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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18
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Mafikizolo
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Mafikizolo
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You asked ..."Endulge me for a moment. What would happen if?....Bulawayans, and Matabelelandas become so united, they have street demonstrations, sit-ins, shut down the whole matland economy in lobbying for their case of provincial autonomy to be heard?"<p>They would get killed and this time in hundreds of thousands; their leaders would disappear etc ... my memory is not short, unlike yours.

Joined: Jun 2002
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Mafikizolo
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Mafikizolo
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There was once a project which was established; funding was sourced from outside and the only hurdle was to get the relevant Ministry to approve the project; did you hear me, just approve the project. Do you know what the powers be said, "Give us the money and WE will decide WHERE such a project should be done". Food for thought.

Joined: Jan 2002
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Ngqwele
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Ngqwele
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matabele<p>your analysis beggars belief!<p>shona hegemony and supremacism is there and is frustrating our initiatives!<p>you sound like you have been the beneficiary of the system!<p>how many ndebeles have been denied scholarships to develop themselves educationally, so they can develop their region?<p>most of us who are overseas are there out of our own sweating, not through this tribal supremacist governent!<p>what about enrollment in colleges of higher learning?<p>we did so much for the MZWP and i still remember Malunga at its helm!<p>we lobbyed the government and the government did not do much and they have not done much despite a lot of organisations showing eagerness to fund it. the border countries never refused but needed to be consulted at governental level. i am yet to hear of any objection from our neighbhours!<p>what about the trans-limpopo initiative!<p><br>what about the government owing our council millions of dollars and refusing to pay it for a number of years! where will the council get the money to develop our areas when the harare supremacists are blocking funds and taking them to develop their areas!<p>what about the funds for the started Nkayi road that has been left in a mess due to funds 'drying up'!<p>yes we have to stand up for ourselves but to ignore the subjugation machinery of zpf supremacist thugs that is frustrating our developement amounts to being a shona supremacist apologist!

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Ngqwele
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Qiniso<p>you can not 100 per cent blame the shona supremacist!<p>i have seen organisations formed overseas becoming defunct and not going anywhere!<p>the shonas will not be there, so why blame them for everything!<p>it is not on!

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Ngqwele
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Ngqwele
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"I know Zimbabwe is a colonial creation, however, I dont think we have or will experience the same tribal problems like so many other african countries. I firmly do believe that we have passed that hurdle, and this was exemplified by last years elections whereby both contesting parties had both tribes participating in them".<p>The cabinet has John Nkomo in it so that's OK as far as you're concerned? Don't be naive,itshomi yakho yes'tshabini isikubulele ingqondo. Buy'ekhaya!<p>

Joined: Jul 2002
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Mafikizolo
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Mafikizolo
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Matabele,uyazizwa nje ukuthi uthini. I suppose you're eagerly waiting for Mnangagwa to become your president. <br>Sizathuma wena uyekhuluma laye ukuthi asiphe umumbu le nhlalakahle. Ungabo dlala wena!

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Sakhamuzi
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You see Gents, you have just confirmed all I have said. Qiniso, your fear is the "slaughter of Ndebeles in the hundreds of thousands", so it is better to continue just talking on a website from a distance.<p>About projects, I was referring mainly to Ndebeles starting their own businesses using their own resources. The fact that some projects were stopped by some relevant minister should not make you give up. Strive fought the Gov. for 5 years before getting his project going.<p>To those who say that I have bennefitted from the system, well I ask this - If i am a Ndebele, and I was able to successfully integrate myself into the system, and yes bennefit, what is so wrong with that especially when it was all through hard work. All I was saying is that my living in Gweru, Harare, and Bulawayo exposed me to so many different people, and not all of those shonas were after my head, like you all try to make it out to be.<p>Question: In the earky 1990s when the Mat-Zambezi project was on the cards, could we not in matabeleland have contributed on average 50 or $100.00 theby raising $300 million which could have easily got the project going? The simple answer is that like all Zimbabweans we had fallen into the kind of thinking that said " dont worry, the gov. is going to provide you with everything you need", so we just sat back and waited for Gov. bureaucracy to solve "our" perrenial problems.<p>Gentlemen I do agree that there is a shona hegemony, so how do you begin to defeat that paradigm. most of you advocate for total separation, but how much audience and support would you get for it. right now in this chatroom, there have been only 5 or so contributors, most people are still on Allzimbabwe.com, or zimsite.com., and why is that?<p>We do not advocate for, or more importantly try to finance our own development, and yet we expect those who wish to keep their hegemony over us to do it for us.<p>my point was that most of you are right this minute advocating for a pipedream, simply becoz it does not commit you to any action of a considerable risk. Instead, beginning with autonomy for not only Matland, but convincing other provinces like masvingo, and Midlands that federalism would also benefit them would create a bigger audience for your cause. <p>And finally, something to get you all riled up. There is something in the bible that is called" reaping what you sowed", or Kharma. In the early 18 - 1900s, how many shonas did our forefathers murder in the name of tribal hegemony, and when the same thing happens to us, as much as we deserve justice for the 1980s Matland massacres, should we not also apologize to those our forefathers once murdered?

Joined: Nov 2001
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Sikhulu
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Uyahlanya lo. What killings of Shona. You are talking of Raids. A raid is just that a Raid. Shonas have an agricultural economy whilst ours was cattle. For Agriculture to thrive you need rain. There was no rain here, hence the Khami ruins, nobody could leave on agriculture and sustain themselves in Matabeleland. Matabeleland was pointed out by the Tswana to Mzilikazi as an almosy empty area were nobody could really inhabit to survive. Hence Sebetwana went on to Zambia finding this near semi desert inhospitable. It still i8s today hence people clamour for the Zambezi water project. Sebetwana being the leader of the Kololo. <p>NO, the Ndebeles did nothing to try to destroty the Shona, they even took some of their believes. Not only that but Shona culture was left alone, that is why Bulawayo was built leave well alone was Mzilikazis policy, just do not marry them. Your distorted history you are getting from white books to ferment hatred is amazing how much you believe it. Matabele, what a strange man who claims what he is not. Matabele would know his history.

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Sakhamuzi
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Bheki, thanks for the correction, and I humbly apologize for my error. I am not as well versed as you are. When I said what i said I was specifically seeking to be informed by for someone who had a good historical background, and you seem well versed with it, thankyou.<p>Now BK, my points are simply this. <br>1.We have no known civic organizations or efforts in that direction of advocating for Ndebele autonomy. the last organization i think I heard of was "Imbovane yamalhabezulu", and I have not heard anything from them since. So how do you send your message if you dont have messagers?<p>2. In order for us to even contemplate that autonomy, we have to prove (mainly to ourselves) through civic groups, and other democratic institutions that we are able to take care of our own affairs. That is what I have been trying to point out. We still do like all the other provinces, cry out with a begging bowl, and yet we claim to be different from them in that we deserve autonomy-to me this does not make sense.<p>If one looks at the Croatias, East timorese, Bosnians, even the scottish who recently elected to have their own parliament separate from the UK. Then am I not right in saying we are basing all our aspirations on purely tribalistic hegemony, rather than strong civil and business society. <p>We have the Matland Chamber of Industry and Commerce, lets begin to find our own ways of strengthening it, rather than expecting harare to do so since we see them increasingly as an impediment to our development. Lets create and develop well organized civic groups that specifically call for this autonomy.<p>However, you are still going to disagree with me and just lambast me on the simple basis that I believe that before we can even contemplate a separate nation we should be able to prove to us that we are truly capable of doing things on our own rather than always waiting on Gov. handouts like all the other provinces.<p>And finally BK. My stay in the USA has taught me about the beauty of diversity, and I will say my appreciation for it began at home. Not all shonas are evil. I know you guys are the very conservative ndebeles, and I am more liberal. But if you expect this Mthwakazi to be democratic, then you have to give people like me an ear, and thats all I ask.<p>I WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE THE CONTENTION THAT MATLANDS AUTONOMY SHOULD NOT BE BASED ON TRIBALISM, BUT A CULTURE THAT LOVES, APPRECIATES, AND ADVOCATES FOR INNOVATION AND RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.<p>What would be wrong with a shona who believes in these same principles living in and developing Matland like the rest of us should?<p>

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Ngqwele
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matabele<p>we are advocates of a matabele federal state existing with other zimbabwean federal states!<p>we have not advocated a Seperate State as you mistakenly put it. there is a difference there!<p>there is nothing wrong with that type of autonomy!<p>it is not tribal becoz now matland is no longer purely matabeles only!<p>have you been to byo? if you have, then you would know for sure that we now have plenty of shona byo citizens!<p>i understand more have been exported to our shores through the land reform programme!<p>this is about regional autonomy not tribal autonomy as the mashona supremacist propaganda would put it! <p>you have fallen for that propaganda!<p>Now I understand why you say we should have contributed to that programme!<p>But this programe was not gonna benefit us alone!<p>and why is it that when it comes to development programmes in our region we are urged to contribute while in mashonaland the shonas do not contribute for such programmes. it is the gvt that pays even if those programmes are not national programmes!<p>you are contradicting yourself..you have just said this programme is a national programme, but then when it comes to funding, it is got to be us alone the matabeles!<p>this programme has got a forseeable green belt, where the pipeline will go through and yet you say only the matabeles should pay for that programme!<p>you are being unfair and unjust to our peoples!<p>they are being robbed in daylight and you condon this type of behaviour!<p>i would understand if they were asked to pay for the... is it the Gwayi-Shangani dam ?<p>all zimbabweans not ndebeles alone through the gvt should pay for this programme! it will not benefit us alone but everyone!<p>if we pay for it alone, will we be garanteed that it is only ndebeles that are going to benefit from it alone!<p>when we put that across we are called tribalist!<p>on the contrary it is not!<p>

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