Over the past few years we've been priviledged to have some well informed forumites besichasissela ngomdabuko wezibongo ezithile. Ngingathokoza kakhulu uma abalolwazi balandise nomdabuko wezibongo ezibiza Sibanda and Moyo ezitholakala koMthwakazi. Ngiyabonga.

Moyo is of Shona origins. A heart is mwoyo in Shona. These people are undisputedly of Shona extraction. Their totem is Vuma balanda (ngesiNdebele)or Vuma varanda in Shona. Kubuye kuthiwe ngo mageza ngobisi or mageza nemukaka. Kushukuthi oMoyo basesiNdebeleni baseyinto yinye namaShona. They're one & bakhonza idlozi linye! They only came to be part of Mntungwa's nation by assimilation. UMntungwa kaMbulazi absorbed the Moyo from the conquered Shona & henceforth they became amaHole, a part of the Ndebele, alongside the Enhla nathi abeNguni.

Sibanda: Laba ngabantu besi Tswana ngokwendabuko. They're called Sebata (pronounced Sibata) ngesi Tswana. Their totem is Tau tona(Tswana for great lion - ingonyama enkulu!) and has been adapted to Dawu duna ngesiNdebele. They're royalty kube Tswana. If you listen to all Tswana praise poets, they always emphasise a lot on Tau. They're Tau this, Tau that, blah, blah. For evidence, listen to Stoan Seete of Bongo Maffin - uzibongela kamnandi ngobu Tau bakubo. Also listen to Siphokazi Maraqana's new album, Ubuntu bam. Listen to song number 3 on the album: lapho ubonga those who helped her athi "Sebata, Tau thank you" etc etc.

In summary, mina wangaphesheya koThukela, mina Nkwali yenkosi, uShamase wangempela, uMtubatuba kaSomkhele, ngithi:
Moyo is undiluted Shona.
Sibanda is Tswana

Wena uthini?

OMoyo abakoMthwakazi asiwo maShona. Okhokho babo, bangabe babe ngamashona kodwa bona, by religion, culture and language, ngamaNdebele.

Funda ukuthi abantwana besihlangu babephathwa njani umbuso usahlezi. Lalingeke lenze imikhuba yalapha ekhaya libatshiye ngapandle. ubunengi babantu ababelapha ubundla nondo, were recruited into the Ameva regiment, from were the Amaveni T/Ship of Kwekwe derives its name.

Bakhona njalo abanye abavele bengamaShona abathi ngokuza sebenza koBulawayo, (it was the first industrial hub of the country kusabusa abamhlophe), used ndebele surnames for their shona ones. OSibanda bakoChirumanzu, oNdlovu labo Mpofu beMberengwa lezinye nje indawo zelizwe.

Hitshi-Hitshi

Or is it Hiss-hiss!!. Your lack of attention to detail will prove to be your undoing. Mnumzane, please pay attention to detail. See the wood from the trees.

I urge you to revisit & re-read my posting. This time with both your eyes open.

Mina kaNkwali, I addressed the issue of origin yezibongo zakwaMoyo no Sibanda. By origin, sisuke sisho indabuko, the very beginning yaleso sibongo. Period. Kungango kuthi isibongo sakwaNkwali siphuma phi. For that, you can't start hollering & blubbering about some Nkwalis in New York, London & such mumbo jumbo. That's irrelevant - ukufuduka kwabantu has led to Nkwalis all over the world. We want the source - ukuthi emandulo babevele benhloboni, beqhamuka phi!

AbakwaMoyo, in as much as benga bakini esiNdebeleni njenga manje, indabuko yabo ngeyesi Shona. Igama, Moyo, liqhamuka kwisitho, inhliziyo, which the Shona call, Mwoyo! Umuntu wakwaMoyo is therefore a Nhliziyo ngesiNdebele. They call themselves Moyo because they're Shonas - Mwoyo being inhliziyo in Shona. Banga maShona, izinyanya zakubo zigidela endlini, imikhuba yabo ngeyesiShona, izithakazelo zabo ngezesiShona, igazi labo ngelesiShoneni, inkaba yabo ilahlwa ngesiko lasebu Shoneni, kunye nentswebu yabo imbala ngeyase buShoneni. Ukuthi bakhuluma isiNdebele & so forth is irrelevant. Njalo ukuthi badabuka ebuShoneni is not an insult, it doesn't demean them as people. It's the plain unadulterated truth about the Moyos.

Mntongenakudla,

The term Shona itself is not the original term, therefore cannot be used to describe ama origins akoMoyo. The correct term is Lozwi.

Ukuthi Shona is only a term that is a mere 100 years old and is used to describe a certain grouping of which labo abathi ngaleso sikhathi beyisizwe samaNdebele were left outside.

Ngakho nxa sikhuluma ngomdabuko langamasiko, ngabe Lozwi.

Imvelaphi yolibo lwabantu bakwaMoyo

Gwinyambila!!!

Or is it Gwenyambira! You & Hiss Hiss must be Moyos. Why are you so defensive?

Your contention is far fetched. It misses the mark.

If you follow your argument to its finite conclusion , you'll find that ayikho nje into oyishoyo. If oMoyo bebe ngabeLozwi before they became amaShona, then amaShona were abeLozwi before they changed their nomenclature to Shona. Uma kunjalo bandla, pho why do you seek to hide ukuthi oMoyo ngamaShona? You can't suppress the truth by avoiding it. No.

I'll reiterate, the fact that oMoyo are of Shona origins does not in any way demean or depreciate their humanity. Bangabantu nabo, despite ubuShona babo. It's time they accepted lento abayi yona ukuze siba mukele for the Shona descendants they are.

Akulona ihlazo ukuba yisizukulwane samaShona.

By modern day definition of Shona, which is only a mere 100 years old, Shona people are those that speak the language which itself is a collection of different dialects.

Therefore by modern day description, amaNdebele yilabo abakhuluma isiNdebele. Abanye bathi amaNdebele nguMthwakazi wonke.

The real and original description of abakoMoyo is AbeNyai kumbe abeLozwi. They cannot originate from a descriptive term which itself is only 100 years old.

Furthermore, would I be correct to say "The origins of Shamase or Mkhwananzi are Ndebele?"

Gwenyambira

Vuma varanda, mageza nemukaka!
Sengiyavuma ngempela ukuthi, you're a true Moyo indeed. And you deserve ten out of ten for defending uhlanga lwakini.

On a more serious note, I must say, you're just meandering around in circles. Your far-fetched assertions are neither here nor there. Whether by intention, your own design or ubuwula: eish angazi. Your points are hollow: a sieve holds more water. You do not add any value to the person who started this thread.

Okusemqoka ukuthi iqiniso uyalazi. OMoyo ngamaShona ngokwe ndabuko. Whether the term amaShona is 100 yrs or 6 mths old is immaterial.

Bafowethu.

M'ntongelakudla, goqa iyembe mfan' ekhaya sihle sitshayane. Hirrrrrrrrr! Elamani?

Indaba le ilokulahleka kancane ngoba siyilanda ngembali ebekwa ngabantu bokuza.

O Moyo akusibo Matshona. Asekhona aMaTshona abizwa Moyo, njengoba esekhona njalo amaNguni abizwa Shamase. AbeLozwi, yibo ngomdabuko abalesizwe esibizwa Moyo, njengoba esetshilo omunye phambilini. Njalo abe Lozwi, laMaTshona kwaphuma embizeni ezehlukeneyo.

AMaTshona ngomdabuka babebizwa Ama-Tapa, kumbe Zezuru. Izizwanyana zakibo lezi esezithiwa Kwerekwere, MaNyika, MaToko, MaKaranga, ngosekuvuka nje ngemva kokwehlukana kwesizwe sabo sakuqala esithiwa Ma-Tapa.

Ukuthi bathiwe MaTshona yikuthunyelwa igama ngezinye izizwe.

Kuyafana labeNguni. Abe-Nguni bakuqala badabuka emfuleni uLuwangwa elizweni elithiwa Zambiya namhlanje. Umdabuli walesi sizwe yena eli NYASA. Uzwisise lapha ukuthi kwehlukene INYASA le NYANJA. Nguye lo Mnguni ozala oLuzumane, Omithiyonke, kuze kuye kubo Malandela.

Thina AMathonga siyizithunjwa zabeNguni sesibizwa abeNguni nje kungenxa yeSwazi elikhulu elalithiwa NGWANE (varient - Ngwana) elathatha untombazane ka Malandela uNovivinyo. Namhlanje sithiwa abeNguni kodwa akusithi esaqala leso sizwe.

Ngima lapho okwamanje.

Li Zwangendaba.

Zwangendaba

Wena wekunene!
Wena waphakade!
Wena wetive!

Ngikuzwa nginga dakwanga.

Kepha ngimi ngaloko engikushilo. OMoyo ngamaShona. Uzokhumbula wena wekunene ukuthi ngasho kusukela kudala ngabo 2004 ukuthi amaKalanga namaShona ngabantu banye. OMoyo laba obabika kithina baqhamuka endlini yebuKalanga! As a result bangamaShona. Uma uphawula ngezithakazelo zabo o-lopa blah, blah: ilopa leyo yi-ropa (igazi ngesiShona). BubuShona lobo!

You haven't strengthened the point of Moyos being non Shona. If anything, you're augumenting my point yokuthi laba bantu yindlu yase buShona. And the more you try to seperate them from their true Shona heritage, the more bezo fulathelwa ngamadlozi angempela akubo ebu Shoneni. Ukufulathelwa yidlozi bandla kuletha umshipoti - umkhokha, ukhriphula webhadi!

Again, I will emphasise ukuthi: akulona ihlazo ukuba yisizukulwane samaShona. Nabo ngabantu. It's time all Moyos accepted ukuthi badabuka ebuShoneni. Just like the Mpofus, Sizibas. All these are descendants of Chaminuka!

Ngiyabonga bobaba ngokufaka ulwazi lwenu lapha esigxingini. Kusobala kimi ukuthi ukuthi likhethe indlela ezihlukile ekuchasisene ngengxoxo yethu.

Njengoba kuyimi umabuza, into esingimqotho ngayo nemva kukuloba kwenu yikuthi abakoMoyo besibebehlezi eZimbabwe ngokufika kukaMzilikazi. Kukhanya liyavumelana ngalokho bafowethu.
UMnto uthi abakoSibanda baqhamuka eBotswana, njengoba kungekho muntu olombono ohlukileyo kutsho ukuthi uyitshaye ekhanda!

Bafowethu.

Inkinga ibisiba ekutheni kungaba labantu bakoMoyo esiShonewni, abantu besebegcoba wonke muntu iShona.

AmaKalanga have existed long before the Shona(MUTAPA or ZEZURU) came to BUDLANONDO.

Kufana le mistake yokuthi ungathi unguMhlanga sebesithi uliTSHANGANA. Izibongo omhlanga they cut across many tribes. AMATSHANGANA are just a new tribe formed by Sotshangane less than 150 years ago and it is full of the Mhlanga people.

OSIBANDA abaveli eBotswana ngoba layo i Botswana is a new society. Ubusithi ungafika esizweni esitsha ubuzwe isibongo. Besebethi abadala, Hayi OTAWU kuleli ngo DAWU. That means OSibanda baquma across a number of Societies.

UMNTWANA AKAZALI UYISE.

Abantu bako GUMEDE ngaMa Lozwi omdabuka. AMaZulu athi izulu YIMVULA (Mvura ngesiTshona), inombolo 8 amaTshona athi Tshibozwa, amaZulu athi SIBHOZO, Kutsho ukuthi aMaZULU ngamaTshona in the example given by Baba Mnto'ngela.



HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! ELAMANI.

Vika Mfana.

Li Zwangendaba.

This is very interesting indeed.Mina I think nje abantu sibanye,angithi lapha esivela khona nje kude,ungakudingisisa sibi sibili usiyamuva kambe awutholi ukuthi siMUNYE!

Kodwa ke njengoba sazehlukanisa singabantu,i think umuntu belongs to lapha okhuliswe khona,nxa unguMoyo weSindebele uyazi amasiko esindebele lesishona leso ungasazi,i guess uliNdebele but ma ukhuliswe ngesiShona leso then uyazi isiko lesishona then uyilo,but abantu nje generally-ONE THING.Jus different cultures.

wumbono wami nje lo.

Zwangendaba

Wena wekunene!
Wena waphakade!
Wena wetive!


Iqiniso yiqiniso. O-Moyo badabuka emaShoneni, just like amaKalanga edabuka emaShoneni. There’s no shame in the fact that oMoyo ngamaShona. It doesn’t demean or depreciate them as people.

AbakwaSibanda. I never said abakwaSibanda baphuma eBotswana. I said, ngokwendabuko bangabe Tswana. AbeTswana are not only in Botswana. Stoan Seete of Bongo Maffin is not from Botswana. The North West of Mzansi (where the Tswana people reside) is certainly not Botswana.

Another point of correction. The number 8 ngesiZulu esiqondile is: isishiyagalombili and not ISIBHOZO as you allege. Your allegation is devoid of truth and futhi izodukisa abantu, bafunde isiZulu sakho esibheke eceleni. Isibhozo yigama lesiXhosa baba.

Mina engithanda ukuthi uZwangendaba acace kukho yikuthi AmaKalanga lamaKaranga angabe engahlobananga na?

Impikiswano yenu zinsizwa ivula amehlo, qhubekani liqwaqwazana, okwakhathesi uZwangendaba usethole 8 out of 10, uMnto 7 out of 10.

Zuluboy, ubosebenz' ubuye! Kodwa kunjani ukuphila, ngiyabona usu 'back-spinile' lemibono yakho ekhontrovetshali.
Kodwa-ke, ukuba khontrovetshali kwakho ngabe yikuzama uku emphasiser your 'difference' from the rest of us amaNdebele I wonder?

Unga fosteli abantu, yeka babe yilokhu abayikho khona, njengoba nawe izolo ubungum' Ndebele namhla ungum' Zulu nje. Kunjalo-nje, ibambe mfanakithi, ungay'yeki.Sebenza!

Kuyangijabulisa kakhulu ukuzwa ukuthi ngensuku zalamhlnje kusekhona abantu abalolwazi olungaka, PROVIDED YOU ARE NOT FOOLING US. Mina ngokwami angali njalo angivumi ukuthi abako Moyo bayiwuphi umhlobo kumbe hatshi. Njengo Moyo nje kudala lamingifisa ukuthi ngazi imvelaphi yalesisibongo. Ngikengabase Salisbury ekuqaleni kwama90s, ngahlanga lenye indoda ebivela eTanzania ngezwa engitshela ukuthi bagcwele abako Moyo lakhonangale kubo eTanzania. Kambe kungayikho okwaqhamuka khona amaShona na? EMalawi khona angibali. Into engijabulisayo yikuthi lababantu bakoMoyo irregardless of which ever language or culture they are affiliated to, they are all similar. Majority man are slender and majority women are just too talkative and they have a problem with finding Mr. right. The women are too bossy in short. If there is any other Moyo reading this engangifakazela. Lapha ngitsho iMoyo etholaka accross what ever tribal differences. In short what I'm saying is that, Moyo is ONE but I can not confirm the origions. Thina abako Moyo singama "COLURED"

I have never heard one man talk a load of bullcrap like you do.

"Moyo is of Shona origins. A heart is mwoyo in Shona. These people are undisputedly of Shona extraction. Their totem is Vuma balanda (ngesiNdebele)or Vuma varanda in Shona. Kubuye kuthiwe ngo mageza ngobisi or mageza nemukaka. Kushukuthi oMoyo basesiNdebeleni baseyinto yinye namaShona. They're one & bakhonza idlozi linye! They only came to be part of Mntungwa's nation by assimilation. UMntungwa kaMbulazi absorbed the Moyo from the conquered Shona & henceforth they became amaHole, a part of the Ndebele, alongside the Enhla nathi abeNguni"

At times one would be foolish enough to take your word as you sometimes make yourself come across as very well informed. It makes me furious at times when I read idiotic posts like yours. But, I suppose this is the whole point of having a forum like this; that we can take comfort in listening to idiots like you entertain us.

Listen to me now and listen good. Us MOYOs are Ndebele like any other. Most of us singama Lozwi (derived form Rozwi). I am sure you know the dynamics of the Ndebele state so I shall not delve into that much detail, or maybe you don’t?

We might be amaHole but we are still part of Mthwakazi. Ndebeles are not Zulus. Ndebeles are Ndebeles. I think that is where you confuse yourself ndoda.To say that we are Shona through and through is an insult. Sibandas, Ndlovus, Ncubes, Dubes, Moyos, Mpofus, etc… Are all amaHole and a big part of Mthwakazi at that.

I wish I had more time to discuss!

Heyi kuyashisa laphekhaya, I think we are now missing our point of discission here Lapha sidingukwazi ngemvelaphi/lomdabuko wesibongo sakoMoyo and i think we all directly and indirectly agree on one thing IT COMES FROM SHONA ORIGIN, Zwangs said amaLozwi Umtho says Rozwi(akusiso isitshonalesi Mtho?)Kodwa ngokuguquka komhlaba baphela ubushona ngoba sekuhlangenwe namaNdebele ngemva kokuthunja kwabokhokho bakoMoyo ngokunjalo bakhona abesishoneni, malawian,tanzaninian nabesintwini njengoba umfowethu eshilo ngaphezulu abangabakoMoyo.Ngokubona kwami sonke siyavumelana noMntongenakudla ukuthi originally its from Shonas which makes you Moyo guys no-less Ndebele as some of you dont even know isiShona.In short ngithi uMoyo wakoMthwakazi nguMthwakazian finish and klaar. Welcome back Shamase

Uqedile baba.

Its just that some of us are not gifted or is it cursed, of foul speech njengoMntongenakudla. Kahle kahle we are not saying anything different but how we put it indicate the shallowness of the dynamics of nation building.

AmaNdebele akoMthwakazi include but not limited to the following,

Amazulu,
Amakhumalo,
Abesuthu
Amapedi,
Abelozwi,
Amavenda,
Amakhalanga.

You can not refuse these people the right to their ancestoral origins, but when it comes to National issues, NgamaNdebele. Kahle kahle you can not refuse them the right yokuKhonza uMbuso wesishoneni if they so wish.

Like I said in my earlier post, what defines you is your language, culture and religion.

Sabona we Mthwakazi omuhle, ngithole ukuthi usemoyeni ngathi kahle ngikubingelele. Phila ukhokhobe.

I feel I've got a good enough idea about the possible origins zakwaMoyo ukhona ongabe efuna ukuqcizelela kumbe afake umbono otshiyeneyo (kuloka Mnto lo Zwangs) about the possible origins of isibongo sakoSibanda? I'll take silence from the forumites as assent to the above gentlemen's assertions or like myself you are not wiser on the subject.

Ngiyabonga

Bafowethu.

Ngincindezele:
________________________________________________________________________________
Another point of correction. The number 8 ngesiZulu esiqondile is: isishiyagalombili and not ISIBHOZO as you allege. Your allegation is devoid of truth and futhi izodukisa abantu, bafunde isiZulu sakho esibheke eceleni. Isibhozo yigama lesiXhosa baba.
________________________________________________________________________________

Mfana ngizakuhlaba ekhaleni - uthi wena ISIBHOZO akusiso sizulu?????? Nama, etshwa, ekhaleni. Thatha i "DICTIONARY" yesizulu, elotshwe ngu DOKE, SIKAKANA, lo VILAKAZI. Uphenduke uzongitshela kumbe akusiso siZULU ukuthi ISIBHOZO.

Ngikuphinde njalo elihlweni, nama. Isixhosa laso yisiNguni. Njengoba iSsiSwati laso kuyisinguni. Uzathola ukuthi akhona amabala asetshenziswa kundimi zonke lezi esiSwatini/Zulu/Xhosa/Ndebele/Tshangane. UPHINDE UTHOLE UKUTHI ELINYE IBALA ELIFANA LOSIBHOZO LISETSHENZISWA KAKHULU NGOMUNYE UMHLOBO WESINGUNI KULEMINYE IMIHLOBO. LOKHO KUYABE KUNGATSHO UKUTHI ALISEKHO ESI ZULWINI NXA LISETSHENZISWA NGABADALA ONTANGA ABAFANA lawe MNTO'NGELA BENGALAZI.

Isizulu sami siqondile sibili ngoba UGOGO ozala UBABA NguMaGumede. Esaphila wayehlala esithi - "Yithi imihlobo yawo Tshaka". Angisiphumputhi.

Ngaphandle kweSiNguni, laso isiZULU silama "Dialect". Abasempangeni bathonywe yizizwe zesiSwati balamanye amabala ongeke uwathole kulabo abase Natal, kumbe kulabo abaseNkayi abathonyelwe ulimi yisiKalanga. Kodwa bonke nje BAKHULUMA ISIZULU in their different dialects. Ungathi wena esakho yiso sodwa isizulu.

HHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Elamani?????

Li Zwangendaba.

HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Elamani.

From the look of things there are so many bleeding hearts out there which need some kind of healing. Asazi ukuthi kungenziwani ukuze izizwe ngokwehlukana kwazo zihlale phansi zikhulumisane zikhiphe okuse zinhliziyweni zazo (FACE TO FACE DEBATES). Lapha sesimane silwe nje ngento engekho akusiolo cala ukuba yiwuphi umhlobo. Yinto esibulele ilizwe likaMthwakazi ukucosana ngohlanga. Iqembu elibusayo okwamanje lalicabanga ukuthi lixhasa umhlobo othile ngokucindezela eminye imihlobo, khangela manje ukuthi kwenzakalani. It's a hell of confusion that is currently happening in Zimbabwe which can only be saved by people who understand that no tribe is superior than the other. Kufana lokuthi uhleke omunye ngoba umfitshane okweqile, okusalayo akazenzanga lowo muntu. Who are we to judge one another, it's only God who can do that.Why worry we all come from apes which look more ugly than any other living human being today.Let us do away with Hatephobia and be objective about the subject. Next time bengingajabula nxa singaya sidinge ukuthi ONdlovu labo Mahlangu bona bavela ngaphi. Ngitsho njengoba kukhona owake wangihlebela uthi bonke abalezibongo ezibizwa ngenyamazana akusimaNdebele. eg Ndlovu, Ntini, Sibanda, Mpofu, Nkomo, Mbuzi, Nja etc.

Zwangendaba

Wena waphakade!
Wena wekunene!
Uyibinda wena wendlovu!!


Lahlaba lagxamalaza ithole laseMtubatuba! Usuphakathi kwazo ke manje mfoka Shamase! Kwaze kwamnandi ukuba yimina! Nakhona.

Igama ISIBHOZO as listed in Isichazimazwi Sanamuhla Nangomuso by C.L Sibusiso Nyembezi (inkwali yenkosi, uShamase wangempela, uNdonga, uMtubatuba kaSomkhele, uVeyane, uMpangazitha, uMashukumbela, uMkhwanazi woqobo)says, in brackets: Xhosa. This implies ukuthi yebo singali sebenzisa kolukaMageba (sengisho isiZulu phela), kepha lona ngokwendabuko, elakwa Xhosa.

Back to the Moyo topic. I still reiterate ukuthi oMoyo ngamaShona ngokwendabuko. This is the unequivocal truth. Kunjalo nje, angisho lokhu ngoba ngeya indlu yakwaMoyo. Cha. Iqiniso yiqiniso. Libaba linjalo. But in this case angiboni ukubaba kwalo ngoba being of Shona origin does not demean the Moyos. Baseyindlu kaMzilikazi, under amaHole. Lokhu ngeke kuze kushintshe, just like imvelaphi yabo ebuShoneni izohlala imi njalo kude kube phakade. Angikhathali noma labo abakhulelwa wukuthukuthela bengathini. Maba futheke, bagcwale ulaka, kepha uMoyo wohlala eqhamuka ebuShona - simhlonipha, simamkela ngalokhu ayikhona!

uMoyo kumele akhuzwe (besesiqhubeka ngengxoxo)

Uthi uMoyo "Iqembu elibusayo okwamanje lalicabanga ukuthi lixhasa umhlobo othile ngokucindezela eminye imihlobo, khangela manje ukuthi kwenzakalani". Uyaphi Moyo ngalo umugca?

Bengicabanga ukuthi usubonile Moyo ukuthi yimitsho efana laleyi (reckless statements) edala ukungazwisisani (i-confusion that you talk about), but what do you do? You go back and do exactly the same thing! What's up Moyo? I really think that qualified statements can help this (and any other) discussion where not one contributor can claim to be the master of the subject (from what I gather so far).

Ungizwe kahle Moyo. Angilwi. Lami ngidinga ukwazi ngcono njengathi sonke. Nxa usithi 'iqembu elibusayo okwamanje' utsho liphi, njalo lixhasa liphi? And yiphi i-confusion edaleke ngaleyo ndlela?. Ungasiza kakhulu Moyo nxa ungazama ukuthi i-clarity ikukhokhele enkulumeni zakho, lokhu kungasiza abanengi abadinga iqiniso elimsulwa.

Mina ngokwami ngicabanga (and I don't claim to be a master of this subject) ukuthi okaMatshobana, a master politician and a military genius all in one, wayefuna ukwakha isizwe (i-nation building phela) through i-coercion lapho kwakuyikufuna kwakhe ukuthi lalabo abangasibeNguni bazizwe besekhaya nxa bekuMthwakazi, (a colation of the different tribes, including the captured Shona,) hence the different tribes that make up the Ndebele nation that has been in existence since the mid-to-late 19th century. But nation -building is another subject for another day. However, it does inform the fact that we all come from different other tribes and possible nations, as in the case of the Shona, (or Lozwi, or Rozwi, or Tapa, [Jesus son of Mary!!!] or whatever you want to call it, and trust me, it made no big difference to the Ndebele nation then, it sure makes no difference now). We all know that once one finds oneself in the midst of a different nation from the one that defines them, they either revolt (in different ways) or are absorbed (through assimilation, naturalization or otherwise). KoMthwakazi, the later was the best (and wise option).

Now, iShona liShona liShona. iTswana liTswana liTswana. Ngokunjalo, uKhumalo nguKhumalo nguKhumalo. Bonke laba bakhona koMthwakazi. Kodwa bakhona futhi lalapho bedabuka khona. Ama-processes e-assimilation le-naturalization ayazitshintsha izindlela abantu abazibonga ngazo (a reflection of the new environments that people move to). This is a basic fact of life. Nxa abantu bengasazazi ukuthi babuyaphi, that could be a tragedy on thier part, but that could also reflect a successful process of naturalization. If ukoMthwakazi kodwa usakhumbula lapho odabuka khona, good for you! sesingabhala amabhuku lamabhuku ngokuthi usobani losobani babuyaphi, kodwa umuntu lomuntu otshisekileyo ngomdabu wakhe uyazazi lapho abuya khona. Ongazange wafuna ukwazi, lapho lami kangazi.

Ekuyigobeni, I don't believe ukuthi lokhu kumele kube yi-primary pre-occupation of the Mthwakazi collective. We all know ukuthi a number of different tribes make up the Ndebele nation. There are more seroius and pressing threats to our Mthwakazi nation-hood, such as the fact that we might soon find ourselves a nation that only exist in the diaspora, if we don't already.

Would it not be better if singadla amathambo engqondo ngokuthi senze njani ukuze singafi siphele sithi du, njengesizwe sikaMthwakazi?

zwanini madoda uma uliShona uliShona the same way u Arthur Mafokate wathi uma uyinja ,uyinja.

Amashona have done a lot of damage to Zimbabwe and anyone who has a drop of Shona BLOOD IN HIS VEINS SHOULD HANG HIS HEAD IN SHAME.

OKUSALAYO WE CAN`T INFLUENCE OUR HISTORY BUT WE CAN SHAPE OUR FUTURE vuka mthwakazi!!!

People need to be careful, restraint is needed at times. Let us not shout at each other. Gone are the days when the Khumalos used to be the first class citizens in Mthwakazi, those days will never come back again, now we are all equal, a Moyo can be our leader, or anyone else who used to be in the lowest of social classes in Mthwakazi.

Zihlobo zami, akelitshele mina ukuthi sibangani? Mina angisazwisisi, kambe singasukela umfoka Moyo simbulale sithi litshona yena engasazi ngitsho lakanci? Into esemqoka yikuthi asivumeni ukuthi Moyo was originally a Shona then as the world revolved thats changed. Banqotshwa ngokaMatshobana wabathumba babayingxene yesizwe sethu samaNdebele. BangaboMthwakazian as much as i am mina WakwaMahlangu, Dube , Khumalo.I think we are missing the point ubafo lona ubefuna ukwazi ngendabuko (origin)yabakoMoyo ayi ukuthi bayini bona namhlanje.Tell me, how many Phiris do we have in our midst? are they still nyanjas, chewas or they are now part of Mthwakazi? Ziningi kabi ingane zakoPhiri esizaziyo abangakaze balubade ngakubo eMalawi and abasazi isinyanja bashaya isiNdebele qho nabo bazithi bangamaNdebele ikhona into embi ngalokho?Umfowethu uthe useyitholile impendulo asidluleleni phambili sibhekeni eminye imbuzo efana nale ebuzwe ngumfoka Moyo (mageza nemukaka- ungangibulali Moyo ngiyayidlalela nje)

Lets stop name calling and accuse our brothers of what they are not.Most of Moyo guys are fighting for the Mthwaklazian cause and they are very proud to be a Mthwakazian just like you and i, they are our brothers they are part of Mthwakazi. In South Africa how many police officers are descendents are Zimbabweans? But they arrest and deport us now and again cause they call themselves Zuluz Pedis,Xhosas and all that yet ngo Moyo, Ndlovu, Dube basekhaya.If you cant beat them join them, imihlobo iyaihlangana kancane kancane thats why sinamaColoureds and all that.

Ngiyabonga ngiqondiseni mangiphuma endleleni.

awudingi kuqondiswa Ndebele p.uyishaye khaleni.

indaba inje umuntu uyazazela lapho avela khona abanye bethu sivelela ethonotha sithi emoyo etalawunda chilandu ntapa yisishona na

Your assertion that everyone with a so called animal surname is a hole is simply not true. There are people who's ancestors have never smelt your country before and have these surnames here in SA oMpofu, mainly eastern cape and southern KZN (meaning light-skinned or poor!) Nkomo (too many to mention in Mhlabuyalingana KZN) Ndlovu (Gatsheni is a Hole! my foot!) Dube, Langalibalele (Same as Gatsheni) I, m not sure what you are smoking but just get your little tribalistic mind out of the Zulu nation as I understand the owner of this argument is not even Zulu himself if we want to be harsh now.

Okusalayo nyandeni uyilokho oyikhona ngingeke nagakutshintsha lokho. What tribalism are you talking about, yes Im tribalist if you talk in terms one who studies tribes. But you will be completely wrong if you think I judge people by the tribes they come from. My philosophy is simple and clear "I judge an indidual by the content of his/her mind not by his/her ancestral background because as it is in this world you like it or not no one can claim to be a pure certian tribe. This is just a debate to find out on how far people can remember where they come from not to creat battle lines lines against each other. If you don't have an idea to what I say leave it to those who might have an idea. Kufuze wazi ukuthi ungeke wazi zonke izinto ezikulom hlaba. Okunye okufuze ukwazi yikuthi angibhemi, angizange ngabhema lasekuqaleni njalo angisoze ngafa ngabhema mkhula, siyezwana. Funda ukuhlonipha abantu, kuhle ukuhloniphana siyezwana !!

Moyo
Ngoba bayakuthelela ungashayi onke okhona. I am actually supporting you by showing that the so called identifier of so called amahole is meanigless as there are multitudes of Zulu clans with the very surnames that are bandied about here as those of a certain group which is Lower than Zulus. Just read my mail again and you will see that I am not talking about you. Rather about someone else who started this hole nonsense

nonsense heh? now, why do i like that?

Mkhwananzi weShamus, uyaphila mnakwethu. Ngiyezwa lokhe bekhala ngawe kulesisigingu, hk hk hk.

Ekuqoqeni isizwe sika Mthwakazi UMzilikazi ka Matshobane uzihlanganisile izizwe ezehlukeneyo.AmaNguni, AbeNhla kanye lawo amaHole. Bonke bebebantubanye ngaphansi kuka Mzilikazi.Ungakhangela abalobi bolimi lwesi Ndebele inengi labo ngama Hole impela!Okuqakathekileyo yikuthi sonke siyisizwe sika Mthwakazi!!! Asimanyane, mazinyane eSilo!!!

Spade omnyama

abanjengobani Spade omnyama? Njalo balobe ziphi izingwalo?

Nampa abanye bakhona Vunguza-Ndabezinhle Sigogo, Caanaan Mkhethwa Moyo, Felix F. Moyo, Mayford Sibanda,Galen Sibanda, Eunice Sande, N.M. Ncube, Isaac Mpofu,Phamba Mpofu, Tommy Matshakayila Ndlovu, Bekithemba Sodindo Ncube.Izibongo lezi ayisizo zesiNgunini, wethu, kodwa ngubani ongalandula ukuthi la ngama Ndebele qho?

Ngiyakuzwa Spade Omnyama kodwa how confident are you ukuthi abantu obabethayo, with the possible exception of oMoyo bobabili, ngamahole as we have come to understand the term within the structure of the Mthwakazi state?

Qoboshani bantu bakithi. uNdlovu uGatsheni lihole? Amanguni akwaNdlovu kwaZulu baholelwa ubani? uMxhosa kaMpofu yena ke? I think people are confusing themselves here. This issue of animal surnames just doesnt make sense. In fact mpofu means light skinned in Xhosa and poor in Zulu. Its origionaly not an "animal surname" Those with the shona version may be animals but not abakwamthwakazi as I understand it!

Nyandeni

Don't confuse issues here. Ndlovu is not even of Zulu origins. I covered this topic some time back ngabo 2004/2005.

Nonetheless, I'll take my time to re-explain. UNdlovu lona esimbona la kwelikaMthaniya (ie KwaZulu) ebizwa ngoGatsheni, boya benyathi, buya songwa buya sombuluka, Mthiyane etc, is not of Zulu origins. He is of Sotho extraction. Uqale engu Tlou or Motloung, kwase eba nguNdlovu ngokufuduka kwakhe engena KwelikaMthaniya. That's the Ndlovu loyo esimaziyo thina endlini yakwethu KwaZulu.

Be that as it may, indlovu yinyamazane egcwele yonk' indawo yase Afrika. As such, okuyi zizwana konkana kuthathe igama lale nyamazane, kwayenza isibongo sakho. To that extent kunabo Ndou KwaVenda (ngamaHole!), Ndlovu ebuKalanga (ngamaHole!), Zhou ebuShona, Njovu kumaZambezi (ngamaHole!), kunye nokunye okungoNdlovu enginge kuqede kwizizwana zonkana umhlaba ungaka! All these stripes of Ndlovus are not Gatsheni, Boya benyathi, Mthiyane! Never. They are not Zulu, were never Zulu & will never be. If they refer themselves as Gatsheni, bathukuthelisa izinyanya zakwaGatsheni. As such, bayowelwa ngumshipoti, umkhokha, ukhriphula webhadi! Mabakhonze izinyanya zakubo zangempela - sengisho amagidel' endlini ansondo!

Kunjalo nakuMpofu. OMpofu bakwaXhosa are not in any way having a common ancestor nabakwaMgodoyi. Never. AbakwaMgodoyi bazibiza oMpofu ngenyamazane, impofu, yet kwaXhosa bazibiza ngobumpofu, umbala wento (colour). It must be clear as well ukuthi oMpofu bakwaMgodoyi are of Shona extraction. Akekho umuntu wakwaMpofu kwaMgodoyi oqhamuke kwaNguni. The ones abangamaNdebele njengamanje, ngamaHole 9 9! They were assimilated ngokaMntungwa, ebathathe kubo ebuShona, baba ngamaHole!

Sengishilo mina wakwaNdonga, uShamase, inkwali yenkosi yangale, ngaphesheya koThukela. Ngeke ngashintsha ngikhefuze amanga ukuze ngithandeke emphakathini. Mina ngobheka phambili, ngime ngeqiniso kude kuyovalwa!

AbakwaXhosa bathi: ukuqala kobulumko, kukoyika uJehova. M'na ndohlala ndimoyika!

Mntongenakudla,

Wena wakwa Ndonga, inkwali yenkosi yangale, ngaphesheya ko Thukela ake utsho: Nxa sisithi isizwe sika Mthwakazi siyabe sisitshoni?

IF YOU DONT KNOW FROM WHERE YOU CAME THEN YOU ARE DOOMED TO SHAME....lets be careful BY NOT shouting our lungs out and bleating louder than goats can.....If we talk of origins or the original AmaZulu then a lot of the current peoples known as AmaZulu wont qualify to be BUT they would qualify being Ngunis..The current peoples who are now known as AmaZulu are just part of defeated Nguni clanlets that were incorporated under King Shaka's clanlet called the Zulu household, Shaka had a vision of building a mighty-massive Nguni dominated kingdom under his clanlet named after his great-great-great grandfather Zulu as was the case in those days to name a clan after the head of the household.

Otherwise originally,a lot of the present AmaZulu surnames would fall under then Nguni clanlets like Mthethwa clan, Lilangeni clan,Dube clan,Khumalo clan,Qwabe clan to name just a few of many...and you would find that to this present day these Amakhosi of different Nguni clanlets still exist and they give reverence to Isilo saMakhosi uZwelithini though of late its been rumoured that some wanted to be regarded equal to the current Zulu King...sounding like a rebellion.
Many current Zulu surnames are not originally Zulu(of Zulu clanlet) but if you say they are Nguni in origin then yes you are closer to the truth.... A lot the English have origins from the balkan region but they are called English now just like many white Americans have European origins but they identify themselves as Americans and associate as different from their origins...over time clans evolve some get annihilated and a new breed emerges...therefore a present Ndlovu who is uMZulu is not the same with a Tlou of origin in trait,behaviour and values.this can be seen in Matabeleland how the Zulu accent and language became diluted/constipated and a subculture imaged lucky enough not all was lost thus some people in Matabeleland who have Nguni connection down South can still be able to establish their... INKABA.

At the end of day you are what you are...no one can take away your geneoalogical heritage ...search your history it will show...let no one fool you... KUYABONGEKA BAKWETHU...NIBE NEMPELASONTO ENOBUMNANDI--NDI.

Spade omnyama / Halavu elimpisholo!

Uyihalavu langempela.

Mnumzane, angiboni neze ukuthi umbuzo wakho lona uxhumana kanjani nezimvo zami ezi ngenhla. Nokho, mina nkwali yenkosi, uSomkhele wangale, ngaphesheya koThukela, uNdong' omnyama - omhlophe ngenhliziyo, ngokuphendula. Ngokuthatha ngikubeke esikoleni somlando - phecelezi, I'll quickly put you in a history class.

Lalela ke wena ndodamfino. Isizwe senu lesi sakwaMthwakazi yingxubevange yezinhlanga ezihlukile. Ngamafuphi ngingathi kunezi nhlanga lezi: abendlu kaMageba, abeza nokaMntungwa kaMbulazi ephuma nabo kweseLembe. Laba ke babizwa abeZansi. Ebese kuba nokuyi zizwana okaMntungwa akucosha endleleni. Lapha ngisho abeSuthu nabeTswana. Labo ke babizwa abeNhla.

Bese kuba noquqaba lolu oluseceleni, olubizwa amaHole. Lezi yizithuluba (uthuli lwezwe!) okaMntungwa azicoshe wazifaka kwisizwe sakhe, ezithathe kwizizwana zendabuko yalendawo yenu namhlanje ebizwa ngeZimbabwe. Okusemqoka wukuthi lezi zizwana bezi dabuka ebuShona, zikhonza amagidelandlini.

Kuthe ngomusa wakhe okaMntungwa, wakuthatha okuyizi thuluba lokhu, kwakhosela ngaphansi kwamaphiko akhe, kwaba yingxenye yesizwe sakhe samaNdebele. Namhlanje nakhu okuwuthuli lwezwe ngobuningi bakho, kumila izimpondo kuba ngama vukana, kudlalel' emakhand' ethu, kuzam' ukuthi distort i-history. Cha ngeke - anga vuk' ame ngezinyawo okaMbulazi! Ngifung' amaNkwali.

Engethemba kuyacaca, nokho still ngise ngakaboni i-relevance yombuzo wakho lona.

Bhabhayi!


Shamase Nkwali yenkosi
uNdong' omkhulu - uMashukumbela, umakhwelintaba nyova!
uShamase wangale ngaphesheya koThukela

Muntongenakudla,

Ngiyezwa njalo ngiyabonga wena Shamase wangempela! Mqwashisi, impohlo engela nkinga!

Umcijo owodwa nje-kungesiwona ama Hole lawa isizwe sika Mthwakazi would not be as powerful as it is today!

NgiliHole wethu, but l am very proud to be associated with the nation of uMthwakazi.

Kulomehluko phakathi kwethu abaka Mthwakazi labakwaZulu.Thina sesilolimi lwethu olwehlukeneyo( isiNdebele) njalo amasiko ethu asehlukene.

Philisisa Shamase wangempela, umqondo wakho ubanzi!

Halavu elimpisholo

Ngikuzwa nginga dakwanga. Ngivele nginga wathi mbibi amankwebevu.

Well, niyi majority yes. Lokhu akuphikiswa. Ngokunjalo, kusafanele nivume iqiniso lokuthi ningama Hole, izithuluba, uthuli lwezwe! Nani yileyo nto, niyi leyo nto, nohlala niyi leyo nto kude kuyovalwa. Lokhu akukona ukuthi mina kaShamase ngiya neya okanye nginenzela phansi. Cha. Leli yiqiniso lange mpela elinge phikiswe. Iqiniso elimsulwa eliqhatha (ukuxabanisa) abantu ngoba uma ukhuluma iqiniso, unyamanambana kubantu. Abantu sebakhonza amanga too much.

Coming to amasiko. Well, I concede ukuthi nina maHole nina masiko enu wesiNdebele, njalo lawo masiko ahluke njenga manzi namafutha kulawo awa KwaZulu. After all you have no iota of a common denominator noMageba - finish n klaar. Uzokhumbula wena Halavu ukuthi nina maHole nilahle ama original siko wenu asebu Shona, nathi adopt amasha wesiNdebele upon assimilation into Mntungwa's kingdom. That's undisputed.

However, I will die fighting uma ngabe wena uthi mina Nkwali yenkosi ngine siko elifana nelakho elamaNdebele. Cha bhuti mina ngeke - umkhulu wami uNkotheni angavuk' ethuneni ahambe ngezinyawo! Mina mfowethu, izinyanya zakithi kwaShamase zithethwa ngesiko laseZansi, la inkaba yasala khona. Umsamo wakwethu uthethwa isiZulu - nothing more, nothing less. Thina bakwaNdonga siwumhlobo othandek' enkosini, asikwazi ukuhamba sicosha (ukudobha bhuti) amasiko wezizwe zonkana umhlaba ungaka. Asikwazi ukubiza amakhosi akithi ngesiko lasemzini!Asikwazi ukwenzela phansi abakithi ngokugidela endlini, sibahlanganisa nezinyanya zasebu Kalanga, ebuVenda noma ebuZambezi. Ngamabhadi lawo. Amashwa. Umkhokha. Umshipoti. Unomnganga. Ukhriphula webhadi!

Sengishilo mina wundlu leSilo saseMtubatuba. Mina Ndong' omkhulu, uSomkhele, uMpangazitha, uShamase, uVeyane wangale, ngaphesheya koThukela.

Bhabhayi.

Shamase Nkwali yenkosi

Some people delight in dividing the Mthwakazi nation with their unfounded statements paraded as biblical truths. Some people are gifted in nation building while some are retrogressive and destructive. The Mthwakazi nation has evolved from what it used to be, now it is a modern and united nation. The caste system is now a thing of the past. There is noe Hole, no mzansi or abaSenhla, we are now all equal as the citizens of Mthwakazi nation.
We are tired of this man who by now sounds like an old record with a scratch, he has been saying this nonsense since 2005 or there about. He doesn't learn. He is too proud for nothing. In short if he continues in this line of madness we will be forced to remind him of who he actually is. Let him dare continue.

Bafowethu.

Shamase. Nkwali yeNkosi. Ngizaqala ngokukuceba emajaheni ngoba ufuna ukungitshaya ngiphansi.

Ngihlale e ZAMBIA 4 years baba, ngabhoda ISIZWE esikhulu sabelozwi (varient BAROTSE). Njalo ukuthi Barotse bayazitsho bona, kababizwa ngomunye umuntu njalo. Isibongo esithi SHAMASE sikhona kubo lamhlanje ngikhuluma kanje. Uzidingele wedwa. Isibongo esithi MOYO balaso njalo. Kodwa laba bantu abazange kababe nga MaShona. Njalo labo abango SHAMASE kubo abazange kababe ngama Zulu. YIKHO O SHAMASE BALOBUHLOBO LABO MOYO. Since we are all BANTU.

Njengoba amazulu akhiwa ngokuyiZIZWENYANA (in your own words), can I conclude that oSHAMASE bebengamaLOZWI bengakathunjwa ngu ZULU na? Balazo njalo izibongo ezithiwa ZULU laba BALOZWI (varient BAROTSE). The Zambian Army Commander during our War against the Rhodesian Terrorists was called GREY ZULU. He descends not from the ZULU Tribe, but from the ZULU clanlets ezasala emuva kusuka UMALANDELA eLuwangwa esiza phansi eMzansi.

NXA ISIZULU OSIKHULUMA LAPHA KUYISO ESEMPELA, ASEHLUKANANGA KE LESISHONA. MHLAWUMBE YIWO AMA SHONA CLANLETS AWATHUNJWA NGU MALANDELA NGOBA LAYE WEDLULA ELIZWENI LAMASHONA ESIYA EZANSI.

Ngincindezele.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Lalela ke wena ndodamfino. Isizwe senu lesi sakwaMthwakazi yingxubevange yezinhlanga ezihlukile. (NGAMAFUPI) ["my own capitals"] ngingathi kunezi nhlanga lezi: abendlu kaMageba, abeza nokaMntungwa kaMbulazi ephuma nabo kweseLembe. Laba ke babizwa abeZansi. Ebese kuba nokuyi zizwana okaMntungwa akucosha endleleni. Lapha ngisho abeSuthu nabeTswana. Labo ke babizwa abeNhla.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

LANGESISHONA AMAFUPI KUTSHO "IN SHORT". YIKHO AMAZULU ACORDING TO YOU NGAMA SHONA. INGANI "the mouse" NGESIHONA BATHI MBEBA AMAZULU LITHI MBIBA.

Ngiyihlolisisile i DICTIONARY yami yesizulu. Angikubonanga kulotshiwe ukuthi ISIBHOZO is Xhosa. I Dictionary ithi yona "ZULU".

Your posting of July 13 2007 at 08:40 am is clear historically. You explain well that SOMEONE originates a society and everyone else is INCORPORATED. U ZULU ka BHEKIZIZWE was himself from the MAMBO Clanlets. He ORIGINATED his ZULU tribe ecatshile ezintabeni esesaba umfowabo uQWABE (varient QHWABE). His tribe grew because he incorporated OKUYIZITHULUBA lama HOLE ayewehlula. He grew so big waze wehlula uQWABE. OKUYIZITHULUBA lokhu yikho okwasekuzibiza AMAZULU. Lalamhlalokhu kungama ZULU. YIKHO ULIMI LWAKHO OLUFANA LESISHONA LULOKHU LUSAPHILA PHAKATHI KWASO ISIZULU. Mhlawumbe labo abako Shamase babuthwa NJENGATHI SONKE namhlanje bayazigqaja ngobuzulu. Lathi abaka NGWANE sabuthwa ngu MALANDELA lamhlanje siyazigqaja ngobuNGUNI. Kodwa asisoze sizithi singamaZULU. Ngoba asisiwo amaZULU.

Yikho abakaMthwakazi labo kabazigqaje ngokuba nguMthwakazi.

Ubuye uthi akula mpofu okwa Mthwakazi ongasilo Shona? Wena. Ngizakunqanda mfowethu. Ngizithwele SHAMASE induku zami. KANTI INDUNA ZAMAXHOSA EZEHLULWA NGU MZILIKAZI ZABUTHWA LABANTU BAZO ABANYE BABO BENGO MPOFU, SEBEPHIKWA NJANI UKUTHI YIMIZANSI?

Ngizabuya Historicaly ngabendlu ka MOYO engiyaziyo mina, engizalwa kuyo ngogogo ka mama wami. next time.

Li Zwangendaba.