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amatshono bafethu i hope likahle lana elikhona.let me make it clear ukuthi i have nothing against lembas "being" jews.maar i have problems with people who abuse science-be they reputable scintists, television stations or obscure tribes seeking publicity.
genetically jews are not the oldest tribe,the oldest tribe is black african (source:human genome project)at present i am verifying whethet it is a minor east african tribe(forgot the name:source, national geographic)or the san(source:bbc documentary).
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my point is that sharing long lost genetic ancestors doesn't mean we identify with each other
humans and apes share a genetic history but it doesn't mean that apes are humans.historically there were no ndebeles before mzilikazi nor zulus before shaka.there were various tribes battling each other.so if some black american dna points to a genetic history with the current zulus it doesn't mean he is zulu.it means he shares ancestors with the people who today are known as zulus but the ancestors themselves might have been something else.ie ancestors of people who we know as zulus today are varied but shaka moulded them.they were not zulus before shaka moulded them.they were whwtever they were.


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Very interesting topic indeed. I like it when you say
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ie ancestors of people who we know as zulus today are varied but shaka moulded them.they were not zulus before shaka moulded them.they were whwtever they were.
Guys in your discussion I note that you have not discused or mentioned the role of the Khoikhoi and the San as inregards to physical features being influenced by DNA and the environment where these ancient people once lived. Has anyone ever scrutinised the Khoikhoi and San cave drawings and the lost scrolls in the bible? Could there not be a link? food for thought. About the lembe, I cannot say much but to say that I apreciate what you guys have contributed on the subject.

On onother note, Could we also say the Tonga of Binga might be biologicaly related to the Jamaicans? Where did the Tonga come from before settling in Zimbabwe? Could they have not run away from the slave traders in the Weswt of Africa and found themselves in Southern Africa? Lets have onother documentary on this one.

Ngiyabonga.

Last edited by Udabaluthethwa; 09/01/08 10:03 PM.

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The debate is far above me, very interesting and very confusing at the same time. I wish i could understand your scientific terms.


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Originally Posted by mpumelelo101
amatshono bafethu i hope likahle lana elikhona.let me make it clear ukuthi i have nothing against lembas "being" jews.maar i have problems with people who abuse science-be they reputable scintists, television stations or obscure tribes seeking publicity.
genetically jews are not the oldest tribe,the oldest tribe is black african (source:human genome project)at present i am verifying whethet it is a minor east african tribe(forgot the name:source, national geographic)or the san(source:bbc documentary).
Quote
my point is that sharing long lost genetic ancestors doesn't mean we identify with each other
humans and apes share a genetic history but it doesn't mean that apes are humans.historically there were no ndebeles before mzilikazi nor zulus before shaka.there were various tribes battling each other.so if some black american dna points to a genetic history with the current zulus it doesn't mean he is zulu.it means he shares ancestors with the people who today are known as zulus but the ancestors themselves might have been something else.ie ancestors of people who we know as zulus today are varied but shaka moulded them.they were not zulus before shaka moulded them.they were whwtever they were.

With the greatest of respect I think that you are in danger of loosing the plot on a monumental scale as some of your statements now begin to border on the outrageous. You assert though you show no evidence that science has been abused in this issue of the Lemba and their genetic ancestry. In this specific issue I fail to see where the abuse of science has occurred. We have established that the Lemba have claimed for themselves this Jewish ancestry. How do you propose that the veracity of this claim be invesitgated? By soothsayers and fortune tellers gazing into crystal balls? At least two independent scientific groups had the wherewithal to embark on what is clearly a detailed, comprehensive and rigorous study that within the limitations of the tools that they used appears to suggest that the Lemba's claim of Jewish ancestry may be consistent with their oral tradition. How does that constitute an abuse of science?
Granted that there are organisations and companies out there selling genetic ancestry kits/tests to the general public. Because of the nature of these tests and their limitations the results are as you point out questionable and open to interpretation which may constitute an abuse of science. However it has been established above that the Lemba have been subject to at least two detailed and comprehensive scientific studies whic are a far cry from the world of kits that can easily be purchased over the internet. Thus your assertion that in the case of the Lemba science has been been abused sounds hollow and baseless.

You then go on to dismiss them (Lemba) as an obscure tribe that is seeking publicity. Again you show no evidence for these essentially wild and colourful claims. What is the measure of obscurity and by what authority do you dismiss the nation of the Lemba as publicity speaking and obscure? Let me state that I am not Lemba but that you should dismiss them in a quintessentially cavalier, bordering on unbridled arrogance, manner is something that I personally find repulsive and offensive.

It is my understanding (though I could be wrong) that the Lemba not only share a genetic link with the Jews but also have cultural practices that are similar if not identical. Thus their claim, it would appear, extends beyond just a genetic link.
Another very important point that you appear to be missing is that the Lemba's claim to Jewish ancestry precedes the testing that has been done unlike that of you african american who claims Zulu heritage after a test has been done.


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Quote
"The conclusion that she had Zulu ancestry would indicate that Oprah's mitochondrial DNA lineage must have had an identical match to someone in the global database who was identified as a Zulu individual," Prof Soodyall said.

Language groups

Prof Soodyall pointed out, however, that genetic lineages did not correspond precisely to cultural or linguistic groups such as the Zulu nation.source bbc:15/06/2008, available on their website [/qoute].
i am not disputing that lembas are jews. this is not open for debate because lembas are lembas and jews are jews but they may have shared ancestors who most likely were neither jews nor lembes but something else.why do you continue to insist on lembas being jews when logically they are clearly not.
[quote] prof Soodyall pointed out, however, that genetic lineages did not correspond precisely to cultural or linguistic groups
.

Last edited by mpumelelo101; 09/02/08 11:21 AM. Reason: error in posting

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i have some intresting info which i think will spice this debacle about the lembas claiming to be jews.
1.arabs and jews share most genes.there are arabs with the same jewish y-chromosal gene which some lembes have
2.between jews and arabs,arabs were the only ones to set base in southern africa, in sofala,moz.
3.initially arabs practiced judaism before the islamic invasion of arabia.
4.the lembes claim jewish ancestry through y-chromosome analysis.however only one in ten have this gene.also it is only the buba elements of the lembe who have it in concentrations similar to those found in israel.this actually implies that the buba elements may be descendants of the arabs who practised jadaism and opted to stay is sofala and sorroundings(including venda(mapungubwe) and GreatZim) after the islamic invasion because they would have been forced to convert.
its similar to the fact that only the zansi elements of the ndebele are genetically expected to havu zulu dna though because of inter marrying the other clanc who are noe part of the ndebele may have them in lower concerntrations
5.the lembes claim to have wholly built great zim.however this is disputed by achaelogical evidence, however the arabic influence of especially the great enclosure is obvious as it is very similar to those found in yemen.
6. the lembes innermost rituals actually use muslim arabic rather than jewish hebrew. this futher bolsters the point that they are descendants of arabs who practised judaism
7. tribes with the same y-chromosome are also found in aolng the entire east african coast, from moz to athiopia to yemen.the lembes dispite being in venda and south-western zim are no exception as arabic traders regularly moved inland and theses places are not very far from the coast.

food for thought jazi and mpumz

Last edited by dubelamadube; 09/02/08 12:47 PM. Reason: eg

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Originally Posted by mpumelelo101
Quote
"The conclusion that she had Zulu ancestry would indicate that Oprah's mitochondrial DNA lineage must have had an identical match to someone in the global database who was identified as a Zulu individual," Prof Soodyall said.

Language groups

Prof Soodyall pointed out, however, that genetic lineages did not correspond precisely to cultural or linguistic groups such as the Zulu nation.source bbc:15/06/2008, available on their website [/qoute].
i am not disputing that lembas are jews. this is not open for debate because lembas are lembas and jews are jews but they may have shared ancestors who most likely were neither jews nor lembes but something else.why do you continue to insist on lembas being jews when logically they are clearly not.
[quote] prof Soodyall pointed out, however, that genetic lineages did not correspond precisely to cultural or linguistic groups
.

There you go again making authoritative and substantive statements which are NOT backed up by form of evidence - credible or otherwise. Since when did you become the doyen of what is and what is not open for debate? You state that
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why do you continue to insist on lembas being jews when logically they are clearly not.

I am tempted to ask what logic given the lack thereof in some of the arguments that you make!! It is not a case of me insisting that the Lemba are Jews or you insisting that they are not, rather it is a case of what the Lemba say about their identity. Do they say that they are Jews or not? For the upteenth time allow me to make this simple points
a) it is not the scientist or Channel four who foisted upon the Lemba the issue of Jewish ancestry.
b) It is the Lemba themselves who have claimed Jewish ancestry as narrated via oral history. Indeed some of them have claimed to be Jews (demonstrated below).
c) Moreover a medical practioner a Dr Wapnick states:-
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?When I was a resident in Harare,Zimbabwe, I noted that Tay Sacks, Nieman-Pick and other diseases prevalent among Jews were present in some of my black patients. I wondered then if they were of Jewish origin....."
source - http://www.kulanu.org/newsletters/1999-summer.pdf
d)Scientific investigation/s were carried out into these claims. Again at this juncture I would like to pose the question that you have studiously ignored - If not through scientific investigation how do you propose that the claims of the Lemba be verified?
e) The scientific study/ies have come back and seem to support their claim of Jewish ancestry.
f) This together with their cultural practices appears to validate their claim of being Jews.
g) there does not appear to any articles published in the scientific press that dispute the specific genetic studies carried out on the Lemba. I have not come across any and neither, would it, appear have you. The disputation of Prof Soodyall appears to be a general one rather than specific and relating to the studies on the Lemba.

Now what or where in the above narrative (a-g) is illogical?

While you may dismiss the genetic ancestry with what is fast becoming customary arrogance how do you explain the oral history of the Lemba that claims Jewish ancestry? How do you explain the prevalence amongst the Lemba of diseases that present in Judaic populations? How do you explain the cultural similarities between Judaic peoples and the Lemba?

I would be grateful if you would see it fitting to answer these and earlier questions that I have posed to you rather than the seemingly baseless assertions that you have been blurting out.

To return to the issue of what the Lemba say about themselves, in 1999, a Professor Matshaya Mathivha then president of the Lemba Cultural Association (SA) stated
Quote
?You can?t deny us the history and the origin. Many things were built up here [in Africa] and we have developed as a community here. But we are Jews from Palestine, whether the Jews in Israel like it or not.?
source http://www.kulanu.org/newsletters/1999-summer.pdf

Thus to paraphrase the Lemba are jews whether or not mpumelelo101 of the ether likes it or not!! But on a more serious note what the good Professor is alluding to above is the notion that because they have now settled in Southern africa their culture, norms ideas and ideals have evolved and may thus not be 100% similar or compatible with the mainstream Jews of Israel, but nonetheless the core Judaic principles remain intact.
The question of identity is an imnportant one - what is clear is that the Lemba seemingly identify themselves as Jews seemingly on the basis of their oral tradition (backed up by science) while on the other you do not identify them as Jews for reasons that thus far remain murky.
Whose definition of who the Lemba are should prevail- that which they have come up with themselves or one which you are seeking to foister on them?


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Originally Posted by dubelamadube
4.the lembes claim jewish ancestry through y-chromosome analysis.however only one in ten have this gene.also it is only the buba elements of the lembe who have it in concentrations similar to those found in israel.this actually implies that the buba elements may be descendants of the arabs who practised jadaism and opted to stay is sofala and sorroundings(including venda(mapungubwe) and GreatZim) after the islamic invasion because they would have been forced to convert.
its similar to the fact that only the zansi elements of the ndebele are genetically expected to havu zulu dna though because of inter marrying the other clans who are now part of the ndebele may have them in lower concerntrations
jazelindizayo i know the fact that it i the lembes who claim to be jews backed by science.i have no nkinga with this all i am saying is scrutinize,scrutinize and scrutinize.
population genetics is no way near personal genetics in terms of reliability and universal interpretation.that why i said one can derive whatever conclusion he desires from population genetics because it does not tell the whole story.it is about bits and pieces.
the buba clan of the lembe actually has the greatest concerntration of this y-chromosome-what does this tell you?
this y-chromosome is common along the east coast of africa.what does this tell you?
arabs dominated this coast to do their trading.initially arabs practiced jadaism and the innercore beliefs of the lembe are done in arabic instead of hebrew.what does this tell you?
personally i have no respect for oral history, its highly unrelible and reflects wishes of the teller with a little truth if any.
to me i will rather say the buba clan of the lembes have a middle eastern anscestry but to say the lembes have a jewish one, its a far fetched idea, regardless of what they say!


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the buba clan of the lembe actually has the greatest concerntration of this y-chromosome-what does this tell you?

I don't know, but i think for example in our own situation, we have many tribes and we have inter-married. So you might find that those who have not been involved in inter-marriages for a long, lets say they came from Zululand or Natal, they will have more genes resembling those people. Maybe the Bubha tribe has been too strict when it came to intermarriages before. I am just speculating majents. I am following this debate with great interest. Mpume you said that Lembas are likely to be Arabic than Jewish, but how do you know whether those Arabs did not have Jewish blood? I agree this topic is complicated, the more i try to understand it the more i get confused


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Originally Posted by mpumelelo101
Originally Posted by dubelamadube
4.the lembes claim jewish ancestry through y-chromosome analysis.however only one in ten have this gene.also it is only the buba elements of the lembe who have it in concentrations similar to those found in israel.this actually implies that the buba elements may be descendants of the arabs who practised jadaism and opted to stay is sofala and sorroundings(including venda(mapungubwe) and GreatZim) after the islamic invasion because they would have been forced to convert.
its similar to the fact that only the zansi elements of the ndebele are genetically expected to havu zulu dna though because of inter marrying the other clans who are now part of the ndebele may have them in lower concerntrations
jazelindizayo i know the fact that it i the lembes who claim to be jews backed by science.i have no nkinga with this all i am saying is scrutinize,scrutinize and scrutinize.
population genetics is no way near personal genetics in terms of reliability and universal interpretation.that why i said one can derive whatever conclusion he desires from population genetics because it does not tell the whole story.it is about bits and pieces.
the buba clan of the lembe actually has the greatest concerntration of this y-chromosome-what does this tell you?
this y-chromosome is common along the east coast of africa.what does this tell you?
arabs dominated this coast to do their trading.initially arabs practiced jadaism and the innercore beliefs of the lembe are done in arabic instead of hebrew.what does this tell you?
personally i have no respect for oral history, its highly unrelible and reflects wishes of the teller with a little truth if any.
to me i will rather say the buba clan of the lembes have a middle eastern anscestry but to say the lembes have a jewish one, its a far fetched idea, regardless of what they say!

It is ironic that I am being urged to scrutinize, scrutinize, scrutinize by one who has spent the best part of this discussion dodging, diving and ducking questions put to him eg a) Why does a medical practioner make reference to high incidence of people of Lemba origin presenting with diseases that are common amongst Jews? b) How do you propose that the claims of the Lemba to Jewish ancestry be investigated? Before you attempt to remove the twig in my eye I would stongly urge you to remove that great big log of oak in yours!

Deary deary me it seems that we have come full circle - you started of claiming that the genetic link between the Lemba and thier Jewish ancestry was no more so than that between say the Xhosa and the Jews i.e the link was general rather than specific. Now that you have been challenged with credible evidence it would appear that you have now shifted the angle of your denialism to focus on the genetic linkage between the Lemba and the Jews and the Arabs. Again you appear to be in denial about the speficity of the link and tending towards the general though this time the general is restricted to Arabs.

In one of my posts I provided you with the links/abstracts of two articles. I was hoping that you would do some "homework" and take the trouble to seek out those articles and read them in their entirety. It would appear that my hopes were misplaced.
Nevertheless, in response to the questions that you ask may I respond by a question: - What is a Semite? Does it refer to Jews or people of Middle Eastern origin? When you have answered that question go back to the first reference (the one published in 1996) and read the abstract again with special attention to the claims made about the origins of the Lemba's chromosomes.
Once you have done that I strongly urge you to visit this link

This is the link to the full text article of the second reference. Once you have done that may I urge you to pay particular attention to the justification of that study relative to the first reference. Having read the justification I would urge you to pay particular attention to the what the authors say about the Cohen modal haplotype particularly it distribution among Semites and amongst the Lemba. If this is the chromosome that you are referring to when you assert that
Quote
this y-chromosome is common along the east coast of africa
.
then you may want to revisit/revise this assertion.

As for the Lemba carrying out their practices in Arabic rather than Hebrew you might want to read up on where the Lemba claim to have migrated from paying particular attention to where Sena is located and what the predominant language is.

Oral history
While you enjoy the luxury of being able to dismiss oral history as being unreliable it would be worth bearing in mind that even written history is not infallible and free from the bias of the recorder of the events. And while we are on the subject of dismissing oral history just how much of the history of your own people Amandebele do you dismiss with the same disdain given that much of it has, in keeping with many African communities, been passed down via the oral route?

The genetic testing carried out on the Lemba alone does not tell the complete story of their origin/s. The genetic testing must be taken in the context of both historical narratives and cultural determinants.


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Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.

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