. The desperate situation in the town had forced many residents to buy water from those who have boreholes.<p>Development of Kunzvi Dam would also mean that Harare and its satellite towns would be able to get fresh water, free from industrial effluent, instead of recycled water that the city is currently using.<p>By having fresh water for consumption, the City of Harare would spend less on water treatment, as is the case currently, where council has had to pump out thousands of dollars in foreign currency to procure water treatment chemicals.<p>Water from the dam is also expected to benefit irrigation schemes in Murehwa and other surrounding areas.<p>Besides guaranteeing the country's food security through provision of water, the Kunzvi Project would also create thousands of jobs.<p>The project is in line with the Government's plans to boost agricultural production through irrigation, which is increasingly becoming popular and a reliable alternative.<p>Zimbabwe and other countries in the region have been experiencing a change in the rainfall cycle, owing to a shift in climatic conditions the world over.<p>The shift has seen the region experiencing frequent and severe droughts, floods and other adverse natural phenomenon that has had effects on agriculture and water availability.<p>With such persistent climatic changes that have not only affected the Southern region, but the world over, research has also revealed that world water reserves are drying up fast, owing to booming population and global warming among other factors.<p>The Government should channel more resources in the construction of dams and the conservation of other man-made water sources to sustain the resource's availability, to boost agricultural activities in the country.<p>The country has drawn important lessons in the last two droughts on the need to have alternative sources of water, should the rains fail.<p>But because the country had not anticipated a drought period, the Government had to channel millions of dollars for food aid.<p>One of the effective ways that have been used by other countries to overcome the unpredictable nature of rains, has been the use of irrigation and underground water resources.<p>For instance, countries in the Middle East have had to resort to underground water reserves for both agricultural and drinking requirements.<p>A typical example is China, which depends on irrigated land to produce 70 percent of the grain for its huge population of 1,2 billion people, and does not rely heavily on the rains.<p>Back home, one of the many success stories born out of irrigation initiatives is the Nuanetsi Irrigation Project, where most farmers and the country at large, are hinging their hopes on.<p>The project, where 100 000 hectares of land have been opened up for irrigated maize, is an Agricultural and Rural Development Authority scheme, emanating from a policy initiative taken by the Minister of Lands, Agriculture and Rural Resettlement, Dr Joseph Made.<p>If successful, the Nuanetsi project situated in the rural district council of Mwenezi in Masvingo province is set to restore the country's tag as the bread basket of Africa.<p>While Nuanetsi project is a good start, it would need to be complemented with other initiatives from both the private and public sector to ensure that there is enough food to meet the country's needs.<p>On its part, the Government has set aside $3 billion for irrigation to ensure continuous agricultural production irrespective of whether there is rainfall or not with the view to save the nation from starvation.<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 07:32 AM
Marcus - Indeed it would appear that our discourse has run its natural course. There has been verbal jousting here and there but the main there has been an exchange of ideas and clarification of stances in a non-combative manner and that has been refreshing. What is left to be said is that "hail fellow well met" and no doubt our paths will cross again but as you say -kusinwa kudedelwana. So long for now.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 07:49 AM
Nobhutshuzwayo- First and foremost I wish to state that I am not Shona but Ndebele. And you acknowledge this then I shall continue to be condescending towards you as and when I feel like it.<br>Secondly, I was not a member of the Gukurahundi nor of Mugabe's inner circle. Therefore I cannot give the bona fide intentions of the Gukurahundi. I would presume that since they were engaged in genocide and genocide is generally concerned with the extermination of peoples, their objective was to exterminate the Ndebele. Since I am here- of flesh and blood and being Ndebele as are others including you, I think it is safe to conclude that the Gukurahundi did not achieve its objectives. Juding by your insistence in asking this question it would appear that you have greater and better insight of this issue which you bursting to tell this forum and the world at large. But rest assured Nobhutshuzwayo, I Jazelindizayo, will not be holding my breath for that great event.<p>Your diatribe about my being in denial about Ndebele suffering is again mildly amusing. I seriously think that you ought to consider a career as a stand up comedian though it is not clear at this point in time what would be the greater joke yourself or your act. It is clear from this latest explosion in incoherence that it is either you have not read any of the posts or that if you have read them then you have not understood them. The other day I accused you of being either inarticulate or being a man of limited ideas. It would appear that I was wrong - you are both inarticulate and of limited ideas.<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 08:10 AM
Sthutha- making a case for statistics and evidence does not add up to denying the Gukurahundi massacres. I have never denied nor questioned the issue of the Gukurahundi and for you to make unsubstantiated allegations to the effect that I have (denied) is highly disturbing and I think that you owe me an apology.<p>And to the rest of your post- Have I been home lately - yes I was in Zimbabwe in late April/early May of this year. In Harare I saw squalid conditions and a people suffering, in Bulawayo I saw squalid conditions and people suffering. The Zimbabwe that you describe where the Shona have a higher standard of living and all the jobs is one that I did not see during my visit, neither have I read about it anywhere else other than on this forum and in your post. I do not agree with you that all Shona people hate the Ndebele - the truth of the matter is that SOME Shona people hate the Ndebele and do SOME Ndebele people hate the Shona. I choose not to subscribe your black and white definition of the world. My age or whether I am living large or not are not relevant to this discussion<br>With respect to the issue of my reverting to saying the problems of Matebeleland are complex and diverse. With the greatest of respect I have already elaborated in my discussion with Marcus- for example on the issue of employment I did state that there is ethnic discrimination in employment matters in Matebeleland. At the same time there is high unemployment in the rest of the country (because of a shrinking economy). Thus there are two factors affecting employment in Matebeleland - ethnic discrimination and the poor economy. How then can you attribute high unemployment in Matebeleland to ethnic oppression only while ignoring the poor performance of the economy?
Posted By: sivalo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 12:00 PM
why dont you all ignore this fool maybe it will go away...i'll keep praying!
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 12:08 PM
<br>" How can you stand up and shout with a serious face that there is Shona Hegemony when the Shonas are equally unemployed" ( Jazi, comments dated 30/06/03)<p>we take it you do not believe that there is Shona Hegemony which manifests itself with the ethnic discrimination of the Ndebele!<p>If there is no discrimination of the Ndebele, then it is safe to conclude that there is no Shona Hegemony in place in Zimbabwe!<p>If there is discrimination of any kind, then it is safe for us to say that this has led to Shona supremacy at work places!<p>and then you say this:<p><br>"Thus there are two factors affecting employment in Matebeleland - ethnic discrimination and the poor economy."( Jazi, comments dated 02/07/03)<p>You can not accept that there is ethnic discrimination of the Ndebeles and then rule out Shona Hegemony or Shona Supremacy or Shona Dominance!<p>Furthermore if there are two factors in Matland affecting employment, tell how many factors are there in Mashonaland affecting employment? poor economy!<p>If we have two factors that affect us and others have one factor, largely of their own mismanagement and nepotism, who are suffering the most?<p>You can not treat unequals equally!<p>And unequals will never suffer equally. <p>I hope this hammers some sense in you!<p>Above all this, your above statements are evidence enough of you being self-contraditory. They greatly illustrates that you are out of touch with reality. There is no greater evidence than this to suggest that you live in a different planet than us, if not in your 'Cuckoo land' that you allude to!<p>And your fondness and obsession with the word STATISTICS is amazing. It is STATISTICS, STATISTICS, STATISTICS yet you can not provide any!<p>But they say one who lives by the sword dies by the sword. The Statistics in this thread as regard the larger causes of unemployment and marginalisation of our people point to the fact that your argument represents 0.5% and the other contributors' arguments indicate 99.5% representation of our real situation in Zimbabwe!<p>We call upon alll the contributors to come and burry Comical Jazi with his own obessional sword of STATISTICS!<p>After the burrial we should never forget to:<p>HLASELA!<p><br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 12:51 PM
Mr Chairman - I must applaud your latest attempts at reason debate even though the logic of your arguments remains twisted and convoluted. Even though the effort is commendable it all the more unfortunate that you should resort to type and end your post with your usual posturing and petty Zanu-pf like sloganeering. This "hlasela" business and in capitals too, really does not flatter you.<p>"we take it you do not believe that there is Shona Hegemony which manifests itself with the ethnic discrimination of the Ndebele" <p>The response to this seriously flawed logic is "Marcus- sorry for the delayed response. The anser to your question is YES I believe that there is ethnic discrimination in Matebeleland and of people from the region. The questions to you are" (my post dated 30-06 -2003)<p>"If there is no discrimination of the Ndebele, then it is safe to conclude that there is no Shona Hegemony in place in Zimbabwe"<p>No it is not safe to conclude that there is no Shona hegemony since the above post dated 30-06-2003 deals with this. Again it is either you have not been following the debate or in your haste to "hammer sense" into me your took leave of your senses.<p>"You can not accept that there is ethnic discrimination of the Ndebeles and then rule out Shona Hegemony or Shona Supremacy or Shona Dominance!"<p>I have accepted that there is Shona domination or HEGEMONY (since you so do seem to love this word) I have also accepted that the economy is poor. I have accepted that since there are two facors affecting employment in Matebeleland it is not rational to bleat about unmployment in Matebeleland being due only to Shona hegemony. Clearly you have difficulty in uderstanding this simple point and I cannot simplify any furhter than I already have.<p>The statistics that you quote are meaningless - it is akin having ten people in a room and nine of the lunatics and one sane. The nine lunatics all believe that the sky is green and the one sane person believes that the sky is blue. <p>So venerable (or is it venereal?) Mr Chairman you have hammered no sense into me because you have no sense to spare let alone hammer into anyone. <br> I must conclude by confessing that not only do I envy you and the land that you inhabit, I also have deep sense of admiration for your concrete -like mind - all mixed and permanently set!!
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 05:04 PM
Jazi<br>The higher standard of living yamaShona comes about becos kumaScience schools lawa is where they learn ukuba a) ngodokotela<br> b) computer technician/engineer/programmer<br> c)Acturial scientist<br> d)electrician<br> e)pharmarcist etc and many other SCIENCE-related jobs.<p>Am sure you will agree with me that Science related professions are usually well-paying and are not flooded by jack and jills.so amaNdebele are simply cut off from these high earners cos of this lack of Schools offering sciences.With compromise professions, we end up doing general degrees, getting general jobs, earning general salaries.We even end up getting married to general wives and having general children!<br> <br> <br>
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 05:27 PM
sthutha<p>Ke ngibuze mfowethu ukuthi i free Mthwakazi yethu leyi do you believe (not that i dont believe- angikwazi) that we have adequate resources eg 1)energy supplies (hopefully you won't mention that black pollutive soon-to-be-banned fossil fuel mined in Hwange!) 2)water supplies, 3)commercially arable land(hopefully it's not only good for ranching sicine singa ma cowboy sonke).<p>i am no defeatist as far as a free independent Mthwakazi is concerned but i really need to be convinced.So ngicela ungiphe ama facts ngembuzo engilayo and ignite in me a fire wena olayo.Make me vote for this when the time comes my brother<p>inkundla ngeyakho sthutha....tshono
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/02/03 05:28 PM
Toots - ngiyawuzwisisa umbono wakho. It is true that all the jobs that you mention are well paying. But other science jobs/degrees are not so well paying (and this I say from my own personal experience lest I be accused of dodging the issue!!)<br> <br>Secondly let us put the whole thing into context, the year that I was due to enter university in Zimbabwe (and this was before all these new univresities that have proliferated everywhere in Zimbabwe) there were something like 12 000 people with the qualifications to attend university but there were only 2500 places or thereabouts. Let us assume that all 2500 places went to Shona people (this is not a realistic since my friends and I attended university that same year and we were Ndebele). Let us also assume that all 12000 people who qualified were also Shona. Since 2500 attended university the remaining 9500 did not attend university. The marjority of the people in that year therefore did not go on to acquire the degrees that you state enable them to enjoy a better standard of living. What then became of them. <br>And when you say that the Shona enjoy a higher standard of living that the Ndebele do you mean that their literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy rates are much higher than ours for example? Is this difference in living standards anything approaching the difference that which existed between blacks and whites during colonial times. This is not to say that if the difference is not the same as during colonial times then it is all right to have that difference. My belief is that if there is a difference between living standards of the Shona and the Ndebele then these are slight and not as wide as people would have us believe. In essence the marjority of the people in Zimbabwe both Shona and Ndebele remain poverty stricken. <br>Toots, my argument is not that there are no imbalances, my argument is that the imbalances that exist are grossly exaggerated.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 10:11 PM
If Comical Jazi you accept that there is discrimination and Shona hegemony and therefore 'imbalances' between these groups in terms of development due to the above mentioned factors, not neglecting the severely self inflicted or self induced factors of corruption,nepotism and the mismanagement of the economy by the Shonas, how do you justify your warped up assertion that Ndebeles suffer equally with the Shonas?<p>If you dare accept, 'discrimination','Shona Hegemony' and 'imbalances' induced by the Shona through ethnic discrimination, how do you arrive safely at a conclusion that these unequals(due to the above factors you mentioned) suffer equally in Zimbabwe?<p>'Discrimination' has led to 'Shona Supramacy' and the two have led to 'imbalances' that you accept they exist!<p>'Imbalance' means there is an inequality and an inequality means that others are advantaged and others severely disadvantaged, and in this case,purely on ethnic grounds!<p>Therefore to assert without shame, that these imbalances are negligible and, as a result these unequals are suffering equally, does give a severe dent to your reasoning capabilities if not you intellectual reasoning!<p>No one is oblivious to the fact that Africa in general lacks development. But this is not to say there are no pockets or islands of development in Africa. These do exist and the factor of tribalism and discrimination of the so called minorities is a significant factor!<p>The fact in Zimbabwe is that those from the so called majorities are in the Harare Airport beautiful departure lounge towards development. This is not a lie!<p>And to say those in the minorities in Zimbabwe are in the ramshackle Joshua Mqabuko Airport Departure lounge towards development is not a lie either. Their situation is largey or greatly becoz they are a minority and their voting power limits them to what they can demand and get from such a tribalist system!<p>Does putting this fact forward eliminate the mere fact that there is general poverty in Africa? Not to my convictions!<p>Does general poverty that blankets Africa in general make us believe that since it is there, all peoples of Africa are suffering equally becoz of this major colonial factor!<p>Again not to my convictions and the convictions of many in our motherland!<p><br>The fact is that minority suffer the greatest because of these two combined factors: general poverty in Africa and the poverty induced by their supposedly African Brothers in the name of Tribal Supremacy!<p><br>Now how long should the minorities suffer in silence when they are exploited by such ruthless Tribal majorites!<p>Bear in mind Mr Comical Jazi that these so called minorities(even though I do not believe they are in a real sense minorities, when we remove the geographical colonial bounderies imposed on us) are also being killed for who they are in the name of Hegemonism that you seem to defend so much yet pretend to hate!<p>Is it not time for minorities to stand up to these fools and demand independence and self governance, where they can rule themselves and blame themselves for their own problems!<p>We surely can not live by the governance laws of the so called majorities, which do not embody the interests of the so called minorities!<p>This is the reason I say your argument lacks substance and reality. It is indeed steeped in foggy political spin very much aimed at creating a propaganda hooha for nothing!<p>Your political appraisal of our situation is indeed mired in a multitude of bizzare and incoherent political thoughts! You need to reflect deeply on your foggy thinking!<p>Bala kuhle amaTheories akho and then apply those that are applicable in real life situation, hatshi to vomit all these theories the same as they are!<p>Kasikho kufunda lokho! Heyi Mshwepes adapt their to your real life situations so as to solve real life situations!<p>Yikho phela sisithi:<p>HLASELA!
Posted By: Jah Dingani Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 10:34 PM
Our own suffer the most wena Siwula Jazi<p>____________________________________________ <p>BULAWAYO ? Forty-three people died in Bulawayo in April alone because of malnutrition, according to an official council report on the health situation in Zimbabwe?s second largest city. <p>In March, 36 people died in Bulawayo because of lack of adequate food. <p>The city?s director of health services, Rita Dlodlo, said in the report ? a copy of which was shown to The Daily News ? that most of the deaths were among children in the five to 14-year age group. <p>Deaths due to hunger were also high among people who were 50 years and above, Dlodlo said in the report. <p>Zimbabwe is in the grip of an acute shortage of food after poor rains and chaotic government land reforms combined to cut down food production by more than 50 percent. <p>An acute foreign currency shortage only helped worsen the food crisis with the government unable to pay for food from foreign producers. <p>Only the timely intervention of international food relief organisations saved about eight million Zimbabweans, about half the country?s population, from starving to death last year. <p>According to the council report most residents in Bulawayo were now surviving on one meal a day in a bid to save the little stocks of the staple maize they harvested last season. <p>Non-governmental organisations and the government were running supplementary feeding schemes in the city but these had proved inadequate to cover all vulnerable groups. <p>Bulawayo city councillors have also set up additional feeding schemes but these have also been overwhelmed by the number of people needing food assistance. <p>Councillor Stars Mathe said the number of beneficiaries had more than doubled because of the worsening economic conditions in the country. <p>Mathe ? who represents Cowdray Park suburb ? called on the government to mend relations with the international community in order to attract more help for starving <p>Zimbabweans. <p>He said: ?Government should loosen their stance on the international community and allow more organisations to assist with food aid. <p>?I am currently feeding more than 1 000 orphans, excluding the terminally ill and other children with both parents and it is stretching our resources.? <p><br>Staff Reporter <p> <br> <br> <br> <br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 12:00 PM
Mr Chairman- It is your inalienable rightto find my arguments lacking in substance and being verbose. I would hasten to say that one man's verbosity is another's eloquence and one man's unsubstantial arguments are another's road map to peace and prosperity. <br>What is spin Mr Chairman? You have used this word before and I do not know what it means Could you be so kind as to explain? <p>Poverty is poverty even though you are at pains to try and catergorize and pigeon-hole it<p>How do I justify my "warped arguments" that the Ndebele suffer equally as the Shona. I guess that you are furhter developing your line of thought that there are two factors affecting employment in Matebeleland and that there is only one factor affecting employment in Matebeleland. Well, Mr Chairman, you thinking is deply flawed in that you appear to assume that the effect of the two factors in Matebeleland are additive (cumulative) that is 1 factor + 1 factor = 2 and therefore there is greater suffering in Matebeleland. The fact of the matter is that the factors are NOT cumulative, the observed suffering is not the sum total of the number of factors that contribute to the suffering. There is a real possibility that one factor contributes more to the suffering than any of the others. This does not negate the existence of the other factors. Thus in the case of employment and development in Matebeleland a rational assessment would be that the poor economy contributes more to the suffering than does ethnic discrimination. Think about though I know that (thinking) might result in a headache.<p>So where are are these pockets or islands of developement is Zimbabwe? And going by your definition if they are pockets or islands it therefore means that a limited number of people that can enjoy that development. I hope that you are not seriously suggesting that the rest of Zimbabwe bar the Midlands and Matebeleland is a "pocket of developemt" Far from being a pocket that would be a whole suitcase of developent!!!!!!<p>You continuously bleat about minorities and marjorities yet you will not bring yourself to address the issue of Matebeleland's ethnic heterogeneity. It is of course convinient for you to pretend otherwise. The fact of matter is that when you create your independent Matebeleland there will be a tribe that will become the marjority and others minorities. And this I will bet my bottom dollar on. To that effect that problems of corruption, nepotism and mismanagement will still be with you. It is laughable that you should seek to potray these (corruption, nepotism and mismanagent) as things that afflict the Shona and no one else. I do not suppose that you will care to explain why these should not affect an independet Matebeleland. Indeed other than on unbridled arrogance (and ignorance!) how will this state of yours survive? Again I am not holding my breath for your response.<p>Far from my thinking being deeply flawed, I think it is your own that is at best incoherent. So every minority the world over should cry off and demand an encalve for itself? Did the African Americans victims of ethnic discrimination demand or get an enclave for themselves in America?. The lot of these people is better today than it was forty to fifty years ago. And how did they achieve that Mr Chairman. Did they achieve that by demanding their own nation by constructive engagement with their oppressors. From the eay you carry one you would think that we the Ndebele are the first peoples to be oppressed. Think about it (again this might cause another severe headache!) <p><br>The year is 2003 and the solutions to what might be age-old problems requires 21st century thinking. That is the case with the issues of Zimbabwe and Matebeleland. Sadly, Mr Chairman, you line of thinking and the solutions that you propose are at best 19th century and at worst stone age.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 06:41 PM
<br>The Comical Jazilian stand point of view seems to be based on this sweeping statement, 'poverty is poverty...' and therefore it can not be relative!<p>This is simple reasoning at its best!<p>One can deduce these following assertions from such a sweeping statement:<p>a) Africa is a poor continent<p>b) Therefore every African is poor<p>c) And they suffer this poverty equally ...there is no relativeness to this issue<p>d) The Tribal segregation factors are insignificant or negligible when it comes to the way they contribute to poverty and suffering of the minorities....despite this tribal segregation leading to wars and genocide in Africa and tearing the African continent apart!<p>e) The segregated and harmed develop at the same rate as the majorities despite them being massacred, their human resources depleted by this and the survivors being severely marginalised<p>The Chairman's Perspective!<p>a) Africa is a poor continent!<p>b) Poverty in Africa is relative<p>c) Therefore it afflicts Africans unequally depending on several factors<p>d) One of the major factor contributing to this unequal suffering is tribal segregation/discrimination which has resulted in many instances, the massacre of ethnic minorities.<p>e) In the Zimbabwean context, the Ndebeles have and continue to suffer unequally as compared to the Shona!<p>f) They suffer discrimination at work places, college entrances for studying, infrastructure development...as toots has explained it in detail( Comical Jazi chose to side step these issues brought up by Toots and the honourable Marcus).<p>It is no surprise he has. This thread is littered with examples of the Shona segregation which he views as a conspiracy peddled by the Ndebeles, yet he agrees that there is discrimination/segregation. Your hypocrisy is alarming and frightening indeed! But he goes on to maintain that this is a conspiracy peddled by the Ndebele and there is no evidence to this!<p>What an example of self contraditory assertions!<p><br>Now the Comical Jazilian perspective is fraught with dishonesty, lies and is pregnant with bizzare and incoherent statements which is evidence enough that it is very flawed and ill-thought out!<p><br>And the Ndebeles are not the first in this world to demand a state of their own. The world is littered with many examples of this!<p>We therefore remain resolute and steadfast in our commitment to achieving this objective. We have a strength of character to do so!<p>We say:<p>HLASELA!
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 08:53 PM
Mina vele ngiyabona ukuthi u-Comical uzama uku-frustrater i-discussion ekhona enkundleni and thereby create doubts and fear amoung us that ukwehlukana labo Pasi laba sonke esikwaziyo ukuthi bayasicindezela angeke kwaphumelela.<p>Who said the Afro-American way of fighting prejudice is suitable for Mthwakazi?Is Mashonaland not heterogeneous,and are they not combining forces when it comes to discriminating against us?Why would an independent Mthwakazi experience tribal prejudice when we can all see it failing in your Zanu Pf?About corruption and nepotism in Mthwakazi and how that state will stand can you tell me how you hope to stamp these out of your chosen MDC and make your state stand?<p>Obviously for people like me the most practically applicable systems could be employed to make that state a success and you dont have to look far find them. Mthwakazi singathula siyekelele okungabantu okusebenzela o-Jonathan lezinye izifebe ze-politic zisikhulumela into esingavumelani lazo sphelile nya.u-Comical yena where does he get all the time to respond and dispute any suggestions to being independent of Shonas?For whose gain is he making this effort.Why is it that each time he brings in a new dimension to his argument worsening his confusion.<p>Chairman ngiyabonga umbono osuncede wenza imbuzi yakhanya ukuthi ngeyini.Mina ngiyayibona manje.u Comical litshona noma kanjani.Uhle uzwe ngamawala lokuzenza yena osaziyo phela isilungu kodwa engatsho lutho.Banjalo phela o-pasi, manje enganya.<p>toots<p>Ungakhathazeki mfanekhaya .Kutsho ukuthi ucabanga ukuthi nxa singaba independent kulendaba lokuthi sile enough energy,imisebenzi lokunye okuqambileyo?Umuntu akusafuzanga azale nxa engela mali?<p>Lokho phela sizazenzela njengoba lawe uyabe ukhona.Uzabuya layo imbono emihle ezakwenza singaphindi sicindezelwe ngokungabantu okuzenza khona okungcono kulathi.<p>Amanzi agcwele kuGwembe,Umhlaba usukela e-falls uze uyecina e-Beit-bridge .So sifunani kubo pasi and futhi thina asizalani njengamagundwane.<p><p><p>Ungakhathali mfanekhaya<br>
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/03/03 09:56 PM
Hlabezulu kaNdaba:<p>ISintu sithi "..asazi lapho kowela khona induku noxakuxaku...."<br>Uma ungabhekisisa nje, uzobona sobala ukuthi inkulumo ephakathi kuka Jazi naye uMgcinisihlalo isifana mpela nenduku noxakuxaku. Angiboni nje ukuthi isiphetho sakhona yintoni, nanko phela sebebizana amagama, bejikijelana ngezinhlamba. Kambe inhlamba yiSintu na? Uma abantu benemibono ehlukile, kuvame ukuthi bavumelane ukuthi, hashi nokho akuz'kubhidliza ubuhlobo, uma bukhona lobobuhlobo. Kusizani ukudlala ngexesha kuthethiswana napha ebulenjini wona umsebenzi omkhulu ukhona le phandle? Kambe kuthuthukisa bani khona lokho? Ukhona oke washo ngaphambili ukuthi baningi abangena lapha enkundleni, befunda okuqukethwe. Khepha, sekukhanya kahle nje ukuthi inkundla le izoduma ngazo inhlamba mahlayana zayo nokungahloniphi okugcwele napha. Yebo, wonke uZulu ulelungelo lokusho okusengqondweni yakhe, kodwa kungakuhle ukuthi abantu basho imibono yabo ngendlela engaphezu kwezinhlamba lezi. Kambe ungasho na manje ukuthi imisindo yasenkundleni yehlukile leyezadlonono eNtwasa? <p>ISilungu lesi yiso engibona sengathi sisiphambanisa amakhanda. Kodwa ke, nabo abelungu uma bekhuluma ngesakibo emzini yabo, banokuhlonipha okukhulu. Pho thina kwehlulani ukuthi sixoxe njalo sihlafune izindaba zeSizwe ngendlela etshengisa uBuntu bethu? (uma busekhona loboBuntu)<p>Jazi nawe Chairman, I believe you are both Mthwakazians, according to what you have said on this forum. Also, I recognise that you both agree that our region has suffered tremendously in the past couple of decades. <br>What you seem to strongly disagree on is the source of the suffering and the appropriate strategy for a way forward. Indeed, you have VERY different views on this issue. I suppose it is natural/healthy for humans to have differing views on some issues in life. But, since you are both interested in the upliftment of our region (correct me if I'm wrong), can you not find a middle ground in this impasse....this deadlock/dead-end? Remember, while we argue and hurl insults at each other on this forum, REAL people continue to suffer on the ground, everyday. Also, what is the point of this "debate" really? I'm not sure if this is my feeling alone, but I just think that the tone of the discourse is a huge turn-off for a lot of simple people like myself, people who might otherwise contribute to the development of the region, in cash or in kind. I think it is very easy to make assumptions about internet characters, but really no one knows WHO reads some of the venom that's routinely spewed on this board. Let's suppose for a moment that you people have young children and families in real life. Is this how you would like your kids to put their points across, this hurling of insults? What is so wrong with agreeing to disagree? (in a civilised manner)<p>Remember, especially you Jazi (because you mentioned your Pan-Afrikanist background), this is exactly what the "wolves" feed on. This disunity. This disarray. This never-ending antagonism,this holier-than-thou attitude. Wouldn't it be nice some day to get down and do some REAL developmental work in the Motherland, TOGETHER? This incessant squabbling is exactly what fuels the Afrikan brain-drain. Until such a day when Afrikans can work together in PEACE and with RESPECT for differing opinions, I don't think there'll be progress in any sphere of development. <p>I'm not evangelical, but I just feel that insults are not a civilised way of putting one's points across, honestly. We are not animals, but humans. I'm not a saint, but I was taught (by the society that raised me) that one should not get into the habit of judging people at face value. I think the Europeans have an expression "..don't judge a book by it's cover...". <p>I'm just reiterating things that uBuntu taught me, and everyone else who bears the mark of "the experience". He who feels it knows it. Jazi, you'll probably be SURPRISED that Pan-Afrikanism touches my heart somehow. I guess it has to do with the fact that I'm technically a diasporic Black Afrikan, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. It HURTS to see Afrikans fighting and antagonising each other, especially. When will the real work of rebuilding a devastated continent begin??????<p>We call ourselves educated, but I have to scratch my head everyday to find evidence for that. What are Afrikan academics, in particular, doing to help rebuild the Motherland? When are we going to get up, off the comfy padded armchairs, to get on with the SERIOUS work that lies ahead??<p>Sorry, I'm digressing.....but I grew up in Rhodesia and Apartheid SA....so maybe that explains my bizarre perspectives, sometimes. <p>Ngiyabonga ngokumamela kwenu.<p> <p><p> <p><p><p><p><br> <p><p>
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/04/03 01:27 AM
And, I think the only thing (tragically) comical about this so-called educated discourse is the level it has descended to.<br>I'm trying to find a word to describe it. I think "petty" is the best I can find, for now. Of course, the implications of this display of disunity/disarray/confusion on a global stage like the WWW will, no doubt, have its own implications/repercussions. Just wait for it, and t'll hit you like a tonne of bricks.<p>You should never expect people to take you seriously when you publicly and routinely display pettiness/vanity/egotism/self-conceitedness.<p>Of course, I'm probably the most imperfect human there is on the planet, I'm far from sainthood. I'm just saying these things because you and I have walked on the same road before (and maybe we will again in the near future). <p><br>A true friend/isihlobo sakho will constructively criticise you very openly without fear of causing you momentary embarrassment. Yikho esikufundiswa yiSintu lokho. <p> <p>
Posted By: Potshoza Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/04/03 08:51 AM
<br> The fact that somebody who claims to be a Ndebele can be adamant in his denial of the facts surrounding the marginalisation of Ndebele people is not petty.<p> The poverty and misery being experienced by the Ndebele nation is not self inflicted. That is not the case with mashona. They only have the potential to mismanage and destroy.<p> We want to be able to manage our own resources and map our own destiny. We refuse to be painted in the same brush with corrupt individuals who have ruined Africa. We are a proud people and believe we can make a change and restore pride in being African.<p>MAYIHLOME IHLASELE!
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/04/03 11:20 AM
Sthutha - It would appear that an apology will not be forth coming from you given the serious though unsubstantiated allegations that you made about me. I am not in the least surprised- the forum is littered with innuendo, unsubstantiated allegations and blatant lies. I guess it would be hard for you to break the habits of a life time and admit when you are wrong.<br>You questions about where I get the time to respond to people whose sole purpose and intent is to besmirch my otherwise good name, are simply puerile and I will not address them.<br>Who says African- American methods for their emancipation will not work in Zimbabwe? Have they been tried and proven to fail?
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/04/03 12:08 PM
Ndukuzibomvu - you rightly complain about the tone and turn that the discussion on this thread has taken. However I would strongly urge you to reflect upon the tone of the discussion that took place between Marcus and myself in this very thread. A lot if ideas and words were exchanged yet there was not a single insult exchanged - ask yourself why.<br>Insults, innuendo and threats have been made against my person both in this thread and the other "Creative destroyers". For a long time I did not respond in kind in the hope that there would be an end to the belligerent and combative tone of some of the contributors. Sadly, this has not happened. The source of this belligerence and combative approach amongst some of the contributors is that the views and ideas that I hold and express are not in accordance with the assumptions, prejudices and downright jingoisms that they hold dear to their hearts. One of the most astonishing assumptions that they may is that because of the views that I hold I am not Ndebele but I am Shona. The general and popular view here is that all Ndebele people should not only share the same ideas but express the same views and values. Anyone not doing so is therefore not Ndebele. This view of the world is not only ignorant but smacks of unbridled arrogance. For these high priests and prelates of reason and repositories of high thought, logic and knowledge of the issues affecting Matebeleland and the solutions required, the greatest insult that they can throw at me is to accuse me of being a Shona person. Mind you there is nothing wrong with being a Shona - they are after all flesh and blood just like the Ndebele. <br>It is equally astonishing, that those that posture and pose as the oppressed and repressed of this earth shoud seek to snuff out those who do not agree with their (warped) world view. In essence turning this forum into mutual admiration society. <br>It is commendable that you should ask for respect and restraint on this forum. However respect is a two way street- I am of the opinion that some contributors here have never accorded me any respect however much respect I have previously accorded to their views and opinions. Well as you probably have seen, I have decided that I shall not respect those who in turn do not respect me. I have therefore decided to fight fire with fire and will continue to do as and when my persona is attacked.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/05/03 04:08 PM
Nduku<p>Your being a dove of peace is intriguing indeed! I am humbled by your sincere effort to put out the flames of fire!<p>Bare in mind that some of us have flames of passion when it comes to discussing such issues that have affected us for so long!<p><br>However in real life I believe you yourself have at some point used such language when your person is attacked!<p>I have exercised rough language only in self defence and I believe I have that right to exercise it when under attack!<p>When someone throws a stone at you, will you exercise ubuntu bakho and say mina ngafundiswa ukuthi ukulwa yinto embi and therefore kumele ngibaleke or leave this person alone?<p>Thina abakaMthwakazi we were taught ukuthi you fight ungabi ligwala and kakumelanga ubelenxeba ngemuva!<p>I believe you will use other means to defend yourself and rightly so!<p>Its called self defence!<p>Above all we have not been 100% pro rough langauge! We have panchuated our comments with small amounts of this venom! On a large scale we have remained discussing the real issues at stake!<p><br>However you will note that those who do not follow the MDC philosophy of solving our problems, who dare put an alternative solution to our problems, have beed described as 'lunatics' and offering 'stone age solutions' to our problems!<p>How dare can these Saint like figures or the know it all brigade try to impose their self-righteous philosophies on us!<p>Our real problems emanating from Shona hegemonism have been unashamedly denied and venomously described as 'conspiracy theories' emanating from and peddled by the Ndebeles peoples!<p>We can not believe that such is coming from an individual who has suffrered at the hands of Shona Supremacy, with Gukurahundi as the first planned episode towards such an idealogy!<p>We have no problems with those who hold a different point about solutions to our problems, but we have a problem with such Messiah's, when they back up their solutions with half-baked truths about the reality of our situation in order to advance what they view as the best solutions for our people!<p>They are being economical with the truth in the hope they can win people over to take up their 'warped' line of thinking!<p>We have had enough of this Tribal Segregation which has brought killings to our people and massive exploitation and marginalisation of our people!<p>Some of us lost our relatives due to this Shona Supremacy idealogy and this is the very reason why this debate can be very heated, especially if someone is defending the psychopaths of our age and time who have brought more harm than good to our peoples in Mat.land. <p>The fact is all of us who have experienced these problems know they exist and to deny and describe them as 'conspiracy theories' is a step gone too far and this sort of language can only be described as a language of the appeasers or indeed the language of our enemies!<p>Verbal volleys will always occur in such heated debates where emotional issues that involve the massacre and continued segregation of our people has and continue to take place!<p>The time to massage the evil doers in the hope they can make you live better, while evidence to the contrary is plenty, has gone!<p>The time to be a dove when others are hawks is gone! Our experience has taught us so!<p>Therefore I have no apology to make for ferociously and venomously attacking those who are defending the victimisers of our peoples in the hope of getting some bread crumbs off the tables of their superiours and victimisers!<p>However, I sincerely and genuinely applaud your great efforts of being a PEACE MAKER!<p>My language has never and will never be compromising with these lot that give us hell in a country so called Zimbabwe!<p><br>Hlasela!
Posted By: ntombankala Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/06/03 04:25 PM
Nduku - you could be right. But we will be doing ourseves harm if we did not send a strong message to Jazi. We should all be focused on removing our enemies either peacefully or violently. Jazi has shown us that he is not with us BUT against us. What more do we want. This should be the beginning. Jazi is at variance with a lot of people here simply because he does not represent the interests of Matland. We are not against people with different opinions. No. We are opposed to those who oppose us on fundamental issues and that is why he does not comprehend the issue yembuzi brought to his eyes. Jazi is sabotaging attempts at creating hope for the little boys and girls in Matland. He wants to extinguish the fire before it burns. <p>Jazi should be extinguished too. This is politics. Those who engage in politics should be prepared to take the harzards and bruises that come with politics. Jazi should know that. I do not think that Jazi is a politician and would advise him before he gets himself bruised to seek a personality test that would advise him what he ought to be doing. <p>Here is a man who wants us to change for change's sake. He says in his typical fashion of holier than thou attitude, "a fool does not change and a wise man changes". Are we to change from fundamental principles simply because that seems "wise"? Would Jazi sleep with his mother because it is wise? Would he do that? Jazi should be warned that we are serious about this and this is just no pass time activity. It may appear as easy as logging in here but that is not the case. This is not golf for us. This is about life and death and we are prepared to inflict pain on those like him who are blocking us. The message should just be driven home.We are all safer infront of our computers until sizesihlangane ekhalweni lwempisi.<p>Thina singamandebele Jazi. Singamandebele sinjalo siyatshaya. Asesabi. Siyazigqaja. It is not your surname or rural home's location that entitles you to claim ubundebele. Ubundebele is not cheap. You are cheap. You do not give yourself ubundebele. You are given. The spirits of the ndebele deny your claims to ubundebele. The spirits say that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. <p>Get out of here before you get a curse upon yourself. What you are I may not worry about but you are not what you say you are. It is the spirit that determines whether you are ndebele or not. It is your values like pride, never surrender, no to cowardice, incorruptible, gentleness, fight to a bitter end, etc that make you a ndebele. You are lacking in all these and yet other guys - believe me Marcus - a white man has. Talking about a white man, Mzilikazi Khumalo made a white man, Yes you heard correctly - a white man a chief for his people. That man was Viljoen and he was a boer. He was ndebele since he had the spirit of the ndebele. He had the values of the ndebele, customs etc. Our modern Viljoen is Marcus - you do not fit in here. If you visit your home next time and want to get ubundebele, you will need ukucela emadlozini. <p>Can anyone tell me what could be the likely consequences of a Jew in a Tel Aviv neighbourhood who harbours suicide bombers and openly justifies suicide bombings of school buses, shop, by saying, "well the Israeli army also bombs with helicopters at times" etc. What sort of impression will other Jews get of this person? What action would Mosad normally have to take on such people? The answers are straight forward. We need to take action too whenever people threaten us.<p>There comes a time in life where you lose patience and this must be the time for Jazi too. If really Jazi agrees as he does that Matlanders were butchered in their thosands, what more does he want? What other cruel event would make him change and act? Sometime back I told him that he strikes me as one of those opposed to a war in Iraq to which he affirmed - justifying his position because he paid minute taxes. There you are. <br> He should visit the sites of horrible killings and stay overnight. He would tell us his experiences the next day. We are talking about human blood that was wasted and has not found places to rest. We are talking about beings that were bayonated. Ungabosimbuluzela lapha uyini wena?<p>BUT let us ask ourselves these questions, "What does Jazi want in a Ndebele site and still peddle shona issues? Why? Why does Jazi call people names like, "convoluted, twisted logic, delusions" Why? Why does Jazi advocate for shona dominance? Why does he exonerate the shona? Infact we do not care about the shona. We do not. We can not even plan for the shona. They take care of themselves. We care about ourselves first and foremost. <p>We have long established that he is not part of us. We have established that in ZAPU he sold out resulting in people getting killed and he ran out of the country - these are facts on the ground. What do you want here when you sold out in the first instance? <p>Nobody owes you an apology here. Ukhulumelani udaka wena? Ngike ngikuzwe futhi threatening those guys you say owe you apologies mgabe. Uzayifunda ivaliwe. Vele lingamncengi. <p>In the chairman's language we say, "Hlasela - attack" and that should be translated into action when the enemy is in sight. And in the spirit of our forefathers, we will do it.
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/06/03 06:44 PM
uJazi liswina, period. Uthi yena the main aim of gukurahundi was to kill all ndebeles, forgetting ukuthi umgabe had people like Enos Nkala eceleni kwakhe, nxa wayefuna ukubulala wonke amandebele wayezaqala ngalabo abaseduze kwakhe. igukurahundi was on a killing mission yes, but their major objective was to subjugate umthwakazi systemaically. awuboni lapha ababebulala khona babengabulali wonke umuntu, although they would round up everybody to watch their heinous crimes. ngombono wami, injongo yabo kwakuyikuthi labo abasilayo, thina, singaqali ukusola umbuso wamashona, or else the same fate is going to befall us. That is what Jazi is preaching here. uthi yena the shona brutality is not as worse as that of smith, so ngesingaye kufanele sibonge usomandla ukuthi abetshabi basinika impilo engcono kule ka Smith. Jazi i take it you don't know about Senegambia which became senegal and Gambia, but surely you should know about Ethopia and Eritrea. ungazosimbuluzela wena tshabindini, hamba uyedlalela khatshana, ulishona wena. thats wahy you are oblivious to mthwakazi's suffering.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/06/03 08:57 PM
Mnumzana Ntombankala thank you very much indeed for the honour that you have bestowed on me.<p>I am deeply moved by your comments.<p>Nothing can be more gratifying than to be honoured by a gentleman whom one honours and who espouses the highest values of ubuNdebele that one honours.<p>I know I am not worthy of honour but I also know that you have given me a goal to which I can aspire.<p>As long as I am alive I will do so.<p>
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/06/03 11:04 PM
Chairman, Ntomba:<p>Gentlemen, I understand and totally empathise with your outrage at some of the views that have been expressed here, particularly concerning the systematic murder and plunder of what was once a proud/towering Nation. Indeed, as most people can attest, we are still a proud Nation, inspite all the deliberate and systematic marginalisation. Indeed, it would seem to me that one of the cornerstones of the programme of abetshabi has been to anathematise/reduce/demonise/sodomise/isolate/castrate/etc Mthwakazi, right from the onset. It's too painful for me to try to explain to anyone, really, the intricacies of this tyranny, the tyranny of abetshabi. And, I totally understand your rage/outrage. Chairman, rest assured that, like you, most of us gathered in this virtual iNkundla know/have lost someone at the hands of the butchers that are otherwise known as abetshabi and their chief chimera engushalibegindini. The point that one can not legitimise statehood by plunder, lawlessness, and genocide eludes them completely. You can not hope for a viable state, if ever there was/is a state to begin with, by mutilating its composite parts. Indeed, it would naturally seem quite scandalous for any Ndebele person to even question the continued bondage and strangulation of our people. It would seem outrageous for anyone to be even philosophising and theorising about these issues of life and death, when at this very hour, millions ponder where their next meal is going to come from. How high must a goat raise its tail before some people can determine its gender? I suppose it would make sense to study the sample space statistics of all such goats, before coming to a conclusion. How BOLD must the writing be before some people can make out the words/logic? Unfortunately, to that I have no answers. At the same time, I do respect that basic and fundamental right of every living human being: the right to speak their mind. I can not, and will not, speculate on who Jazi is. Only him, the real man, knows who he truly is, I hope. After all, this is a virtual platform. Anything is possible, not excluding political masquerading/proselytising. <p>I tend not to speak too much on issues pertaining to zimbabwe, because, to be honest, I've never (and never will) defined myself as zimbabwean, because I'm NOT. I am a child of greater Mthwakazi. I know who my people are, period. Neither do I subscribe to the political ideology/theory of zimbabweanism. Frankly speaking, the z-word is a dirty word to me. You can call me crazy,lunatic, delusional, etc, for saying that, but, that will likely not change my outlook. It boils down to a question of principles, really. Why would one bend one's principles for the sake of it?? About fools, the wise, and the mind: But, what exactly do people mean by "mind"? You have to be specific. "Mind" is a fuzzy term. It can mean everything, and mean nothing at the same time. How does one "change" one's mind? <br>Isn't "changing" one's "mind" a biochemical process? (which is therefore determined by specific chemical signals?) Also, is there really a generic definition of a fool or a wise person? Aren't these highly subjective notions? Also, concluding that someone is a lunatic needs more work (by medical professionals) than some people here seem to think. Diagnosis over the internet is unheard of! If anyone thinks they have discovered a way of determining schizoprenia virtually over the WWW , there are countless medical/biomedical/psychological/metaphysical/etc research journals: why not publish your results there? It sounds like you might get a role in the next episode of the X-Files.<br> <br>I tend to refrain from commenting on issues (including political parties dealing/connected with the z-ideology.<p>Since people here seem to routinely talk about Jews, let me end by posing the following question. How do you think Palestinians would react if someone told them: "...oh, well, you guys should just vote, en-masse, for the Labour (as opposed to Likud) Party...."<p>(just in case someone starts bleating about anti-semitism, my question doesn't fall in that category, thank you).<br> <br>Ngiqedile.<p><p><p> <br> <p> <p><br>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 07:37 AM
It is appreciated that you call yourself a child Nduku - I am afraid I am not in the business of discussing adult issues with children.<p>But to give you some educational background Jaz may for the sake of interest wish to give an outline of the earlier dialogue which involved some of us at the Daily News website where The Chairman and I have suggested, and he has not denied, that he put forward certain views under the name Gwembeni.<p><p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 07:48 AM
It is interesting to note that, that doyen of rhyme and reason, Ntombankala has blessed this thread with his/her presence. If only the contributions were as enlightening as they were long ... but still one lives in hope!! Ntonmbankala issues threats ("Ngike ngikuzwe futhi threatening those guys you say owe you apologies mgabe. Uzayifunda ivaliwe.") - I am shaking and trembling in my boots as we speak. I am so afraid that I am contemplating not leaving my house for the next five years!!!! <br>About ubuNdebele - that is your opinion. I have never set much store in your opinions and rest assured, that is not about to change. NgiliNdebele ufuna ungafuni and there is nothing you can do about it. You can issue all the threats you like - even though you could not conceivably carry any of them out, tha will not change what I am. I remain iNdebele!!<p>Mr Chairman- yet another flatulent explosion of incoherence - you really have outdone yourself in you last two posts. With little indeed no respect to you, I do not think that my position/stances can be summarised by one who can be described intellectually, at best as bankrupt and at worst inert. If poverty is relative and be relativized it follows that suffering can also be relative. That being the case, following your convoluted logic, then the alleged suffering of the Ndebele is no more than a storm in a teacup compared to that of colonial times. Already frothing at the mouth, no doubt there would be more frothing accompanied by yet more incomprehensible babbling were anyone to suggest that.<p>Ndukuzibomvu - Are Palestinians allowed to vote in Israeli elections?. Iny any case I do not see how the allegory of Palestine applies to Matebeleland.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 07:52 AM
Marcus- With all due respect, I never put forward any views on the DN forum as Gwembeni. I do not know what kind of animal Gwembeni is/was. As I said I did contribute to the DN forum but I choose not to disclose what nom de guerre I used there.
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 09:18 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Jaz. <p>There seemed to be a number of resemblances between your style of arguing and Gwembeni's, hence my error.<p>May I just observe that where you state:<p>"As I said I did contribute to the DN forum but I choose not to disclose what nom de guerre I used there."<p>in fact when I first mentioned the name Gwembeni you did not say that at all.<p>In truth you vouchsafed that:<p> "for the life of me I cannot recall the nom de guerre that I used".<p>Therefore three questions arise:<p>1. When you said you could not remember, were you telling the truth?<p>2. Why did you not simply deny you were Gwembeni when the clear implication was first offered that you were he?; <p>and<p>3. If you were telling the truth about loss of memory/ amnesia when was it cured?<p>:-)<p>In any event since you say you were not Gwembeni I have to point out that Gwembeni, though he claimed to be an Ndebele, translated the name Mzilikazi, ignorantly and wrongly, as "Path of Blood"; that he stated the Gukurahundi period was to be understood and somehow justified in the context of wildly untrue claims about the history of supposed atrocities committed in the 19 th Century; that he averred indeed the "nickname" of Gukurahundi was "Path of Blood" to Shona speaking people; and that the CCJP report Breaking the Silence had to be interpreted in the context of "reports" that had not been written about supposed Nguni atrocities including the assimilation of totems such as Shoko to Ncube etc etc.<p>If you were not Gwembeni then I must offer you an apology.<p>I imagine that if Gwembeni were to present himself on this forum today he would be obliged to attempt to justify the record of genocide justification for which he was responsible.<p>I can only imagine that in truth he would be too ashamed to admit his identity.<br>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 11:30 AM
Marcus - <br>"When you said you could not remember, were you telling the truth?"<p>Yes I was telling the truth.<p>"Why did you not simply deny you were Gwembeni when the clear implication was first offered that you were he"<p>At the time I did not think that it was important to deny that I was not Gwembeni since such a denial would neither add nor detract from the arguments that I was making.<p>"3. If you were telling the truth about loss of memory/ amnesia when was it cured"<p>There was never any amnesia. I stated at the time that "for the life of me I cannot recall the nom de guerre that I used" i have used various names in various forums on the internet over a number of years. I have full recollection of the names that I have used but not the forums I have used them in. <p>For the record, let me state that in the DN forum I started a thread soon after the General elections of June 2000, in which I argued (perhaps somewhat foolishly) that based on the results of the election, i.e the clean sweep of rural Matebeleland by the opposition party, then Matebeleland should secede from the rest of the country since the country were so enamoured by Robert Gabriel Mugabe. I say "foolishly argued" becasue my arguments at the time did not take into consideration the dynamics of factors that contribute to voting patterns in Zimbabwe in particular and Africa in general. (but that is another story for another place another time)<p><p><br>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 11:48 AM
Jaz thank you for answering questions that were phrased provocatively to see whether provocation would result.<p>If it had I would have deduced that a guilty mind was at work.<p>:-)<p>From your level-headed response it is now clear to me that I have to accept that I was incorrect: whoever you are, you are not and were not Mr Gwembs the fifth columnist of the Daily News Forum.<p>He has a heavy responsibility to bear for his attempts to relativize genocide and I am sure that bad luck will dogs all his footsteps.
Posted By: Ndukuzibomvu Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 02:19 PM
Marcus: That's probably a good thing for you, especially since pedophilia is illegal in most civilised communities of the world.<br>In any case, I didn't think you would be a dirty old fart. So, thumbs up to you!<p>Jazi: would "Palestinian-Israeli" be a better description for you? I don't like hyphenated tags, that is the problem.<p><p>
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 05:33 PM
Nice try Pinksticks but if you are going to engage in a battle of wits - get some wits....<p>But thumbs up anyway.<p>:-)<p>If it helps can I point out Palestinians who reside and have citizenship in Israel can vote for Knesset (Israeli Parliament) representation whereas Arabs in Palestine cannot?
Posted By: sthutha Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/07/03 07:01 PM
Kusobala kimi ukuthi wena Jazi ufuna ukuba le-career ku-internet yoku disrupter and confuse abantu bako Mthwakazi behlahla indlela yabo eyaphambili.Wonke obala lapha uyakubona lokho.<p>Into nje eyangisayo yikuthi njengoba umnu-Marcus ekufokisa lapha uyala ozaziyo ukuthi uyikho,uyala ukuthi uli-shona elakhulela koByo wena uyilo,uyala lokuthi uqhatshiwe yibo betshabi bakho labo ukuthi uze lapha uzosphambanisa.Vela egcekeni ukuthi uphikisa umeleni then imbono yabantu izaqondana lalokho than ukuthi kube lokuthukana esesikubonile.<p>Majita linanzelele ukuthi kuvele kuyinjongo yakhe loJazindini ukuthi sehluleke ukukhuluma lokho esikufunayo ngokuzonda lokubhoda ndawonye ngento ezingela ncedo silandela yena.LINGAXHOTSHWA LIBHEKILE.<p>Senzani lapho esikhona ukuthi siqoqaneni sixoxe ngo-Mthwakazi esimfunayo?Senzani ekuvimbela inswelaboya labathengisi ukuthi bangasphambuli endleni le ehlahlwayo?Senzani ngobuyithi bethu?<p>Ama-Theories ka-Jazi sesiwazwile,sesiwabonile,sesiwazi njalo phose mina sengisazi ukuthi yisdlonono bani?<br>Singaphika ngaye inkulumo enhle ekhona lapha iyachitheka nje kungasela kuzwana.Yikho okufunwa ngama-tshabi lokho.<p>Ama-tshabi wona acabanga ukuthi u-mgabe engaphuma kumele silandele lowo bona abzamkhetha.Le imicabango asiyiphikiseni ngokuba lesikuqoqayo esikwenzayo silungisa esethu isizwe.
Posted By: nobhutshuzwayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 01:50 AM
Poverty is a condition that can only be remedied by the afflicted.<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 07:32 AM
Ndukuzibomvu - Thank you for the clarification. In response to your "ask", if I were Palestinian I would, at first, not be at all happy if someone came along and said just vote for the Labour Party (and not Likud). That person would have to make a case why voting for that party would change my condition and my affliction. It would have to be a strong case put forward to the effect that the Labour party would be a vehicle for progress and change and a better tommorrow for my kith and kin.
Posted By: lumezi sandi Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 09:59 AM
majida .<p>uma ungabhekisisa kuwo wonke mastruggles ake abakhona awusweli iziwula ezinjengo jazi ezilenjongo yokuphazamisa lokubhidlisa .the very fact that people end up bephambuka kuma aims and ideals abo is frusrating to say the least.this is an open challenge kuwe jazi you seem to have extremely diverging views from generally everybody .instead of umthwakazi putting amakanda ndawonye and establishing a platform that can turn out to be meltingpot for greaster things to come- you have people going round and round in circles with your wild theories and denials ngento ezisegcekeni nje debating trival issues.am i saying should mthwakazi have the same opinion- God forbid no!, we would then be replacing one dictactor with another one. <br>kini lonke bafowethu labodadewethu uthunyiwe ngumgabe umuntu lo.<p>p.s . it is my first and last reply to the so called jazi
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 12:22 PM
S'thutha, Marcus, Ntomba,Saduva, Sindi, Jah Dingani<p>I thank your courage and strength of character for standing up to evil in this forum in the name of Jazi!<p>You have the spirit of ubuntu and let this be everlasting!<p>The time to appease these fools in the name of respect is gone!<p><p>Comical Jazi has clearly shown ukuthi he is a Shona arse hole licker(that is if we are to go by the claims he is making of being a Ndebele), but we know from other forums as Marcus has said that this guy is a Shona, period!<p>His main agenda as the clever S'thutha has clearly pointed out is to frustrate any agenda we put forward to confront these psychopaths and emancipate our beloved peoples from their jaws!<p>He is lucky that he is behind a screen somewhere, but if the opportunity had arisen, I am sure we would not hesitate to eliminate such individuals for the good cause of Mthwakazi!<p>For us to fight terror, we will have to use the same methods the terrorists are using on our people!<p>That is the only language they will understand!<p>We should continue to attack such fools and never to teach ourselfs to retreat!<p><br>For the purpose of being progressive, the time for Jazi to be spouting his evil propaganda and insulting the dignity of our people has gone!<p>It is time to crush him out!<p>He has overstayed his welcome!<p><br>Hlasela!
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 04:26 PM
Mr Chairman -But Marcus has not accused me of being Shona!!!!!!! Read the posts from yesterday again - this time be a bit more composed and calm then perhaps you might understand the the english. <p>I am lucky that I am behind a screen? Really? It is so easy to make threats, just like that other moron Ntombankala, that you know fully well you could never ever carry out. And just like you equally moronic friend's threats I am not moved - not an inch!!!<p>The welcome that you bleat I have overstayed is not for you to withdraw since presumably you are not the owner of the forum. Until such a time that the owners of the forum ask me to leave I am here to stay - to come and go as I please!<p>It is interesting to note that you have now dropped any pretext to reasoned debate resorting instead to insults and meaningless threats. Could it be that you have now adopted such an approach because it has dawned on you that you do not have two thoughts to rub together and that your head serves no purpose other than to keep your ears apart? Your previous contributions in this thread generate much heat but very little light. Your present approach is much befitting one so obviously intellectually inert as yourself. <br>Indeed you should "hlasela" but hlasela your ignorance first, then your arrogance.
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 05:16 PM
Wena Comical uliShona and you seem to have enjoyed the status and now it is under threat as you see it!<p>But be informed that our agenda can not and will not be put of course by arse holes like you!<p>You are a Shona Supremacist bent on blocking opur means towards the liberation of our people or planting seeds of disunity among us. <p>That you have failed to do so! You are just a Hegemonist tortouise that needs to withdraw its head to its shells for ever!<p>You will not achieve what you have set out to do!<p>You have no support here and neither are your warped ideas!<p>Will you win? The anwers is a big No!<p>You have already lost the battle of ideas and no one subscribes to your twisted thinking!<p>You are morally bankrupt and yopu have no shlter here! Uyafunisela jaha!<p>No one here has any regard for you and your arse hole ideas! Please be advised that you can share them with your masters only and not with us here!<p>You are an outcast and you will remain as such Mr Gwemebeni!<p><br>And we will continue our path of attacking the SHONA INFIDELS of your like<p>We say:<p>HLASELA!<p>
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 05:36 PM
Mr Chairman- Who said I was here to "win" Who also said that I was here for "support" Is this what this forum is for - winning and supporting? Yet more misconceptions and baseless allegations from an otherwise unengaging but clearly disturbed mind !!! It is also clear that your head is pregnant with confusion and still born ideas!<br>I am not here to "win" - what is there to "win"? I am not here for "support" I am an "outcast" - from whence have I been outcast from?? I am here to express my views within the constraints laid by the owners of the forum and as I said will continue to do so until told otherwise by abanikazi beforum. A virtual nonentity like you will neve phase me!!!It also clear that uyimini lesixhuku okwadlaliswayo!!
Posted By: Sheik Mthembo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 06:30 PM
There is nothing that pleases me as seeing an outcast being treated as such!<p>And this is none other than the Shona arse hole licker Mr Comical jazi!!<p>You are at the cross roads where no one subsbcribes to your warped ideas!<p>You have lost the plot, big time!<p>No wonder we have seen the mashrooming of your compatriots today, to try and boost your low level motivations!<p>That won't save your skin mate! You will always face the wrath of the enraged Ndebeles, period!<p>Hlasela!
Posted By: Mtshede Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/08/03 08:41 PM
Mnu Sthutha ngijabula kakhulu ukufunda ukuthi sesizwane futhi sesivumelane.<p>The Chairman thank you for placing me in good company.<p>I would like to make a final comment to Jaz.<p>Jaz I would like to think that you and I have debated objectively and with an absence of emotion.<p>I hope you will therefore accept the following in the same spirit.<p>I am in no position to act as a mediator here but would like to say that it seems to me that effectively The Chairman has won the argument that has raged insofar as substantive issues are concerned.<p>Jaz has accepted:<p>1. Mthwakazians are victims of ethnic discrimination both in Mat'land and in the wider region;<p>2. This is the result of a hegemonic system of ethnic oppression;<p>3. It is therefore not enough to speak of "getting rid of Mugabe" as if this and nothing else will deal with our problems.<p>Of course Jaz has not accepted the consensus view of the remaining contributors regarding the means to deal with the analysis.<p>His reluctance to come to terms with realities on the ground seemed unusual, in my opinion.<p>It is in all our interest to advertise as uncompromisingly as possible what is happening in Mthwakazi - and what has happened.<p>Jaz I think if it were true to say you were Gwembeni then as far as I and others can recall it is extremely likely that Gwembeni was not Ndebele though he had some knowledge of Mthwakazi.<p>I have set out my reasons for thinking you were Gwembeni and you have denied it.<p>I admit that I was surprised by your denial because of some of the resemblances between your style of argument and Gwembeni's.<p>But in the absence of any other evidence and in the interests of fairmindedness I have to accept that you have told the truth.<p>If you are not Gwembeni it would be a terrible offence on my part to smear an innocent man.<p>If you are Gwembeni then I think you would agree that the dishonest denial brings a level of personal dishonour on yourself that no man could bear to accept without fighting to clear his name or defending his record.<p>Gwembeni was nothing better and nothing worse than a man who tried to derail the process of seeking justice for the innocent thousands and thousands who fell victim to Mugabe's ethnic hatred.<p>This will be my final comment on this issue.<p>I leave it to others to draw their conclusions.<p>
Posted By: gwesela Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/09/03 07:45 AM
Bafowethu lundoda ujazi ndini uyangicaphula mina impela.Uza lapha ezesigolozela efuna ukusigubha imdidi ubona angani siyizitabane thina njengaye shona lothuvi.<br>Jazi mfowethu kumele uzinuke amakhwapha.<br>Lapha kukomthwakazi njalo gone are those days lapho elalisincindezela khona labosekuru bakho.Manje khathesi uthole imbila zithuthile wena popayi womuntu.<br>Tshalimana labanye amadodadoda uqobo, singavumi majida ukugolozelwa nguMickey mouse ayisithi bopopayi thina jazi singabantu bantu, nxa ufuna opopayi bakini hamba kozvakapressa hayikhona lapha.<br>kumbe uhle uziyele edisney land, lapho okulabanye opopayi khona.
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/09/03 08:26 AM
Marcus - I too would like to think (and indeed do) that we have debated objectively and without emotion. I accept your summation in the same spirit but with some reservations. <br>1 First and foremost my primary objective here was not "win" a debate or score points.It not to convince people to change their minds or their views.<br>2 Yes I made those concessions about ethnic discrimination and the resulting imbalances. And that was because my position was never based on dogma but on recognition and acceptance of the complexity of the issues at hand. Who is the most realistic - one who admits that there is a problem but also highlights other factors that contribute to the problem or one who states that there is only one cause of the problem and shuts his eye and mind to other causes? Who, Marcus, is less dogmatic - one who says issues and problems are divided in black or white or one who recognises that between the black and the white there are shades of grey?. The position adopted by most contributors in this thread would appear to me to be the one where the world and issues affecting Matebeleland are sharply divided into black and white. My primary objective, therefore was (and remains) to highlight the existence of these grey areas. <br>We have had people making sweeping statements - the Ndebele managers (of parastatals) are better managers than Shona mangers (of parastatals) - therefore all Ndebele are better managers(!!!) yet at the same time people complain about the sweeping statements made by the Shona - the Ndebele are not educated or do not like school. It has also been said that Mugabe is Shona and he has instituted a hegemonic system and therefore ALL Shona people support this system. <p>3 There is no reluctance on my part to come to terms with the "realities on the ground" If anything those who hold the opposing view are the ones at pains not to admit the "realities on the ground" I have pressed for evidence showing how the Shona have benefited from their oppression of Matebeleland. This has been consipicous by its absence.<p>4 The truth of the matter as I see it is that we (those that contribute to the thread) have looked at the same problem and come up with different perspectives and solutions on it. That my perspectives and solutions are different from the marjority of the views expressed here does not bother me one jot. My views are no better nor inferior to the divergent views expressed here and again there are not cast in stone. I end by repeating that I was and am not in the business of changing people's views but in the business of exchanging views. The poisoned and charged atmosphere that now exists in this thread arises because people have made that assumption.<p>As for the Gwembeni issue- I cannot explain why there are similiarities between Gwembeni's style of arguing and my own - perhaps we went to the same school !!! (I trust that you will not take that last flippant remark to heart!). Since I have not read Gwembeni's articles I am not in a position to comment on the similiarity that you speak of. You do not need me to tell you that the internet is a big and very deep pond where all sorts of life is to be found. Indeed there were occassions when your style of debating reminded me of someone called Spitfire from the old Zimweb forum. I am not Gwembeni and have never been Gwembeni.
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/09/03 11:14 AM
Jazi<p>Let me hear you respond to this Mai Chenge with a ferocity of an invaded Ndebele. We need your literary armour against this invader.Ake usimele.i elect you
Posted By: Jazelindizayo Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/09/03 04:47 PM
Toots- Ukuma bengingalimela ngilawo amazwi ebengikade ngizawasebenzisa njengo swazi lokubetha lesi sibhongobhiya. Pho njengoba induna, labo mgcinisihlalo labo maqhuzu balenkundla sebeqaphise imisila bathi lomuntu yimina engimxusileyo kulinkundla ngizalimela ngaliphi. <br>Lokhu kuklamasi kwalumuntu kakuqali kulinkundla - ngike ngabona ezinye izibozi azilobileyo ku zimupdate.com ndebele forum.
Posted By: toots Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 07/10/03 05:25 PM
Jazi<p>Your struggle for the Ndebele shld be a personal conviction.Therefore ukuthi umgcinisihlalo lobanibani bathini shld not affect your reaction nxa uhlaselwe litshabi.<br>Ukuhlasela kwakho leliTshabi elithe lazama ukuzi promoter to a Ndebele forum kusebenza in two ways.Lawe uyabe uveze ubuNdebele bakho(obuhlaselweyo bungenzanga lutho).Okwesibili ofcos ngibona sengathi isifebe lesi wena kuleyi forum nguwe isotsha elingakwanisa ukusilwisela sona.<p>Zama mfowethu.Umlande lakhonangale kuZimupdate leyo uhlasele.<br>
Posted By: MTHWENTWEHLABA1 Re: 'Get rid of Mugabe' - 06/24/08 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Jazelindizayo
Mr Chairman- with the greaest of respect my position is not self contradictory. I admit that there is discrimination in Matebeleland and that Matebeleland is underdeveloped but critically I go on to state that the underdevelopment is not peculiar to Matebeleland nor is unemployment. Sir, we are told that the unemployment rate in Zimbabwe is 70% does this rate only apply to Matebeleland?If this unemployment rate applies to the whole of Zimbabwe including Matebeleland then how can you stand up and shout that "Unemployment is high in Matebeleland and that is because of a Shona Hegemony" ? How can you stand and shout with a serious face that there is Shona hegemony when Shonas are equally unemployed? The logic escapes me!!!<p>Tell me Mr Chairman how is the life of an ordinary Shona person in Zimbabwe today better than that of a Ndebele person?<br>Tell me also Mr Chairman, how are you going to ensure that there is no ethnic discrimination in you independent Matebeleland?<p>Agreeing that there is discrimination does not tantamount to agreeing that there is hegemony nor to acquiescing to your Shona consipicary theory. <br>You are right to state that I absolve the Shona of blame for the many problems facing our region and our country. Unlike you I choose to aportion the blame to those whom it belongs to - Mugabe and his henchman and not the the whole of the Shona nation. Mugabe and his henchman have caused problems because they are leaders and not because they are Shona. We should be able to distinguish between the actions of the leaders and those of the people that they claim to represent. <br>The documents that you describe -the 1979 and the later document that came out last year, I have read both of them. The documents as you say are racist. Clearly they are the views of right-wing extremists. How widely distributed are these documents in Mashonaland? Are the sentiments expressed in them those of the Shona people in general or those of the people (leaders) that wrote them? Perhaps you know without a shadow of doubt that every Shona person in Zimbabwe has not only read but approves of those documents. Just because the documents were written by right-wing Shona extremists does not, in my view, mean that every Shona person subscribes to those views. Equally it is absurd in the extreme for you to expect that every Ndebele person to the last man, woman and child should subscribe to your fabrications, myths and propaganda. <br>Just as you want to go on deluding yourself that there is Shona conspiracy theory, please carry on with the delusion that I am Shona


So when we say Zimbabweans are experiencing serious economic hardships do we mean each and every Zimbabwean person? Masithi kunje kunje la enkundleni do we refer to each and every individual registrant? What does it mean to say zonelwa mvuyinye?
When nepotism is being practised does it necessarily improve the standard of living of those that are being favoured or they are just made better off?

70% unemployment rate in Zim pertains to the whole nation but it does not mean that this rate is evenly distributed throughout Zim. Such statistics is totally meaningless to issue in question. What could have helped is to have individual rates for the different regions to be compared.

Through our experiences and not research, we come to conclusions that we have herein asserted concerning discrimination against Mthwakazi. We have seen it, we have lived it. One such experience is that this friend of mine at the admissions in ZINTEC GWANDA, were given names of students they were to allocate express admission before they even started their own selection process at the college. All the names were form Shonaland. Anyone wants to prove us otherwise, we are available to be participants to such a survey. We were not intending to carry out a survey ourselves.

The grand plan was never meant for public consumption. It is a political strategy to a particular end and as such its meant to be implemented at particular levels, hence the centralization of key departments and public utilities to hre. An ordinary Shona person is as good as an ordinary Mthwakazian, they do not know about this. Some are actually implementing the strategy unawares. Just like economic policies are applied at the top and not by every Tom Dick and Harry. The majority of the shonas just enjoy the preference they have over us and they attribute it simply to the fact that Mandevere lost the elections and the shonas are ruling. Thats why sometimes when we talk like we do here even some Mthwakazian feel we are fueling hatred and tribalism. Now this is the time for every enlightened Mthwakazian to highlight this sidelining to our people. We will obviously put all emotion to it, pliz do not suggest that we should not.

Who does not know that if you attend an interview for a job with a shona person who will get the job? This is not an absolute but our experience and who can argue with an experience?

Wherever poss industry and commerce have been manipulated to Harare. Bulawayo no longer enjoys the services of international flights. Of the few depatments that are run from Byo you will note, they almost always have to seek approval from Hre, of decisions they have to make. You want a visa go to hre, birth certificate(new format), go to hre and many more things. Has anyone seen how Byo airport compares to Hre. I do not suggest that they should be the same but I mean Byo is the second largest city in zim, thats the context I m stating this point. Have you ever heard the shona people complaining about hardship except in the last few years. I mean the thing has always been bababamgabe! Have you people listened to the zbc radio 2, or watched ztv. The only tv station! I gather eHre they have two stations though. Have you been in air zim and heard how go the announcements. It is a shame bafowethu ma siyabe sidonselana sisilwa over such trivia enkundleni la when we should be embracing and pulling together. It is painful.






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