PREDESTINATION

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.

1) Is this phenomenon, God's purpose or is it man's figment of imagination? Or is it just politics?

2) Did Jesus minister to the "chosen" only?

3) Why did Jesus die and why the resurrection?

4) Did God need the resurrection to complete "predestination"?

5) What is Jesus doing at present?

6) What was the significance of the healing of leprosy?

7) Who was Mary Magdalene? What was her relationship with Christ? How did the two become acquainted?

8) Who was Saul of Tarsus? What is so special about him?

9) Does God hate "sinners"?

10) What is the "Second Advent"? Why has Jesus not come back?

11) Why has God always sent His prophets to the world?

12) Is God segregationist? Who created those that God has not "chosen"?

13) Is God vindictive? Is His forgiveness conditional and what are those conditions?

14) How does one know that they are "chosen"?

15) Does God "choose" or does he "save"?

Ngisizeni zihlobo ngingakalahlwa.

There is nothing like that, people rule their own destinies.

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.


I think it is everything except God's purpose.


Firstly, let us assume that there never was a Jesus.


Here let us assume that he once was man like me and you,then also assume that he never was like me and you because he always had been King of Kings God Himself.

No.

Most likely he is singing whereever he is.

[/quote]
Imibuzo yakho ilukhuni kakhulu.

i will have to answer some the questions in my own understanding from the biblical point of view when i get a chance. I am at work at present. Thats very interesting we all have to learn and be taught. We will learn till we leave this world. At the moment i will say that the will of God is being done, will explain more latter

Ngiyabonga bakwethu. KaMadlenya ngiyakuzwa baba. Lapho engiphonse ngilahleke khona kula othi wena lalapha othi
Ungasiza ucace.

abafokazi,ngizokulinda uze uphendule, ngiyabonga.

hi mnumzana first l would like ask you this-do u know who Jesus is?
Why do u want to know?Whats the reason of all your questions-
Mfethu sometimes we don't need to waste isikhathi sabantu? If you are really serious about your answers i can help you in one condition-What's your relationship with God?

Without appearing to be rude, what should my relationship with God be? What if I do not have a clue about Jesus?

Bhudi ngiyabonga for you to answer back- why l asked your relationship with God is because - kuzobanzima kuwe mfowethu ukuthi ungizwisise if you are asking for the fun of it/ unless u very serious about your questions -
into yokuqala omele uyizwisise yikuthi mina njengomchristo 1. believe ukuthi everything was created by God.
2.we were all created by God good/bad-
3.God gave all of us a choice- to choose what we want.
but in that-you have to know that God has a plan for everyone here on earth - it's when you are in a relationship that you get to understand and know your predestined plan that it was from the very beggining before God even created the earth.
God knew you /us before we were even in our mother's womb that's how far God knows us.
Predestination is not for everyone because not all of us are in relationship with Him-we have to choose weather we want what God wants for us or we want to have our own ways i.e.total surreder to Him as YOUR ONLY GOD.
In the new testament we see Jesus who was prophesied by the old testament prophets coming into this earth to re-concile us back to GOD.You must know that u Adam failed to STAND up to the standard of God - and God had to raise up His one AND ONLY SON- JESUS CHRIST- to bring back the sinner to God without the shedding of blood.
Jesus is the reason why you and me are in the plan of God-if it wasn't for Jesus - the road for most of us will be hell - which is not the plan of God for us- unless if you choose not to follow/have arelationship with Him/ or obey HIS commands.

Let me say to Siphepheli that give me your e-mail address and l will answer you in full sothat you understand this predestination- what's it's all about.I don't know how l will give you my e-mail then we share more- bhudi wami- ngiyabonga.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

Bhudi ngiyabonga for you to answer back- why l asked your relationship with God is because - kuzobanzima kuwe mfowethu ukuthi ungizwisise if you are asking for the fun of it/ unless u very serious about your questions-

Angandanga ukudlala ngendaba zosindiso. Kodwa kungenzeka ukuba wena ubone sengathi ngiyadlala. Uzaxola kulokho.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

into yokuqala omele uyizwisise yikuthi mina njengomchristo 1. believe ukuthi everything was created by God.

Lami futhi.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

2.we were all created by God good/bad-

Lami futhi, kodwa konke okwadalwa nguThixo kwakukuhle (Genesisi 1)

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

3.God gave all of us a choice- to choose what we want.
but in that-you have to know that God has a plan for everyone here on earth - Ngiyavuma. it's when you are in a relationship that you get to understand and know your predestined plan that it was from the very beggining before God even created the earth. Bengicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu ulobuhlobo loThixo kungelani lokuthi umuntu lowo ukhethe ukumkhonza uThixo loba hatshi. God knew you /us before we were even in our mother's womb that's how far God knows us. Limqotho lelo. Predestination is not for everyone because not all of us are in relationship with Him-we have to choose weather we want what God wants for us or we want to have our own ways i.e.total surreder to Him as YOUR ONLY GOD. Ngizaphinda njalo ngithi bengicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu ulobuhlobo loThixo kungelani lokuthi umuntu lowo ukhethe ukumkhonza uThixo loba hatshi.

Okwangithuma ukuthi ngibuze le imibuzo enganeno ekuqaleni kuyikuthi ngangingezwisisisi ukuba lensumansumane isebenza kanjani.

UNkulunkulu wabakhetha kudala abakhe na? Intuba isavuliwe na?

Nxa wakhetha kudala, ngingazi kanjani ukuthi ngakhethwa lami? Nxa intuba isavulekile, ngilethuba kumbe ilungelo lokuzimbandakanya lami na?

PREDESTINATION

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.

1) Is this phenomenon, God's purpose or is it man's figment of imagination? Or is it just politics?

2) Did Jesus minister to the "chosen" only?

3) Why did Jesus die and why the resurrection?

4) Did God need the resurrection to complete "predestination"?

5) What is Jesus doing at present?

6) What was the significance of the healing of leprosy?

7) Who was Mary Magdalene? What was her relationship with Christ? How did the two become acquainted?

8) Who was Saul of Tarsus? What is so special about him?

9) Does God hate "sinners"?

10) What is the "Second Advent"? Why has Jesus not come back?

11) Why has God always sent His prophets to the world?

12) Is God segregationist? Who created those that God has not "chosen"?

13) Is God vindictive? Is His forgiveness conditional and what are those conditions?

14) How does one know that they are "chosen"?

15) Does God "choose" or does he "save"?

Ngisizeni zihlobo ngingakalahlwa.

Ungangisiza mnakwethu ngokuphendula le imibuzo.

INTO YO KUQALA MFOWETHU MANGIBINGELELE- BESENGIBONGA WENA ke NDUNANKULU NGESIKHATHI SAKHO ONGINIKEZASONA.
Please not that l wasn't answering imubuzo ye predestination when l was numbering those point- l just wanted to establish some foundation of understanding and not urguring but to try to get to establish the truth in this matter ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD.

Spruce usulahlekile,

You suppose that Gods predestination begins with a human beings choice. Totally unscriptural and can never be the case. Human beings have to come to the truth that we are all creatures that is created beings. Therefore it forever remains that we are not equal with God therefore there is never a time that one can think do anything outside the foreknowledge and determination of God who has always ever existed before us.

Therefore to argue using clear linear logic, How is it possible that God waits for humans to make a choice before he begins a relationship with God is Illogical. Then we would have to say that Jesus Christ would have to die on the cross at the end after all human beings have made their respective choices either way. However the Bible teaches a totally different scenario, That Jesus Christ was cruscified before the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world is before even a single molecule of matter was created when there was nothing except God himself that is God the Father, God Jesus Christ the Son and God The Holy Spirit. At that time in eternity Elohim transliterated "GODS" predestined all that ever comes to pass in created time.

Turning specifically to The cruscifiction of Jesus Christ which is the determining fact that takes away the sin of a particular human being apart from Jesus Christ, It was at that time in eternity that Elohim "GODS" determined the death of Jesus Christ.

Now why all these facts? I draw your attension that it is impossible for a created human being to go back in time and make a choice that Elohim has already willed and set to be in all eternity. So now we can clearly state that it is not the choice or the will of a human being to be in relationship with Elohim. Now scriptural verses to prove this . Amoungst many I will begin with

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Now clearly the relationship to attain to eternal life is to be a Son of God. This is not possible to be by the choice or will of a human being.

Now my brothers note this anyone who does become a Son of God was in eternity before the foundation of the world predestined to this fact.



Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


OOOOO How wonderful draw your eyes to verse 11 God works all things after the counsel of his own will.

So my brothers there is no human will that makes us saved it is Gods particular will and when the Spirit of God which is God resides in you you then make a choice for God but clearly it is the Spirit making you to chose and to know and have a relationship for Jesus Christ in whom we are saved.

So yet again GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ALL THINGS THAT EVER COME TO PASS IN TIME.

Yes now that we can show that everything that happens was as a direct result of Gods pre determined descision and will when it was just Elohim in eternity we can attempt to investigate the coming into time the existence of evil.

Now taking it from the top Satan is the means by which all evil comes into play into the world in time as we experience it. Scripture is clear that Satan is a created being like every other creature. Therefore his role and Activities in the world and in time are as a result of Gods righteous Judgement. Noting here that Gods will is revealed in his Judgements and all his Judgements are right, righteous, all knowing and etrnal and immutable that is they cannot be changed.

So immediately we sinnful creatures must accept that evil exists because of Gods righteous decree and judgment and we are compelled whether we understand it or not to conceed that whatever God does is good and righteous and unquestionable. Equally true is that whatever Satan does is evil and under the control of God.

Neh 9:6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all [things] that [are] therein, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.




Ecc 8:2 ¶ I [counsel thee] to keep the king's commandment, and [that] in regard of the oath of God.


Ecc 8:3 Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him.


Ecc 8:4 Where the word of a king [is, there is] power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?




Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.


Job 9:11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see [him] not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.


Job 9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?


Here please bear with me It was my intension to show that whatever God does in essense is beyond comprehension to us in the fullest meaning ever to be accomplished by humans. Therefore we should endeavour never to question things beyond scriptural revelation. But to humble ourselves knowing that the activities of Satan are evil from Satan but righteous from Gods eternal predestination and decree and judgement.

Once we clearly ascetain the existence of evil in scriptural terms we will begin God willing to have wisdom in the full counsel of God in his redemptive purposes of the Elect of God because it will only be given to us the elect to understand parts of the revelation and counsil of the Almighty God and Creator To him be the Glory forever and ever through Jesus Christ my lord Amen

Hi Welly - well understood my friend but l think we don't really look at the same level- but looking at predestination is conditional as l read and understand That from the very beggining God did not plan for Adam and Eve to fall into sin.

Gen 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to farm the land and to take care of it.
Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man. He said, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden.
Gen 2:17 But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die."
Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is right for him."
Gen 2:19 The LORD God had formed all the wild animals and all the birds out of the ground. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called each creature became its name.
Gen 2:20 So the man named all the domestic animals, all the birds, and all the wild animals. But the man found no helper who was right for him.
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused him to fall into a deep sleep. While the man was sleeping, the LORD God took out one of the man's ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
Gen 2:22 Then the LORD God formed a woman from the rib that he had taken from the man. He brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She will be named woman because she was taken from man."
Gen 2:24 That is why a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, but they weren't ashamed of it.

This was the predestination of God but when the sin came in it was a defferent storry and God had to remove them out of the Garden of Eden and they had to work for their everything- and this was not the plan of God for them.
One thing that we need to look at is the parable of the prodigald son - we choose - we are not forced to worship God- otherwise if that's what God has planned for us then why does he have to judge us?

Joh 3:16 God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
Joh 3:18 Those who believe in him won't be condemned. But those who don't believe are already condemned because they don't believe in God's only Son.

God is fair - if that's the case,that everything was laid down for us then why does He has to send us to Hell?- It's our choice how we gonna be-
Look at the scripture that is on top - Jesus came to save the world or to reconcile us back to the father- Jesus is the redeeemer- but those who won't beleive they are already condemned because they don't believe in Jesus.

There is a set life by God, for everyone thats true but if don't follow His commands then you are out of His will.

Joh 15:4 Live in me, and I will live in you. A branch cannot produce any fruit by itself. It has to stay attached to the vine. In the same way, you cannot produce fruit unless you live in me.
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine. You are the branches. Those who live in me while I live in them will produce a lot of fruit. But you can't produce anything without me.
Joh 15:6 Whoever doesn't live in me is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Branches like this are gathered, thrown into a fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you live in me and what I say lives in you, then ask for anything you want, and it will be yours.

-THAT'S THE DEAL OR ELSE FORGET -

It's not me it's the word of God-

take time to read the reply l gave to Siphepheli- and analzie from the word of God.

Hie there Spruce lets take it one at a time. Now if Adam falling into sin was not known to God before hand and it was not part of the counsel of God and it still happenned it means now my freind you worship a God who is not Almighty ,omnipotent, all knowing past present and future. It means your god is useless he cannot pre plan and engages in crisis management like the Zimbabwe government pardon my pun here. Look mate if you ever went into theological circles and argued your point here you would be thrown out immediately.

The very essence of the word God means that him in being knows all your thoughts, motives, actions everything even what you will do to all eternity. Now tell me how could he have missed knowing that when he planted the forbidden fruit right in the middle of the garden then the humans would not have stumbled on it to all eternity. Know my friend then if God did not plan their falling into sin it would be outright stupidity to plant the tree in the middle of the Garden. Hey tell me was God sleeping when the devil began talking to Eve why did he not intervene did he not know in advance she was going to fall for the trap. Your god Spruce is very ignorant I certainly would not want to worship a weakling who doesnt know what his creation will do in advance, maybe they can even dethrone him in future etrnity then.

Now Spruce go back again and rethink your theology it is totally obsurd and unscriptural for you to boldy say "his was the predestination of God but when the sin came in it was a defferent storry and God had to remove them out of the Garden of Eden and they had to work for their everything- and this was not the plan of God for them."

So now your god can be forced into a corner by circumstances brought about by his creation.

I think mate you need to know That the Almighty YAHWEH is all knowing past present and future at all times since ever. He has always existed uncreated inhabits eternity and time. Knows the thoughts actions of all creatures, animals, angels, human beings, devil, demons. He knows what you will think say and do before you do or think it always. HE NEVER CHANGES That is everything that ever comes to pass was to be determined by his counsel in eternity. He never varies nor needs advice and no one or anything can resist his will. Spruce Im sure you have a different God to the God of the Bible who is the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacob.

Careful it is a sin even to think that God does not know anything and is a proreactor to the actions of men. God has power over all created beings or matter. Please read your scriptures then we can have a meaningful debate on the scriptural content of the Bible.

Welly
The day we will discovered that this "White God or White Jesus" does not exist, that would be the day all of Africa would be saved. Fools say in their hearts amadlozi awekho. My destination is predetermined by amadlozi wami.

Hi Well pliz don't be ANGRY with me - MINA ngiya vumelana nawe ma uthi God KNOWS EVERYTHING -He all powerful and He is the alfa and omega - Before God Created the earth He knew what was going to happen and has from the beggining known all things but where l don't agree nawe is when you say ukuthi laba bantu abanga labudlelwano no Nkulunkulu it is God's plan- God's plan for every is that we might know Him through His Son who is Jesus.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleases God our Savior.
1Ti 2:4 He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth.
1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans-a human, Christ Jesus.
1Ti 2:6 He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era.

If God has set everything as you put it why do we Pray?
Why should we seek Him as He instruct us in His word,

sa 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found. Call on him while he is near.
Isa 55:7 Let wicked people abandon their ways. Let evil people abandon their thoughts. Let them return to the LORD, and he will show compassion to them. Let them return to our God, because he will freely forgive them.
Isa 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways," declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."

You must understand one thing l'm not fighting against you but trying to show you what l understand in His word and pliz can you put/ refer to scriptures not your opinion but let the word bring the truth not church dotrine- because here it's not what the Church says but what the Bible says put the verses in your what ever you putting across.
IF l'm wrong then you need to show me clearly that how can l have been in God' plan without me having Jesus as my Saviour.

Mayed l'm also failling to understand somewhere across the lines but still - if There are people excluded in this wonderful life after death how then are some people not part made not to enter because God says that He loved this world so much that He gave His only beggoten Son- to bring us back to himself.

One more thing b4 l go can answer the questions that our Brother Siphepheli asked-

Now to clearly even to begin to understand holy Scripture is to acknowledge that The God of Abraham is Omnipotent. This means that he is ALLmighty and above all. He created everything that there is that the human eye can and cannot see.The whole of creation entirely has its being and functions and moves empowered by him alone. That is there is no part of creation that is independant of the creator. Also of note is that the creator he himself is free from any limitation whatsover and we the creation are limited to him excusively.

Further of note is that all that ever comes to pass has been ordained by God himself to be in time and space therefore in layman terms nothing ever happens in time that the creator has not ordained to happen. There is not even a single bird that falls to the ground that he is unaware of.

Now human beings have a difficulty in comprehending this and unless the Creator himself gives you the ability to understand this and to live by it you continue to have your being alienated from him and are in darkness not apprehending the power and sovreignity of God.

Now even an infedel should be able to ask " if there is a God? " he sees that implies he knows everything always in advance and has power over all things, " why does he allow i.e evil to happen?"

Now this is the fundermental understanding as anyone might begin to learn and to inquire on the workings and power of God. Now I find any human being not taking time to ponder and explore these things to be uterlly foolish as this is the only needful thing anyone could ever gain out of this created world.

Now back to predestination, demonstrative of Gods immense powers i can only deduce that he being ever existing as he was ever existing, before he created anything he determined and passed judgement as to what should ever happen throughout all eternity even in time and space. Take note it is even God himself who will bring time to an end and revert creation to an eternal state.

Now I dare say that if anything ever happens outside the scope of what God has predetermined to be, then essentially there would be another power above his and therefore he would not be god but the entity that has overpowered him and done something outside the scope which he in his power has set in advance.

So Spruce you are utterly confused and unable to clearly define what predestination is and its scope and power. You remind me of the saying that says DONT BE LIKE AN OSTRITCH THAT STICKS ITS HEAD IN THE SAND IN THE FACE OF DANGER. The very actions of Satan have been predestined by God himself. Satan has his power and existance from God and is not a power unto himself. The scriptures even detail the final crush that god will do away with him in time. I call this predestination mate. The book of Revelations is essentially predestination and all things mentioned there will occur exactly and explicitly as detailled and even the particular human beings in that time have been already decreed by God , who their mothers, fathers, brothers rulers ,will be.

SPRUCE THE FUTURE CANNOT BE ALTERED JUST LIKE HISTORY CANNOT BE ALTERED

Somehow people grapple with these truths explicitly laid out in the scriptures. STUDY THE SCRIPTURES THEY ALL REVEAL JESUS CHRIST

Thanks Welly
Please may you fill me in with this situation where God Jehovah gives choice and freewill allowing people to do according to their individual choices but under the jurisdiction of his Word so that at the time of judgemnt He is found to be the true Judge. Is it not the will of God that all men should come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and not die without the knowledge of His Son. Surely God will not predestinate a single soul to go to hell. So do not some things happen outside of God s doing, such that the faltering then face His wrath

Angazi mfowethu uma ungangivumela ngingenele kancane.

Okwakuqala, UNkulunkulu wayekhona njalo, ekuqaleni! Uma umbhalo uthi "ekuqaleni" awutsho ukuba uNkulunkulu ulesiqalo, kodwa utsho ukuba wayevele ekhona njalo njalo! Izinto zonke zidalwe nguye. Ekudaleni izinto lapha, uzidalele izizatho ezisenhlizweni yakhe. Ukuze izifiso kumbe injongo yakhe ifezeke kufanele abe edale izinto zonke ngokuqonda njalo ejonge impumela yezifiso zakhe. Ngakho sithi into yonke yenzeka ngoba iqondiswa nguNkulunkulu efeza intando yakhe! Kutsho ukuthi lokhu esithi yi kukhetha komuntu yinto evele yabekwa nguNkulunkulu. Abakhetha usindiso labangakhethi usindiso bonke bakhetha ngokuqondiswa nguNkulunkulu. Uma ukukhetha komuntu kungekho ngaphansi kwamandla ka Nkulunkulu, kutsho ukuthi uNkulunkulu kasiye Somandla! Ukuba ngu Somandla kutsho ukuba ulamandla phezu kwezidalwa zakhe zonke! Izinto ezinengi empilweni kasizikhethi. Wena awuzange ukhethe abazali bakho, awuzange ukhethe ukuzalelwa kwa Mgotsi, awuzange ukhethe inwele zakho ... kanjalo kanjalo. Phoke amampunge la athiwa lukhetho lomuntu ayini? Ize neze... into engekho! Uma umuntu ezalwa ngokutsha, angezeke akhethe, ngoba kungelamuntu ongakhetha abazali engakazalwa. Kungakho usindiso ngumsebenzi kaMoya Oyingcwele, akusukukhetha komuntu. Uma thina sibheka ngamehlo enyama sithi uzibani ukhethe uJesu. Kodwa ngempela ngempela akunjalo. UNkulunkulu nguyeke okhetha isoni, asisindise. UJesu uthi, "Akula ongeza kimi ngaphandle kokuba ekuphiwe ngu Baba" Kuthiwa ukukholwa kuyisiphiwo sikaNkulunkulu. Manje abanye bathi phoke kungani uNkulunkulu ecala abantu uma kunguye owenza abantu bale izwi lakhe. Lo ngumbuzo olula kakhulukazi. Uyabona, thina siyizidalwa. Ukudalwa kwethu akusiso sifiso sethu. Ngakho uNkulunkulu uyazikhethela ukuba enzeni ngathi, ngamunye ngamunye. Uma ethi uzibani yizibi ngizaphosela esihogweni, uzibani ngizamsindisa, konke lokhu kuligunya, kusentandweni lemandleni akhe! UNkulunkulu ulegunya lokwenza ingabe yilokho akufisileyo ngezidalwa zakhe. Ngakho akula bunzima obukhona lapha. Okwenza abantu bangemukeli iqiniso leli yikuba abantu bazibona bengonkulunkulu, bathi bafuna ukuzikhethela. UNkulunkulu kasidalelanga ukuba sikhethe, kodwa ukuba silandele imilayo leziqondiso zakhe! Lokhu akusilo ke ukhetho kodwa yimfanelo!
Ngcono ngime lapha kancane!

omnyama

OMNYAMA
The will of God is that all men may be saved. The fact that there is God s will presupposes that there is also someone else s will which can happen if the will of God is not obeyed. While God is above all things and all things consist in him He has given the world his will and an open playing field where his will can be obeyed or not. It is not God s will or ordination when one can fly a jumbo jet filled with souls through a building. Such an act is not achieved through the power of God. It is done through some other power although not free from God, is however operating in disobedience. Whosoever does such an act stands answerable to God on that day , the grand finale , so to speak. We cant say the Lord allowed such an act to happen either.

mfethu ,unjani, usaphila kodwa, phila mina ngisaphila.of all thing i bhayibhili i fear it. all i know is that there were wars also in the bible God used to lead or protect his men during wars.let us not bring the bible into this war.we are a god fearing nation

Bazalwane.

linjani lonke?

lindaba ye-predestination ingathi ilukhunyana, kanti njalo leBhayibheli lami lanyamalala lemithwalo kwiKLM, lingixolele angenelisi ukucaphuna encwadini, bengicela ukuba omunye achaze acacise ngalelivesi ngizalizama ngekhanda;

For God so loved the world that He gave it His
only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in
in Him should not perish but have everlasting
life. Jhn 3:16

i'm more interested on the WHOSOEVER part of it, in view of predestination of cause, is the term all inclusive or it has some limitations?

ngiyabonga.

Emz
Lathi siyabonga
Ngokuzwisisa kwami u"whosoever" can be taken in its literal meaning kungelahlupho nje. Inkinga ilapha ma usukhuluma ngabo "believes" ngoba imibhalo icina ifika kwezinye indawo ekhuluma ngokuthi "faith without works is dead faith" or he who believes is such and such...etc etc. So u"whosoever" is iloba engubani, as long as such a one believes. Yena lomuntu okholwa kanjalo it means, has been chosen according to election of grace, hatshi ngendlela esikhetha ngayo thina esifika sithi wena, lalo, lalo, ngenani hatshi lo lalo lalowana lingangeni. Yena ukukhetha kwakhe uMdali uthi "abazahamba" kanje kumbe "abazaphila" kanje sebekhethiwe and predestinated. This includes even those that may not yet be born.

Ngiyabonga MTHWE,
Ukubala indima ibenye emibhalweni kuzala ukungazwisisi ngokupheleleyo ibhayibhili, langokusanganiseka ingqondo. Abakholwayo, yibobodwa uNkulunkulu abakhethileyo. Abakhethileyo, yibobodwa abakholwayo. UNkulunkulu wathumela iNdodana yakhe ukuba izofela izono zalabo bodwa. U Jesu akafelanga wonke umuntu. Ngabe uJesu wafela izono zabantu bonke jikelele, ngabe akula muntu oya esiHogweni. Izono ezihlawulelwe ngumhlatshelo wokufa kukaJesu emqamlezweni, uNkulunkulu akazibaleli kulabo abathole ukuthethelelwa ngokufa kwakhe. Kungakho kungumcabango ogobileyo ukuthi abanye abantu uJesu abafelayo baya esiHogweni. Intando kaNkulunkulu ngokusindiswa komuntu kayeyamelanga entandweni yalowo odinga ukusindiswa. Abathole insindiso, UNkulunkulu wabakhetha umhlaba ungakabikho! Ngakho ukusindiswa kwabo akusuki ekukhetheni kwabo. Kungumusa kaNkulunkulu nje!

Kuyintando kaNkulunkulu uma indoda idakwa, ifike emzini wayo itshabalalise umndeni wayo ngesibhamu! Uma kungasiyo ntando kaNkulunkulu ngeke kwenzeke! Lokhu yinto nje emgceke. Ukuthi abantu bakuthola kunzima ukuba bakwamukele lokhu, akulani lokuqiniseka kwakho. Uthi uJehova inkosi yamabandla,Isiah 45:5-7 --" I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]........

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

omnyama

Thanks Welly
Please may you fill me in with this situation where God Jehovah gives choice and freewill allowing people to do according to their individual choices but under the jurisdiction of his Word so that at the time of judgemnt He is found to be the true Judge. Is it not the will of God that all men should come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and not die without the knowledge of His Son. Surely God will not predestinate a single soul to go to hell. So do not some things happen outside of God s doing, such that the faltering then face His wrath


FREEWILL

This is where sinfull humanity looses its plot with relation with its maker. Where in the Bible does it tell you you were given FREEWILL. Certainly your sinful mind has coined it into the scriptures. There is nowhere in the Genesis account where Adam was created and given the Choice to either choose God or choose the devil using his freewill.


Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So see clearly the teaching in the scriptures that all humanity except Christ were born dead in sins. The emphasis dead is what freewill or choice does a dead corpse have? NONE AT ALL

Unless a man is BORN AGAIN surely he CANNOT CANNOT SEE HEAVEN because he is born dead in tresspasses and sins. What freewill did people in Africa have to get to heaven before the Gospel arrived "NON AT ALL"Even if the Gospel arrives unless you are born again you cannot use freewill to be born again that is wholely an act of God. If you can make yourself or use choice or freewill to believe God, then you negate Jesus Christ as your saviour it is no longer Grace but works.

As the scriptures say

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Where is the FREEWILL of Adams posterity in choosing whether to be sinners or not nether is there FREEWILL in many being made RIGHTEOUS. Surely scripture is clear as a magnifying glass. You have to be insane to think that you can exersise freewill when you approach God. That is absolute nonsense. Thats why we use the Bible you cannot just use the koran to come to God or brew beer like foolish humans to draw closer to God.

You people hate predestination because you feel you have to be given freewill. Now will you counsel God on what and what not to do, You are absolutely sinfull and presumptious of the Majesty and power of God. Dont you know that God is AUTOCRAT AND ABSOLUTE RULER.

Gods power is ABSOLUTE AND ARBITRARY without question. GOD decrees the end from the begginning, his rule is from generation unto generation to all eternity without end from eternity. That should not be a question at all. Listen you people nothing is self existant in ceation only God is self existant and eternal.

So before we exergit scripture on the other points who can clearly demonstrate that they are free from God to make their own choices after all that is what FREEWILL IS. Then we can go on.

However as for me I worship God because he has made me righteous in Christ and I was elected by God himself for the very purpose. Thats why I call on the name of Jesus Christ because he is my saviour. He is the only name given under heaven in which any man is saved. Saviour means I couldnt do it on my own I needed Jesus Christ to do it on my behalf.

So you freewiils be careful you might just die in your freewill sins, Give up this blasphomous talk and submit yourselves under the hand of the ALL ALL ALMIGHTY.

linjani bazalwane?

WELLY
Ngiyabonga baba. Makukahle ngingacela ukhangele kahle iposting yami, you even quoted it which means as you write yours you are looking at mine.My posting is full of questions, my opening line Im actally requesting you to fill me in. Pho manje kutheni mfowethu?

Mthwebula1 Clearly my post is to demonstrate to you that you do not have a choice or freewill with God. God does not consult you or any human being in his decrees on what will happen and not happen on earth in the course of history. Yes humans have a will but that will has no power over or in anyway does it determine Gods eternal decrees. God consulted non of his creatures before he created them and neither does he seek their will today or in future. There is no indesisiveness with God. So when you say that god gave us freewill and choice to do this or that, this is a very erraneous statement which can never be supported by scripture.

We all humans after Adam are conceived is sin and sinners apart from Christ who was without sin. All the elect of God are conceived into righteousness as a free gift from God, this is what the Bible says "BEING BORN AGAIN, THE SECOND BIRTH, BIRTH OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD". All these conceivings so to speak is the will of God and has nothing to do with the will of human beings.

By the disobedeince of Adam all human beings apart from Jesus Christ are made sinners this is a fact and has nothing to do with the will of a human being, It is Gods will. By the obedeince of Jesus Christ all the ELECT, GODS CHOSEN ONES are made RIGHTEOUS, again this is a fact and has nothing to do with the will of Human beings, ITS GODS WILL.

Now please can someone tell me is there any difficulty in understanding these simple basic truths that can never change, past present and future. Listen in heaven not a single soul not Chosen by God unto eternal life will ever attain to the heavenly abode. Yes God still requires that the non elect live a sinless life from birth to death and if they dont, " AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THEY NEVER DO " God will avenge for their sins done in the body and theirs is eternal damnation in the lake of Fire.

Gentlemen surely you cannot complain of Gods severity against the Guilty. God will never let the Guilty go free. Why do you think we the saved Love God fervently and contend for the Faith in season and out of season. For the very fact that we know that God has given us GRACE which is impossible for a human being to attain to. But hey nothing is impossible with God. And if some of our children brothers or relatives dont attain to heaven God has assured us he will wipe the drastic pain away in heaven. Surely how do you think Abraham felt when God rejected Ishmael, or when Issac's favourite son Esau was rejected and hated by Allmighty God. They never had a choice but to submit to Gods will.

BESIDES NOT A SINGLE CREATURE CAN WITHSTAND GODS WILL AT ANYTIME IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED AND WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN IN ETERNITY.

So please brothers lets begin on these basic points before we go to mature spiritual things, besides what is the definition of GOD. HIS very essence is that he is omnipotent.

Grace to you in the faith
Yours in Christ Amen

Welly
And there you continue.Just what is wrong? I m saying to you, all I have done is ask you to explain something which I did not understand. What are you angry about. I asked you about freewill and choice.If there is no such thing just say so. I m not suggesting that there is.I just wanted to know if there is. You have a sharp tongue. "absolute nonsense" is too harsh to direct to me when all I done was to ask for an explanation. "insane etc" Change your language, season your language, speak as becometh the gospel. How many ARE YOU GOING TO WIN TO THE GOSPEL MA UKHULUMA KANJE PHAKATHI KOMPHAKATHI. I read somewhere in the bible where God is encouraging me to choose between life and death. He says I have put before you life and death but you choose life. I would discuss a lot of things with you but the way you talk its like we will do more damage than good to the Kingdom by the end of the day. Its like you got an argument in your head already but dont accuse me of it. IN MY POST i NEVER EVEN CLAIMED ANYTHING OR ASSERTED ANYTHING, I ONLY ASKED YOU A QUESTION. I am totally embarassed. Everybody ubhekile nje uthi bona abazalwane

welly

ngikuzwe kahle mfowethu/mzalwane, uthi wena God created sinners and requires them to live sinless lives and He knows beforehand that they'll never do the contrary and thereafter God is going to deflagrate them esihogweni? ngiqondise mhlawumbe angikutholi kahle.

Purely factual pardon the directness of my tone however it is not my intension to bear harm to yourself. It is most importance to clearly lay out that which is wisdom and foolishness. When my brother we delve into scriptural exegesis we are dealing with eternal life and eternal death. We seek truth and eliminate error whether in my person or anyone elses who dares ponder these things that pertain to the etrnal destinies of our souls. Hence I am not hear to seek freindship or communes I leave that tfor my Church. Hear I am in deffense of the truth as I have read it and understood it and should I be guilty of foolishness and evil so be it and may the Lord have mercy on my soul. That being out of the way we are in a war with evil forces and we engage as such. Evil forces seek distort truth and such we will label it. Surely my brother you can take the heat of battle.

Back to the point The Bible teaches clearly that from the fall of Adam Humanity became evil corrupt and an enemy hating God. Now God is Holy and never acepts sin so he demands that humans obey and worship him and to choose him. The question is does a human being posses a will to choose God and to worship him 24/7 so to speak. Well clearly in scripture there is non righteous no not one


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So take note there is not a single human being who is not evil. So now if you are evil you cannot do that which is righteous as to Choose God, However this does not negate Gods righteousness in demanding you to act righteously. Adam was created righteous so you cannot blame God for your inability to do that which he demands of you. Adam was created with capability to do all that God requires but lost it when he of his own freewill Chose to disobey. When Adam fell my brother you lost that freewill that Adam had instead that freewill is free to sin continually 24/7. Scripture teaches that we are slaves to sin i.e free from righteousness and a slave to sin.

However as we acertained earlier the unfolding of History is non the less the will of God according to his eternal decrees. So what shall we conclude if all humans always do the will of God can we then say that there is evil with God , surely may God forbid such thoughts




Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Here Romans 9:19 tells us no one resists what God wills them to do so then the Holy spirit knowing our sinful minds asks exactly what everyone asks then why does God Judge people for the evil which he wills them to do? Hey read the answer for yourselves in verse 20. Look at verse 22 God has specifically allowed the vessels of wrath i.e the people going to hell to commit their evil designs of their heart so he will demonstrate his power of wrath on them when he torments them in hell and when he damns them into the lake of fire.

Watch what God does in verse 23 these are the elect the vessels of mercy, he demonstrates and shows forth his love and forgiveness to them by preparing them beforehand for Glory. Now tell me brother how can God forgive a vessel of mercy if it had not sined. Thats illogical cant you see this.

Read the whole chapter surely its enough to shut every human beings mouth


Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

You see God has made sure that all humans are guilty before him so unless he has mercy on you surely you will never exersise your sinful will and choice to choose him mate and thats the truth.

REJOICE IF GOD HAS SHOWN MERCY ON YOU AND KNOW THAT IT IS A FREE GIFT.

MY BROTHER SURELY YOU HAVE HEARD THAT GOD HAS CREATED ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF.

Now my brother all things means all things and god is the disposer of all things. Do you not know my brother that God is the one who Justifies the evil. There is not a single soul that can be Justified infront of god never. I am running out of library time but will rake up the verses for you. Tyr using http://www.blueletterbible.org and search all verses with " all things"

Remember all things he created them to Glorify Jesus Christ. even sinners are created to be judged by him or else if there were not there he wouldnt be a judge. Surely you can at least see this. You would never have sex and have children if God did not create your wife would you ?

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

So you see my brother truely the Lord has created all things even if we humans cannot understand everything into these things but this i know the lord has called into existence all things that are whether we see them or not.


Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So you see that Gods election is that no man shall ever stand before God and boast that he of himself has chosen God but rather that we shall be humble before him for his praise in him doing that which we could never do which is to do that which is noble and Choose him. If you do not have the Spirit of God in you which is given by the will of god only you cannot nor indeed ever come to know God truely or worship him truely. You remain evil continually of you own evil sinful will. However read galatians and Romans and the fruit of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is that you will become a slave of righteousness. This is how we discern if we ourselves have been made children of God or not and this is how we recognise that so and so have been born again. If you see yourself persistently oppose the word of god and are living in sin notably the sin of sexual impurty this is the mark of them that are of the world for they do those things of the world and their father is the devil. however since election is by Grace never ever suppose that so and so will never be born again because the exact time of rebirth of the Spirit is according to the will of God. the theif on the cross was given repentence at the last moment of his death on the cross, so unless someone has blsphemed the Spirit of God they remain candidates for salvation. Yes we humans can never know that this one is elect or not it is Gods perogative and he hides these things from man. It is given to us to run the races before us, but never ever suppose that one can manipulate or do things unknown to God. Hey why dont you ask God this in your prayers I am sure he will reveal it them he Loves.

Grace and peace in Christ.

Amen


CONSIDER THIS ALSO BROTHERS IF GOD DID NOT RESTRAIN HUMAN EVIL WE WOULD HAVE ALL ANAHILATED OURSELVES A LONG TIME AGO. THAT IS IF GOD ALLOWED US TO HAVE FREEWILL IT WOULD BE A DISASTER. NEVER THINK THAT YOU HAVE NOT PHYSICALLY MURDERED ANYONE BECAUSE OF YOUR FREEWILL,THIS IS A LIE IT IS GODS RESTRAINT ON EACH AND EVERY HUMAN AND IT IS HIM WHEN HE RELEASES THIS RESTRAINT PARTICULARLY ON THOSE THAT MURDER PHYSICALLY. I THINK ANY RATIONAL BEING CAN DEDUCE THE ANSWER ALWAYS ASKED " IF GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE SO MUCH EVIL"

There have been those who have asked if there is a God why did so and so die or why was my child raped? The answer is in the Bible. The only truth there is . No other religion can clearly explain what is going on in the world but Jesus Christ gives the truth and actually saves a remnant of us.

Welly you know well i dont not agree with none this,that u are saying,"for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed in him shall"..........,that should highlight something about God's love towards his people.

Hie there mate and yes I know we disagree and I have facts to back it up. Just to aid you along I have highlighted the above phrase from yourself. You see mate I have alwaysed insisted that God has an eternal Love for his people and an eternal Hatred for the Children of Satan. You see mate when you are dealing with God you have to conceed that He is ETERNAL and his descisions have ETERNAL consequenses either way. Add to the paradigm that GOD NEVER CHANGES I am sure you will spare me the trouble of backing these things in scripture.

So now The fact is that everyone is born in the flesh as a child of the devil with evil spirits except Jesus Christ who was beggotten of God himself by the Holy Spirit. Now why did Jesus come into the world is to effect the transaction that was agreed before the world was created to purchase the part of humanity that God was going to adopt as his Children.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now if you care to look closely into these passages you will notice that God is in the enterprise of Adoption. Now I dont think I will ever come across a Child who determines who will adopt him, this is senseless it is the would be parents who choose who to adopt and who not to adopt given the choice of several children up for adoption. So mate God bears the absolute discretion who to adopt and who to leave in the hands of satan. Besides if God has not chosen to adopt you this is what he does to you............




Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:


Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Besides Mahlab'ayithwale if you are non elect God has already given you the Spirit of the Devil so that you may not see and understand and give glory to him, thats why non true believers always refuse to submit to the power of God to do as he Wills.



Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:


Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

You see mate or rather you are blind to the fact that God opens the eyes of the ELECT so that they may see and speaks in parables to the NONELECT so that they never understand and thus your sins are never forgiven and you go straight to hell for the sins you commit.

There is Gods election and predestination written all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation but you non believers always resist and complain yet you sin everyday and dont realise that only the elect ever get to go to heaven. Look there is only two possible ways to get to heaven 1) NEVER SIN FROM BIRTH TO DEATH AND DO ALL THE LAW 2)GOD CHOOSES YOU AND DIES TO WIPE AWAY YOUR SIN AND COMES TO EARTH AND DOES THE LAW ON YOUR BEHALF

Clearly since you are not GOD my brother you cannot do number 2. Sorry mate since you are born with sin you cannot do the first one either so you are a sitting duck ready to be shot and killed. In small words it is impossible for a human being to ascend to heaven but what is impossible with man is possible with God.

I will continue to preach the truth coz anyway i will receive a crown in heaven,so try and look for scripture to refute the above. Oh yes by the way you people always say that one must not read the bible too much. So you shall reap what you sow and hey at the end of the road it will just prove how ignorant you have been in this life by not taking the time to ponder and research Gods word. Jesus told Martha that her sister Mary chose what is better by choosing to listen to Jesus and sitting by his feet rather than chasing fancifull earthly endeavours and trying to be a billlionaire. You Guys dont bother to read the bible day in and day out till you understand but you presume to know Gods ways without having the verses. I am not trying to do you down but to challenge you to read before you assume.

Now to the verse yu quoted




Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are two types of people mentioned here those who believe and those who dont. The holy spirit here speaks of them in the past tense coz in the mind of God he already knows who are his and who will believe. This verse is not saying that God LOVES EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING and then contradicts and say some of these very human beings are condemned for not believing. This is ludicrous. There is no confusion with God. HE Knows who believe and those who dont . Besides when he puts his Spirit in you , you then believe. Is that not so. When he refuses to give you his Spirit it is impossible to believe. I think some of these things are basic Logic if you care to sit down and think them through.

4

Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,


Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;


Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

I put these verses here to show you all that it is God who inhabits all to produce the faith to believe in him. Now unless you are Totally mad it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that God is not in every single human being. Even I who has been a mental institution can easily interpretate to know that here the Holy Spirit is speaking to those who believe who have the Holy Spirit. These are those who were predestinated and Loved by God and are his people.

Kambe iBible lithethisile yini when it is clear God Loves his people and Hates those who are not his. He gives his people his Holy Spirit so that they believe and go to heaven coz Jesus Christ died for them. I think anyone who assumes Jesus Christ died for every single human being and God has put his Holy Spirit to every single human being is foolish becoz only a minority of the six billion people actually believe in Jesus Christ anyway. Even those who say they believe most dont have the spirit.

welly

Jhn3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that through Him the world might be saved.

may i ask, please, who are those referred by the text as the world? is the term all-inclusive or is it limited?

ngiyabonga

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Clearly my brother the world is made up of those who believe and those who dont believe. Hence self explanatory we can deduce that the DONT BELIEVES are condemned already and Christ who comes not to condemn but to save the BELIEVERS.Surely we all know that BELIEVERS sin everyday till they die, hence the transaction has to be made so that BELIEVERS are made RIGHTEOUS,JUSTIFIED,SONS ADOPTED,REDEEMED,SANCTIFIED,GLORIFIED IN RESSURECTION,the list of benefits is endless. The NON BELIEVERS are given the same treatment like Cain, Esau,Pharoh i.e God HATDENS THEM"REPROBATION",HOLDS THEM GUILTY,RECOMPENSATED WITH ETERNAL EVIL IN LAKE OF FIRE,FORSAKEN, the list of torments is endless.

The BELIEVERS were chosen by God. The NON BELIEVERS were chosen by God.


Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Please take note The chosing was done before the foundation of the world and the last highlight, because you were chosen in Christ you are deemed FAITHFULL always even if you did not believe the most part of your life like the theif on the cross and were in actual fact not FAITHFULL. Why but your unfaithfullness was a sin paid for by the death of Christ on the cross. Clearly God would be unjust to say you are unfaithfull when he has already forgiven you for that very unfaithfullness.

Pardon me folkes now where realy here am I lost. Let the Bible speak for itself. God is more than capable to defend his HONOUR.

So emz in Laymans terms WORLD in the passage you quoted is not all inclusive. Remmember TRUE ISREALITES are not the physical descendants of Abraham. TRUE ISREALTES are those who have the FAITH OF ABRAHAM according to the promise brought about by the SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST. So next time you see the physical lineage of Abraham banging their heads on the East Wall of Jerusalem Know that you can tell them that we who worship The LORD YAHWE JESUS CHRIST by his HOLY SPIRIT are true Isrealites. Check Romans i think Chapter 7-10, Hence thats when Paul explains predestination hence physical Isreal dont believe by predestination default and we Gentiles believe truely. Even Paul warns us and tells us that Gods ways are unsearchable. If you study Revelations its all PREDESTINATION telling you that all Isreal physical descendants will be made to believe 100% at the end times and Gentiles will be massaccred. Even after the 1000 year reign of Christ there is a predestined remnant who will fall away from belief taking into consideration that duiring the 1000 years all human beings will believe 100% at first even at birth and they will live to almost 1000 years. You will learn from scripture that at those times there will virtually be no death because there will be no sinning when Christ is on the throne. No Lion or snake bites children will be using them as pets. Now call me mad but the Bible says so.

CHEERS FOLKES LOVE U ALL. GREAT DISSCUSSION I THANK THE GOOD LORD FOR THIS THREAD.

welly,

So far so good! Siyavumelana. Kodwa uma ususithi,


... sesikhuthana kancane. Lokhu kuzwakala sengathi yi Dispensationalism. Le yimfundiso engekho emibhalweni. AmaReformers babechasisa ukuba incwadi yeSambulo iveza izinto ezenzeka kusukela uJohani eloba lencwadi kuze kube manje njalo kusiya ekuzeni kweNkosi. I "falling away" okukhulunywa ngayo seyenzeka, ngoba kwakutshiwo ukweduka kwebandla lakuqala lisiba yiRoma. UPapa yiyo i"man of sin" uMpikuKrestu, ozibeka esihlalweni seNkosi azenze uNkulunkulu!
Imfundiso le yalahleka yafiphazwa yi Dispensionalism okukuthi manje abantu sebekholelwa ukuba zonke izinto ezikuSambulo lokhe ziseza. Akunjalo! Iminyaka ezinkulungwane itsho isikhathi eside ukusukela ekwenyukeni kweNkosi kusiya ekuzeni kwayo okwesibili njengomahluli.

omnyama

omnyama, I am not a Dispensationalist I endeavour to study the word and let it speak for itself. If you study the Old testament there is prophescy given that The Lord will regather all of Isreal back to their promised Land as an inheritance forever according to promises made to their forefathers. Unless we are totally blind this has not been fullfilled and Revelations teaches us that God is going to fullfill this by the Second coming of the Messiah. Take note most physical descendants of Abraham are still waiting for the first coming of their perceived Messiah but we know that he was Jesus Christ. If you read Isaih and Zechariah you will notice that they even prophesied that physical Isreal was going to not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. However back to Revelations in basic form it reveals the sequence of events cullminating in the reign of Christ for a 1000 years from his throne in Jerusalem and the subsequent end of the world to Judgement and then eternity. I do not think this is Dispensationalism it is plain teaching of scripture. I suppose you have read Revelations yourself and know that before the second coming of Jesus Christ there will reign on earth the embodiment of Satan himself the antiChrist who will declare himself God, then Christ will descend 3.5 years then to destroy him with all those who worship him except those whom will be preserved from worshipping him. Then thats when I did mention in overall paintbrush the coming in of the 1000 year reign even mentioned in the old testament when there will be RIGHTEOUSNESS on earth and the subsequent peace and tranquility on earth and so forth. Surely every believer should read with scrutiny because we all believers will have a part in the 1000 years though scripture does not detail it much but is clear that we will all return here with Christ to reign with him. If scripture says so then this is a predestinated fact. IT WILL COME TO PASS ACCORDING TO GODS WORD.

There is only one Israel, and circumcision is that of the heart not in the flesh. There is no such thing as "physical Israel". Israel is spiritual. The promises of the inheritence are what we inherit in Christ uma sikholwa kuye, not some desert little place out in the middle of nowhere! Old "physical" Israel was a type of the Church, and the promises pointed to and were fulfiled in Christ.

Waze wangihlekisa! Kusobala ukuba awazi ke ukuba iDispensionalism iyini! Okushoyo kulindima yiyoke iDispensionalism uqobo! Njengoba uku Internet, "google" ukuze ufunde ama errors and distortions of the word of God anjengala owasho lapha.

Njengoba ngishilo ngaphambilini, i"mystery of iniquity" and "the falling away" that Paul refers to was the great apostacy of the first New Testament church. The "man of sin who exalts himself as God" is such obvious reference to the Roman Catholic papal system that it is amazing how any one can miss it. That you can proffer classical dispensionalist teaching on the book of revelation and then blurt, "this is not dispensionalism" is testimony to the incredible damage that this heresy has done to christians! This is like an alcaholic saying, angisisosidakwa mina! It also implies that you do not understand the seriousness and fatal nature of the errors and distortions of the word of God by the Roman Catholic system!
The "last days" refer to the period since the early church to today on to the second coming. The four horsement of the Apocalypse in Revelation are not about some distant future but refer to conditions on earth during this period. There is war, famine, oppression and diseases! All this has been happening with intensity, since John wrote the Apocalypse. It happened during colonialism. Okhokho bethu bathathelwa umhlaba, ngezinye izizwe, thina usapho sacindezelwa, kwaba le First and Second world wars, uStalin, Mussolini lo Hitler between them killed some 50 million people. EChina, Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward(which fell flat on its face) took with it some 20 million Chinese. Then there was Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia. UMgabe, with obvious complicity of the British(there were British military advisers post independence) killed some 20-40 thousand people, in the Midlands and Matebelaland, ngoba bengafuni uNkomo and ZAPU believing they were threats to their vested interest in the mineral wealth yeZimbagwe, which they have exploited since the Rudd Concession. There was Rwanda and Burundi, it is happening in Dafuor, there is the AIDS pandemic, malaria, TB etc etc, hunger. There has been food riots in South America recently which threaten to spread around the world with recent global food price hikes. All this was seen by John, then.
Please welly, makubale, read widely. Do not be wise in your own conceit!

omnyama

omnyama I think lets not spoil this thread and let it be juggled with other matters not refering to PREDESTINATION. I am sure that here lets establish the fact that is unchangeable that God does predestinate all things. This was the jest of all the above arguments.

Of interest though you may want to start a thread of your thinking on the matter to do with Roman Catholics, antiChrist coz basically this notion that you people define Roman Catholicism and antiChrist is baffling.Tell me I think we Zimbabweans have seen more evil manifestations than that. Do we not have a Zimbabwean who said he was God himself and was worshiped in Bulawayo under the church gutaramwari. To me this is the spirit of the antiChrist and not The ANTICHRIST himself who has not come on the world scene yet. either way lets take that discussion to another thread. Your interpretation of the evil in the world today and Revelations is bafling, I can be certain you must be the only one with this view, you sound like a Brahamist they have quiet a story about Revelations but eitherway we need a new thread for that.

omnyama

i hate name praising when it comes to matters of God, lest the man boast and forget his Creator, but with regards to the way you present the truth, as contained in the Holy Scriptures, ngithi Igama leNkosi malidunyiswe, Amen. i hope you won't take this as robbery.

welly

same goes for you may God bless you njalo and never tire searching Scriptures.

let me hasten to say, study the scriptures especially the book of the Revelation, and try to refrain from textual references,rather grasp the contextual meaning of scriptures.

did you notice that the 1000 yrs will commence at the second coming of Christ and the dead in Christ shall rise first and we who are still alive will be caught up with them and meet the Lord in the clouds and go to heaven and be with Christ for a 1000 yrs in heavenly Jerusalem.

and take note that the bad guys don't get up on the second coming and those of them who are alive will be smitten dead by His glory. during the millenium the dead (sinners) will be judged and then resurrected (second resurrection) and the devil will be released from the bottomless pit and he will deceive them for the last time to attack the new Jerusalem which will be descending on this earth, thus when fire and brimestone will issue from God's throne and consume them (hell) and rid this world of sin, and eternity kicks in. God's people will dwell on this new earth forever and evermore.

your views are very much interesting, if i may say it will be nice to conduct a study with someone of your views.

God bless.

The Bible is a unity, if you start on a topic, sooner than later, other matters will crop up. That is NOT "spoiling the topic". It is a natural development of thought!

When you say you think Zimbabweans have seen "more evil than that", this is testimony of your appalling ignorance of history and also how well the Roman Catholic machince has learned to manage its image. Just an example: Christians used to be burned at the stake by Roman Catholics. 70 thousand Protestants were killed on St Bathalomew day http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-StBartho.html
Do you understand what is wrong with Roman Catholicism?
Do you know the doctrines and titles of the pope? Can there be anything more antichrist? Have you read the Foxe's Book of martyes? It documents the systematic murders of saints in the most cruel manner imaginable! Please welly, AKE UFUNDE ..... Please read, study.
Well, why don't you start the thread?
Really? Are plagues, like AIDS, malaria, TB normal to you? Are the mass murders of the 20th century normal to you? Is hunger and starvation normal to you? Do you wish for something more spectacular?
The "last days" are the days since the apostles until the coming of the Lord. It has been 2000 years ... so we are moving ever closer to the coming of the son of man! Those who are so callous and wish for more spectacular evil before they accept that we live in the last days, the day will come upon them unwawres as the bible warns. So be warned!

I do not know what those people teach about the last days but I beleive they think Branham is the last prophet and some such nonsense, basically Dispensionalist understanding of the Apocalypse, and like you, they deny that it is dispensesionalism.

bye,
omnyama

Welly
I wish you would listen. Be swift to hear but be slow to speak.

Hey mate what do you want me to listen to. Do you want me to agree to that we humans do as we please and God is powerless to do anything about it or that human beings self determine their destinies or some other baseless mans theorys that the bible does not teach. Hell no!!!!! so as someone might put it God forbid that I should subject myself to ignorance and blindness to truth as revealed in Holy Scripture.

So clearly say exactly what the Bible says and I will agree, now that is all I ask.

Welly
I m not asking you to agree to anything, no, that is not what I said, not at all. All these are your words that you state. All I said was be swift to hear and be slow to speak. For the gospel is not about word or deed but about power. If you lay your hand upon the sick and they recover thats the gospel. If you present your request to the Lord and we see the answer to your request thats the gospel. Ma uthi "hell" what do you mean? I said to you before, you have a sharp tongue and you did not agree. My desire is that we as christians may remain a light to the world but if the light that is in us is darkness how great is that darkness? If we argue mpaka mpaka we will lose everybody and win arguments but the desire of God is that we may harvest souls. "If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God......" Simple as that. Ma kusehlula, I rest my case. wena qhubeka.

welly

i salute you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

well when it comes to biblical matters we tend to be very argumentative, which is nothing but abuse of the Holy Scripture for, . 2Tim3:16.

we totally agree that nothing happens outside the foreknowledge of God.

however, where you get it all upside down is when and where you assert that nothing happens without the predetrmination or determination of God. you are alleging that rape, adultery, murder, envy,idolatory etc, are all predetermined by God? and on the other hand He gives the ten commandments, God is not a hypocrite, this statement is not only all careless, but treasonous against the government of God, of which Law and Justice are central pillers. how can God be just when others are given an upperhand, in Christ there is no Jew, no Gentile, no slave and no free man, the platform is level, whosoever will let him come. and it is absolutely your choice to be saved, God will never confess your sins or force you to leave them or Love Him.

moreso, you say that the chosen ones will sin and continue doing so until they die, mzalwane if Jesus comes or you die and you are still in sin, you ain't going with Him, for he who is just let him be just still and he who is filth let him be filth still.
we are saved from our sins not in them, this doctrine you are trying to convey, you know very well, that it is very unscriptural and dangerous.

another point you need to know is that God is not an autocrat, but instead He is merciful and He condescends with sinners, he invites them, Isa 1:18 autocrats do not make such invetations towards their subjects mzalwane. we might line up verses but if we don't understand their contents we will find ourselves at the wrong side of the gulf.

the topic on which we need to do a study is: If God is all powerful and all knowing, why then does He permit evil?

I disagree with you mate because in the wisdom of God our contradictions are also a good thing as evident in this passage of scripture

1Cr 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.


1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

So you see Emzy when we disagree about scripture it is also a good thing because then those approved of God will be made manifest that is they will be shown. Equally those who lack consise apprehension of all facets of scripture will be manifest.



Firstly lets define the word FOREKNOWLEDGE

Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence.

Hence we can safely say that God is omniscient that is

om·nis·cient (m-nshnt)
adj.
Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
n.
1. One having total knowledge.
2. Omniscient God

So when you agree with me you will also have to agree to the fact that in Gods FORKNOWLEDGE he knows everything there is to know about evil even if we humans do not. So now if we agree to this irrespective about sentiment about evil God always has known everything that ever comes to pass even before it ever comes to pass and all modalities to its occurance in TIME AND SPACE AND REALITY. Braking it down to brass tax Emzy God has determined the occurrance of EVERYTHING that ever happens in time from before TIME came to being in ETERNITY.

Your emotional outbursts of evil and treasonous accusations wont help your understanding of the issues involved here. If God has predetermined that you Emzy should in time be caught raping and murdering a youg girl, This Emzy you will do to the letter according to Gods determination and it is up to God either to determine to kill Jesus Christ for this sin or to pass ETERNAL DAMNATION for you for this very evil you will do Emzy




Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Emzy of all evil things that any human being can do there is no greater sin as such than that humans Killed and murdered sinless Jesus Christ who is their creator and God will pass Judgement on the pepertrators like Judas to eternal damnation

And yes Emzy using the BIBLES words this was all Gods and i quote " determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God

Now obviously this seems to worry you and you have charged and judged me to be treacherous but however you are proved wrong as YES EMZZY it is exactly ALL GODS DETERMINATE COUNCIL


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Emzy lets study the word and not be emotional now clearly I understand ALL THINGS as being both the existence of EVIL and GOOD are part of creation. Remember we are not the JUDGE we are creatures and take scripture at its word its all true.Also note here that it is God who determined to deliver Jesus Christ to be crusified by sinful men for us the Elect of God.

Here I can safely say along with Paul. "IF GOD IS FOR WELLY THEN WHO CAN BE AGAINST ME" Seeing that it is God who does the determining anyway before anything existed. So my mate you are in a quandry and i myself have God on my side.

Again my brother in the flesh, God never gave the commandments for you to fullfill them because he knows you cannot ever do so in a million years anyway. EMZY you are a sinner like all of us and you cannot do the LAW OR COMMANDMENTS rather you are a LAW BREAKER.


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Now dont ever forget this its very important . The Law is there to teach you that you are a sinner. It cannot be done by you Emzy because read carefully


Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We as sinful humans are unable to continually obey the Law without sin it is impossible only Jesus Christ ever did it. So the Law was given to us as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus Christ for salvation. If you try and honoustly obey the Law Emzy you will agree with me that in no matter of time if you are honest you will go running to Christ to hide you because actually by attempting to do all the Law you will begin to sin more and more. Try it Emzy but know this for a fact you will fail to do all the Law as required by the very Law of God. Only Jesus Christ ever fullfilled the Law and its precepts.

Now I shall again reply the rest of your post God willing I have for today run out of time.

May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you Emzy.