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Originally Posted by jazi
but we are jews from palestine whether jews in israel like it or not
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i am sick and tired of especially blacks claiming to be ("current,ie whitish jews in power in israel") jews based on an oral history link, which in this case is allegedly backed by science when it is very clear, at least racially, linguistically& regionally that they are not.they might have genetic history maar they are NOT jews. jews are jews and lembas should accept being amalemba and stop being amalema.just like ndebeles are ndebeles and zulus are zulus. ndebeles lot their zulu-ship when they moved noord and lemba lost their jewish-ness when they moved south. they are now lembas not jews,jy verstaan??
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lembas are jews whether mpumelelo101 like it or not, whose definition of the lemba should prevail?
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lembas should stop clinging to their orally sexed up jewishness and move on with their lives. lembas are lembas and jews are jews.it doesn't need a rocket scientist to identify a jew just like it doesn't need an antrolopogist to pick an african from whites, jews aborigins indians etc.
Originally Posted by jazelindizayo
then you dismiss them as an obscure tribe seeking publicity
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aren't they?how many are they?is lemba an official language anywhere?is lemba literature readily available?are they geographically defined?
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how do you propose their jewish ancestry claims be investigated
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they should de-colonize their minds and move on. their claims do nothing but harm us blacks as we appear not to be proud of being black. they are perpetuated by white racists who do such documentaries.
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how does a medical practitioner bla..bla..bla
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coincidentally he is white but besides this techically he can come with the same conclusion if he practiced in arabia where "jewish genes" are of similar composition. then lembas will be arabic and also jewish, besides being lemba?


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Originally Posted by mpumelelo101
Originally Posted by jazi
but we are jews from palestine whether jews in israel like it or not
.
i am sick and tired of especially blacks claiming to be ("current,ie whitish jews in power in israel") jews based on an oral history link, which in this case is allegedly backed by science when it is very clear, at least racially, linguistically& regionally that they are not.they might have genetic history maar they are NOT jews. jews are jews and lembas should accept being amalemba and stop being amalema.just like ndebeles are ndebeles and zulus are zulus. ndebeles lot their zulu-ship when they moved noord and lemba lost their jewish-ness when they moved south. they are now lembas not jews,jy verstaan??
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lembas are jews whether mpumelelo101 like it or not, whose definition of the lemba should prevail?
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lembas should stop clinging to their orally sexed up jewishness and move on with their lives. lembas are lembas and jews are jews.it doesn't need a rocket scientist to identify a jew just like it doesn't need an antrolopogist to pick an african from whites, jews aborigins indians etc.
Originally Posted by jazelindizayo
then you dismiss them as an obscure tribe seeking publicity
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aren't they?how many are they?is lemba an official language anywhere?is lemba literature readily available?are they geographically defined?
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how do you propose their jewish ancestry claims be investigated
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they should de-colonize their minds and move on. their claims do nothing but harm us blacks as we appear not to be proud of being black. they are perpetuated by white racists who do such documentaries.
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how does a medical practitioner bla..bla..bla
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coincidentally he is white but besides this techically he can come with the same conclusion if he practiced in arabia where "jewish genes" are of similar composition. then lembas will be arabic and also jewish, besides being lemba?

Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

In an earlier response to one of your posts I warned that you were in danger of loosing the plot. I was wrong and for that I apologise profusely. For, on the evidence of this that you have written above, it would appear that you have never had the plot in the first instance.

For starters what has the Lemba's claims of being Jewish got to do with pride in being black? Have the Lemba stated that by claiming Jewish ancenstry they are here-by renouncing their "blackness". And precisely where have the Lemba stated that they are not proud to be black?

You then go on to make the frankly ridiculous claim that the white people who made the documentary are racist!!A documentary which you have confessed you knew nothing about until you stumbled upon this thread startred by Mthakathi. So by all accounts you have not watched the documentary nor do you know anything about the makers of the documentary.Yet despite the glaring gaps in you knowledge you accuse the documentary makers of being racist! On what grounds, then, do you make these scurrilous assertions of the documentary makers being racist? Is it by virtue of their being white that renders them racist?

And decolonizing the mind is you proposal for investigating the veracity of Lemba Jewish ancestry claims? What precisely does that mean and how does it solve the conundrum at hand??

I cannot honestly say whether or not Lemba literature is readily available not can I tell you to the nearest ten what the population of the Lemba is.What level of population qualifies a tribe/nation so as to make it unobscure?
However, what I find staggering is that being an official language has now become a measure of obscurity. In so far as I know Lemba is not an official language of any country. In Zimbabwe there are three official languages - Ndebele, Shona and English. KwaMthwakazi alone there exists a plethora of other languages including Khalanga, Nambya and Tonga. Again to the best of my knowledge none of these languages are official languages anywhere - does that render them Khalanga, Nambya and the Tonga obscure and hence insignificant?

You then claim that the Lemba lost their Jewishness when they moved south.Are you finally throwing in the towel and admitting that the Lemba have Jewish ancestry? How else could they loose their Jewishness if they were never Jews as you havee been arguing? Academic accounts relate how a sighnificant proportion the cultural practices of the Lemba show Judaic leanings (and most certainly Semitic traces). On what grounds do you then claim that they have lost their Jewishness? What is the definition of Jewishness?

It is unfortunate that you have to resourt to slogans - the Lemba are the Lemba, the Jews are the Jews, Ndebeles are ndebeles and Zulus are zulus to bolster your argument.This is cheap and frighteningly Zanu-esque (The land is the economy and the economy is the land!!). For a man who swept in into this thread and jumped in feet first as some kind of expert on genetics and statistics it is sad to see you reduced to this state of incoherence. I guess your above post in particular and others in general bear witness to the fact that genetics is not your strong suit despite all the bluster and brimstone that you bring to the thread. I guess that means that none of the substantive questions that I asked you will ever be answered but I dare to dream!!


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Between the two gentlemen i don't know who is correct, they both exhibit superior knowledge when it comes to genetics, but i am worried about Mpumelelo's emotional and divesionary tactics. Jazi asked him some pertinent questions, but he has not answered most of them and now it seems he is increasingly becoming incoherent in his arguements. Please go back to Jazi's questions and try to answer them, if you don't know them it does not kill to say i am sorry i don't have any clue.

Last edited by Mthakathi27; 09/04/08 11:38 AM. Reason: spelling

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guys can someone clarify what a jew is. is someone a jew by the bible or millitary power or tribe or race or region or length of nose or colour of eyes. does practising jadaism make someone a jew? does having fragments of DNA which coincidentally some people who claim to be jews make some black african a jew. after mpumeleo101 and jazelindizayo answer these questions in layman's terms i think sanity will prevail!!


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JAZELINDIZAYO, i NEVER disputed the DNA link between Lembas and Jews(see my first tread). i made it clear that lembas are black and jews are whitish hence lembas can't and will never be jews. they may share a genetic history. however i am sceptical of the interprettation of population genetics. its never as simple as it sounds.
Originally Posted by sgwagwagwa
mpumelelo101 i am amused by your mockery of the fact that DNA shows that races and different animals are related
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it was sarcasm which you misstook for mockery. actually i support DNA analysis though i have issues with the interprettation of population genetics.
Originally Posted by zphoso
lembas may be related not descended...i further submit that any lemba folk feeling closer to the jews are given fantasist fantasies of escapism and are most likely in deep hatred of themselves...
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i agree 100% with you. lembas should smell the coffee and wake up!!
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consider a Ndebele who raped a shona in 1840...
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i sincerely apologize for the unintentional mistake. i could bear a shona man raping a scarce and precious ndebele woman!!
Originally Posted by dubelamadube
thread 39751
i also agree with you 100%!!
[quote=mthakathi27] you said lembes can be likely to be arabs not jews how do you know that arabs did not have jewish?[quote].
southern africa has a history of arabs and not jews. actually arabs and jews share DNA hence i suggest lembas are jadaised arabs!!
FOR THE RECORD i do not dispute any scientific evidence regarding the lembes maar i dispute the interprettation thats why i said scrutinize, scrutinize and scrutinize!!.
with all due respect i also think that khalangas, nambyas, tongas are obscure and insignificant. if we don't rescue ourselves (ndebeles) we are likely to be thrown into the same pit. sophaphama sesinga mashona!!!


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Again rather than addres the questions put to you you merely attempt to muddy the waters even further by going through the thread and picking out issues to address most of which have absolutely nothing to do with me or any of the questions that I put to you!!

You may fool some people some of the time but you can not fool all the people all of the time.

Let me hasten to say that by no means do I make claims on being an expert on genetics (or anything else for that matter!). I am but a mere son of the soil odobha ambhimu for a living who nonetheless has a fascination with the world around me!
Be that as it may let me say that Mpumelelo you may have managed to hoodwink some forumites into thinking that you have a suerior understanding of genetics and hence you are some kind of expert on the subject but the posturing and posing that you have adopted throughout this thread tells me that you are no expert on this subject. There is no one with a superior knowledge of genetics who would be at pains to describe an organism as being physically one thing and genetically another as you did when you asserted that the black Americans were physically black but genetically Caucasiane!!! banghead This is because this concept of the relationship between phenotype and genotype is an elementary one that is (used) to be taught at O'level via the "story" of Gregor Mendel and his peas!!

You are also fast becoming the master at self contradiction. On the one hand you claim that you have never disputed the link between the Lemba and the Jews but in the very next breath you suggest that the Lemba are Arabs!!! If this is not disputing the link then I do not know what it is!

A couple of days ago I asked you, amongst other questions, what a Semite is. I ask again What is a Semite? Given the deafening silence coming from you it is apparent to all that you have no clue what a Semite is. If you knew what a Semite is you would not be jumping up and down about the Lemba being Arabic but not Jewish!!!
According to http://ardictionary.com/Semitic/4503, http://www.answers.com/topic/semite, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite a semite is term that may be used to describe a group of people that belong to amongst others Jewish and Arabic peoples. Indeed the the first abstract in one othe references that I posted earlier in this thread states
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The results suggest that ≤50% of the Lemba Y chromosomes are Semitic in origin

This is because the "tests" that they had used could not distinguish between Arabs and Jews. The "tests" could distinguish between Bantu and Semtic ancestry markers and significantly the Bantu cohort used in the study was found not to contain Semitic markers in their Y chromosomes. I recall that I also asked you to read the full article of the second scientific study and the justification for that study. It would appear that you have failed to do so for reasons best known to yourself. However one of the justifications of the second genetic study on the Lemba was to attempt to resolve this ambiguity. This is where the Cohen Modal Haplotype comes into the fray as the results of the study suggest that this is relatively reliable marker for Jewish ancestry that is, it is occurs with greater frequency in the Jewish population than in the Arabic.If I am not mistaken the study found that this marker occured at a higher frequency in the Lemba than in the Arabic sample used in the study. What this does is :

a) makes your calls to scrutinize, scrutinize scrutinize sound hollow for you have failed to do precisely that in this instance.

b) blows a huge hole into your argument that the Lemba are jadaised (sic) Arabs

c) tells me that you have not read the articles in their entirety or

d) if you have read them then you have not understood them otherwise you would not insist on making these wild, ludicrous and ridiculous statements that you have been making and finally

e) puts the final nail into the coffin that you are some kind of expert on genetics!

That your definition of being a Jew seems to be centered on the colour of your skin epitomises what is at best woolly headed thinking and at worst an alarming level of ignorance. Again the first reference of the genetic studies says that around 40% of the chromosomes of the Lemba are of Bantu origin. And in case you did not know one of the phenotypic traits of the Bantu is that they are black!! A more holistic definition would extend beyond skin colour to include determinants such as culture, religion and historical narrative.Through their oral history the Lemba have claimed Jewish ancestry and some of their religious practices are accepted to be Judaic. This taken together with the scientific evidence (which by no means is perfect but at the present moment is the best thing going) seems to lend credibility to the Lemba's claims.

It is ironic that you then end your rambling post with warnings of the Ndebele loosing their identity. The story of the Lemba is essentially one about identity. I think that it is remarkable that as a people they have maintained on oral tradition that tells of their origins for over two millenia. It is but a sign of a confused mind that on the one hand dismisses people/nations and tribes and seeks to deny them their right to notonly express but seek answers about their identity while on the other issues a call to arms for a tribe/nation to maintain its own identity>

I am not at liberty to speculate about the Lemba's frame of mind in claiming to be Jewish thus I cannot comment on whether this is a form of escapism or some form of deep hatred of themselves. I will leave that idle and baseless speculation/s to cyber-based selft styled genetic and pyschology experts such as you. Quite how you make that leap and twist of logic is beyond me in as much as you leapt to the conclusion that the makers of the documentary were racist. One is left to wonder who it is that should not only wake up and smell the coffee but drink it by the gallon as well - you or the Lemba?



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lembes are most likely arabs not jews [/qoute].
its a pity that you can't verstaan my loose use of the word "arabs" above. i was reffering to those having arabic roots and not being arabs literally.

[quote] mahlaba you were not wrong: lemba ARE JEWS
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1.if the word "jews" above is being loosely used to refer to those jews which Hitler killed, those who invented the current israelli state and are oppressing palestines, then obviously the lemba ARE NOT jews.
2. if it is being loosely used to refer to people with fragements of DNA which happens to be found in the jews of today's israel. then lembas are jews.
3. if being a jew is practising jewish-like customs then lembas are jews.
4. if someone is a jew because his oral history claims so (though it is prone to being heavily sexed-up by the teller). then the lembas are jews
5. if one is a jew because a doctor in harare found that though they are physically black they suffer from conditions that also affect the jews in present-day israel then the lembas are jews.
6. if one is a jew because he believes in judaism, regardless whether he is black/white/aborigin/american indian then the lemba are jews.
my argument on the lembe not being jews is based on definition of jew in (1) above. even if i give them the benefit of serious doubt and accept that they descended from the current jews (as we know them)it doesn't mean they are jews. it means they have jewish ancestors.ndebeles are not zulus,lembas are not jews!

Originally Posted by jazelindizayo
a semite is a person belonging to the amongst others jewish and arabic peoples...you shouldn't be ranting about the lemba being arabic but not jewish
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my grade 00 english tells me that you took things out-of-context!
by saying that lembas may be arabic and not jewish i was clearly reffering to the fact that its the judaism-practising-arabs who were dominant in the east coast of africa. i speculated that with the islamic invasion of arabia they most likely didn't return to arabia for religious and personal safety reasons thus they mingled with the locals hence the lembe.

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jews and arabs are semites
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i know and i don't dispute this. just like zulus and xhosas are nguni!!maar it doesn't mean that jews are arabs(or the opposite) hence my speculation of lembes being "judaised-arabs"(used loosely not literally ,jazelindizayo) doesn't mean i don't know semites. it actually shows that i understand it hence i didn't say lembes are semites which they are definately not hence they can't be jews because jews, like arabs are semites!!!!your very introduction of semites shows that you are running wild.

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makers of the ducumentary are racist
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don't you realize that they are painting blacks as desiring to be someother race? that these obscure-africans genuinely believe they are jews and they have oral tradition to prove it? i have no nkinga with blacks practising judaism but claiming to be jews..makes my blood boil. even Hitler knew what they looked like!!

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there is no one who has superior knowledge of genetics who is describes something as physically x and genetically y
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one can be able to deduce from a DNA sample whether some one is eg african or caucacian. with this in mind police can build a criminal's profile, however they have been shocked to discover that a gene's profile may indicate a criminal is caucasian only for him to be found as african american ie blackish. what this means is that he has more europian ancestry genes though he has a dominant black melin producing gene hence appearance can be deceiving!!!
NOTE jazelindizayo i might have appeared to ignore some of your questions maar i discovered that they are irrelavant to my position. ie i have little respect for the interprettation of population genetics hence regardless of how complicated the tests were(y-chromosomes, mtDNA,cohen modal haplotype) the fact that they use stratified sampling leaves a possibility that if a different sample is selected the results may not be the same. what do you say about the BUBA elements of the lemba having a significantly greater concentration of this gene, doesn't it ring a bell in your ear?don't you see that these Bubas might actually be descendants of the judaism-practising-arabs who mingled with natives.over time they lost their arabness though they continued practising judaism hence they are ignorantly claiming to be jews!!.
also i believe the results shouldn't be interpretted as literally you are. scrutinize, scrutinize...scrutinize!!

Last edited by mpumelelo101; 09/05/08 03:49 PM.

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You may lead an ass to water but you cannot make it drink!

I must say that some progress has been made- you appear to have accepted that Lembas have genes that are of Semitic origin which is a far cry from the days you asserted that the Lembas were just as related to the Jews as were the Xhosa. Where you now seem to have a problem is that not only do the Lemba have a Semitic heritage but that Semitic heritage is Jewish! Still in your guise as genetic expert you are now proposing that the Lemba's semitic heritage is in fact Arabic a fact that appears to have eluded the finest minds at Witwatersrand, UCL, Oxford and UC (Davis) but was picked up by you. A man who has problems understading that you phenotype is determined genetically!!!

So you ignored some of my questions because they were not relevant to your position ehh wink Relevant to your position - yeah right or would tha be my big big black clubfoot!! I think it is more likely that you did not know the answers to those questions. Gooogle and Wikipedia are indeed wonderful tools but they have their limitations and you soon get to stage where specialist insight and understanding are required to understand the subject matter at hand.

And what is this monstrosity that you call a "judaism-practising-arabs" What is this beast that you have now concocted again seemingly from fresh air?!! Would you be so kind enough as to tell us where these Judaism-practising arabs (sic) can be found in this present day? If Arabs and Jews are Semites - why is it one is referred to as Arab and the other as Jew? In other words what differentiates a Jew from and Arab? I hope you do not refer to type and start going on about the colour of their skin!!
And while you are at it what does the legend of the Lemba say about their migration to what is present day Southern Africa. How did they travel from what they call Sena to their current location? Where did they pass through?

Had you been at Beijing there is no doubt that you would have won a gold medal for self contradiction:-
a) on the one hand you are ready to accept that the Lemba may be of Jewish descent but on the other you resort to slogans that say that Jews are Jews and the Lemba are the Lemba. I presume that the Lemba are the Lemba because they are black as you argued and Jews are whitish (sic). Do you understand that being the requirements of being Jewish extend to more than just skin colour and language? Again I ask how about religion and culture and history? What makes the Lemba Jewish is not the colour of their skin nor this genetic link. It is the sum total of their history, their religious beliefs, their culture and most importantly how they choose to identify themselves. Again this is where your analogy of the Ndebele and the Zulu falls flat on its monkey face - the Zulus that fled from Tshaka as they travelled along assimilated other tribes and peoples including both men and women and ended up a heterogenous society. On the other hand the Lemba are described as endogamous with little or no uptake of males into the society that are not Lemba. And so here we are with two nations - the Ndebele - a mixed breed with Zulu, Tswana, Shona, Suthu, Tonga, Khalanga and other elements while on the other is a relatively homogenous society (Lemba) at least patrilinearly. The Ndebele cannot thus claim to be Zulus today because of their heterogeneity while the Lemba on the other hand, because theirs is not as heterogenous society can still claim to be Jews as it would appear that within the constraints of the conditions that they find themselves in, they have managed to retain those aspects of their lives that allow them to identify themselves as Jewish. To that end comparing the Lemba and Jews to the Zulus and Ndebeles is akin to comparing oranges and apples and blows apart your professed ability to scrutinize!!!

b) As for the painting of blacks - on the one had you bleat that the Lemba are obscure but on the other you squeal that they are desiring to be someother race!! If as you say the Lemba are obscure what does it matter and to whom does it matter if they should wish to be some other race Mr Scrutinize?By the way do not hallucinate any further thinking that I accept this balderdash - I do not accept that the Lemba's claim of Jewish ancestry has anything to do with want to be of some other race. Where is this evidence of self loathing on the part of the Lemba documented? Who was it documented by? When was it documented?

As for the ringing of the bell about the Buba clan - that is old ground that I have covered in previous posts and to answer your question no it does not ring a bell. Should it?

About stratfied sampling - yes stratified sampling has its problems and limitiations but bear in mind that it used on an every day basis in many industries including the pharmaceutical to make life saving drugs. So that you should use the issues surrounding stratified sampling as a stick with which to beat down the cries of self identity of the Lemba will not hold water. Read my posts above, read the scientific papers if you cann understand them and make a note of the temperates language that is used- note how many times the word or phrase "the results suggest" or "it would appear that" appears in those papers. Do you seriously think that the minds are Wits, UCL Oxford and UC (davis) were unaware of the limitations of stratified sampling in their experimental design and that is has taken you to bring that up? The fact of the matter is that until such a time that samples are taken that prove otherwise the results of the genetic studies are as they stand, with all the caveats about their limitations.
As for the literal interpretation of the results- coming from you I will take that as a joke - a very bad one at that but a joke nonetheless!!!


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Ekuhle.

Mina zihlobo I believe the Lemba History is only TRUE as it comes from the Lenba's mouth.

Singalibali ukuthi zigcwele izizwe ezizalwa ngokuhlanganiswa igazi. It is possible these Black Lemba claiming to be Jews were born by an immigrating Tribe of the Jews but the further South of the African Continent they went, the more darker wives they could find and finaly they lost their shade. THAT IS MY THEORY. But it is a posibility.

Amakhaladi esilawo ko Bulawayo akafuni ukuhlala labantu. Kodwa babhizi bayazala esintwini. Okungobhoyi kwakhona okuzalwayo kubhizi ku emphasizer ukuthi "Mina ngilikhaladi", okunye kumnyama kulathi abakaMblazi. Kulezibongo zesikhiwa mostly ezesi Moslem. Selake lananzelela nje zihlobo?

Kusasa okungo Khaladi lokhu loba kumnyama njani kungathi kungama Discendant abelungu lingathini? Thet is my theory. But it is a posibility.

Khonapha eNkundleni silamaNdebele azalwa yimihlobo yonke ebuthwa nguMzilikazi. Kodwa baqinisa ukuthi ubaba isibongo ngu Mgini, bangavezi ukuthi umama loba ugogo ozala ubaba ngu Moyo. Kodwa silokhu silabanye ababhizi ngokuthi ezinye izibongo ngezabeNguni angani bayakuqabuka njalo kusasebenza thina sizalwa kuMthwakazi. Ngumbono wami kodwa liqinisa.

Yimi okaMblazi.

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Mthakathi


Mthakathi labanye abafowethu,linjani zihlobo,i happy that you the documentary but when i mentioned about the Lemba or Abalemba as their we are known kwaGodlwayo i did not expect anyone to believe me,but mina when i was born this is what i was told by my grandfather who himself could not speak fluent ndebele or shona or any zimbabwean language but mix them all at the same,like the last the time i was told off by Mthakathi for mentioning that i was Lemba,i am not going to argue with anyone about whether the Lemba are related to the jews or not because its not something that had not read in the books,its something i was told when i was born and was raised as a Lemba,if it is a fantasy then it will live with me for the rest of my life.

I mean bafowethu who am i my in my clan to say NO we are not what you say we are after this was passed on through generations,its just like any other person really,if someone was to come to you say you are not Kalanga for whatever reason i might be,i think you would jus redicule them and jus live as a Kalanga

My point at first was that we are ndebele as ndebeles are made up of many tribes from wherever together lamandbele from kwaZulu but it does not mean we do not have origins as long as u are not indebele leZansi,i was given a ndebele name because my father got married to a ndebele lady that is my mother but my father,my grandfather going back had Names Hassane/Rave/Manasse/Jenane,Mushab.


Now talking of DNA,below is the graph showing the DNAs of the Cohen jews and the Lemba okunye okunengi ngizakutshiyela lina ukuthi lixoxe ngakho,kodwa mina its not something i will argue about with anyone unless they are Lemba and they have valid points to prove to me that i am not what my grandfather and my people told me i was.

[img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4672/lembarq6.jpg]


kumbe cofa ngaphansi kwelink engaphansi lapha uyezifundela,ukuthi u believe it or not is upto you kodwa ngiyabonga Mthakathi labanye bonke ngele ingxoxo.

The Lemba-Cofa Lapha




Sokuyikho Ukukhala Kwejuba !!!!,Sikujwayele !!!
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