Njengenhliziyo bafo, kodwa thina sithwele kanzima

What i like about this passage is we can look at it in its fullness. Firstly do we agree that jesus had to die also for the sins of all the saved in the Old Testament. So he is approaching pay day. I will restrain to each thought so we all move together

Ok my brothers maybe it seems like I have hit a dead end let me rephrase my thoughts. Could we please look at this verse


1Ki 20:42 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of [thy] hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.

Has the Good Lord appointed a human being to utter destruction. Is this true? please explain.

welly

thanks to hear from you oncemore my brother, may the Good Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

nxa ngikuzwa kahle, you are asking that since i said the bible teaches that man was not created for doom, neither does God creat/ed anyone for destruction, how come then this man in 1Ks 20:42 the Lord Himself says He appointed him for utter destruction.

Let's try to identify the players.

Who was that man?, Who was talking and talking to whom? on what occasion?, why was he appointed to utter destruction by God?

1.That man appointed to utter destruction was the defiant king of Syria, Ben-hadad.

2.Elijah was talking to king Ahab of Israel, Samaria as the capital.

3.This was soon after the second defeat of Syria by Israel at the plain of Aphek. this was an acted oracle, which was a dramatised message by the prophets, for example when Jeremiah wore a yoke, and Isaiah walked to and fro naked, etc. in this case Elijah, covered his face and told Ahab the story of how he was left in charge of a p.o.w and he escaped, and Ahab passed the judgment that Elijah was at fault, thus when that verse was said by the prophet to Ahab, that he was supposed to kill Ben-hadad because the Lord had appointed him thus, and he decided to spare him therefore Ben-hadad's fate was now Ahab's.

why was he appointed to destruction?, he defied the armies of the Lord, he terrorised Israel even though Ahab had submitted to him, above all he and his generals defied the Lord and called Him isithixo samaqaqa( god of hills), and planned to defeat Israel by the plain of Aphek. This was the Lord's battle, Ahab knew he was supposed to vanquish the lawless man, however Ahab chose to take matters into his hands and spared him, and play a good guy.

the point is, the Lord does not pronounce destruction before willful, conscious and purposeful disobedience or defiance. and true if you are willing and obedient you shall eat the good fruits of the land says the Lord in Isaiah.

ngiyethemba this makes sense, if not say so brother, and continue to bear in mind that it's not about us but Jesus and His word.

Amen.

May the Grace Love and fellowship of the lord be with you my brother Emz. Thank you for your response. From it I gather you conquer to the fact that The Good lord does damn certain individuals to eternal hell. I hear your reasoning but I neither nor does anyone say or think it is without cause the Good lord sends anyone to hell. However before i continue this investigation please can you comment on this verse.



Isa 46:3 ¶ Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Isa 46:4 And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver

[you].

welly

ngibingelele njalo.

as i enjoy discussing The Word with you my brother, but to be frank, i'm very uneasy dealing with verses in isolation, this tendency does not only limit the Word, but gives inaccurate conclusions. i strongly believe each verse is there for a particular reason(s), and understanding the bible is asking the LORD to unveil or unmask that reason, either for instruction, correction or reproof in righteousness.

to comment on the above verses i'll refer to the following chapter:

The Punishment of Samaria
8 The Lord sent a word against Jacob,
And it has fallen on Israel.
9 All the people will know—
Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria—
Who say in pride and arrogance of heart:
10 “ The bricks have fallen down,
But we will rebuild with hewn stones;
The sycamores are cut down,
But we will replace them with cedars.”
11 Therefore the LORD shall set up
The adversaries of Rezin against him,
And spur his enemies on,
12 The Syrians before and the Philistines behind;
And they shall devour Israel with an open mouth.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.
13 For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them,
Nor do they seek the LORD of hosts.
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel,
Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 The elder and honorable, he is the head;
The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err,
And those who are led by them are destroyed.
17 Therefore the Lord will have no joy in their young men,
Nor have mercy on their fatherless and widows;
For everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer,
And every mouth speaks folly.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.
18 For wickedness burns as the fire;
It shall devour the briers and thorns,
And kindle in the thickets of the forest;
They shall mount up like rising smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts
The land is burned up,
And the people shall be as fuel for the fire;
No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand
And be hungry;
He shall devour on the left hand
And not be satisfied;
Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
21 Manasseh shall devour Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasseh;
Together they shall be against Judah.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.


sekungathi uNkulunkulu uyaziphikisa lapha. esinye isibonelo, wathi wena akula muntu ongaqondisa kumbe aphikise intando kaNkulunkulu, kanti njalo leNkosi iyatsho ithi ayiguquku. uthini ngalamavesi?

Ex 32:9-149

And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his

Emz my brother Grace to you in Christ,

May all the praise and Glory of his name go on unto everlasting.
Now my brother you seem to be jumping the gun and bringing in yet again more things than need be at the moment. I have been clear from the onset that It is my fervent prayer to demonstrate to you that God does in fact PREDESTINATE ALL THINGS. Even the very things the saved will be doing in eternity and the very torments of the unsaved are and have been PREDESTINATED by God himself in its entirty.

So God repenting of the evil he would justly pour out on sinners he PREDESTINATED that fact from all eternity aswell as his will not to repent of the evil he shall pour out onto sinners.

The amazing thing ever which no one can explain fully is how God even can take a sinner and give him the riches in Christ because there isnt a single creature wothy of such, even the unfallen angels are not worthy of eternal life.

The reason anyone ever does make it to heaven fully and unequivocally lies on God himself. He has PREDESTINATED all those creatures that will receive eternal life.

God has decreed all things concerning eternal destinies of all creatures. God has decreed all temporal things concerning the lives of his creatures in his Sovereign PREDESTINARY perogative.

All Gods actions are immutable and cannot change now or ever. What will be will be. The future is definite it is not capricious thats why prophescy works because God has already set the bounds in place.

This teaching should be a source of Joy and elation to all believers and well incidentally it is also a source of dread for the REPROBATES them appointed by God to destruction.

God has enough reasons to destroy all he chooses to destroy. The only reason there is why he doesnt destroy those whom he chooses to give eternal life to sets squarely on himself.

The future is definite at every moment, what is happening was determined to be thus from eternity.

So my brother Emz dont panic, look at the evidence and behold what great power belongs to the Lord. All creation will marvel and wail at his awsome prescence. The elect shall rejoice and the reprobates will shudder and tremble and they shall all receive eternal torment and wrath in the lake of fire.

I.-When love is predicated of God, we do not mean that He is possessed of it as a passion or affection. In us it is such, but if, considered in that sense, it should be ascribed to the Deity, it would be utterly subversive of the simplicity, perfection and independency of His being. Love, therefore, when attributed to Him, signifies-

(1) His eternal benevolence, i.e., His everlasting will, purpose and determination to deliver, bless and save His people. Of this, no good works wrought by them are in any sense the cause. Neither are even the merits of Christ Himself to be considered as any way moving or exciting this good will of God to His elect, since the gift of Christ, to be their Mediator and Redeemer, is itself an effect of this free and eternal favour borne to them by God the Father (John iii. 16). His love towards them arises merely from "the good pleasure of His own will," without the least regard to anything ad extra or out of Himself.

(2) The term implies complacency, delight and approbation. With this love God cannot love even His elect as considered in themselves, because in that view they are guilty, polluted sinners, but they were, from all eternity, objects of it, as they stood united to Christ and partakers of His righteousness.

(3) Love implies actual beneficence, which, properly speaking, is nothing else than the effect or accomplishment of the other two: those are the cause of this. This actual beneficence respects all blessings, whether of a temporal, spiritual or eternal nature. Temporal good things are indeed indiscriminately bestowed in a greater or less degree on all, whether elect or reprobate, but they are given in a covenant way and as blessings to the elect only, to whom also the other benefits respecting grace and glory are peculiar. And this love of beneficence, no less than that of benevolence and complacency, is absolutely free, and irrespective of any worthiness in man.

II.-When hatred is ascribed to God, it implies (1) a negation of benevolence, or a resolution not to have mercy on such and such men, nor to endue them with any of those graces which stand connected with eternal life. So, "Esau have I hated" (Rom. ix.), i.e., "I did, from all eternity, determine within Myself not to have mercy on him." The sole cause of which awful negation is not merely the unworthiness of the persons hated, but the sovereignty and freedom of the Divine will. (2) It denotes displeasure and dislike, for sinners who are not interested in Christ cannot but be infinitely displeasing to and loathsome in the sight of eternal purity. (3) It signifies a positive will to punish and destroy the reprobate for their sins, of which will, the infliction of misery upon them hereafter, is but the necessary effect and actual execution.

III.-The term election, that so very frequently occurs in Scripture, is there taken in a fourfold sense, and most commonly signifies (1) "That eternal, sovereign, unconditional, particular and immutable act of God where He selected some from among all mankind and of every nation under heaven to be redeemed and everlastingly saved by Christ."

(2) It sometimes and more rarely signifies "that gracious and almighty act of the Divine Spirit, whereby God actually and visibly separates His elect from the world by effectual calling." This is nothing but the manifestation and partial fulfilment of the former election, and by it the objects of predestinating grace are sensibly led into the communion of saints, and visibly added to the number of God's declared professing people. Of this our Lord makes mention: "Because I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John xv. 19). Where it should seem the choice spoken of does not refer so much to God's eternal, immanent act of election as His open manifest one, whereby He powerfully and efficaciously called the disciples forth from the world of the unconverted, and quickened them from above in conversion.

welly

ngibingelele njalo, egameni leNkosi. ngiyacela pliz pliz read this posting to it's fullest and all those who may so will, i pray, sincerely i do.

well, i simply quoted Exodus 32:9-14 to show you that God is not an autocrat as some people would like to present Him, and God will never use any favouritism, every man will be given sufficient time to accept or refuse the Gospel. the prophets are/were used by the Lord to declare warning to the people so that none will have excuse on that great and dreadful day, even read Amos 3:7. if some are created for doom, those will be in heaven for sure, because before the jury their case will be the easiest one, their defense will be simply that they were created for that purpose and hence no power or authority over it. i bet my last breath, my God is faithful and Just to forgive them. on the contrary the question of the judgment is what one did with the gospel which can and can only reach man through evangelism as Jesus commissioned us to do unto all nations. what scares me is the fact that within all the world regions where predestination is still prevailing there is little or no evangelism at all, and this is detrimental to the growth of the body of Christ, cause truely, if God has His own already what's the need for evangelism?

what you "wrote" above is somewhat disturbing:
at least you should have respected your readers and referenced your work, even put it in quotations.

i know and hope you will take this as a brotherly concern not a know it all attitude.

as you would have guessed, i do spend time reading predestination before engaging it's proponants.

as a result, i'll not tire supplying the scriptures to refute predestination of some to heaven and some to hell, may be this whole engagment, seemingly between me and you, is meant for other readers who will be edified in the longrun. I strongly believe there are some who take stock of their lives and despair, especially with regards to predestination. they conclude that they are the doomed ones since nothing seems good about their lives. the Lord have Good News for those.

read

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (King James Version)

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



NATURAL/UNIVERSAL SIN

What confuses me about the proponants of predestination, is the fact that they concur to natural/universal sin through Adam as transmitted to ALL of Adam's posterity, hence naturally man is at variance with God and can not naturally seek God, hence the need for Devine intervention. to this assertion i say Amen, yiwo umfukula weVangeli lo. However, when it comes to a Universal Redeemer The Man Jesus Christ, they jump ship, they say no, now ALL means some,with regards to salvation.

What have they to say about:

Romans 5:16-20 (King James Version)

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



THE HEART OF GOD

After all these age old doctrine upon counter doctrines, one wonders where is the Heart of God about man? i know no better texts than these:

Ezekiel 33:11 (King James Version)

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

and

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version)

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


SINNING WILLFULLY AND KNOWINGLY

Moreover the proponants of predestination, teach a serious and dangerous non-biblical doctrine of "once-saved, saved-forever". this teaching is not only false but can lead a lot of us to damnation because sinning willfully and knowingly carries immediate judgment. they say once God predetermines you for glory you can now sin willy-nilly so to speak, because your sins are forgiven before you even sin, but my bible tells me that if we listen unto the Lord and walk in His path, CONFESS and FORESAKE our sins, we will be forgiven of our sins even before we confess them. to me there is a big difference between the two.

I don't know if predestination is aware of the following passage:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (King James Version)

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Therefore, my brother(s) and sisters of cause, lets read the bible not for isoteric or philosophical reasons, but for light.

Amen