PREDESTINATION

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.

1) Is this phenomenon, God's purpose or is it man's figment of imagination? Or is it just politics?

2) Did Jesus minister to the "chosen" only?

3) Why did Jesus die and why the resurrection?

4) Did God need the resurrection to complete "predestination"?

5) What is Jesus doing at present?

6) What was the significance of the healing of leprosy?

7) Who was Mary Magdalene? What was her relationship with Christ? How did the two become acquainted?

8) Who was Saul of Tarsus? What is so special about him?

9) Does God hate "sinners"?

10) What is the "Second Advent"? Why has Jesus not come back?

11) Why has God always sent His prophets to the world?

12) Is God segregationist? Who created those that God has not "chosen"?

13) Is God vindictive? Is His forgiveness conditional and what are those conditions?

14) How does one know that they are "chosen"?

15) Does God "choose" or does he "save"?

Ngisizeni zihlobo ngingakalahlwa.

There is nothing like that, people rule their own destinies.

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.


I think it is everything except God's purpose.


Firstly, let us assume that there never was a Jesus.


Here let us assume that he once was man like me and you,then also assume that he never was like me and you because he always had been King of Kings God Himself.

No.

Most likely he is singing whereever he is.

[/quote]
Imibuzo yakho ilukhuni kakhulu.

i will have to answer some the questions in my own understanding from the biblical point of view when i get a chance. I am at work at present. Thats very interesting we all have to learn and be taught. We will learn till we leave this world. At the moment i will say that the will of God is being done, will explain more latter

Ngiyabonga bakwethu. KaMadlenya ngiyakuzwa baba. Lapho engiphonse ngilahleke khona kula othi wena lalapha othi
Ungasiza ucace.

abafokazi,ngizokulinda uze uphendule, ngiyabonga.

hi mnumzana first l would like ask you this-do u know who Jesus is?
Why do u want to know?Whats the reason of all your questions-
Mfethu sometimes we don't need to waste isikhathi sabantu? If you are really serious about your answers i can help you in one condition-What's your relationship with God?

Without appearing to be rude, what should my relationship with God be? What if I do not have a clue about Jesus?

Bhudi ngiyabonga for you to answer back- why l asked your relationship with God is because - kuzobanzima kuwe mfowethu ukuthi ungizwisise if you are asking for the fun of it/ unless u very serious about your questions -
into yokuqala omele uyizwisise yikuthi mina njengomchristo 1. believe ukuthi everything was created by God.
2.we were all created by God good/bad-
3.God gave all of us a choice- to choose what we want.
but in that-you have to know that God has a plan for everyone here on earth - it's when you are in a relationship that you get to understand and know your predestined plan that it was from the very beggining before God even created the earth.
God knew you /us before we were even in our mother's womb that's how far God knows us.
Predestination is not for everyone because not all of us are in relationship with Him-we have to choose weather we want what God wants for us or we want to have our own ways i.e.total surreder to Him as YOUR ONLY GOD.
In the new testament we see Jesus who was prophesied by the old testament prophets coming into this earth to re-concile us back to GOD.You must know that u Adam failed to STAND up to the standard of God - and God had to raise up His one AND ONLY SON- JESUS CHRIST- to bring back the sinner to God without the shedding of blood.
Jesus is the reason why you and me are in the plan of God-if it wasn't for Jesus - the road for most of us will be hell - which is not the plan of God for us- unless if you choose not to follow/have arelationship with Him/ or obey HIS commands.

Let me say to Siphepheli that give me your e-mail address and l will answer you in full sothat you understand this predestination- what's it's all about.I don't know how l will give you my e-mail then we share more- bhudi wami- ngiyabonga.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

Bhudi ngiyabonga for you to answer back- why l asked your relationship with God is because - kuzobanzima kuwe mfowethu ukuthi ungizwisise if you are asking for the fun of it/ unless u very serious about your questions-

Angandanga ukudlala ngendaba zosindiso. Kodwa kungenzeka ukuba wena ubone sengathi ngiyadlala. Uzaxola kulokho.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

into yokuqala omele uyizwisise yikuthi mina njengomchristo 1. believe ukuthi everything was created by God.

Lami futhi.

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

2.we were all created by God good/bad-

Lami futhi, kodwa konke okwadalwa nguThixo kwakukuhle (Genesisi 1)

In response to:
Poster: Spruce
Subject: Re: Predestination! God's or Man's?

3.God gave all of us a choice- to choose what we want.
but in that-you have to know that God has a plan for everyone here on earth - Ngiyavuma. it's when you are in a relationship that you get to understand and know your predestined plan that it was from the very beggining before God even created the earth. Bengicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu ulobuhlobo loThixo kungelani lokuthi umuntu lowo ukhethe ukumkhonza uThixo loba hatshi. God knew you /us before we were even in our mother's womb that's how far God knows us. Limqotho lelo. Predestination is not for everyone because not all of us are in relationship with Him-we have to choose weather we want what God wants for us or we want to have our own ways i.e.total surreder to Him as YOUR ONLY GOD. Ngizaphinda njalo ngithi bengicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu ulobuhlobo loThixo kungelani lokuthi umuntu lowo ukhethe ukumkhonza uThixo loba hatshi.

Okwangithuma ukuthi ngibuze le imibuzo enganeno ekuqaleni kuyikuthi ngangingezwisisisi ukuba lensumansumane isebenza kanjani.

UNkulunkulu wabakhetha kudala abakhe na? Intuba isavuliwe na?

Nxa wakhetha kudala, ngingazi kanjani ukuthi ngakhethwa lami? Nxa intuba isavulekile, ngilethuba kumbe ilungelo lokuzimbandakanya lami na?

PREDESTINATION

Zihlobo kuKhrestu, iyini le insumansumane? Ngithe ma ngiyibheka ngafikelwa yimibuzo le enganeno lapha. Lingasiza bazalwane lingenze ngizwisise ngale insumansumane.

1) Is this phenomenon, God's purpose or is it man's figment of imagination? Or is it just politics?

2) Did Jesus minister to the "chosen" only?

3) Why did Jesus die and why the resurrection?

4) Did God need the resurrection to complete "predestination"?

5) What is Jesus doing at present?

6) What was the significance of the healing of leprosy?

7) Who was Mary Magdalene? What was her relationship with Christ? How did the two become acquainted?

8) Who was Saul of Tarsus? What is so special about him?

9) Does God hate "sinners"?

10) What is the "Second Advent"? Why has Jesus not come back?

11) Why has God always sent His prophets to the world?

12) Is God segregationist? Who created those that God has not "chosen"?

13) Is God vindictive? Is His forgiveness conditional and what are those conditions?

14) How does one know that they are "chosen"?

15) Does God "choose" or does he "save"?

Ngisizeni zihlobo ngingakalahlwa.

Ungangisiza mnakwethu ngokuphendula le imibuzo.

INTO YO KUQALA MFOWETHU MANGIBINGELELE- BESENGIBONGA WENA ke NDUNANKULU NGESIKHATHI SAKHO ONGINIKEZASONA.
Please not that l wasn't answering imubuzo ye predestination when l was numbering those point- l just wanted to establish some foundation of understanding and not urguring but to try to get to establish the truth in this matter ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD.

Spruce usulahlekile,

You suppose that Gods predestination begins with a human beings choice. Totally unscriptural and can never be the case. Human beings have to come to the truth that we are all creatures that is created beings. Therefore it forever remains that we are not equal with God therefore there is never a time that one can think do anything outside the foreknowledge and determination of God who has always ever existed before us.

Therefore to argue using clear linear logic, How is it possible that God waits for humans to make a choice before he begins a relationship with God is Illogical. Then we would have to say that Jesus Christ would have to die on the cross at the end after all human beings have made their respective choices either way. However the Bible teaches a totally different scenario, That Jesus Christ was cruscified before the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world is before even a single molecule of matter was created when there was nothing except God himself that is God the Father, God Jesus Christ the Son and God The Holy Spirit. At that time in eternity Elohim transliterated "GODS" predestined all that ever comes to pass in created time.

Turning specifically to The cruscifiction of Jesus Christ which is the determining fact that takes away the sin of a particular human being apart from Jesus Christ, It was at that time in eternity that Elohim "GODS" determined the death of Jesus Christ.

Now why all these facts? I draw your attension that it is impossible for a created human being to go back in time and make a choice that Elohim has already willed and set to be in all eternity. So now we can clearly state that it is not the choice or the will of a human being to be in relationship with Elohim. Now scriptural verses to prove this . Amoungst many I will begin with

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Now clearly the relationship to attain to eternal life is to be a Son of God. This is not possible to be by the choice or will of a human being.

Now my brothers note this anyone who does become a Son of God was in eternity before the foundation of the world predestined to this fact.



Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


OOOOO How wonderful draw your eyes to verse 11 God works all things after the counsel of his own will.

So my brothers there is no human will that makes us saved it is Gods particular will and when the Spirit of God which is God resides in you you then make a choice for God but clearly it is the Spirit making you to chose and to know and have a relationship for Jesus Christ in whom we are saved.

So yet again GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ALL THINGS THAT EVER COME TO PASS IN TIME.

Yes now that we can show that everything that happens was as a direct result of Gods pre determined descision and will when it was just Elohim in eternity we can attempt to investigate the coming into time the existence of evil.

Now taking it from the top Satan is the means by which all evil comes into play into the world in time as we experience it. Scripture is clear that Satan is a created being like every other creature. Therefore his role and Activities in the world and in time are as a result of Gods righteous Judgement. Noting here that Gods will is revealed in his Judgements and all his Judgements are right, righteous, all knowing and etrnal and immutable that is they cannot be changed.

So immediately we sinnful creatures must accept that evil exists because of Gods righteous decree and judgment and we are compelled whether we understand it or not to conceed that whatever God does is good and righteous and unquestionable. Equally true is that whatever Satan does is evil and under the control of God.

Neh 9:6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all [things] that [are] therein, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.




Ecc 8:2 ¶ I [counsel thee] to keep the king's commandment, and [that] in regard of the oath of God.


Ecc 8:3 Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him.


Ecc 8:4 Where the word of a king [is, there is] power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?




Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.


Job 9:11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see [him] not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.


Job 9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?


Here please bear with me It was my intension to show that whatever God does in essense is beyond comprehension to us in the fullest meaning ever to be accomplished by humans. Therefore we should endeavour never to question things beyond scriptural revelation. But to humble ourselves knowing that the activities of Satan are evil from Satan but righteous from Gods eternal predestination and decree and judgement.

Once we clearly ascetain the existence of evil in scriptural terms we will begin God willing to have wisdom in the full counsel of God in his redemptive purposes of the Elect of God because it will only be given to us the elect to understand parts of the revelation and counsil of the Almighty God and Creator To him be the Glory forever and ever through Jesus Christ my lord Amen

Hi Welly - well understood my friend but l think we don't really look at the same level- but looking at predestination is conditional as l read and understand That from the very beggining God did not plan for Adam and Eve to fall into sin.

Gen 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to farm the land and to take care of it.
Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man. He said, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden.
Gen 2:17 But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die."
Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is right for him."
Gen 2:19 The LORD God had formed all the wild animals and all the birds out of the ground. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called each creature became its name.
Gen 2:20 So the man named all the domestic animals, all the birds, and all the wild animals. But the man found no helper who was right for him.
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused him to fall into a deep sleep. While the man was sleeping, the LORD God took out one of the man's ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
Gen 2:22 Then the LORD God formed a woman from the rib that he had taken from the man. He brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She will be named woman because she was taken from man."
Gen 2:24 That is why a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, but they weren't ashamed of it.

This was the predestination of God but when the sin came in it was a defferent storry and God had to remove them out of the Garden of Eden and they had to work for their everything- and this was not the plan of God for them.
One thing that we need to look at is the parable of the prodigald son - we choose - we are not forced to worship God- otherwise if that's what God has planned for us then why does he have to judge us?

Joh 3:16 God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
Joh 3:18 Those who believe in him won't be condemned. But those who don't believe are already condemned because they don't believe in God's only Son.

God is fair - if that's the case,that everything was laid down for us then why does He has to send us to Hell?- It's our choice how we gonna be-
Look at the scripture that is on top - Jesus came to save the world or to reconcile us back to the father- Jesus is the redeeemer- but those who won't beleive they are already condemned because they don't believe in Jesus.

There is a set life by God, for everyone thats true but if don't follow His commands then you are out of His will.

Joh 15:4 Live in me, and I will live in you. A branch cannot produce any fruit by itself. It has to stay attached to the vine. In the same way, you cannot produce fruit unless you live in me.
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine. You are the branches. Those who live in me while I live in them will produce a lot of fruit. But you can't produce anything without me.
Joh 15:6 Whoever doesn't live in me is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Branches like this are gathered, thrown into a fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you live in me and what I say lives in you, then ask for anything you want, and it will be yours.

-THAT'S THE DEAL OR ELSE FORGET -

It's not me it's the word of God-

take time to read the reply l gave to Siphepheli- and analzie from the word of God.

Hie there Spruce lets take it one at a time. Now if Adam falling into sin was not known to God before hand and it was not part of the counsel of God and it still happenned it means now my freind you worship a God who is not Almighty ,omnipotent, all knowing past present and future. It means your god is useless he cannot pre plan and engages in crisis management like the Zimbabwe government pardon my pun here. Look mate if you ever went into theological circles and argued your point here you would be thrown out immediately.

The very essence of the word God means that him in being knows all your thoughts, motives, actions everything even what you will do to all eternity. Now tell me how could he have missed knowing that when he planted the forbidden fruit right in the middle of the garden then the humans would not have stumbled on it to all eternity. Know my friend then if God did not plan their falling into sin it would be outright stupidity to plant the tree in the middle of the Garden. Hey tell me was God sleeping when the devil began talking to Eve why did he not intervene did he not know in advance she was going to fall for the trap. Your god Spruce is very ignorant I certainly would not want to worship a weakling who doesnt know what his creation will do in advance, maybe they can even dethrone him in future etrnity then.

Now Spruce go back again and rethink your theology it is totally obsurd and unscriptural for you to boldy say "his was the predestination of God but when the sin came in it was a defferent storry and God had to remove them out of the Garden of Eden and they had to work for their everything- and this was not the plan of God for them."

So now your god can be forced into a corner by circumstances brought about by his creation.

I think mate you need to know That the Almighty YAHWEH is all knowing past present and future at all times since ever. He has always existed uncreated inhabits eternity and time. Knows the thoughts actions of all creatures, animals, angels, human beings, devil, demons. He knows what you will think say and do before you do or think it always. HE NEVER CHANGES That is everything that ever comes to pass was to be determined by his counsel in eternity. He never varies nor needs advice and no one or anything can resist his will. Spruce Im sure you have a different God to the God of the Bible who is the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacob.

Careful it is a sin even to think that God does not know anything and is a proreactor to the actions of men. God has power over all created beings or matter. Please read your scriptures then we can have a meaningful debate on the scriptural content of the Bible.

Welly
The day we will discovered that this "White God or White Jesus" does not exist, that would be the day all of Africa would be saved. Fools say in their hearts amadlozi awekho. My destination is predetermined by amadlozi wami.

Hi Well pliz don't be ANGRY with me - MINA ngiya vumelana nawe ma uthi God KNOWS EVERYTHING -He all powerful and He is the alfa and omega - Before God Created the earth He knew what was going to happen and has from the beggining known all things but where l don't agree nawe is when you say ukuthi laba bantu abanga labudlelwano no Nkulunkulu it is God's plan- God's plan for every is that we might know Him through His Son who is Jesus.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleases God our Savior.
1Ti 2:4 He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth.
1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans-a human, Christ Jesus.
1Ti 2:6 He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era.

If God has set everything as you put it why do we Pray?
Why should we seek Him as He instruct us in His word,

sa 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found. Call on him while he is near.
Isa 55:7 Let wicked people abandon their ways. Let evil people abandon their thoughts. Let them return to the LORD, and he will show compassion to them. Let them return to our God, because he will freely forgive them.
Isa 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways," declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."

You must understand one thing l'm not fighting against you but trying to show you what l understand in His word and pliz can you put/ refer to scriptures not your opinion but let the word bring the truth not church dotrine- because here it's not what the Church says but what the Bible says put the verses in your what ever you putting across.
IF l'm wrong then you need to show me clearly that how can l have been in God' plan without me having Jesus as my Saviour.

Mayed l'm also failling to understand somewhere across the lines but still - if There are people excluded in this wonderful life after death how then are some people not part made not to enter because God says that He loved this world so much that He gave His only beggoten Son- to bring us back to himself.

One more thing b4 l go can answer the questions that our Brother Siphepheli asked-

Now to clearly even to begin to understand holy Scripture is to acknowledge that The God of Abraham is Omnipotent. This means that he is ALLmighty and above all. He created everything that there is that the human eye can and cannot see.The whole of creation entirely has its being and functions and moves empowered by him alone. That is there is no part of creation that is independant of the creator. Also of note is that the creator he himself is free from any limitation whatsover and we the creation are limited to him excusively.

Further of note is that all that ever comes to pass has been ordained by God himself to be in time and space therefore in layman terms nothing ever happens in time that the creator has not ordained to happen. There is not even a single bird that falls to the ground that he is unaware of.

Now human beings have a difficulty in comprehending this and unless the Creator himself gives you the ability to understand this and to live by it you continue to have your being alienated from him and are in darkness not apprehending the power and sovreignity of God.

Now even an infedel should be able to ask " if there is a God? " he sees that implies he knows everything always in advance and has power over all things, " why does he allow i.e evil to happen?"

Now this is the fundermental understanding as anyone might begin to learn and to inquire on the workings and power of God. Now I find any human being not taking time to ponder and explore these things to be uterlly foolish as this is the only needful thing anyone could ever gain out of this created world.

Now back to predestination, demonstrative of Gods immense powers i can only deduce that he being ever existing as he was ever existing, before he created anything he determined and passed judgement as to what should ever happen throughout all eternity even in time and space. Take note it is even God himself who will bring time to an end and revert creation to an eternal state.

Now I dare say that if anything ever happens outside the scope of what God has predetermined to be, then essentially there would be another power above his and therefore he would not be god but the entity that has overpowered him and done something outside the scope which he in his power has set in advance.

So Spruce you are utterly confused and unable to clearly define what predestination is and its scope and power. You remind me of the saying that says DONT BE LIKE AN OSTRITCH THAT STICKS ITS HEAD IN THE SAND IN THE FACE OF DANGER. The very actions of Satan have been predestined by God himself. Satan has his power and existance from God and is not a power unto himself. The scriptures even detail the final crush that god will do away with him in time. I call this predestination mate. The book of Revelations is essentially predestination and all things mentioned there will occur exactly and explicitly as detailled and even the particular human beings in that time have been already decreed by God , who their mothers, fathers, brothers rulers ,will be.

SPRUCE THE FUTURE CANNOT BE ALTERED JUST LIKE HISTORY CANNOT BE ALTERED

Somehow people grapple with these truths explicitly laid out in the scriptures. STUDY THE SCRIPTURES THEY ALL REVEAL JESUS CHRIST

Thanks Welly
Please may you fill me in with this situation where God Jehovah gives choice and freewill allowing people to do according to their individual choices but under the jurisdiction of his Word so that at the time of judgemnt He is found to be the true Judge. Is it not the will of God that all men should come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and not die without the knowledge of His Son. Surely God will not predestinate a single soul to go to hell. So do not some things happen outside of God s doing, such that the faltering then face His wrath

Angazi mfowethu uma ungangivumela ngingenele kancane.

Okwakuqala, UNkulunkulu wayekhona njalo, ekuqaleni! Uma umbhalo uthi "ekuqaleni" awutsho ukuba uNkulunkulu ulesiqalo, kodwa utsho ukuba wayevele ekhona njalo njalo! Izinto zonke zidalwe nguye. Ekudaleni izinto lapha, uzidalele izizatho ezisenhlizweni yakhe. Ukuze izifiso kumbe injongo yakhe ifezeke kufanele abe edale izinto zonke ngokuqonda njalo ejonge impumela yezifiso zakhe. Ngakho sithi into yonke yenzeka ngoba iqondiswa nguNkulunkulu efeza intando yakhe! Kutsho ukuthi lokhu esithi yi kukhetha komuntu yinto evele yabekwa nguNkulunkulu. Abakhetha usindiso labangakhethi usindiso bonke bakhetha ngokuqondiswa nguNkulunkulu. Uma ukukhetha komuntu kungekho ngaphansi kwamandla ka Nkulunkulu, kutsho ukuthi uNkulunkulu kasiye Somandla! Ukuba ngu Somandla kutsho ukuba ulamandla phezu kwezidalwa zakhe zonke! Izinto ezinengi empilweni kasizikhethi. Wena awuzange ukhethe abazali bakho, awuzange ukhethe ukuzalelwa kwa Mgotsi, awuzange ukhethe inwele zakho ... kanjalo kanjalo. Phoke amampunge la athiwa lukhetho lomuntu ayini? Ize neze... into engekho! Uma umuntu ezalwa ngokutsha, angezeke akhethe, ngoba kungelamuntu ongakhetha abazali engakazalwa. Kungakho usindiso ngumsebenzi kaMoya Oyingcwele, akusukukhetha komuntu. Uma thina sibheka ngamehlo enyama sithi uzibani ukhethe uJesu. Kodwa ngempela ngempela akunjalo. UNkulunkulu nguyeke okhetha isoni, asisindise. UJesu uthi, "Akula ongeza kimi ngaphandle kokuba ekuphiwe ngu Baba" Kuthiwa ukukholwa kuyisiphiwo sikaNkulunkulu. Manje abanye bathi phoke kungani uNkulunkulu ecala abantu uma kunguye owenza abantu bale izwi lakhe. Lo ngumbuzo olula kakhulukazi. Uyabona, thina siyizidalwa. Ukudalwa kwethu akusiso sifiso sethu. Ngakho uNkulunkulu uyazikhethela ukuba enzeni ngathi, ngamunye ngamunye. Uma ethi uzibani yizibi ngizaphosela esihogweni, uzibani ngizamsindisa, konke lokhu kuligunya, kusentandweni lemandleni akhe! UNkulunkulu ulegunya lokwenza ingabe yilokho akufisileyo ngezidalwa zakhe. Ngakho akula bunzima obukhona lapha. Okwenza abantu bangemukeli iqiniso leli yikuba abantu bazibona bengonkulunkulu, bathi bafuna ukuzikhethela. UNkulunkulu kasidalelanga ukuba sikhethe, kodwa ukuba silandele imilayo leziqondiso zakhe! Lokhu akusilo ke ukhetho kodwa yimfanelo!
Ngcono ngime lapha kancane!

omnyama

OMNYAMA
The will of God is that all men may be saved. The fact that there is God s will presupposes that there is also someone else s will which can happen if the will of God is not obeyed. While God is above all things and all things consist in him He has given the world his will and an open playing field where his will can be obeyed or not. It is not God s will or ordination when one can fly a jumbo jet filled with souls through a building. Such an act is not achieved through the power of God. It is done through some other power although not free from God, is however operating in disobedience. Whosoever does such an act stands answerable to God on that day , the grand finale , so to speak. We cant say the Lord allowed such an act to happen either.

mfethu ,unjani, usaphila kodwa, phila mina ngisaphila.of all thing i bhayibhili i fear it. all i know is that there were wars also in the bible God used to lead or protect his men during wars.let us not bring the bible into this war.we are a god fearing nation

Bazalwane.

linjani lonke?

lindaba ye-predestination ingathi ilukhunyana, kanti njalo leBhayibheli lami lanyamalala lemithwalo kwiKLM, lingixolele angenelisi ukucaphuna encwadini, bengicela ukuba omunye achaze acacise ngalelivesi ngizalizama ngekhanda;

For God so loved the world that He gave it His
only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in
in Him should not perish but have everlasting
life. Jhn 3:16

i'm more interested on the WHOSOEVER part of it, in view of predestination of cause, is the term all inclusive or it has some limitations?

ngiyabonga.

Emz
Lathi siyabonga
Ngokuzwisisa kwami u"whosoever" can be taken in its literal meaning kungelahlupho nje. Inkinga ilapha ma usukhuluma ngabo "believes" ngoba imibhalo icina ifika kwezinye indawo ekhuluma ngokuthi "faith without works is dead faith" or he who believes is such and such...etc etc. So u"whosoever" is iloba engubani, as long as such a one believes. Yena lomuntu okholwa kanjalo it means, has been chosen according to election of grace, hatshi ngendlela esikhetha ngayo thina esifika sithi wena, lalo, lalo, ngenani hatshi lo lalo lalowana lingangeni. Yena ukukhetha kwakhe uMdali uthi "abazahamba" kanje kumbe "abazaphila" kanje sebekhethiwe and predestinated. This includes even those that may not yet be born.

Ngiyabonga MTHWE,
Ukubala indima ibenye emibhalweni kuzala ukungazwisisi ngokupheleleyo ibhayibhili, langokusanganiseka ingqondo. Abakholwayo, yibobodwa uNkulunkulu abakhethileyo. Abakhethileyo, yibobodwa abakholwayo. UNkulunkulu wathumela iNdodana yakhe ukuba izofela izono zalabo bodwa. U Jesu akafelanga wonke umuntu. Ngabe uJesu wafela izono zabantu bonke jikelele, ngabe akula muntu oya esiHogweni. Izono ezihlawulelwe ngumhlatshelo wokufa kukaJesu emqamlezweni, uNkulunkulu akazibaleli kulabo abathole ukuthethelelwa ngokufa kwakhe. Kungakho kungumcabango ogobileyo ukuthi abanye abantu uJesu abafelayo baya esiHogweni. Intando kaNkulunkulu ngokusindiswa komuntu kayeyamelanga entandweni yalowo odinga ukusindiswa. Abathole insindiso, UNkulunkulu wabakhetha umhlaba ungakabikho! Ngakho ukusindiswa kwabo akusuki ekukhetheni kwabo. Kungumusa kaNkulunkulu nje!

Kuyintando kaNkulunkulu uma indoda idakwa, ifike emzini wayo itshabalalise umndeni wayo ngesibhamu! Uma kungasiyo ntando kaNkulunkulu ngeke kwenzeke! Lokhu yinto nje emgceke. Ukuthi abantu bakuthola kunzima ukuba bakwamukele lokhu, akulani lokuqiniseka kwakho. Uthi uJehova inkosi yamabandla,Isiah 45:5-7 --" I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]........

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

omnyama

Thanks Welly
Please may you fill me in with this situation where God Jehovah gives choice and freewill allowing people to do according to their individual choices but under the jurisdiction of his Word so that at the time of judgemnt He is found to be the true Judge. Is it not the will of God that all men should come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and not die without the knowledge of His Son. Surely God will not predestinate a single soul to go to hell. So do not some things happen outside of God s doing, such that the faltering then face His wrath


FREEWILL

This is where sinfull humanity looses its plot with relation with its maker. Where in the Bible does it tell you you were given FREEWILL. Certainly your sinful mind has coined it into the scriptures. There is nowhere in the Genesis account where Adam was created and given the Choice to either choose God or choose the devil using his freewill.


Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So see clearly the teaching in the scriptures that all humanity except Christ were born dead in sins. The emphasis dead is what freewill or choice does a dead corpse have? NONE AT ALL

Unless a man is BORN AGAIN surely he CANNOT CANNOT SEE HEAVEN because he is born dead in tresspasses and sins. What freewill did people in Africa have to get to heaven before the Gospel arrived "NON AT ALL"Even if the Gospel arrives unless you are born again you cannot use freewill to be born again that is wholely an act of God. If you can make yourself or use choice or freewill to believe God, then you negate Jesus Christ as your saviour it is no longer Grace but works.

As the scriptures say

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Where is the FREEWILL of Adams posterity in choosing whether to be sinners or not nether is there FREEWILL in many being made RIGHTEOUS. Surely scripture is clear as a magnifying glass. You have to be insane to think that you can exersise freewill when you approach God. That is absolute nonsense. Thats why we use the Bible you cannot just use the koran to come to God or brew beer like foolish humans to draw closer to God.

You people hate predestination because you feel you have to be given freewill. Now will you counsel God on what and what not to do, You are absolutely sinfull and presumptious of the Majesty and power of God. Dont you know that God is AUTOCRAT AND ABSOLUTE RULER.

Gods power is ABSOLUTE AND ARBITRARY without question. GOD decrees the end from the begginning, his rule is from generation unto generation to all eternity without end from eternity. That should not be a question at all. Listen you people nothing is self existant in ceation only God is self existant and eternal.

So before we exergit scripture on the other points who can clearly demonstrate that they are free from God to make their own choices after all that is what FREEWILL IS. Then we can go on.

However as for me I worship God because he has made me righteous in Christ and I was elected by God himself for the very purpose. Thats why I call on the name of Jesus Christ because he is my saviour. He is the only name given under heaven in which any man is saved. Saviour means I couldnt do it on my own I needed Jesus Christ to do it on my behalf.

So you freewiils be careful you might just die in your freewill sins, Give up this blasphomous talk and submit yourselves under the hand of the ALL ALL ALMIGHTY.

linjani bazalwane?

WELLY
Ngiyabonga baba. Makukahle ngingacela ukhangele kahle iposting yami, you even quoted it which means as you write yours you are looking at mine.My posting is full of questions, my opening line Im actally requesting you to fill me in. Pho manje kutheni mfowethu?

Mthwebula1 Clearly my post is to demonstrate to you that you do not have a choice or freewill with God. God does not consult you or any human being in his decrees on what will happen and not happen on earth in the course of history. Yes humans have a will but that will has no power over or in anyway does it determine Gods eternal decrees. God consulted non of his creatures before he created them and neither does he seek their will today or in future. There is no indesisiveness with God. So when you say that god gave us freewill and choice to do this or that, this is a very erraneous statement which can never be supported by scripture.

We all humans after Adam are conceived is sin and sinners apart from Christ who was without sin. All the elect of God are conceived into righteousness as a free gift from God, this is what the Bible says "BEING BORN AGAIN, THE SECOND BIRTH, BIRTH OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD". All these conceivings so to speak is the will of God and has nothing to do with the will of human beings.

By the disobedeince of Adam all human beings apart from Jesus Christ are made sinners this is a fact and has nothing to do with the will of a human being, It is Gods will. By the obedeince of Jesus Christ all the ELECT, GODS CHOSEN ONES are made RIGHTEOUS, again this is a fact and has nothing to do with the will of Human beings, ITS GODS WILL.

Now please can someone tell me is there any difficulty in understanding these simple basic truths that can never change, past present and future. Listen in heaven not a single soul not Chosen by God unto eternal life will ever attain to the heavenly abode. Yes God still requires that the non elect live a sinless life from birth to death and if they dont, " AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THEY NEVER DO " God will avenge for their sins done in the body and theirs is eternal damnation in the lake of Fire.

Gentlemen surely you cannot complain of Gods severity against the Guilty. God will never let the Guilty go free. Why do you think we the saved Love God fervently and contend for the Faith in season and out of season. For the very fact that we know that God has given us GRACE which is impossible for a human being to attain to. But hey nothing is impossible with God. And if some of our children brothers or relatives dont attain to heaven God has assured us he will wipe the drastic pain away in heaven. Surely how do you think Abraham felt when God rejected Ishmael, or when Issac's favourite son Esau was rejected and hated by Allmighty God. They never had a choice but to submit to Gods will.

BESIDES NOT A SINGLE CREATURE CAN WITHSTAND GODS WILL AT ANYTIME IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED AND WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN IN ETERNITY.

So please brothers lets begin on these basic points before we go to mature spiritual things, besides what is the definition of GOD. HIS very essence is that he is omnipotent.

Grace to you in the faith
Yours in Christ Amen

Welly
And there you continue.Just what is wrong? I m saying to you, all I have done is ask you to explain something which I did not understand. What are you angry about. I asked you about freewill and choice.If there is no such thing just say so. I m not suggesting that there is.I just wanted to know if there is. You have a sharp tongue. "absolute nonsense" is too harsh to direct to me when all I done was to ask for an explanation. "insane etc" Change your language, season your language, speak as becometh the gospel. How many ARE YOU GOING TO WIN TO THE GOSPEL MA UKHULUMA KANJE PHAKATHI KOMPHAKATHI. I read somewhere in the bible where God is encouraging me to choose between life and death. He says I have put before you life and death but you choose life. I would discuss a lot of things with you but the way you talk its like we will do more damage than good to the Kingdom by the end of the day. Its like you got an argument in your head already but dont accuse me of it. IN MY POST i NEVER EVEN CLAIMED ANYTHING OR ASSERTED ANYTHING, I ONLY ASKED YOU A QUESTION. I am totally embarassed. Everybody ubhekile nje uthi bona abazalwane

welly

ngikuzwe kahle mfowethu/mzalwane, uthi wena God created sinners and requires them to live sinless lives and He knows beforehand that they'll never do the contrary and thereafter God is going to deflagrate them esihogweni? ngiqondise mhlawumbe angikutholi kahle.

Purely factual pardon the directness of my tone however it is not my intension to bear harm to yourself. It is most importance to clearly lay out that which is wisdom and foolishness. When my brother we delve into scriptural exegesis we are dealing with eternal life and eternal death. We seek truth and eliminate error whether in my person or anyone elses who dares ponder these things that pertain to the etrnal destinies of our souls. Hence I am not hear to seek freindship or communes I leave that tfor my Church. Hear I am in deffense of the truth as I have read it and understood it and should I be guilty of foolishness and evil so be it and may the Lord have mercy on my soul. That being out of the way we are in a war with evil forces and we engage as such. Evil forces seek distort truth and such we will label it. Surely my brother you can take the heat of battle.

Back to the point The Bible teaches clearly that from the fall of Adam Humanity became evil corrupt and an enemy hating God. Now God is Holy and never acepts sin so he demands that humans obey and worship him and to choose him. The question is does a human being posses a will to choose God and to worship him 24/7 so to speak. Well clearly in scripture there is non righteous no not one


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So take note there is not a single human being who is not evil. So now if you are evil you cannot do that which is righteous as to Choose God, However this does not negate Gods righteousness in demanding you to act righteously. Adam was created righteous so you cannot blame God for your inability to do that which he demands of you. Adam was created with capability to do all that God requires but lost it when he of his own freewill Chose to disobey. When Adam fell my brother you lost that freewill that Adam had instead that freewill is free to sin continually 24/7. Scripture teaches that we are slaves to sin i.e free from righteousness and a slave to sin.

However as we acertained earlier the unfolding of History is non the less the will of God according to his eternal decrees. So what shall we conclude if all humans always do the will of God can we then say that there is evil with God , surely may God forbid such thoughts




Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Here Romans 9:19 tells us no one resists what God wills them to do so then the Holy spirit knowing our sinful minds asks exactly what everyone asks then why does God Judge people for the evil which he wills them to do? Hey read the answer for yourselves in verse 20. Look at verse 22 God has specifically allowed the vessels of wrath i.e the people going to hell to commit their evil designs of their heart so he will demonstrate his power of wrath on them when he torments them in hell and when he damns them into the lake of fire.

Watch what God does in verse 23 these are the elect the vessels of mercy, he demonstrates and shows forth his love and forgiveness to them by preparing them beforehand for Glory. Now tell me brother how can God forgive a vessel of mercy if it had not sined. Thats illogical cant you see this.

Read the whole chapter surely its enough to shut every human beings mouth


Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

You see God has made sure that all humans are guilty before him so unless he has mercy on you surely you will never exersise your sinful will and choice to choose him mate and thats the truth.

REJOICE IF GOD HAS SHOWN MERCY ON YOU AND KNOW THAT IT IS A FREE GIFT.

MY BROTHER SURELY YOU HAVE HEARD THAT GOD HAS CREATED ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF.

Now my brother all things means all things and god is the disposer of all things. Do you not know my brother that God is the one who Justifies the evil. There is not a single soul that can be Justified infront of god never. I am running out of library time but will rake up the verses for you. Tyr using http://www.blueletterbible.org and search all verses with " all things"

Remember all things he created them to Glorify Jesus Christ. even sinners are created to be judged by him or else if there were not there he wouldnt be a judge. Surely you can at least see this. You would never have sex and have children if God did not create your wife would you ?

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

So you see my brother truely the Lord has created all things even if we humans cannot understand everything into these things but this i know the lord has called into existence all things that are whether we see them or not.


Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So you see that Gods election is that no man shall ever stand before God and boast that he of himself has chosen God but rather that we shall be humble before him for his praise in him doing that which we could never do which is to do that which is noble and Choose him. If you do not have the Spirit of God in you which is given by the will of god only you cannot nor indeed ever come to know God truely or worship him truely. You remain evil continually of you own evil sinful will. However read galatians and Romans and the fruit of the Spirit of Jesus Christ is that you will become a slave of righteousness. This is how we discern if we ourselves have been made children of God or not and this is how we recognise that so and so have been born again. If you see yourself persistently oppose the word of god and are living in sin notably the sin of sexual impurty this is the mark of them that are of the world for they do those things of the world and their father is the devil. however since election is by Grace never ever suppose that so and so will never be born again because the exact time of rebirth of the Spirit is according to the will of God. the theif on the cross was given repentence at the last moment of his death on the cross, so unless someone has blsphemed the Spirit of God they remain candidates for salvation. Yes we humans can never know that this one is elect or not it is Gods perogative and he hides these things from man. It is given to us to run the races before us, but never ever suppose that one can manipulate or do things unknown to God. Hey why dont you ask God this in your prayers I am sure he will reveal it them he Loves.

Grace and peace in Christ.

Amen


CONSIDER THIS ALSO BROTHERS IF GOD DID NOT RESTRAIN HUMAN EVIL WE WOULD HAVE ALL ANAHILATED OURSELVES A LONG TIME AGO. THAT IS IF GOD ALLOWED US TO HAVE FREEWILL IT WOULD BE A DISASTER. NEVER THINK THAT YOU HAVE NOT PHYSICALLY MURDERED ANYONE BECAUSE OF YOUR FREEWILL,THIS IS A LIE IT IS GODS RESTRAINT ON EACH AND EVERY HUMAN AND IT IS HIM WHEN HE RELEASES THIS RESTRAINT PARTICULARLY ON THOSE THAT MURDER PHYSICALLY. I THINK ANY RATIONAL BEING CAN DEDUCE THE ANSWER ALWAYS ASKED " IF GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE SO MUCH EVIL"

There have been those who have asked if there is a God why did so and so die or why was my child raped? The answer is in the Bible. The only truth there is . No other religion can clearly explain what is going on in the world but Jesus Christ gives the truth and actually saves a remnant of us.

Welly you know well i dont not agree with none this,that u are saying,"for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed in him shall"..........,that should highlight something about God's love towards his people.

Hie there mate and yes I know we disagree and I have facts to back it up. Just to aid you along I have highlighted the above phrase from yourself. You see mate I have alwaysed insisted that God has an eternal Love for his people and an eternal Hatred for the Children of Satan. You see mate when you are dealing with God you have to conceed that He is ETERNAL and his descisions have ETERNAL consequenses either way. Add to the paradigm that GOD NEVER CHANGES I am sure you will spare me the trouble of backing these things in scripture.

So now The fact is that everyone is born in the flesh as a child of the devil with evil spirits except Jesus Christ who was beggotten of God himself by the Holy Spirit. Now why did Jesus come into the world is to effect the transaction that was agreed before the world was created to purchase the part of humanity that God was going to adopt as his Children.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now if you care to look closely into these passages you will notice that God is in the enterprise of Adoption. Now I dont think I will ever come across a Child who determines who will adopt him, this is senseless it is the would be parents who choose who to adopt and who not to adopt given the choice of several children up for adoption. So mate God bears the absolute discretion who to adopt and who to leave in the hands of satan. Besides if God has not chosen to adopt you this is what he does to you............




Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:


Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Besides Mahlab'ayithwale if you are non elect God has already given you the Spirit of the Devil so that you may not see and understand and give glory to him, thats why non true believers always refuse to submit to the power of God to do as he Wills.



Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:


Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

You see mate or rather you are blind to the fact that God opens the eyes of the ELECT so that they may see and speaks in parables to the NONELECT so that they never understand and thus your sins are never forgiven and you go straight to hell for the sins you commit.

There is Gods election and predestination written all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation but you non believers always resist and complain yet you sin everyday and dont realise that only the elect ever get to go to heaven. Look there is only two possible ways to get to heaven 1) NEVER SIN FROM BIRTH TO DEATH AND DO ALL THE LAW 2)GOD CHOOSES YOU AND DIES TO WIPE AWAY YOUR SIN AND COMES TO EARTH AND DOES THE LAW ON YOUR BEHALF

Clearly since you are not GOD my brother you cannot do number 2. Sorry mate since you are born with sin you cannot do the first one either so you are a sitting duck ready to be shot and killed. In small words it is impossible for a human being to ascend to heaven but what is impossible with man is possible with God.

I will continue to preach the truth coz anyway i will receive a crown in heaven,so try and look for scripture to refute the above. Oh yes by the way you people always say that one must not read the bible too much. So you shall reap what you sow and hey at the end of the road it will just prove how ignorant you have been in this life by not taking the time to ponder and research Gods word. Jesus told Martha that her sister Mary chose what is better by choosing to listen to Jesus and sitting by his feet rather than chasing fancifull earthly endeavours and trying to be a billlionaire. You Guys dont bother to read the bible day in and day out till you understand but you presume to know Gods ways without having the verses. I am not trying to do you down but to challenge you to read before you assume.

Now to the verse yu quoted




Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are two types of people mentioned here those who believe and those who dont. The holy spirit here speaks of them in the past tense coz in the mind of God he already knows who are his and who will believe. This verse is not saying that God LOVES EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING and then contradicts and say some of these very human beings are condemned for not believing. This is ludicrous. There is no confusion with God. HE Knows who believe and those who dont . Besides when he puts his Spirit in you , you then believe. Is that not so. When he refuses to give you his Spirit it is impossible to believe. I think some of these things are basic Logic if you care to sit down and think them through.

4

Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,


Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;


Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

I put these verses here to show you all that it is God who inhabits all to produce the faith to believe in him. Now unless you are Totally mad it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that God is not in every single human being. Even I who has been a mental institution can easily interpretate to know that here the Holy Spirit is speaking to those who believe who have the Holy Spirit. These are those who were predestinated and Loved by God and are his people.

Kambe iBible lithethisile yini when it is clear God Loves his people and Hates those who are not his. He gives his people his Holy Spirit so that they believe and go to heaven coz Jesus Christ died for them. I think anyone who assumes Jesus Christ died for every single human being and God has put his Holy Spirit to every single human being is foolish becoz only a minority of the six billion people actually believe in Jesus Christ anyway. Even those who say they believe most dont have the spirit.

welly

Jhn3:17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that through Him the world might be saved.

may i ask, please, who are those referred by the text as the world? is the term all-inclusive or is it limited?

ngiyabonga

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Clearly my brother the world is made up of those who believe and those who dont believe. Hence self explanatory we can deduce that the DONT BELIEVES are condemned already and Christ who comes not to condemn but to save the BELIEVERS.Surely we all know that BELIEVERS sin everyday till they die, hence the transaction has to be made so that BELIEVERS are made RIGHTEOUS,JUSTIFIED,SONS ADOPTED,REDEEMED,SANCTIFIED,GLORIFIED IN RESSURECTION,the list of benefits is endless. The NON BELIEVERS are given the same treatment like Cain, Esau,Pharoh i.e God HATDENS THEM"REPROBATION",HOLDS THEM GUILTY,RECOMPENSATED WITH ETERNAL EVIL IN LAKE OF FIRE,FORSAKEN, the list of torments is endless.

The BELIEVERS were chosen by God. The NON BELIEVERS were chosen by God.


Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Please take note The chosing was done before the foundation of the world and the last highlight, because you were chosen in Christ you are deemed FAITHFULL always even if you did not believe the most part of your life like the theif on the cross and were in actual fact not FAITHFULL. Why but your unfaithfullness was a sin paid for by the death of Christ on the cross. Clearly God would be unjust to say you are unfaithfull when he has already forgiven you for that very unfaithfullness.

Pardon me folkes now where realy here am I lost. Let the Bible speak for itself. God is more than capable to defend his HONOUR.

So emz in Laymans terms WORLD in the passage you quoted is not all inclusive. Remmember TRUE ISREALITES are not the physical descendants of Abraham. TRUE ISREALTES are those who have the FAITH OF ABRAHAM according to the promise brought about by the SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST. So next time you see the physical lineage of Abraham banging their heads on the East Wall of Jerusalem Know that you can tell them that we who worship The LORD YAHWE JESUS CHRIST by his HOLY SPIRIT are true Isrealites. Check Romans i think Chapter 7-10, Hence thats when Paul explains predestination hence physical Isreal dont believe by predestination default and we Gentiles believe truely. Even Paul warns us and tells us that Gods ways are unsearchable. If you study Revelations its all PREDESTINATION telling you that all Isreal physical descendants will be made to believe 100% at the end times and Gentiles will be massaccred. Even after the 1000 year reign of Christ there is a predestined remnant who will fall away from belief taking into consideration that duiring the 1000 years all human beings will believe 100% at first even at birth and they will live to almost 1000 years. You will learn from scripture that at those times there will virtually be no death because there will be no sinning when Christ is on the throne. No Lion or snake bites children will be using them as pets. Now call me mad but the Bible says so.

CHEERS FOLKES LOVE U ALL. GREAT DISSCUSSION I THANK THE GOOD LORD FOR THIS THREAD.

welly,

So far so good! Siyavumelana. Kodwa uma ususithi,


... sesikhuthana kancane. Lokhu kuzwakala sengathi yi Dispensationalism. Le yimfundiso engekho emibhalweni. AmaReformers babechasisa ukuba incwadi yeSambulo iveza izinto ezenzeka kusukela uJohani eloba lencwadi kuze kube manje njalo kusiya ekuzeni kweNkosi. I "falling away" okukhulunywa ngayo seyenzeka, ngoba kwakutshiwo ukweduka kwebandla lakuqala lisiba yiRoma. UPapa yiyo i"man of sin" uMpikuKrestu, ozibeka esihlalweni seNkosi azenze uNkulunkulu!
Imfundiso le yalahleka yafiphazwa yi Dispensionalism okukuthi manje abantu sebekholelwa ukuba zonke izinto ezikuSambulo lokhe ziseza. Akunjalo! Iminyaka ezinkulungwane itsho isikhathi eside ukusukela ekwenyukeni kweNkosi kusiya ekuzeni kwayo okwesibili njengomahluli.

omnyama

omnyama, I am not a Dispensationalist I endeavour to study the word and let it speak for itself. If you study the Old testament there is prophescy given that The Lord will regather all of Isreal back to their promised Land as an inheritance forever according to promises made to their forefathers. Unless we are totally blind this has not been fullfilled and Revelations teaches us that God is going to fullfill this by the Second coming of the Messiah. Take note most physical descendants of Abraham are still waiting for the first coming of their perceived Messiah but we know that he was Jesus Christ. If you read Isaih and Zechariah you will notice that they even prophesied that physical Isreal was going to not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. However back to Revelations in basic form it reveals the sequence of events cullminating in the reign of Christ for a 1000 years from his throne in Jerusalem and the subsequent end of the world to Judgement and then eternity. I do not think this is Dispensationalism it is plain teaching of scripture. I suppose you have read Revelations yourself and know that before the second coming of Jesus Christ there will reign on earth the embodiment of Satan himself the antiChrist who will declare himself God, then Christ will descend 3.5 years then to destroy him with all those who worship him except those whom will be preserved from worshipping him. Then thats when I did mention in overall paintbrush the coming in of the 1000 year reign even mentioned in the old testament when there will be RIGHTEOUSNESS on earth and the subsequent peace and tranquility on earth and so forth. Surely every believer should read with scrutiny because we all believers will have a part in the 1000 years though scripture does not detail it much but is clear that we will all return here with Christ to reign with him. If scripture says so then this is a predestinated fact. IT WILL COME TO PASS ACCORDING TO GODS WORD.

There is only one Israel, and circumcision is that of the heart not in the flesh. There is no such thing as "physical Israel". Israel is spiritual. The promises of the inheritence are what we inherit in Christ uma sikholwa kuye, not some desert little place out in the middle of nowhere! Old "physical" Israel was a type of the Church, and the promises pointed to and were fulfiled in Christ.

Waze wangihlekisa! Kusobala ukuba awazi ke ukuba iDispensionalism iyini! Okushoyo kulindima yiyoke iDispensionalism uqobo! Njengoba uku Internet, "google" ukuze ufunde ama errors and distortions of the word of God anjengala owasho lapha.

Njengoba ngishilo ngaphambilini, i"mystery of iniquity" and "the falling away" that Paul refers to was the great apostacy of the first New Testament church. The "man of sin who exalts himself as God" is such obvious reference to the Roman Catholic papal system that it is amazing how any one can miss it. That you can proffer classical dispensionalist teaching on the book of revelation and then blurt, "this is not dispensionalism" is testimony to the incredible damage that this heresy has done to christians! This is like an alcaholic saying, angisisosidakwa mina! It also implies that you do not understand the seriousness and fatal nature of the errors and distortions of the word of God by the Roman Catholic system!
The "last days" refer to the period since the early church to today on to the second coming. The four horsement of the Apocalypse in Revelation are not about some distant future but refer to conditions on earth during this period. There is war, famine, oppression and diseases! All this has been happening with intensity, since John wrote the Apocalypse. It happened during colonialism. Okhokho bethu bathathelwa umhlaba, ngezinye izizwe, thina usapho sacindezelwa, kwaba le First and Second world wars, uStalin, Mussolini lo Hitler between them killed some 50 million people. EChina, Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward(which fell flat on its face) took with it some 20 million Chinese. Then there was Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia. UMgabe, with obvious complicity of the British(there were British military advisers post independence) killed some 20-40 thousand people, in the Midlands and Matebelaland, ngoba bengafuni uNkomo and ZAPU believing they were threats to their vested interest in the mineral wealth yeZimbagwe, which they have exploited since the Rudd Concession. There was Rwanda and Burundi, it is happening in Dafuor, there is the AIDS pandemic, malaria, TB etc etc, hunger. There has been food riots in South America recently which threaten to spread around the world with recent global food price hikes. All this was seen by John, then.
Please welly, makubale, read widely. Do not be wise in your own conceit!

omnyama

omnyama I think lets not spoil this thread and let it be juggled with other matters not refering to PREDESTINATION. I am sure that here lets establish the fact that is unchangeable that God does predestinate all things. This was the jest of all the above arguments.

Of interest though you may want to start a thread of your thinking on the matter to do with Roman Catholics, antiChrist coz basically this notion that you people define Roman Catholicism and antiChrist is baffling.Tell me I think we Zimbabweans have seen more evil manifestations than that. Do we not have a Zimbabwean who said he was God himself and was worshiped in Bulawayo under the church gutaramwari. To me this is the spirit of the antiChrist and not The ANTICHRIST himself who has not come on the world scene yet. either way lets take that discussion to another thread. Your interpretation of the evil in the world today and Revelations is bafling, I can be certain you must be the only one with this view, you sound like a Brahamist they have quiet a story about Revelations but eitherway we need a new thread for that.

omnyama

i hate name praising when it comes to matters of God, lest the man boast and forget his Creator, but with regards to the way you present the truth, as contained in the Holy Scriptures, ngithi Igama leNkosi malidunyiswe, Amen. i hope you won't take this as robbery.

welly

same goes for you may God bless you njalo and never tire searching Scriptures.

let me hasten to say, study the scriptures especially the book of the Revelation, and try to refrain from textual references,rather grasp the contextual meaning of scriptures.

did you notice that the 1000 yrs will commence at the second coming of Christ and the dead in Christ shall rise first and we who are still alive will be caught up with them and meet the Lord in the clouds and go to heaven and be with Christ for a 1000 yrs in heavenly Jerusalem.

and take note that the bad guys don't get up on the second coming and those of them who are alive will be smitten dead by His glory. during the millenium the dead (sinners) will be judged and then resurrected (second resurrection) and the devil will be released from the bottomless pit and he will deceive them for the last time to attack the new Jerusalem which will be descending on this earth, thus when fire and brimestone will issue from God's throne and consume them (hell) and rid this world of sin, and eternity kicks in. God's people will dwell on this new earth forever and evermore.

your views are very much interesting, if i may say it will be nice to conduct a study with someone of your views.

God bless.

The Bible is a unity, if you start on a topic, sooner than later, other matters will crop up. That is NOT "spoiling the topic". It is a natural development of thought!

When you say you think Zimbabweans have seen "more evil than that", this is testimony of your appalling ignorance of history and also how well the Roman Catholic machince has learned to manage its image. Just an example: Christians used to be burned at the stake by Roman Catholics. 70 thousand Protestants were killed on St Bathalomew day http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-StBartho.html
Do you understand what is wrong with Roman Catholicism?
Do you know the doctrines and titles of the pope? Can there be anything more antichrist? Have you read the Foxe's Book of martyes? It documents the systematic murders of saints in the most cruel manner imaginable! Please welly, AKE UFUNDE ..... Please read, study.
Well, why don't you start the thread?
Really? Are plagues, like AIDS, malaria, TB normal to you? Are the mass murders of the 20th century normal to you? Is hunger and starvation normal to you? Do you wish for something more spectacular?
The "last days" are the days since the apostles until the coming of the Lord. It has been 2000 years ... so we are moving ever closer to the coming of the son of man! Those who are so callous and wish for more spectacular evil before they accept that we live in the last days, the day will come upon them unwawres as the bible warns. So be warned!

I do not know what those people teach about the last days but I beleive they think Branham is the last prophet and some such nonsense, basically Dispensionalist understanding of the Apocalypse, and like you, they deny that it is dispensesionalism.

bye,
omnyama

Welly
I wish you would listen. Be swift to hear but be slow to speak.

Hey mate what do you want me to listen to. Do you want me to agree to that we humans do as we please and God is powerless to do anything about it or that human beings self determine their destinies or some other baseless mans theorys that the bible does not teach. Hell no!!!!! so as someone might put it God forbid that I should subject myself to ignorance and blindness to truth as revealed in Holy Scripture.

So clearly say exactly what the Bible says and I will agree, now that is all I ask.

Welly
I m not asking you to agree to anything, no, that is not what I said, not at all. All these are your words that you state. All I said was be swift to hear and be slow to speak. For the gospel is not about word or deed but about power. If you lay your hand upon the sick and they recover thats the gospel. If you present your request to the Lord and we see the answer to your request thats the gospel. Ma uthi "hell" what do you mean? I said to you before, you have a sharp tongue and you did not agree. My desire is that we as christians may remain a light to the world but if the light that is in us is darkness how great is that darkness? If we argue mpaka mpaka we will lose everybody and win arguments but the desire of God is that we may harvest souls. "If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God......" Simple as that. Ma kusehlula, I rest my case. wena qhubeka.

welly

i salute you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

well when it comes to biblical matters we tend to be very argumentative, which is nothing but abuse of the Holy Scripture for, . 2Tim3:16.

we totally agree that nothing happens outside the foreknowledge of God.

however, where you get it all upside down is when and where you assert that nothing happens without the predetrmination or determination of God. you are alleging that rape, adultery, murder, envy,idolatory etc, are all predetermined by God? and on the other hand He gives the ten commandments, God is not a hypocrite, this statement is not only all careless, but treasonous against the government of God, of which Law and Justice are central pillers. how can God be just when others are given an upperhand, in Christ there is no Jew, no Gentile, no slave and no free man, the platform is level, whosoever will let him come. and it is absolutely your choice to be saved, God will never confess your sins or force you to leave them or Love Him.

moreso, you say that the chosen ones will sin and continue doing so until they die, mzalwane if Jesus comes or you die and you are still in sin, you ain't going with Him, for he who is just let him be just still and he who is filth let him be filth still.
we are saved from our sins not in them, this doctrine you are trying to convey, you know very well, that it is very unscriptural and dangerous.

another point you need to know is that God is not an autocrat, but instead He is merciful and He condescends with sinners, he invites them, Isa 1:18 autocrats do not make such invetations towards their subjects mzalwane. we might line up verses but if we don't understand their contents we will find ourselves at the wrong side of the gulf.

the topic on which we need to do a study is: If God is all powerful and all knowing, why then does He permit evil?

I disagree with you mate because in the wisdom of God our contradictions are also a good thing as evident in this passage of scripture

1Cr 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.


1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

So you see Emzy when we disagree about scripture it is also a good thing because then those approved of God will be made manifest that is they will be shown. Equally those who lack consise apprehension of all facets of scripture will be manifest.



Firstly lets define the word FOREKNOWLEDGE

Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence.

Hence we can safely say that God is omniscient that is

om·nis·cient (m-nshnt)
adj.
Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
n.
1. One having total knowledge.
2. Omniscient God

So when you agree with me you will also have to agree to the fact that in Gods FORKNOWLEDGE he knows everything there is to know about evil even if we humans do not. So now if we agree to this irrespective about sentiment about evil God always has known everything that ever comes to pass even before it ever comes to pass and all modalities to its occurance in TIME AND SPACE AND REALITY. Braking it down to brass tax Emzy God has determined the occurrance of EVERYTHING that ever happens in time from before TIME came to being in ETERNITY.

Your emotional outbursts of evil and treasonous accusations wont help your understanding of the issues involved here. If God has predetermined that you Emzy should in time be caught raping and murdering a youg girl, This Emzy you will do to the letter according to Gods determination and it is up to God either to determine to kill Jesus Christ for this sin or to pass ETERNAL DAMNATION for you for this very evil you will do Emzy




Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Emzy of all evil things that any human being can do there is no greater sin as such than that humans Killed and murdered sinless Jesus Christ who is their creator and God will pass Judgement on the pepertrators like Judas to eternal damnation

And yes Emzy using the BIBLES words this was all Gods and i quote " determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God

Now obviously this seems to worry you and you have charged and judged me to be treacherous but however you are proved wrong as YES EMZZY it is exactly ALL GODS DETERMINATE COUNCIL


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Emzy lets study the word and not be emotional now clearly I understand ALL THINGS as being both the existence of EVIL and GOOD are part of creation. Remember we are not the JUDGE we are creatures and take scripture at its word its all true.Also note here that it is God who determined to deliver Jesus Christ to be crusified by sinful men for us the Elect of God.

Here I can safely say along with Paul. "IF GOD IS FOR WELLY THEN WHO CAN BE AGAINST ME" Seeing that it is God who does the determining anyway before anything existed. So my mate you are in a quandry and i myself have God on my side.

Again my brother in the flesh, God never gave the commandments for you to fullfill them because he knows you cannot ever do so in a million years anyway. EMZY you are a sinner like all of us and you cannot do the LAW OR COMMANDMENTS rather you are a LAW BREAKER.


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Now dont ever forget this its very important . The Law is there to teach you that you are a sinner. It cannot be done by you Emzy because read carefully


Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We as sinful humans are unable to continually obey the Law without sin it is impossible only Jesus Christ ever did it. So the Law was given to us as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus Christ for salvation. If you try and honoustly obey the Law Emzy you will agree with me that in no matter of time if you are honest you will go running to Christ to hide you because actually by attempting to do all the Law you will begin to sin more and more. Try it Emzy but know this for a fact you will fail to do all the Law as required by the very Law of God. Only Jesus Christ ever fullfilled the Law and its precepts.

Now I shall again reply the rest of your post God willing I have for today run out of time.

May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you Emzy.

The Justice of God is not dependant on human reason. God is not obliged to do as you would have him do to you. Besides which human being can put a charge of wrong doing to God.Besides God is the potter and we are the clay. Tell me Emzy did Pharoah ever have a choice to be saved or to let the Isrealites go without a fuss. Scripture will prove you wron there Emzy lets chart the sequence of events.


Exd 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Now Emzy it must have missed you but here God has clearly predetermined that Pharaoh shall sin against him by refusing his own commandment to let Isreal Go. To make sure it happens according to plan God even hardens Pharaohs heart, now tell me Emzy what chance did Pharaoh have after the God of all Ages the omnipotent one has hardened his heart even before Pharaoh knew of what was coming. Tell me mate Pharaoh did not even know anything about the God of the Isrealites as the true God. Remember for all Pharaoh knew were dozen Egyptian gods. So clearly Pharaoh had no choice in the matter and if you read on you will discouver that Pharaoh did exactly as God had said he was going to do to him to make him harden his heart and refuse to let Isrealites go. Tell me Emzy what choice did the first born males of the Egyptians have for salvation before God killed them. By the way what of the entire Egyptian army. Surely Emzy after the gruelling ten plaugues wouldnt a human with choice give in and worship the god of Moses, but we see here that their hearts were hardened and God killed their multitudes. Hey Emzy read about the isrealites at the same time they were not very cooperative with Moses but did god wipe them out with plaugues, but no rather he was patient even forgiving them all the time and besides the very isrealites were worshipping Egyptian God when they were in slavery.

talk about fair Emzy you are not convincing me in anything please help me and tell me where in the Bible it says that God is Fair and what this Fairness is. Surely Emzy were you not born a sinner in Adam at birth. Is this Fairness in the meaning of the word. Besides whats fair about Jesus Christ taking the blame for others when he himself never sinned. You see Emzy you will get yourself in a very sticky situation be careful how you describe God and what he does, its best to describe him exactly as the Bible does.




Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Emzy dont ever try and reply against God and demand rules of fairness you will never stand.You are a sinner by birth and you need salvation. Whether God actually grants you repentance is not a matter of your choice Emzy whether you like it or not. If he does not save you, you will surely perish. Lets define the word save

Definitions of save on the Web:

salvage: save from ruin, destruction, or harm
to keep up and reserve for personal or special use; "She saved the old family photographs in a drawer"

bring into safety; "We pulled through most of the victims of the bomb attack"

spend less; buy at a reduced price
feather one's nest; have a nest egg; "He saves half his salary"
make unnecessary an expenditure or effort; "This will save money"; "I'll save you the trouble"; "This will save you a lot of time"

deliver: save from sins

Yes to save is actually a description where what is saved is unable to put its self into safety position.

Emzy you cannot just wake up and choose today hey let me stop sinning and save myself or let me never sin from birth to death.

Those that are Saved by God are saved solely on the account of the will of God himself not of the individual.




Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I need not elaborate its not the will of humans but of God himself Emzy.

Now if you do not like the way God deals with his creation Emzy God does not take formal complaints or suggestions in the matter I do sincerely apologise for those who feel they are not properly or fairly treated by God.But then i know of only one God who exists and I pray he forces me to take it as it is besides i wouldnt know anything any better i am a bred sinner from birth and need salvation to be salvaged.

About God confessing my sins emzy he already did that for me WELLY. When Jesus Christ agreed to be baptised he is God confessing my particular sins from birth to death. Jesus Christ is himself very God incarnate and was without sin. Baptism is for sinners and he himself did not need it but he bowed to the will of his Father to redeem my sins. Jesus Christ could have refused to die on the cross because he was sinnless but Emzy he willingly died for WELLY so that Welly wont undergoe Gods wrath. Jesus Christ descended into sheol. Only sinners are to go there but Emzy he went willingly and I mention again on behalf of WELLY to fullfill the righteous requirement of God on my behalf. It does not stop there Emzy Jesus Christ who is god willingly obeyed all of the LAW on my behalf because he himself is the LAW giver and is not subject to the LAW but I am. Yes there is more Jesus Christ was ressurected to fulfill my ressurection and sits at Gods right hand still intercceeding on my behalf for any sins that i do in the flesh in my time on earth. Now sing with me , IF GOD IS FOR WELLY ,WHO CAN BE AGAINST ME ?

Pardon me Emzy i only say it this way to draw your attenssion to the GOOD NEWS that there is now NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE IN CHRIST.

Now if this does not meet the Fair standards of sinful human beings, well it meets GODS Righteous standard.

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Emzy if you dont ever ask God to create in you a clean heart you will surely perish because the one you were born with never ever wants God it is corrupt and evil to the core. You also need to ask that your soul be renewed thats what the verse refers to as a renew a right spirit within me. Remember those born of the Holy Spirit die into Jesus Christ and are rborn for the second time. Now this is like heart surgery get rid of the old and put new organs inside and renew the soul. This is the essence of Christianity. If you read elswhere there is Prophescy when God fortells of the times he will put a new Spirit in man. So actually Emzy I personnally have been made by God to accept him in the second birth. Now clearly after the second birth thats when I have been made to LOVE God which is the right thing to do.

Actually Emzy on the contrary what you teach is blasphemous and dangerous and can earn you an eternal damnation in hell telling sinnful humans they have a capacity to fullfill the Law and to Love God without the second birth which can never be by human choice or will. Actually Emzy you are guilty of treason as you actuall call God a Liar by refusing the witness of Jesus Christ about the sin of humans against Gods rule. You refuse to agree that you are a sinner continually and need help but rather you want independence self rule and self choice. It rings like the devil in the garden telling Eve that she will be like God being able to choose good from evil but in the end humans choose only evil anyway. Look closely Emzy you are a slave to sin unless God of his own free will rescues you and saves you not some other egoistic human will and choosing. There is no human apart from Jesus Christ of his own will has ever followed God. It is done by Faith in Christ only and this is a free gift of God not a human choice even to Abraham it was a gift from God in election, predestination,attonement,salvation,justification and finally eternal glory.

The verse on reason above is to Isreal not the every human being. Have you ever pondered that before the death of Jesus Christ salvation was exclusive to Isreal and any gentile saved was actually a prosylyte to Isreal. God did not send prophets to Lobengulas or Shakas ancestors they died in their sins oblivious of JUDGEMENT now is that Fair, personnally I wouldnt dare put a charge against god. We received the Gospel through the missionaries if you care to remmember.

Emzy I worship an AUTOCRATIC GOD who rules over the Kingdom of men from generation unto generation.


Dan 4:3 How great [are] his signs! and how mighty [are] his wonders! his kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion [is] from generation to generation.




Dan 4:34 ¶ And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:


Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Dan 4:36 ¶ At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.


Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works [are] truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


Clearly Emzy God demonstrated to Nebbuchazneder who was the autocrat of the world that he himself is appointed and rulled from heaven. So you have it from the most powerful human who ever lived apart from Jesus Christ Emzy he bowed to the absolute autocrat my God the Father of Jesus Christ. Dont you know that God is Sovereign over all things Emzy both good and evil. Maybe you do not know what Sovereign actually means, it refers to autocrat Emzy. If you dont aknowledge this you have not even begun in your due worship to God and if you are not carefull he may strike you with madness like Nabbuchadnezer ask me and i will tell you, I learnt it the hard way.

The answer to the question Emzy is that everything happens because God is SOVEREIGN over all things even evil and it is not a problem to him, nor has it ever been. It is God besides who planted the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

welly

kunjani mzalwane?

for sure we serve two different gods, and my God won't strike me mad not at all.

sala kuhle wethu.

Ngiphilile mzalwane wegazi and I wont dispute that seeing as you have your god under strickt serveilance and control. However I still pray to my God The EVER EXISTING ONE to have mercy on us both. I cannot guarantee he will do as I ask because my God is Sovereign and is not a co ruler with myself, I am only a creature saved by his own determinate GRACE towards me. May all the Glory and Honour be given unto him for he is deserving of all Praise and Honour now and Forever. Through the only name given under heaven for communication salvation and mediation with him, JESUS CHRIST my LORD

AMEN.

welly

Mzalwane, kunjani?

your gusto is very interesting for an already heavenly bound christian. i never even alluded to your notion that i keep God under STRICT SURVEILLANCE, all i'm saying is that when one sins never say God tempted me, for God does not tempt with evil and that all this evil is not a predeterminant of God.

ngiyabonga, may Jesus OUR Lord be with you

Emzy

Grace to you, i hear you its only when people declare what God will do and wont do not using scripture that alludes to you determining Gods actions. When you say God wont do this to me you are declaring you are your own God or you have some other God who does as you please. God is the only one who has free will as to determine what to do with his creatures. God created the devil to tempt us Emzy you should know that and the devil Emzy can only tempt us upto a certain point as governed and restrained by God himself. If the devil was ever left to his free will Emzy we would all be dead now because he is much much more powerful than us Emzy and God keeps him in check. Emzy all of satans activities are already predetermined by God to the last day open your bible please satan has no freewill in the matter. Neither do we humans have free will Emzy if you had then I could ask you to use your freewill to grow wings and fly which you cant do. We can only do what our nature dictate and thats not freewill.

welly

Mzalwane, thokoza eNkosi, njalo ngithi thokoza eNkosi

decoding from your posting above, it is now evident that we are not understanding the FREEWILL concept in the same manner.

you assert that if you challenged me to exercise my freewill and grow wings i'll fail. this to me sounds like magic, supernatural power and to some what, remote extent Divine power.

however, i understand freewill to be that ability to choose, and one can exercise it, and in this context the ability to choose between good and evil, which was the litmus test given to Adam.

when you suggest that i talk as if i control God by saying He won't strike me mad/crazy, how about you when you said He will strike me mad, are you suggesting you control Him?

my hope is that oneday Christiandom will understand that when we sin that is not God's plan, but the plan of the advesary, and as we remain in this folly that we may sin relentlessly coz God has predetermined our salvation we will find ourselves on the wrong side of the gulf. even the sacrificial death of Jesus in this line of thought is rendered just as a big stage act to passtime, judgment is just a formality, justification a routine, repentance a trivia, reformation and revival some twin illusions, evangelism a hobby, etc etc becoz God has predetermined it all. Paul the man of God was so scared about his own salvation and surrendered himself to Christ and said,"... lest i preach..."

let the cloud separate and the light shine so that we may see the character of God, that of Love, grace, and mercy not an autocrat or a tyrant, and Jesus our tender saviour and the Holy Spirit our comforter who woos us to Calvary.

Amen

Emz lo Welly
Ngingaliphambanisi bakwethu engxoxweni yenu.I was going thru my verses and suddenly thought of you when I read 1Tim 2 v 3-4. I then also remembered Jn 3 v 16. May you be blessed.

Mthwentwe

Ngiyadumisa.

akusiyo yethu lindaba wethu ngekaJesu owabethelwa emthini ngenxa yobubi bethu, ngeyamakholwa, yiqhube, uthini ngalamavesi owabethe ngaphambilini? ikakhulu le, 1 Tim 2:3-4.

ungayibhanqa lale, 2 Pet 3:9

uJesu wathi siyiqhube lindaba isuka eJudiya isakazwe izakakazeke umhlaba jikelele, abakholwayo bebhabhathizwe egameni likaYise, neleNdodana nelikaMoya Oyingcwele.

ungaphephisi tshumayela ivangeli mzalwane.

Amen.

Emz
NGIYABONGA BABA
It is true that God has predetermined the ending of all things."All things shall pass away...." God is achieving or has achieved all things by His word. The perishing, He already knows them. He already knows the saved. HOWEVER,THE PERISHING AND THE SAVED ARE NOT YET LOST OR SAVED, EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE ALREADY "ASLEEP" AS WE SPEAK. By faith many are saved as we speak, but it will all depend on whether one is still in the faith when they pass away. The ones that are already "asleep" as we speak, and they died in the faith are in reality SAVED. In this case God achieved his predetermination of their salvation by his word that says "whosoever believes shall be saved"
Those that are in the faith and alive today are only saved by faith, if they dont draw back until they leave this world they will then be saved in reality.
Those that have passed away and did not believe are not saved and have lost the choice to repent, but they were not specifically predetermined to this sad ending, the predetermination of God about their eternal damnation was achieved by the Word of God while these were living and not believing the word which when believed delivers one from perishing. The plan of God was that all should go to heaven.It was also the plan of God that he was going to lay down the Way there. THE PLAN OF GOD WAS THAT ALL CREATION WOULD OBEY HIS WORD but the devil messed everything up. God is not planned for any single soul to go to hell but he has laid down a specific plan to get anyone there. If you remember in some place our Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a "stummbling block". HE WOULD NOT BE SUCH IF THERE WERE OTHERS ORDAINED TO GO TO HELL. A few scriptures below to help.

Jn 3 v 16 .......whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
2 Pet 3 v 9 ........,not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2 v 3........,who will that all men should be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. (please note here that other versions say ...who desires that all men should be saved.....)
Rom 10 v 1, Rom 10 v9-13


I note at some point you were discussing the creating of a new heart. That particular psalm was written by King David after he sinned by taking Uriah s wife. Further, the king also arranged the killing of Uriah himself. You may note he mentions his sin befor God and in particular, the innocent blood of Uriah. WHEN ONE IS BORN AGAIN, the bible says, old things are passed away,behold all things have become new. This obviously does not mean things like our physical organs becoming new. You can check the scars which you had before they will still be there. The things that have become new is your way of life, thinking, habits, "language", renewed mind because now usuholwa nguMoya. There is a spiritual regeneration.
In Ezekiel He says I will take away your stony heart and give a heart of flesh. I m very sure,100% that those people did not have hearts of stones in reality.
PEACE AND LIFE TO YOU ALL

Clearly Emzy this is your human understanding and it is sinful understanding like all human understanding. What is important is to read what scripture says and to change our understanding to the WORD. Where in scripture does it tell you Emzy that you have an ability to choose between good and evil? To refute you asertion once and for all i will quote to you verses that tell you that you do not have this choosing you talk about but rather you are a slave to sin willingly always.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Now clearly Gods opinion clearly tells us thus our hearts are evil continually. This holds true ETERNALLY anyone who disagrees says God is a Liar.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Emzy looks like you didnt know but your heart is deceitful above all things and evil continually.If you disagree then you invariably call God a liar.

Need I quote the new testament that tells us we are all born dead in tresspasses and sins.

So any human claiming they can choose to do good calls God a liar and it is becuase their hearts are evil anyway claiming things they cannnot do.



Adams covenant with God was that he refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Adam was created he did not have the knowledge of good and evil so your asertion that he was to choose between good and evil is unscriptural.
Adam clearly had neither this knowledge so he cannot choose what he does not know this is nonsensical. Adam was simply not to eat of the tree. He was told that in the day he ate he was going to die. Clearly this was prophescy of future. God told him that in the day he ate the tree he was to die and it happened exactly as God said. So yet again Emzy your statement is unscriptural and false.

Adam transgressed the commandment NOT TO EAT OF THE TREE.



Forgive me this is not what i meant to say all i am saying is that all of scripture is given to warn us. The Isrealites grumbled when God fed them with manna and remembered delicious food of Egypt. Scripture tells us God was angry and killed them in the desert. So when I demonstrate to you that Nabuchadnezer who thought that his rule was Sovereign was humbled by God to get him to aknowledge that The Sovereign ruler of the universe is God himself and rules over the kingdoms of men. So he was made to say and believe that God is an autocrat. So Emzy it is a sin to asert that god is not autocrat and Sovereign. Thats all I am saying.



Emzy Everything is Gods decree. It is gods plan that Evil beings should exist and do certain evil acts and that god will pass judgment on them and put them in the lake of fire. It is equally Gods plan and decree that Jesus Christ came and died for his elect of God and that they then are saved and God will raise them and they go to heaven. It is God who reconsiles chosen evil creatures with himself only. It is God who chooses not to reconsile chosen evil creatures to himself only. Emzy you just receive what has been decreed to be given to you whether salvation or damnation.



When you say tyrant are you alluding that God is an evil autocrat. God forbid this is an unforgivable sin. God is a Holy Righteous eternal autocrat. Everything God does is righteous in his Autocratic Sovereign Rule of the Universe both in heaven and Earth. God does not co rule with you Emzy and you cannot advise god how to rule you are a sinner. Emzy may i ask has there ever been a day you have never commited a sin. I personnally Emzy pray everyday "Forgive me of my sins as i forgive them that sin against me". The only difference for me is that God has granted me forgiveness of all my sins on the merit of the death of Christ.

Please let me know when you manage to spend a day not sinning 100% Emzy, will be waiting.

Emzy Paul was writting to those who are saved and not to every single human being. There is never anything that God wills and does not happen. If God wills that no human being should go to hell, there will be no humans in hell or else he is a useless God who wills things he cannot accomplish. Yes Emzy I will not worship a God who is useless to accomplish things he wills to do. I have willed many things in my time but acheived nothing except sinning and hey I am only a human

welly

kuyinjabulo enkulu ukukubingelela.

okwakuqala, bengingathokoza nxa ungangibiza Emz(initials) and leave the y, ngiyabonga, liphelele nje.

okwesibili, buyela njalo lapho engisebenzise khona igama elithi tyrant and read oncemore.

okwesithathu, Adam was presented with a choice, not to eat and live, or to eat and die. there was nothing prophetic about that, who was the prophet who prophesied that by the way?

if i say to you, if you drink that substance you will die, and you do take it and actually die, what's prophetic about that?

okwesine, ukuthatha ngaphi ukuthi uPawule wayekhuluma labasindisiweyo kuphela? may be to shed more light, laba ke, abalotshwe ngokugqamile, bona ngobani?

according to the line of thought of Augustine Hippo and John Calvin, that verse should read, go ye therefore to all nations and preach the gospel to the chosen ones. i don't think Jesus will instruct the disciples to preach the gospel to those with no potential of repentance.

okwesihlanu do you ever realise that Jesus came as a man to be our example, and what the bible teaches pertaining to sin and sinning in the life of a christian? and do you know what the bible say will happen to those who sin knowingly?

last but not least, may i ask, but if you find it too personal say so, how does one/you know that God predestined you for Glory and that all your actions are nothing but the predetermination of God?

iNkosi ibenathi.

Amen

Bazwalwane

as i was going back and forth with the convinctions of the predestinists, i came to this realisation, jus for interest's sake.

Jesus said he came not for the righteous but for sinners that they may find repentance unto salvation, therefore;

REPENTED SINNERS + THE RIGHTEOUS = 2 PETER 3:9 or 1 TIM
2:3-4

and then factor in freewill or choice, you'll get Rev 20.

BAKWETHU
PEACE LIFE AND JOY TO YOU
May you be blessed by the reading of the word. Deut 30 v 19. Or even better the whole chapter 30. You can comment if you want but I thought just to bless you with His Word.

FALSE STATEMENT YET AGAIN.




Now Emz you asert that this was a choice and I say that is false and an asertion but the text in scripture says that Adam wastold specifically that there was no inhibition to eat of all trees but one and that on the day he ate from it he would surely die. Emz it was Jesus Christ who formed Adam from the clay of the earth who was talking to him. When I say that this is a phrophetic statement i mean that it is a statement fortelling a future event " for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and take note it happened exactly as Jesus Christ told Adam.

Now there are those like you Emzy who have gone beyond scripture and teach that Adam was given a choice and freewill but the text says otherwise. Adam was given Liberty to eat of the fruit of trees the Lord jesus Christ had planted in the Garden except the one planted in the midst of the garden. Now I dont see Adam having a freewill outside the garden or freewill to create other trees. Adam was part of creation and actually the Lord at his will put him in a section and boundary of his creation to do as he saw fit that Adam was constrained to do. If you call this freewill thats your statement Emz and not scripture and I for sure will stick to the verse and not go beyond its clear teaching.

As usual you still deny the evilness of your heart you are born with Emz, why dont you aknowledge like the rest of us that apart from God actually saving us from his own freewill we as humans do not have the capacity or freewill to save ourselves and stop thi bickering of demanding freewill from god which even in heaven we are not given. God remains god even in eternity and he has already determined every action we the saved will do even to all of eternity. So your battle for freewill is lost before even it begins Emz even in hell the occupants will never have freewill neither does any one on earth have or ever will have freewill.



Emz the essence of Christianity is to know that all human beings are born in bondage to corruption and cannot do anything righteous including to choose to serve God because god is served by righteous works. So Emz I will continue to shove this information down your throat you were born and are bondaged unto corruption as a sinner. Emz you do not have freewill to release yourself from this bondage and unless Jesus Christ saves you you will die in your sins and thrown into the Lake of fire and there is no freewill in the matter. If Jesus Christ has freed you rejoice and be glad becuase he has done to you what you could never have done of your own freewill. He saves the people he saves for the sake of Gods name and promises made before creation itself. God is not slack with his promises and fullfills in time every will of his exactly. Those to be saved chosen before the foundation of the world will be saved and those chosen to damnation like Judas will be thrown intop the lake of fire case closed Emz you cannot change the future never ever. Now Emz tell me do you still maintain that your destination to either heaven or hell is your freewill and God will do exactly as according to your freewill. If you thought that then think again my brother humble yourself before God non can resist him.



EMZ SALVATION IS NOT UP TO YOUR FREEWILL NEVER EVER EVER I WILL BANG IT ON YOUR HEAD AS LONG AS IT TAKES.



EMZY YOU CANNOT WILL YOURSELF TO BE SAVED AND YOU CANNOT WILL YOURSELF TO ACCEPT BIBLE TEACHING IT IS A GIFT. GOD CAN HARDEN YOUR HEART LIKE PHAROAH AND YOU WILL INCREASE IN WICKEDNESS BECAUSE YOUR HEART IS ALREADY WICKED BY BIRTH.



EMZ every creature does exactly according to the will of God. Even as we correspond now it is part of predestination. NON has and will ever resist Gods will. If it is Gods will that you be saved no one can prevent it even yourself. If it is Gods will that you be not saved You will never be saved. If it is Gods will that you commit adultery you will commit it at exactly at the predestined time and place and with the exact person.

Dont bother charging me with treason find scripture that teaches anything different because I am certain this is the only teaching in the Bible that God choses who to saves and who to harden at his own freewill. EMZ GOD IS A SOVEREIGN ATOCRAT PERIOD A RIGHTEOUS GOD ETERNALLY.

EMZ You have begun your equation with a false notion hence the result is already false. There is non righteous not even one.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There is non righteous and all have fallen short of the Glory of God. No one of their own will has ever chosen God. Even Moses himself was a sinner and saved by election Grace. When God does not account to you your sins on the account of the death of Christ. Essentially this is the core of Christianity that Humans do not want God so Jesus Christ came that we who do not want to serve God can be saved. If anyone wants God then you will never sin and we all know that it has never happened apart from Jesus Christ.

This Chapter tells you what God will do and God has done and is going to do everything he says he will do in this chapter. However as usual no human being ever does what is required of God and deserve all the curses here. Those saved dont get the curses by GRACE in the death of Christ taking upon himself the said curses. The saved will receive all the blesses on the account of the obedience and choice of Jesus Christ not ours individually.

So gentlemen no use arguing we are all born eveil dirty creatures needing salvation and we cannot choose it ourselves and yes if you accept this it just means its Jesus Christ in you making you to accept his Gift and attoning work of salvation and even makes you to pray to the Father everytime. The spirit of Christ even stays with us forever in eternity making us to do as God pleases forever. THERE IS NO FREEWILL IN THE MATTER IT IS JUST A FACT OF WHAT GOD DOES FOR THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNOWS AND LOVES. If he doesnt save you it is because he hates you and has always hated you period and you die an eternal death as God is eternal.

Emz and to you all my brothers I would like to extend an apology if I have been arrogant and uncompassionate in this matter. However unless you convince me otherwise my conviction that Salvation is by GRACE alone and not a freewill choice stands as supported by scripture let God be my witness this day. I pray the good lord to grant me words befitting to convey his word faithfully and diligently and I assure you that I seek brothers in Christ and not enemies. So if I have insulted or hurt anyone please forgive and please lets carry on the blessed gift of exploring Gods word it is our god given gift.

welly

ngiyakubingelela egameni leNkosi.

khululeka wethu, mina msalufu awukaze ungikhube, kanti njalo i never meant to win this debate, but to seek clarity from the Word of God.

it is your sincere belief that God loves some and hate others to eternal damnation. on the contrary i strongly believe God loves us all and not willing that any should be lost, but hear His call and be saved through the sacrificial death of His only begotten son Jesus the Christ.

as we were tackling predestination i was not foarming in the mouth, but delighted to hear some different views, khululeka.

if you don't mind we may go back to to the topic and pick another question and look at it.

Amen

Emz thank you for non offence and please could you fully reply my two previous posts on the bondage of humans to evil. From this reply you again are preaching that salvation is a work of the evil human being and God is just waiting up in heaven to see who will make it and who will not make it. This is totally false and on the contrary all human beings are bonded to evil actions continually from birth to death and can never ever will them selves to truely worship God. However in Gods perogative he chose to Love a remnant of human beings and he works daily to save them at his own will. The rest of humanity God has hated them and does not save them instead he hardens them and damns them to hell forever and ever. Emz you have never answered my detailed responses on the subject. It has never been my intention to win or loose this confrontational dispute over Bible teaching on the contrary metal sharpens metal if get my drift and it is the way God has ordained that we may increase in the knowledge and reasoning of the works of God. If Emz you give clear scriptural teaching and not your emotional driven thinking i will convert and follow the teaching of the word simple, it has nothing to do about you Emz its the word. The Word teaches that we humans are totally depraved and evil continually do you agree with that Emz or you think there are some righteous humans on the planet? Please fully respond to all my previous posts.

Uma sithi Predestination, sitsho ukuba uNkulunkulu umisile entweni zonke azidalileyo ngentando yakhe isizatho, ukudgcina lokupheleliswa kwazo zonke. Kutsho ukuba uNkulunkulu ule njongo("Plan") ngezinto zonke azidalileyo. Izinto zonke uzidalele isizatho. Akazange adale ulutho, abesethi, "angazi ukuba itshongololo ngelokwenzani", kumbe, "ngidale u emz, kodwa kangazi nami ukuba ngimdaleleni. Sizaphela sibone ukuba kuzogcina ngani/njani". Uma kubekunjalo, uNkulunkulu ubengasoze adale lutho. Sengisitsho lathi abantu, izinto esizenzayo kumbe esizidalayo, kuyabe kulesizatho esizenzela zona. Uma ungelasizatho, ngeke wenze lutho! Cabanga ngemota. Kambe ngabe imota zadalwa kungelasizatho sokufuna i"Transport"? Ngakho sithi uNkulunkulu wadala yonke into evele elenhloso ngakho konke akudalileyo.

Okwesibili, inhloso yakhe igoqela zonke izinto azidalileyo. Njalo, inhloso yakhe yonke iyafezeka, ngeke yenqabelwa yilutho, ngoba kungelalutho entweni azidalileyo, ezingamenzela amaphutha.

Ngakho sithi konke okwenzekayo, kwamiswa nguNkulunkulu. UJesu uthi lenyoni akula ewayo ife kungelakuqondisa kukaNkulunkulu.

Kutsho ukuba, uma kunosindisiweyo, kumiswe nguNkulunkulu, njalo olahliweyo ulahlwe nguNkulunkulu. Akula kulahlwa ngaphandle kokulahlwa nguNkulunkulu. Ukulahlwa kutsho ukulahlwa nguNkulunkulu. Ukwamukela loba ukwenqabela insindiso kumiswe nguNkulunkulu.

Konke lokhu akuphikisani lentando yomuntu, kodwa kuyayiqinisekisa. Akulantando yomuntu ngaphandle kokuqondisa kukaNkulunkulu! Ngakho, ngeqiniso yintando kaNkulunkulu, ngoba enguye othi, wena yamukela insindiso wena angikufuni!

If God loved everybody, ngabe sonke siyasindiswa! UNkulunkulu ufeza yonke intando yakhe! Njalo umbhalo uyatsho, "Jacob have I loved and Esau hated!" UNkulunkulu uthi ukhethe uJakobe hatshi uEsau! UNkulunkulu uzenzela santando ngezinto zonke azidalileyo, ngoba ezidalele inkazimulo yakhe.

Ukukhononda kwakho against the absolute sovereignity kaNkulunkulu is sinful insolence and blasphemy! Exatly whose "justice" and "fairness" do you have in mind? Who is owed this justice and fairness by God? Awulizwa na iBhayibhili lithi siyizoni ezihlahlekileyo, ezinecala lokulahlwa nokubhijiswa okungunaphakade phambi kwakhe? Those who are reprobate will glorify his absolute justice, ngokulahlwa kwabo! We have nothing to plead before God except our wickedness! Abasindisiweyo abalakuziqenya ngalutho ngoba kungumusa wakhe kuphela.

omnyama

omnyama

unjani mzalwane.

let me hasten to say i did enjoy your imput, however, the main thrust was the predestination of souls, some to heaven and some to hell. whether is it a biblical doctrine, or man's invention.

okwakuqala, angithandabuzi njalo angikhonondi ngoNkulunkulu or question His authority over me and His creation in general.

Into nansi bazalwane, akula lokukodwa okwadalwa ngempazamo or okwadalelwa isihogo. uyananzelela na ukuthi man was created immortal and so was his posterity? however, man chose eternal death over eternal life. God through His infinite mercy already had a plan of salvation, not for some, but for all, which prompted the greatst amongst mortals, John the baptist, to say,"Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the WORLD", when he saw Jesus by the Jordan. The blood of Jesus is sufficient for all, rich and poor, free and bond, small and great.

Through Adam, humanity is condemned to damnation, and through Jesus, humanity is recoincelled to it's Maker. The end shall not come untill ALL humanity have had a chance to reject or accept Jesus, and those who accept Him before man He will accept before His Father and the angels, and those who reject Him before man, the same shall He reject before the Judgment.

On that dreadful day all those heading for eternal condamnation shall cryout,"your judgment is true and fair Almighty God", they won't say we were created for doom anywhere. it won't be pleasant, and get it straight, God won't be rejoicing neither, that they are burning in brimestone, but He will be putting an eternal, final and everlasting end to sin, and unfortunately some would have chosen to perish with their darling sins as one writer put's it and God will be left with no choice but to purge the borne and the bearer. God knows who they are and they don't, because some will say, we spoke in tongues, we prophesied, we cast demons and brought back to life the dead in your name, but He will say depart from me ye workers of iniquity.

in all this, this is my point, GOD KNOWS WHO WILL PERISH AND HE IS NOT PLEASED, IT IS NOT HIS PREDETERMINATION THAT THEY PERISH, THUS WHY HE SPARED NOT HIS SON TO RESCUE US, SO THAT WE INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE, HE IS STILL HOLDING THE END AMID THIS WOE AND CALAMITY TO GIVE US MAXIMUM CHANCE OF REPENTANCE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH JESUS. (sorry for the caps, jus for emphasis not to be pejorative or derogatory)

God is the only one who can be just and merciful at the same time.

Isincerely beseech you brethren, let's refrain from the misconception that once saved, always be saved, by faith we have to press forward towards the finish line, and Jesus said He is coming with a reward to present to those who held on unto the truth, those who strived for holyness as their Father is Holy.

If others were created for condamnation, is there any need therefore for judgment? taking cognisance of the fact that God is not the author of confusion. will satan ever bother tempting us if there was no remotest chance of winning some unto himself, even tempting the Messiah Himself, whose sole defence was the scripture, "it is written..."

brothers and sisters, this is not some grand stage.Does it ever occur in our minds that in the garden of Gethsemane the hope of humanity was hanging on the balance, not that Jesus was about to fail,but that the wages of sin is death and our Saviour was facing our altimate pernalty. for the first time in eternity the Son of God was separated by my sin from His Father, as He cried out, 'My God, My God, why hast thou foresaken Me?". when he hung on that cross befitting me a sinner. do we have any foggiest idea of what was happening on that isolated hill of calvary? do we realise that Jesus will eternal remain a man through out eternity? those nail scared hands are now and forever present, to remind us of the dreadful reality of sin. this is more than just life and death, this is God we are dealing with, this is eternity, and is fast rushing on us like a runaway locomotive. GOD does not rejoice when a sinner, dies says the holy word, He loves sinners as much as He hates sin, there is joy in heaven when one sinner repents and if there was one sinner in this earth, Jesus would have died on the cross still, for He Himself is a good Sheperd, who will leave the rest of the flock in-search of a strayed one.

God is love and His love is not limited but encompasses all of His creation.

forgive me brethren i'm a sinner and chief amongst, however, my heart is filled with sorrow when an ordained minister of God is chasing several sisters in the flock under the claim that we are already saved, and sin will be part of us until we go Home, all we need is to ask for forgiveness once we sin and find shelter in Jesus. this is not God's way.

Glory be to God brethren, and if ANY man hears the voice of the Lord let him/her harden not his/her heart but answer to the call, even though our sins are as red as crimson they shall be white as snow.

as some may read along the lines let's read in between the lines.

May God have mercy on us and make us fully comprehend His character and the fellowship He extends to fallen man through Jesus, lest some may dispair.

Amen

welly

"metal sharpens metal", i like your phrase, i really do.

khululeka mzalwane this is not emotionally driven thinking, actually it's scripturally derived thinking.

take note, i refrain from picking verses from scriptures, simple reason being, the vitality of contextual meaning. thus why the Master always had to question His followers, how readest thou?
the implication is, you read but how. have you ever heard something like the three wisemen from the east? who said they were three?

kanti njalo i jus paraphrase the verses hoping one would ask where did you get this or that and i'm free to point it out, for example the posting i addressed to Omnyama, i jus said depart ye workers of iniquity, that is actually Lk 13:27, all that God is not the author of confusion, was just paraphrasing the scriptures.

Moreso, angizibi imibuzo yakho kodwa ngiyayiphendula ngiyazama, kanti khangela ngakubuza ngabo-justification awuphendulanga, okunye njalo we have said a lot okunye kuyaseqa okunye sikulibale.

kanti-njalo ungananzelela uSiphepheli umbuzi walendaba wakunanzelela ukuthi lindikimba ayizimelanga yodwa, yikho wabuza leminye imibuzo elakho ukuthi nxa iphendulwe kahle ingathonya(affect & influence) ukwezwisisa kwethu the whole picture.

nxa ngikuzwa kahle, uthi wena umuntu was conceived and shappen in iniquity and in his own right is eternally condemned to death, ngiyavuma this far, where we reach a fork in the road is where you say man will continue like that and be saved because God has predetermined it thus. cha, ithi incwadi, Creat in me O Lord a new heart that I COULD SIN NO MORE. yes we will stumble and fall along the way but Paul say press forward towards the finish line never tire. it's not a flip flop of sin and repent, repent and sin, but thi according to 1 Pet 1:14ff,[b][b]

welly

xola kakhulu kwenzeke impazamo engingazanga ukuyixazulula impendulo yasijubeka ingaphelanga, ezamakomputha ngiyaziphumputha.

nansi indima ebengifuna ukuyicaphuna ebonisa ukuthi njengamachrestu silemilandu lemigomo

1Pet 1:14-17

therefore, it is crystal clear there is a need and an obligation to be obidient.

hear me well, i'm not saying salvation is by human effort, as evil is not by God's will.

Christian walk is not a mere comformity that God has predetermined and therefore one can sin and repent, repent and sin as he finds pleasing, however that of humility and total surrender to the will of God. and check Isa 8:20.

By keeping the law of God i was not talking about legalism or Judaism or the rituals contained in the old covenant with typical Israel. however, you went on to quote Gal 3:10. i was referring to the ten commandments which are still bind as ever and like never before. If you take Gal 3:10 to mean that one can now lie, kill, comit adultery, practise idolatery, because everything under the law is cursed, you err mzalwane, uyaphazama impela. How do you reconcile Gal 3:10 with Rom 6:15,

Funda Isambulo, sithi ngaphandle kwalowo Muzi(New Jerusalem), kwakuleziphingi, izifebe, abaqambi bamanga, abavumisi,izanusi, abenzi bemilingo. Qaphela njalo, abalahlwanga ngoba iNkosi ihlose lokho kodwa ngenxa yezenzo zabo zobubi. siqhubeke njalo sithi we will be the jury, and have a chance to ask, why so'n so is missing and be shown a well recorded 3D account of their lifestyles and all the chances they had to make it right, and sitsho sithi kuqondile ukwahlulela kwakho Nkosi.

ask yourself why does God keep a record in heaven, is He answerable to anyone? no i don't think so, but all our dealings are recorded with astonishing precision, and God knew it before the very foundations of the heavens, then, why the record?

did you realise that by accepting Jesus, actually you are engaging in a spiritual battle with the Devil, have you ever wondered why we pray and ask the Lord to deliver us FROM, not in evil, does this suggest any chance that we might be usurped by the advesary?

the three Hebrew boys purposed in their hearts that they will not bow, even they were facing the mightiest king, and disobeying him meant death, they stood for the Lord and of good courage' and Jesus airconditioned that whole thing for them. if as christians can not stand for something, life above sin which is our calling, we will fall for anything, that is deception, often they say, and i'll say it again, even a dead fish can swim down stream, but it has to be alive and kicking to take a dive. we are called to be different, be in the world but not of the world.

to me being a Christian means first and foremost accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and then accept him as your example, this spells out tallorder and awesome responsibility. if not, why did Jesus bother coming as a man,why not come in His full Glory and just knock off the devil teeth for the second time and take us home?

let's read together and pray to come to a full understanding and saving knowledge of Jesus.

Amen

The predestination of ALL things including souls IS a Biblical doctrine taught from Genesis to Revelation!


But you posit "free will" which cannot be reconciled with God's sovereignity. Is this not questioning God's sovereignity? Infact "free will" is man's sovereignity, which is blasphemy! Do not confuse "will" and "free will", those are two different things! The Bible most definitely teaches that man has a "will". But it most emphatically denies man any "free will".


You started quite well, but then you introduce unanswerable mysteries, enginombuzo ngazo:
Uma uJesu wafela izono zabantu bonke, kungani abanye bengasindiswa ---- bezakuya esihogweni? What will they be punished for, if their sins were paid for?


I am afraid it is the meaning you attach to these that is at variance with the teaching of the Bible. Those who accepted Christ will not have done so by their own "free will" as there is no sinner with a "free will". They do so because God regenerates them and gives them a new heart which believes the Gospel. No sinner has a heart that can believe the Gospel by themselves. Those who do not accept the Gospel is because God has left them in their reprobate state and not given them a new nature that accepts the Gospel.


You say "God knows who they are..." that is true. But how does God know who they are? He knows them because he chose them! God knows the future because he planned it! UNkulunkulu akahlahluli! God does not "predict" or peer into the future njengabosiyazi! He knows it because he preplanned and caused it! God is not a seer!



Let us get one thing straight, if God were just to leave the salvation of man to chance, or man's will, absolutely no one would be saved! You seem to hold a naive and unbiblical view of the depth of man's wickedness and sinfulness in rejecting God! Nothing short of God's direct intervention will do. It is God who draws the sinner to God and makes them believe the Gospel. It then follows neccessarily that those who do not believe it is because God has not chosen to draw them!



I agree, this is true.


First of all, "once saved always saved" is not a misconception. Kuyimfundiso esemibhalweni. You cannot be "unsaved" once you are saved! It is the death of Jesus that secured the salvation of the elect and not what they do or cannot do! What you are teaching here is self salvation. Well, good luck to you, but I can save you all the pain and tell you that you will fail! The only thing that will bring assurance of salvation is God's predestination to salvation.

"Condemnation" is "judgement", and so your question is, "If others were created for 'judgement', is there any need therefore for 'judgment?' " which is meaningless!
Satan does not need to win any to himself. Satan won everyone through the fall of Adam at the garden of Eden. We are already sinners by birth. Temptation is to make believers dishonour God, and to destroy the testimony of the Gospel, basically to snuff out the light of God in the earth. The Bible says believers are light in the world.

Jesus paid for the sins of his people. Those chosen from the foundation of the world. It is only and only for those that he suffered and died!

The Bible does not say "God does not rejoice when a sinner dies". It says God does not rejoice at the death of a sinner, but that he repent" The sinners, whose death God does not rejoice in are those that he turns form their sins. It is the elect that God is talking about. If God does not rejoice in your death you can be sure you will not die. God will make sure you don't. He won't leave you to your own devices, which will certainly fail you. The sad God who sees his will frustrated by people who reject him and go to damnation against his will is NOT the God of scripture. This is a pathetic impotent diety, a product of man's imagination!

SO "god" loves the devil and his demons? It's my first time to hear it!

I don't know who or what you are talking about here. That's certainly not me!

Amen! The only sad thing is the unbiblical meaning you attach to these scriptures!
omnyama

Omnyama, Blessed is the Heavenly Father for he has given thee a gift to articulate scriptural matters queite fluently.

Emz

Please let me paraphrase the thoughts I am getting from you. It seems that you cannot comprehend how God can Predestinate things. Firstly actually you dont realise that God is in the process of revealing himself in creation. God is Holy and hates evil, so he Predestinated the occurance of evil whereby he demonstrates his hatred of sin where evil occurs e.g When God will put satan in eternal torment. God is merciful so he Predestinated the mercifl action unto a remnant of Humans and Angels to demonstrate his mercy. God is all Wisdom so he created the heavens and the Earth which operate in incomprehensible wisdom. the list goes on. Basically if God has not Predestinated a certain thing it will never come into existence or occur.

Evil. Please notice that God is the only one who is righteous by nature so all rational creatures inevitably fall and then continue to be evil. Hence when satan fell he became wholely evil like Adam when he fell. So it invariably means that if God was not merciful to Adam and Eve they would have grown in their evil inclination. So in scripture when it describes Abraham as faithful and David, Daniel and the three young men in the fire. You must realise that they are thus solely on the righteous action of God himself. Actually it is God who caused these saints to be faithfull and even when they fall into sin their sins are already forgiven on the basis that Jesus Christ had agreed to die for their sins. Thus in Gods eyes they are Justified by Faith in Christ and it is accounted to them as righteousness. Notice how for all saints including myself we are accounted accounted the righteousness of Christ by Faith which is all unmerited gift of God which is Gods mercy and Love. Invariably Satan the reprobate of humanity and the Fallen angels were hated by God even before they came into existence because god did not apply Love to them. love is mercy forgiveness salvation and the entire package. Please notice that The Angels in heaven now never sinned not because they are righteous but obviously it is because God has caused them to be preserved. Notice that the fallen Angels were all not forgiven and are chained in darkness till Judgment day.

Notice here that Gods revelation is progressive with time and The salvation by Christ was not fully detailed by God to Adam as it is to us now. Actually it was Paul who was given the revelation of the mystery of Christs attoning work and its application to people who are not Isrealite by physical descent. Those before Paul even in the time Jesus Christ was on earth were not explicitly given the revelation that is why like Nicodimus he did not understand second birth and how God LOVES THE WORLD and not Isreal exclusively persay. Here God Loving the world was Christ introducing that the times of the Gospel as preached by Paul were begginning and Judaism was falling away as it has done. It is not that God LOVES every single human being who comes into existence. Ther is a verse that says God knows who are his and as usual invariably deduced he knows who are not his and hates them. Remember that God demonstrates his Love for a remnant of evil humanity by Justifying them. It is God who Justifies the evil and we the evil ones cannot justify ourselves.

Besides there is a place in scripture that tells us this is Gods Wisdom as when we get to heaven there will be no one who can boast and say that they managed to choose God or they got there by not sinning. Rather everyone will know even the angels that it is by Gods GRACE and not merit or EMZ not by the WILL.

Emz please can you explain the verse "it is not by the will of man nor of works" and "it is not him that runneth nor wills" sorry I have quoted them too many times but you seem not to want to explain them.

Emz you say " once saved alwaysed saved" well actually biblical teaching is " YOU WERE ALWAYSED SAVED BEFORE YOU WERE BORN AND ARE ALWAYSED SAVED TO ETERNITY"

Emz true Christians fall into sin in this earthly life like Moses. However God Chastsises us and corrects us and forgives us. God has granted repentance to the saved only. repentance Emz is a Gift of the indwelling holy Spirit. If ever we didnt sin we would not say the Lords prayer nor would we need jesus to die for us. Emz we have forgiveness as a gift not a response.

omnyama

ngibingelele njalo mzalwane

uyakhuluma mzalwane kodwa uyaphaphalaza, yiqonde lindaba ungasabi, sengathi iNkosi ingakhanyisa izwi layo kithina.

uthi wena,

yiwuphi umbhalo ofundisa limfundisa, ngisize, sengidinge ngabeka phansi, ngithola lokhu, Rev 3:5

Is it possible then to receive Jesus and your love waxcold down the line, and be blotted out of the book of life?, the answer is yes, if you do not overcome you will be lost. once we receive Jesus, who by the way is free for all, we must abstain from all appearance of evil. 1Thes 5:22

JUDGMENT

Judgment does not mean condemnation mzalwane, cha akunjalo, check even your dictionary, according to your assertion how will you read Rom 5:18?

this is not the thrust, that is, the lexical values of words. the point is, there is judgment of condemnation and that of righteousness, 1 Pet 4:17

simply the family of God are those who obey the gospel and the lost are those who do not, and both groups will be judged, some to righteousness and some to everlating condemnation or contempt. The issue of judgment, however, is not whether you have sinned, (because the answer to why i've sinned, is easy, ngiyaphuna D, because i was conceived and shappen in iniquity, inclined to evil by nature), but rather what have you done with God's gift of salvation, Jesus Christ.

hear me well, i'm not alluding or envisaging that those of the family of God are thus by self saving or works, rather it is purely God's initiative, and our performance is evidence that yes Jesus have redeemed us, just as our sins are the fruits of our sinfulness, our good works are fruits of righteousness by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our works do not contribute to that righteousness that save us, but rather they are evidence that we have been redeemed from sin, and the evidence of sin, we all know, selfishness, covetuosness, uncleanness, fornication, inordinate affections etc. I nknow simnandi isono, but brother man vuma kumele sehlukane naso ngoba sizokulahlwa sicabanga ukuthi sesi-safe angeke kwenzeke lutho.

GOD'S CREATION

God did not creat evil mzalwane, all what God created was perfect, good and in order. God did not creat Lucifer as satan and the fallen angels as fallen, or to be the objects of His torment and torture, cha. YES God did love Lucifer very much and to demonstrate that He did not restrain his freewill, thus why Lucifer followed the desires of his heart and became satan. Lucifer was a covering cherub, a very high post in heaven, he apostacised and wanted to exalt himself above even the Most High, he influenced other angels and one of his major charges was that the law of love and liberty was/is selfish, he declares that it's precepts can not be obeyed. As result Jesus came as a man and will remain thus, and he was tempted at all points as we and Christ did not use any Divine power that is not freely afforded to us through prayer, to overcome, because His sacrifice will not be sufficient for any sinner, Heb 4:15. all what he accomplished as a man we can do and even more He declares. if man will perpetually be chained by fetters to iniquity, then why did Jesus say he came to free the captives?

THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE

Jesus died for mankind, His blood covers all, please show me in the scripture, where Jesus died for the chosen ones? and i gurantee you that you will not find even an allusion to suggest that, but to the contrary, the bible is clear that hell fire is not meant for mankind but for the devil and his angels Matt 25:41. There is only one plan for mankind from his Maker, that of free salvation through Jesus the saviour, thus why God does not rejoice at the death of a sinner, but that he(sinner) repents. Catch the warning in Rev 14:9, the warning is that, if you deliberately, willfully, consciously and ultimately reject the gospel, you leave God with no choice, but ukuthi akubhanqe nosathani nezingelosi zakhe akuphonse emthatheni.

this gospel that limits the death of Christ to be for the chosen only not for mankind, does not only rob Jesus of being the ultimate sacrifice, but renders His sacrifice insuficient and limited, all mankind sins can be washed in the blood of Jesus. and you can not point out anywhere in the bible where it says the sacrifice was for the chosen only.

we can argue till cows come home, but the truth will come in due time, but God says, , and Jesus is the life of mankind.

Amen

welly

ngibonge njalo ukuzwa kuwe, igama leNkosi malibongwe.

ngiyakuzwa uyakhula mkhula, uthi ngiyawaziba amavesi akho, nami ngikunxusile ukuthi nanzelela izicaphuno zakho, visit them once more and try to use a few at a time ukuze lathi esibalayo sezwisise, for example uhlephula indinyana ekhuluma ngemisebenzi yenyama yabazenzisi uzama ukwephuca imisebenzi yokulunga eyibufakazi bosindiso hatshi inkokhelo yalo, ubuye njalo ukhulumae ngokuthi umyalo kaThixo awusaphoqi sesingona santando ngoba vele sixolelwe khona mandulo uMdali ewasinga amazulu, besewuyasekela ngemilayo yemifanekiso eyayikhomba Lowo Ozayo, Gal 3:10.

lami ngisuka ngidideke ngingasaqondi ukuthi kumele ngiphendule kanjani? as sivumelene, siyasesha, sicubungule, ngethemba lokuthi sizokukhanyiselwa Ngophezulu ngesikhathi sakhe langentando yakhe. ithi ngizame.

SALVATION(ngivumele ngiqale la, ngize kancane ngizokuphendula)

We are born sinful and even if we wanted to, even if we tried, even if we lived as long as Methuselah, WE CANNOT SAVE OURSELVES.
Ngethemba siyavumelana. where we differ is after we have accepted Christ or in your case after you have been predetermined, that we will continue to sin and live in sin untill the end, cha iyakwala lokho incwadi. ngiyethemba ufundile/uzofunda impendulo engiyithumele ngegama likaOmnyama.
Yiso shaqa isizatho somubi ukuthi umlayo weNkosi awungelandelwe muntu, and Jesus came to set that example, not to be saved by or because we are keeping the law, however to keep the Law because we are saved. Paul say akusiyimi, kodwa nguKrestu ophila phakathi kwami. Kambe nxa iNkosi isiphila phakathi kwethu ingasiholela kanjani ebubini, ingathi feba ubulale usuxolelwe? angiboni njalo.

Nxa uKrestu esekithi samamukela ezimpilweni zethu ithi incwadi, Col3:5

this is an awesome responsibility for a christian, ngiyavuma amaKrestu asendulo ayesiwa evuka kodwa esiyaphambili, uDavida wafeba kanye waqhubeka esiyaphambili waxolisa wathi ngiphe inhliziyo entsha Nkosi yami ukuze ngingaphindi ngikonele njalo. When you say we will continue in sin till death mzalwane bala kahle, this ping-pong life of sin and repent, repent and sin, must stop, Jesus uses some very strong language against such life amongst His flock he likens it to a dog going back for it's vomit, this is not palatable at all. God sanctifies (set aside for Holy purpose) us that we may be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus. 1Ths 5:22ff.

uthi wena satan and his angels were hated by God even before they were created, i'd say before He created them, then one is compelled to ask why did He creat them? khumbula ngabuza njalo ngathi nxa iNkosi ilamandla isona sivenyelwe kanjani? ngesinye isihloko lesi.

SATAN AND HIS ANGELS

uthi wena,

I have sad and shocking news mzalwane, they are free and running the show down here, sekucaca awusibalanga Isambulo or awusezwisisanga, sithi Maye! kuweMhlaba ngoba umkhunkuli lezingelosi zakhe sezilahlelwe kuwe. sithi Isambulo omubi wadonsa ngomsila(took for himself) 1/3 of the heavenly hosts/stars/angels. uYohane uthi nxa esemoyeni etshengiswa iguma loMthangala, wabona izithunywa ezingu 10 000 times 10 000 = 100 000 000 and thousands upon thousands an inumerable figure, give and take izingilosi ezabuya losatan outnumber us by far, thus why Legion had more than a thousand of them tormenting him, and Magdalene had seven of them specialising in prostitution, who knows how many are they seaking our downfall.

they are not bound yet mzalwane they are on the loose, but for a short time, which makes them more dangerous, and for a milenia, which will comense at the second advent, they will be bound and confined into the bottomless pit, before being cast into the lake of fire origional and solaly meant for them and their arch deceiver not for men, and those of men who bought the deception will partake of the consequences.

SAINTS

Uthi wena,

i have no doubt that you might be a saint, but i have a question, who are the saints? check Rev14:12
if you agree with this answer or definition, then it spells tallorder responsibility, not flip-flop sin and repent repent and sin.

Esengikufundile yikuthi ibhayibheli silizwisisa okwehlukeneyo, hence all these denominations, 400+ in USA alone.

lakusasa

Amen

emz,
Njengokutsho kwami ngaphambilini, akulanto engenzeka emhlabeni nasezulwini engamiswanga nguNkulunkulu. There are no randomn events in the whole universe. The universe is a creation of God. God created all things with a specific and particular end in view. This is what we mean by the universe was designed. Creation is not a randomn activity on the part of God. Creation therefore implies predestination or foreordination.

Kanjalo ke nensindiso. God foreordained or preplanned the salvation of certain people. We say so because not everyone is saved. If God had not foreordained anyone's salvation, no one would be saved. It would never happen. Into engamiswanga nguNkulunkulu ngeke yenzeke. If only some are saved, it follows that only some are foreordained to be saved, and if only some are foreordained to be saved, it follows that it is only for these that Christ came to die. And visa-versa, some are not saved because they have not been foreordained to be saved, therefore no provision for their salvation has been made because they have not been foreordained to be saved, therefore Christ did not die for them.

To say Jesus died for all mankind is an absolutely worthless and useless idea, since not all mankind is saved! We might as well say God created unicorns and pink flying elephants and trees that walk and talk! Well, where are they? These are just ludicrous ideas.

The Bible was written to early christians, a sizable portion of whom were Jews. The Jews believed salvation was only for them. It was revealed to Peter and the apostle Paul that the Gentiles were also called into the new covenant. So when the apostles wrote, they had to emphasize that God wants ALL man to be saved not just Jews. The whole world or all man means people from all ethnic groups and not just ethnic Jews. It was a revolutionary idea at the time. But it was never misunderstood or given the semi-Pelagian and Arminian spin that moderns like you do.

Finally, you asked for scripture. Well, all the above is taken from scripture and see below.
Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

emz,


You need to realise that though we use the same vocabulary the meanings we attach to these words is different. Your 'salvation' which can become undone is to me NO salvation at all. So we are not talking about the same thing.
John 6:39
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus says the will of the father is that he shall lose none of those he has given him and that he who believes shall have eternal life. None of these fit the profile of your temporary arrangements which can be lost!

47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

In this passage he who believes, has 'everlasting life' and will 'live for ever'. None of these are can be lost for a long long time, like NEVER!!!

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
John 11: 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus says he who believes will NEVER die!

Eternal life is not 'temporary life', never die means NEVER die!
Your fears about losing salvation do not have any biblical foundation. You have simply been sold unfounded and false roomers

What shall we say about the warnings of scripture to those who are saved?

Well, God has not predestined us without the means to that end. The Bible says, through many trials and tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God. God has ordained us to go through these trials. God has ordained prayer and fellowship. God has ordained studying his word. All these are not against foreordination, but are part and parcel of the means to the foreordained end. If God says I will give you a son, you might be expected to make love to your wife and she be pregnent for 9 months, go to maternity ward and do the screaming .... and voila, there is the fulfilment of the prophecy! So, the warnings in scripture only have meaning or significance if you are elect. Inkuthazo lezi zilosizo kuphela kulabo abayakhona empilweni. Ongasoze afike angeke zamsiza ngalutho! Therefore these encouragements and warnings are only relevant to the elect. These are the only people that abstaining from sin is of any relevance kungakho they must not sin... because they are saved. They must live holy lives because their Father is holy. Uma besona, uswazi luyakhala emhlane indoda ibhense sadonki!
Your reading that these warnings means they might not make it, are mistaken! The warnings are the ordained means of making it. The warnings will not fail to have the desired effect because they are the only means we know ordained by God to bring saints to maturity.

In language the same word can be used to mean various things. We know we are sinners. If one is not saved 'judgement' can only bring one scary thought in mind and that is, condemnation. For the sinner judgement means condemnation as he has no chance of being justified. If one is born again of course thats a different matter altogether. Judgement in this case means evaluation of works/life of the believer and apportionment of rewards for the way we lived. There will obviously be positive and negetive commendations! So, same word different meanings!

Your original question was unclear to me. 'If we have been predestined, what is the use of judgement' Again this is a common question.
Paul answers it in Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

So there you are. The Bible says who do you think you are to query God for hardening one and then judging them.


Well, one is not clear what you have in mind when you say 'evil'. Do you mean the devil?

You are probably confusing God as sovereign creator of all things and his will for man. God is not subject to his own creation. God gave us the ten commandments yet He himself is NOT subject to those commandments. For example, God says 'thou shall not steal'. God is not subject to this command since all things belong to him, there is therefore nothing that he could steal! He can give us riches and take them away. They belong to him. 'Thou shall not kill'.. God can take your life since he is the one who gives it and has the right to withdraw it as he pleases... and so on and so forth. We are subject to his pleasure. When we break his laws, then we comit 'evil'. So 'evil' for man means breaking God's commandments. I would say all the 'evil' moral creatures comit is simply breaking God's commands. Ngakho, to say, 'God did not create evil does not seem to have any meaning! In any case whatever your intention was here is Isaiah:
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


omnyama

Emz,
Kanti kawusangiphendulanga phela mzalwane, "If God loves everybody and Jesus died for everybody, why do some people go to hell?"

omnyama

phindela njalo emva uyefunda ngaphansi kwesihloko esithi THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE

omnyama

kunjani mzalwane.

kungasenani, ngizaphinda njalo, uJesu wafela isono somhlaba, kanti njalo uyatsho uthi ivangeli lizokusakazwa umhlaba wonke,(peoples, kindreds, nations and tongues) anduba ukuphela kufike.

into engimangazayo yikuthi ucaphuna uJhn 6:39-40, bala uvesi 40. uthi in chapter 12 nxa esenyuswa uzokudonsa ulunto lonke, nanzelela katsho ukuthi uluntu lonke luzamamukela, abanye bazakwala, ngiyaphinda, isihogo sibekelwe usatani lezingelosi zakhe hatshi umuntu, kodwa ke ngokwala uJesu losindiso ngamabomu umuntu szozitholo esobhukuda esihogweni.

God has only one plan for mankind that, is Salvation through Jesus, thus the only plan God has for man.

to close this, some what winding engagement, let me admit, i get arrested when you refute that the terms, ALL, MEN, WORLD, (PEOPLES,MULTITUDES,NATIONS,KINDREDS,TONGUES), EVERYONE etc, in sriptures mean humanity, but the chosen. there is nothing i can say because to me this can not be backed by the Word and moreso, it stripps Jesus of being the Saviour of the world He is.

i don't like to say it, but it sounds more like Calvinism, a 16th century fallacy, of which i might be wrong, but hey this doctrine has all the characteristics of Calvinism, chief amongst, being the denial of Jesus being the Saviour of mankind, when He actually said it Himself.

therefore, if this is Calvinism we are dealing with here, i'll concede, for the very reason that it is a man's doctrine and can not be backed by scripture,it might sound spiritual but not iscriptural,hence,a very dangerous doctrine to be pushing around.

let's push the gospel, and it must be preached to ALL and ALL who are of the age of understanding and of good manner of health, must have a chance to either accept it or refuse and then the end will come. the thrust is SALVATION TO ALL MEN(generic) THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND HIM ALONE NO HUMAN INPUT, GOD'S INITIATIVE.

God is the Giver and men the receiver, and the receiver can either accept or refuse, hence the question of the judgment is not why you sinned but what you did with the free gift. Just like a doctor, he gives you the prescription, if you follow it you will be well and if you dust it, you will die. GOD says it Himself, I give you life and death, choose life, the bible will never be more clearer.

ngiyabonga.

Amen.

Emz you havent answered the question asked, why do people whose sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross by his death still face condemnation and hell. If your god Emz ever sent anyone whose sins were paid for at the cross to hell he would be very unjust and incapable of keeping his word. This is the evil false God who dies for the sins of people and still punishes them again for the very same sins.

you see Emz your teaching is unbiblical. Jesus christ did not die for the sins of every single human being.


2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So Emz explain clearly why then God would impute certain people again their sins he had reconcilled on the cross. This is non sense Emz.


Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.


Emz please clearly explain in this verse if God failed or accomplished what he willed on the cross. Did he make peace and then he will change and make war and hell after. So Emz I have to ask you will you be in heaven or not, maybe you talk of things not given to you Emz. Please explain i am only trying to understand your thinking and understanding. Emz are you happy your sins are forgiven or you dont know or what do you think will happen to you when you die and why. Maybe you are saying things you know nothing about. Please no offense. you still have not responded to my previopus posts my brother.

welly

sibonane njalo.

eqinisweni angisazi ngithini, angithandi mina ukubhanqa kumbe ukubandlulula amanye amaKrestu, ngoba sonke sahlengwa ngagazi linye, kodwa nxa sekungena indaba yeCalvinism, bengicela ukunikeza abanye ixetsha mhlawumbe bengehlukanisa imbambo lomgogodla.

ngithe mina uJesu wafela umuntu wonke, wena uthi cha akunjalo, ubuye ucuphe u 2 Corinthians 5:19, loCol 1:20 kuyini okwezwisisayo ngomugca othi reconciling the world, or reconcile all things unto himself? yimi osekumele ngikubuze ukuthi besekwenzeka kanjani ukuthi abanye balahlwe, ngoba nanku uthi ngalowo mhlatshelo uMdali wabuyisana nomhlaba wonke? uphinde uzigwenxe uthi hatshi lokhu kutsho abakhethiweyo kuphela, kulapho engilahla intambo ngobo leyo yiCalvinism luqobo, and it's not gospel, but a man-made doctrine of which John Calvin has an absolute right to formulate as a long as he did not force it unto anyone.

as ngitshilo, uNkulunkulu wasihlenga sonke, kanti njalo umthathe wesihogo ulindele usatani, khepha uNkulunkulu does not force anyone to be saved, thus why Jesus was not a militia movement. God has presented the way and only one way, this will sound as derogatory, but if one rejects Jesus God has no any otherway availed to men by which he is to be saved, but people do reject God day in and day out. others want to do it by themselves, others ngezithixo abanye ngobhuda labomohamathi, abanye ngamadlozi, abanye ngemali. then Jesus says to us, this gospel must be preached to all nations, peoples, tongues and kindreds, for a TESTIMONY/WITNESS and then the end shall come, Jesus uses loaded legal terms, a tesimony and/or witness for or against us.

uthi nxa ethuma abalandeli bakhe on canvassing, uthi lapho abazalala(reject) ivangeli lithintithe uthuli emanyathelweni enu liphume kulowo muzi.

thus why we are still on the mission field today mzalwane, if Jesus died only for the elect, those(elect) living soon after his death will be home by now, but abanye ezindaweni zonke kusuka eJudea kusiya emaphethelweni omhlaba babengakalizwa ivangeli, abanjengoJudasi balala. Jesus died for Judas, but Judas refused salvation and chose money instead, wonke uzulu uzokulizwa lelivangeli losindiso abanye bazakwala, abanye sebala, abanye bazolivuma and then the end will come and 2 groups will emerge one on the right and another on the left.

iNkosi ithi, yiSrayeli kade ngakufukamela njengesikhukhukazi sivikela amatshwele aso okhozini, kodwa uyaqholoza undlondlobale namhlanje ngikwekile wenza okuthandayo bheka indlu yakho isiqalekisiwe ngembubhiso.

lakusasa

Amen

welly

angisazi sengiyaphelelwa okwamanje, uthi angikuphendulanga or usukhohliwe okubuzileyo, check le posting #37861 05/03/08

izahlokwana ezithi, salvation, satan and his angels, saints and go back and read yours and then evaluate.

mina angingabazi about my own salvation, it was freely given unto me and i did not reject it, i was called while i was in darkness, called into light and my obligation is to accept that light and live in it. how can i claim to have been delivered while i'm still the same old, where is the rebirth? God gave me a check and i cashed it, thus all, if God failed Jesus w'dn't have came out of that grave and praise be to God on High, He did, and whosever willeth let him come it's free, complete and for all. This is the full gospel mzalwane uyasho noPawule uthi nanxa kungabuya ingelosi itshumayela elinye ivangeli ngaphandle kwaleli, mayiqalekiswe. here is the way walk ye in it, igazi lenele even the vilest offender who cofesseth his sin and forsake them will be forgiven and God winks at ignorance, however, to whom more is revealed from the same more will be required.

Amen

Emz,

Well, "I don't like to say this" either, but your beliefs are familliar heresies which have become very popular amongst so called christians. Pelagius, is the "Father" of your ideas. In the 5th century AD, Pelagius arose and taught that human nature is not corrupted by sin. He taught that Adam had been just a bad example and that every baby is born like Adam before he fell and makes their own choice like Adam at the garden. He taught that man's will was completely free, unaffected by sin.
Augustine Aurelius, refuted these ideas showing they contradicted the teaching of the bible. Augustine maintained that man after the fall is born a sinner with a corrupt nature, incapable to obey God or to believe His word. He taught that therefore God has to draw man to himself and this by grace extended only to those he had foreordained to eternal life before the foundation of the world. Faith is a gift from God and not a result of the excercise of man's "free will", Augustine taught. Thus Pelagianism collapsed, but only for a season!
In the sixth century AD, another man, Cassian, arose teaching a mixture of Augustine and Pelagius' ideas. It was termed semi-Pelagianism. Cassian accepted that Adam's sin extended to his posterity, but held on to the idea that, in salvation man makes his own choice. Man has to by his own will, be willing to believe. He taught that therefore Christ had died for all mankind without exception, so that people can make their own choice to believe and be saved. This error was refuted, repudiated and condemned at the Council of Orange in 529 AD. Augustinianism was reaffirmed.
Error finally engulfed the whole church in general and for another 1000 years, languished in darkness until the 16th century reformation. The Reformation leaders reaffirmed the doctrine of man's total depravity, and need for regeneration and the gift of faith and God's foreordintion of some unto salvation. All this had been taught by Augustine Aurelius. The leaders of the reformation who taught predestination were Martin Luther, Zwingli, Melancthon, Bullinger and Bucer and others. Martin Luther wrote a 400 page tome, "The Bondage of the will" in which he refuted the idea of free will and asserted man's total depravity and helplessness and God's predestination of some to life. The second generation Reformation star was John Calvin, who was a great systematiser. He collated all these teachings on God's sovereignty, man's total depravity and predestination. These doctrines later became known as Calvinism. But Calvin was NOT the originator, they were held by all reformers and they all got them from Augustine Aurelius, the great African philosopher and theologian of the 4th and 5th century AD.
Then in 1610, a year after the death of a professor Jacobus Arminius, his followers drew up 5 articles based on his teachings, which they presented to the state of Holland in the form of a protest or "Remonstrance". They wanted the doctrinal statements of the churches of the Netherlands to be altered to reflect the teachings of Arminius. And what do you know, the teachings were just reworked semi-Pelagianism.
A church council was convened at Dodericht in November 13, 1618 to consider these teachings. The council met over 7 months in a total of 154 sessions, which lasted until May 9, 1619. James Arminius' teachings were unanimously rejected. The members of the council were from England, Switzerland and Germany(27 delegates) and the Netherlands(75). The council went further and drew up 5 points to set the teachings of scripture instead of Arminianism.
So, your statements above reflect the propaganda that you have been brainwashed with and not facts or the truth.
You believe an old heresy, which has been condemned several times throughout history.

omnyama

omnyama

as i feared.

may God blees us all. with all due deligence and respect, ngiyabonga to exchange the Word with you.

Amen

I never feared! Arminianism has become so popular that people like yourself actually think those who oppose it have to be feared for!
This is the depth of ignorance and brainwashing the so called ordinary believer is mired in. Just believing popular teachings without considering the origin of the ideas one believes is dangerous.
I hope your eyes will be opened to the true teaching of scripture on God's absolute sovereignity over all he has created and his foreordination of all things to his own glory and that no man does as he pleases, that man has no free will, man is not sovereign, only God is and he is in complete control of all things including people.

nami ngiyabonga,

omnyama.

Emz

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to contend for the faith and the tone i am getting Emz is you are bowing out and can or will not defend your faith as you received it. However non the less the Good Lord has granted me strength to solder on and contend for the faith that i received from non other but God himself.

Firstly Emz you have failed or refused to articulate your refutation of the inability of a human being to do anything that is not evil. As my brother omnyama clearly put it with his gift that man has no free will but rather his will is enslaved to evil continually. Choosing god is a righteous act and a human being is incapable to choose God thus God in his Sovereign perogative chose to save an elect number of humans and gave them the gift of faith to believe. These individuals actually never come to faith by free will but God draws them by various methods at his discretion and Glory. We are made sons, we are made willing, we are adopted to eternal life. Basically this is the second birth which is not by human endeavour. Calvin preached a faithfull biblical teaching as far as salvation is concerned and i personally do not agree with his millenium teaching but that doesnt separate us as believers.

Pentecostalism is Arminian a heretic and worker of iniquity. Emz you preach a herescy and if you dont turn you shall surely perish

Love in Christ always

welly

ngikubingelele nami egameni leNkosi

ngitsho nakancane mzalwane, ngisekhona, into nje ngisuka ngixakwe yiCalvinism.

kanti njalo mina angihlangene neze lePentecostalism.

may be ithi ngiphawule kahle about my faith and then take it from there, by using the bible as a standard.

1. Jesus said He came to redeem mankind from sin, and gave a command that all mankind must hear His Gospel before the end comes, and those who refuse it, He said leave them. Hence without any shadow of doubt or wavering, i strongly and incessantly believe and declare without fear, that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for mankind.

2. Mankind is sinful by nature, hence Jesus came to break that bond, and those who accept His Gospel shall be granted power to live victorious and overcoming lives until He comes.

3. Salvation in Jesus is the only gift and plan of God known to mankind for his salvation (man's), no human effort is required to earn this Gift. those who have accepted this Gift, even though they are not peffect at all times yet striving to be, live a life which reflects the character of their Maker by faith, that is, a live that shuns evil, and a Godfearing one.

4. There shall be judgment, this judgment will/is not based on why one sinned but on what one did about the Gift. In this regard, some will be condemned to everlasting contempt and some to eternal life.

5. Hell is/will be God's tool to put a final end to sin, origionally and purposefully prepared for the devil and his angels, and any of Adam's posterity who so chooses to refuse, willfully, God's salvation will be purged, more of purging the contents than the containers.

Therefor, mzalwane before condeming me to perdition, use scripture and scripture alone (sola scriptura) to prove beyond any reasonable doubt where i err. i'll prefer that you take my convictions one at a time, and give me and others who so wish to participate, time to do so. mina anginamhloni ngevangeli, i mean the Gospel of Jesus, not any man, not even an angel for that matter.

iNkosi ibusise

Amen

Emz

Greetings in the Lord. Ngiyajabula ngokuphikelela ngemfundiso oyiphawulayo as i always maintain that the saying holds true " metal sharpens metal" hence your list is helpful in dealing in order our points of contension.

Yes the teaching on predestination is a very sensitive and mind blowing formidable task as it takes wisdom and right usage of language to articulate its full meaning, however it is a Bible based concept fully explained and taught as such in scripture.

here are my thoughts on your points











Firstly lets be precise Jesus christ said that the Gospel will be preached to the ends of the earth and commanded that it be preached to all nations.
However lets state facts When Jesus Christ died on the cross there were human beings in South Africa who did not receive the news that the Lord has just died. The South Africans did not receive the Gospel until 2000 years later. Emz since logic will tell us that since these guys did not have internet then they obviously did not receive the Gospel and died without the offer of the Gospel. So my question is did Jesus Christ die for these folks. Obviously not because they neither received the Gospel nor did they worship the true God. I dont see any possibility God just ushering them into heaven on the fact that there was no internet or radio to beam the news to them. So as a matter of fact even today there are many human beings who die without ever hearing the Gospel, you dont suppose these folks will be ushered into the kingdom without knowledge of JESUS CHRIST.

Emz be very clear is Jesus Christ the sacrifice for all and I mean all of mankind every single one from Adam to the very last soul to be born on earth..????? Please try and be very specific in your wording dont beat about the bush.




One step at a time Emz.

i) Jesus Christ broke the sinful bond of the will of humans ?

Jesus Christ never breaks the bond of the will of humans to sin in those individuals who are not elected unto salvation. Those not chosen to go to heaven are hardened never set free from dominion to sin. You are totally wrong Emz

ii)those who accept Gospel granted to overcome sinful lives on earth

a)the question here Emz is who are these people who truely accept the Gospel?
b)how do they accept the Gospel be specific what it is that makes them accept the Gospel?

Just to state a fact Emz, Acceptance of the Gospel as true fact in a human being is impossible. There is no human being of his own free will can acess and accept that salvation is in Christ alone never from Adam to the last man. Emz acceptance is a non meritious Gift from God to the elect only.



I agree acceptance is a Gift which God does not give to every single human being Emz. The Gift is from God alone and he gives it to people whom he has chosen to give eternal life to already Emz.

I agree with your promt evangelical of living in Christ which is applicable to believers only.




a)Emz there is the Judgement when God passed his sentence of death on Christ for the sins of the elect.
b)There is Judgement when on earth the elect are chastsised for their sinful activity to teach them and correct their behaviour.
c)There is Judgement on The White throne when the elect are rewarded for their righteous deeds they did by the working of Jesus Christs Spirit when on earth.
d)There is Judgment upon death of the elect when their bodies die
e)There is Judgement when the bodies of the elect are resurrected and glorified on account of the merits of Christs death

Please note that the those chosen to burn in hell forever are reserved in torment before their resurrection at the end. The Chosen are raised first before the 1000 years.



Of course Emz even yourself you still sin willfully that is you use your will to sin. Emz be careful when you use language i am sure you do not mean that Gods actions need purging. God never sins and his salvation does not need purging. The sins of human beings of the elect are purged Emz by the death of Jesus Christ this is what we mean by salvation.




God forbid May it never be my brother for me to condem you to perdition that is the sole perrogative of Christ to pass the sentence if he so wills.

Alute continua

Let the struggle continue to articulate the truth of scripture

welly

kunjani mzalwane.

bengicelile nje ukuthi uthathe ama-convictions ami one at a time, kanti njalo supply clear texts for any contradictions, ngisuke ngifikelwe ngumkhumbulo wokuthi may be you do not read my posts carefully, or this whole discourse is for argument purpose, which is an abuse of the Holy Word.

ngithe mina Jesus died for makind, where did i beat about the bush? read again that paragraph i used very strong language there.

concerning those who died without knowing Jesus, read Acts 17:30 and Rom 2:14, please, if you don't mind.

let's finish with this one first, bring texts which supports the idea that Jesus died for a certain group of people i'll supply a bus load to suggest the contrary and then we move to the next point, may be we can have progress.

God bless.

Amen

We believe that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God; that inspiration of the original autographs was plenary and verbal and, hence, the sixty-six books of the Bible are inerrant; that it is the sole authority for faith and practice in all matters to which it speaks.

We believe there is one God eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that all three possess equally all the same attributes, nature, perfections, and characteristics of personality.

Section One - The Deity of Christ

We believe in the full deity of the Lord Jesus Christ who always was and will be God and did not cease to be God at the incarnation.

Section Two - The First Advent

We believe that the Man Christ Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit; that He was born of the virgin Mary; that He possesses both a divine and human nature both distinct and unmixed; that He was without sin; that He died a penal substitution for the sin of all men; that He was buried; that He arose on the third day in the same but glorified body in which He lived and died; that He ascended to the right hand of God the Father; that by His death He provided atonement for all men, but it is applied only to those who believe.

Section Three - The Present Session

We believe that the God-Man Jesus Christ now sits at the right hand of God the Father; that He functions as the High Priest for all believers ever making intercession for them.

Section Four - The Second Advent

We believe in the personal and physical and bodily return of Christ for the Church and for Israel.

We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit; that He is the infallible author and interpreter of the infallible Word; that He convicts, regenerates, indwells, empowers, instructs, and guides the believer in living, service, and worship through His gifts; that in this age He baptizes and permanently indwells and seals all believers into one body; that His chief purpose is to witness and glorify Christ; that His fullness and power and control are appropriated in the believer's life by faith.

We believe that the dispensations are stewardships by which God administers His purpose on earth through man by varying responsibilities; that they are chronologically successive; that they are not ways of salvation nor different methods of the administration of the Covenant of Grace but are a test of man's submission to God based on progressive revelation; that they are a necessary view of Scripture based on literal interpretation, a consistent distinction of Israel and the Church, and that the ultimate purpose of God is His own glorification; that they are not different ways of salvation but in every dispensation the basis of salvation was always the blood of Christ, the means of salvation was always by grace through faith, the object of faith was always God, but the content of faith changed in different dispensations dependent upon progressive revelation.

Section One - Creation

We believe that God created an innumerable number of sinless beings known as angels, seraphs, and cherubs.

Section Two - Satan

We believe that one of these created beings, "Day-Star, Son of the Morning," the highest in rank, sinned through pride, thus becoming Satan the adversary; that he is an actual person with all the characteristics of personality; that he is the originator of sin; that he operates today as the prince and god of this world; that he is the arch-enemy of God and the people of God and deceiver of humanity; that he led the first parents into transgression causing their fall; that he was judged at the cross, a judgment yet to be executed in the Lake of Fire.

Section Three - Demons

We believe that a great company of angels followed Satan in his fall, some of whom became demons who are active as Satan's agents in the carrying out of unholy purposes, while others who fell are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Section Four - Unfallen Angels

We believe that a great company of angels kept their holy estate and are ministering spirits of God for the carrying out of His purpose, especially to those who inherit salvation.

We believe that man was created in the image of God; that he fell through sin and lost his spiritual life; that he is dead in his trespasses and sins and, hence, is totally depraved; that this fallen nature is transmitted to every descendent of Adam, the man Christ Jesus excepted; that man has no spark of divine life and is unchangeable apart from divine grace.

Section One - The Means of Salvation

We believe that salvation is wholly a work of God's free grace and not the work of man in whole or in part, nor due to man's goodness or religious ceremony; that it is a gift to man received by personal faith at which time the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the sinner, thereby justifying him in God's sight; that those who are saved have been unconditionally elected to salvation in eternity past and have been effectively and irresistibly called by the Holy Spirit.

Section Two - The Extent of Salvation

We believe that at the point of salvation, the sinner becomes totally accepted by God, united totally with Christ and, hence, loved and accepted by the Father as Christ is loved and accepted; that he is now the recipient of all the riches of divine grace and in possession of every spiritual blessing and, hence, is not to seek a "second blessing" or a "second work of grace."

Section Three - Eternal Security

We believe that all true believers once saved are eternally secure forever because of the nature and work of Christ and the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life; that it is the privilege of all who are saved to be assured of their salvation from the very moment that they accept Him as Saviour; that this assurance is not based on their own merit, but by the testimony of the Scriptures and the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Section Four - Sanctification

We believe that sanctification is a setting apart unto God and that it is threefold: positional sanctification, in which the believer is viewed by God as already completed "in Christ," being united with Him; progressive sanctification, in which the believer retains his sin nature throughout this life, needs to grow in grace, continually becoming more and more conformed to the image of the Son of God; and ultimate sanctification, in which the believer is fully sanctified in his state as he already is in his position, which will only occur when the believer sees the Lord and will be like Him.

We believe that God called a people to Himself who are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; that Israel is the Wife of Jehovah, unfaithful in the past, divorced in the present, and to be reunited in the future; that God has made four unconditional covenants with this elect nation that have remained unfulfilled; that God intends to fulfill all His promises to Israel in a literal way just as His warnings and judgments were fulfilled in a literal way; that in Israel's history of unbelief there has always been a believing remnant according to the election of grace; that there will be a national regeneration of Israel at which time all of the provisions of the unconditional covenants will be fulfilled, including the seed, land, and blessing aspects.

Section One - The Organism

We believe that the Church is the body and Bride of Christ; that it is composed of all Jewish and Gentile believers from Pentecost to the Rapture; that entrance into this body is by Spirit-Baptism; that it is distinct from Israel; that while sharing spiritual blessings with Israel of the Jewish covenants, it neither fulfills them nor has taken possession of them from Israel.

Section Two - The Ordinances

We believe that an ordinance is a practice that is commanded by Christ, practiced in the Book of Acts, and expounded in the epistles; that only two ordinances exist: baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper, both of which are limited to believers only.

Section Three - The Believer's Responsibility

We believe that all believers are obligated to assemble together for the purpose of participation in the ordinances, to be taught the Scriptures by gifted men, to edify each other, and to worship God; that this assembling is to be organized as a local church under authoritative leadership; that the believer is called to holy living in the power of the indwelling Spirit; to fight the spiritual warfare against the world, the flesh, and the devil; to use his spiritual gifts for the purpose of building up of the local body of Christ.

Section Four - The Great Commission

We believe that it is the responsibility of both the church and the individual believer to evangelize and disciple all nations both actively (doing the work of evangelism) and passively (supporting those doing the work of evangelism): that the specific procedure for discipling the nations is "to the Jew first" and this is also true in both active and passive evangelism.

We believe that Christ will return into the air for the purpose of gathering the Church to Himself both dead and alive; that this event is both imminent and pre-Tribulational; that this is the blessed hope of the Church.

We believe that some time after the Rapture, the Tribulation of Israel's Seventieth Week will occur for a period of seven years; that it is a time of judgment of all humanity; that it will bring to an end the times of the Gentiles and result in the national regeneration of Israel.

We believe in the personal, visible, and bodily return of Christ to the earth with his saints after the Tribulation and before the Millennium in the clouds of heaven with glory and great power at the request of and to save Israel from her enemies; to judge all living Gentiles for the purpose of determining who will be excluded from the Kingdom and who will be included in the Kingdom.

We believe in a literal one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth over Israel and the Gentiles during which time the Church will co-reign with Christ, the unconditional covenants with Israel will be fulfilled, Israel will be restored along with the resurrection of the Old Testament saints, Satan will be bound in the abyss, the curse will be lifted, and the knowledge of God will permeate the world, and peace will be maintained by the iron-rod rule of Christ.

Section One - The Present Time

We believe that at physical death, the believer immediately goes into the presence of God in full conscious fellowship with the Lord, awaiting the resurrection of the body; that the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal conscious separation from God in Hell, awaiting the resurrection of the body.

Section Two - The Eternal Order

We believe in the eventual resurrection of all saints before the Kingdom to fellowship with Christ in the Kingdom on this earth and then in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth in eternity after the Kingdom; in the resurrection of all unbelievers after the Kingdom to appear before the Great White Throne Judgment and then to abide for eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Hello Welly
Do you have a scripture to back the above please, thanks

linjani bazalwane?

sibonge u-welly ngokusichazela kahle langokugcweleyo akukholwayo, ngibonge njalo. ngilakho okuncinyane engingakutsho lengingakubuza, kodwa uMthwentwe usebuzile, ngingajabula ukuyizwa impendulo, kanti njalo ngizolinda, ngingakabuzi nami.

Amen.

Brothers please use this template and edit to your liking and pettision your Members of parliament

Thanks Welly

From: sekacavelle@hotmail.co.uk
To: givemoremasuku@hotmail.com
CC: mandylove77@hotmail.com
Subject: OUR BROTHERS ARE DYING PLEASE HELP
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 20:20:32 +0000



Hilary Benn MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA


Dear Sir,

I write to you to lobby you to join us in the anguish and dispair over the violence towards Zimbabweans in the Democratic State of The Republic of South Africa. I request that you put forward your voice against this sensless violation of the Human Rights of the affected individuals. We note that The United Kingdom has vehemently spoken out against the perpetration of violence against the citizerns of Zimbabwe even when it stemmed from the ruling government of Zimbabwe. Hence my belief that you may render your voice against the inaction of the Government of South Africa. Please put forward our concerns here in the free world to the Prime Minister to lend us his support. We note that this is a country which is going to host the worlds biggest sport feature yet is unable to protect fundermental human rights of Zimbabwean Human beings.

I hope to receive your reply soon


sekacavelle
FLAT 2, 23 WESTBOURNE STREET
BEESTON HILL
LEEDS
LS11 6EN

My apologies for long silence on the word of truth. However the dreadful head of sin has surfaced as witnessed with the mass persecution of our brothers in SA. May it please the Lord to send the afflicted mercy hope and protection from the hand of the evil one.

Yes brothers it calls on me to demonstrate by scripture how the attonement of the death of Jesus Christ is not applicable to all Human beings.

Just to put things clear in perspective, I believe Jesus Christ died to attone for the sins of believers from Adam to the death of Jesus Christ and all those who come to believe after the death of the Lord.

Clearly this does not cover THE WHOLE WORLD as many take scripture to mean. If Jesus Christ died for Cain and his descendants scripture would tell us but no they are said to be wicked. So immediately no one can say truely Christ died for all of humanity as Cain is part of humanity. Then we would charge scripture of teaching falsehood which is definately not the case.

However not withstanding this lets explore the new testament as follows.


Jhn 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jhn 17:10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Jhn 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jhn 17:13
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Jhn 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Jhn 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jhn 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Please could we study these verses first to exhaustion. Clearly there are those people whom Jesus Christ himself God and Man is praying for to the Father. From my understanding there are people whom he is clearly not praying for. I do not find Jesus Christ God and Man praying for every single human being. Surely of all people Jesus Christ is Omnicient and knows exactly what he is doing. In this passage clearly Jesus does not pray for Judas Ischariot.

Surely is this the Man who wants everyone to believe in him please Emz lets thrash this passage out and tell me Im seeing something there isnt or you will claim that Jesus Christ is contradictory or confused and doesnt know what he is doing. I shall stop here so that we move together for the interest of all truth.

welly

mehlo madala mzalwane, long time no c/sea/see, God bless.

kulezinsuku ngisebenza njengenhliziyo, ixesha lilutshwana.

lamavesi owafake ngaphezulu awadingi ukuthi siwachaze, read the whole episode from chapter 15, you'll realise that Jesus was praying for His disciples, check v6, 20 and 25 of chptr 17. v12 clearly states who is destined for doom, son of perdition/satan.

do you realise that Jesus said that prayer during the last supper? specifically and specially praying for the 12-1 who were about to face an unsurmountable and formidable task, that of preaching the word to the world.

i hope we will find some revelation and understanding from this approach.

God Bless

Amen

Njengenhliziyo bafo, kodwa thina sithwele kanzima

What i like about this passage is we can look at it in its fullness. Firstly do we agree that jesus had to die also for the sins of all the saved in the Old Testament. So he is approaching pay day. I will restrain to each thought so we all move together

Ok my brothers maybe it seems like I have hit a dead end let me rephrase my thoughts. Could we please look at this verse


1Ki 20:42 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of [thy] hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.

Has the Good Lord appointed a human being to utter destruction. Is this true? please explain.

welly

thanks to hear from you oncemore my brother, may the Good Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

nxa ngikuzwa kahle, you are asking that since i said the bible teaches that man was not created for doom, neither does God creat/ed anyone for destruction, how come then this man in 1Ks 20:42 the Lord Himself says He appointed him for utter destruction.

Let's try to identify the players.

Who was that man?, Who was talking and talking to whom? on what occasion?, why was he appointed to utter destruction by God?

1.That man appointed to utter destruction was the defiant king of Syria, Ben-hadad.

2.Elijah was talking to king Ahab of Israel, Samaria as the capital.

3.This was soon after the second defeat of Syria by Israel at the plain of Aphek. this was an acted oracle, which was a dramatised message by the prophets, for example when Jeremiah wore a yoke, and Isaiah walked to and fro naked, etc. in this case Elijah, covered his face and told Ahab the story of how he was left in charge of a p.o.w and he escaped, and Ahab passed the judgment that Elijah was at fault, thus when that verse was said by the prophet to Ahab, that he was supposed to kill Ben-hadad because the Lord had appointed him thus, and he decided to spare him therefore Ben-hadad's fate was now Ahab's.

why was he appointed to destruction?, he defied the armies of the Lord, he terrorised Israel even though Ahab had submitted to him, above all he and his generals defied the Lord and called Him isithixo samaqaqa( god of hills), and planned to defeat Israel by the plain of Aphek. This was the Lord's battle, Ahab knew he was supposed to vanquish the lawless man, however Ahab chose to take matters into his hands and spared him, and play a good guy.

the point is, the Lord does not pronounce destruction before willful, conscious and purposeful disobedience or defiance. and true if you are willing and obedient you shall eat the good fruits of the land says the Lord in Isaiah.

ngiyethemba this makes sense, if not say so brother, and continue to bear in mind that it's not about us but Jesus and His word.

Amen.

May the Grace Love and fellowship of the lord be with you my brother Emz. Thank you for your response. From it I gather you conquer to the fact that The Good lord does damn certain individuals to eternal hell. I hear your reasoning but I neither nor does anyone say or think it is without cause the Good lord sends anyone to hell. However before i continue this investigation please can you comment on this verse.



Isa 46:3 ¶ Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Isa 46:4 And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver

[you].

welly

ngibingelele njalo.

as i enjoy discussing The Word with you my brother, but to be frank, i'm very uneasy dealing with verses in isolation, this tendency does not only limit the Word, but gives inaccurate conclusions. i strongly believe each verse is there for a particular reason(s), and understanding the bible is asking the LORD to unveil or unmask that reason, either for instruction, correction or reproof in righteousness.

to comment on the above verses i'll refer to the following chapter:

The Punishment of Samaria
8 The Lord sent a word against Jacob,
And it has fallen on Israel.
9 All the people will know—
Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria—
Who say in pride and arrogance of heart:
10 “ The bricks have fallen down,
But we will rebuild with hewn stones;
The sycamores are cut down,
But we will replace them with cedars.”
11 Therefore the LORD shall set up
The adversaries of Rezin against him,
And spur his enemies on,
12 The Syrians before and the Philistines behind;
And they shall devour Israel with an open mouth.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.
13 For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them,
Nor do they seek the LORD of hosts.
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel,
Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 The elder and honorable, he is the head;
The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err,
And those who are led by them are destroyed.
17 Therefore the Lord will have no joy in their young men,
Nor have mercy on their fatherless and widows;
For everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer,
And every mouth speaks folly.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.
18 For wickedness burns as the fire;
It shall devour the briers and thorns,
And kindle in the thickets of the forest;
They shall mount up like rising smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts
The land is burned up,
And the people shall be as fuel for the fire;
No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand
And be hungry;
He shall devour on the left hand
And not be satisfied;
Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
21 Manasseh shall devour Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasseh;
Together they shall be against Judah.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.


sekungathi uNkulunkulu uyaziphikisa lapha. esinye isibonelo, wathi wena akula muntu ongaqondisa kumbe aphikise intando kaNkulunkulu, kanti njalo leNkosi iyatsho ithi ayiguquku. uthini ngalamavesi?

Ex 32:9-149

And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his

Emz my brother Grace to you in Christ,

May all the praise and Glory of his name go on unto everlasting.
Now my brother you seem to be jumping the gun and bringing in yet again more things than need be at the moment. I have been clear from the onset that It is my fervent prayer to demonstrate to you that God does in fact PREDESTINATE ALL THINGS. Even the very things the saved will be doing in eternity and the very torments of the unsaved are and have been PREDESTINATED by God himself in its entirty.

So God repenting of the evil he would justly pour out on sinners he PREDESTINATED that fact from all eternity aswell as his will not to repent of the evil he shall pour out onto sinners.

The amazing thing ever which no one can explain fully is how God even can take a sinner and give him the riches in Christ because there isnt a single creature wothy of such, even the unfallen angels are not worthy of eternal life.

The reason anyone ever does make it to heaven fully and unequivocally lies on God himself. He has PREDESTINATED all those creatures that will receive eternal life.

God has decreed all things concerning eternal destinies of all creatures. God has decreed all temporal things concerning the lives of his creatures in his Sovereign PREDESTINARY perogative.

All Gods actions are immutable and cannot change now or ever. What will be will be. The future is definite it is not capricious thats why prophescy works because God has already set the bounds in place.

This teaching should be a source of Joy and elation to all believers and well incidentally it is also a source of dread for the REPROBATES them appointed by God to destruction.

God has enough reasons to destroy all he chooses to destroy. The only reason there is why he doesnt destroy those whom he chooses to give eternal life to sets squarely on himself.

The future is definite at every moment, what is happening was determined to be thus from eternity.

So my brother Emz dont panic, look at the evidence and behold what great power belongs to the Lord. All creation will marvel and wail at his awsome prescence. The elect shall rejoice and the reprobates will shudder and tremble and they shall all receive eternal torment and wrath in the lake of fire.

I.-When love is predicated of God, we do not mean that He is possessed of it as a passion or affection. In us it is such, but if, considered in that sense, it should be ascribed to the Deity, it would be utterly subversive of the simplicity, perfection and independency of His being. Love, therefore, when attributed to Him, signifies-

(1) His eternal benevolence, i.e., His everlasting will, purpose and determination to deliver, bless and save His people. Of this, no good works wrought by them are in any sense the cause. Neither are even the merits of Christ Himself to be considered as any way moving or exciting this good will of God to His elect, since the gift of Christ, to be their Mediator and Redeemer, is itself an effect of this free and eternal favour borne to them by God the Father (John iii. 16). His love towards them arises merely from "the good pleasure of His own will," without the least regard to anything ad extra or out of Himself.

(2) The term implies complacency, delight and approbation. With this love God cannot love even His elect as considered in themselves, because in that view they are guilty, polluted sinners, but they were, from all eternity, objects of it, as they stood united to Christ and partakers of His righteousness.

(3) Love implies actual beneficence, which, properly speaking, is nothing else than the effect or accomplishment of the other two: those are the cause of this. This actual beneficence respects all blessings, whether of a temporal, spiritual or eternal nature. Temporal good things are indeed indiscriminately bestowed in a greater or less degree on all, whether elect or reprobate, but they are given in a covenant way and as blessings to the elect only, to whom also the other benefits respecting grace and glory are peculiar. And this love of beneficence, no less than that of benevolence and complacency, is absolutely free, and irrespective of any worthiness in man.

II.-When hatred is ascribed to God, it implies (1) a negation of benevolence, or a resolution not to have mercy on such and such men, nor to endue them with any of those graces which stand connected with eternal life. So, "Esau have I hated" (Rom. ix.), i.e., "I did, from all eternity, determine within Myself not to have mercy on him." The sole cause of which awful negation is not merely the unworthiness of the persons hated, but the sovereignty and freedom of the Divine will. (2) It denotes displeasure and dislike, for sinners who are not interested in Christ cannot but be infinitely displeasing to and loathsome in the sight of eternal purity. (3) It signifies a positive will to punish and destroy the reprobate for their sins, of which will, the infliction of misery upon them hereafter, is but the necessary effect and actual execution.

III.-The term election, that so very frequently occurs in Scripture, is there taken in a fourfold sense, and most commonly signifies (1) "That eternal, sovereign, unconditional, particular and immutable act of God where He selected some from among all mankind and of every nation under heaven to be redeemed and everlastingly saved by Christ."

(2) It sometimes and more rarely signifies "that gracious and almighty act of the Divine Spirit, whereby God actually and visibly separates His elect from the world by effectual calling." This is nothing but the manifestation and partial fulfilment of the former election, and by it the objects of predestinating grace are sensibly led into the communion of saints, and visibly added to the number of God's declared professing people. Of this our Lord makes mention: "Because I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John xv. 19). Where it should seem the choice spoken of does not refer so much to God's eternal, immanent act of election as His open manifest one, whereby He powerfully and efficaciously called the disciples forth from the world of the unconverted, and quickened them from above in conversion.

welly

ngibingelele njalo, egameni leNkosi. ngiyacela pliz pliz read this posting to it's fullest and all those who may so will, i pray, sincerely i do.

well, i simply quoted Exodus 32:9-14 to show you that God is not an autocrat as some people would like to present Him, and God will never use any favouritism, every man will be given sufficient time to accept or refuse the Gospel. the prophets are/were used by the Lord to declare warning to the people so that none will have excuse on that great and dreadful day, even read Amos 3:7. if some are created for doom, those will be in heaven for sure, because before the jury their case will be the easiest one, their defense will be simply that they were created for that purpose and hence no power or authority over it. i bet my last breath, my God is faithful and Just to forgive them. on the contrary the question of the judgment is what one did with the gospel which can and can only reach man through evangelism as Jesus commissioned us to do unto all nations. what scares me is the fact that within all the world regions where predestination is still prevailing there is little or no evangelism at all, and this is detrimental to the growth of the body of Christ, cause truely, if God has His own already what's the need for evangelism?

what you "wrote" above is somewhat disturbing:
at least you should have respected your readers and referenced your work, even put it in quotations.

i know and hope you will take this as a brotherly concern not a know it all attitude.

as you would have guessed, i do spend time reading predestination before engaging it's proponants.

as a result, i'll not tire supplying the scriptures to refute predestination of some to heaven and some to hell, may be this whole engagment, seemingly between me and you, is meant for other readers who will be edified in the longrun. I strongly believe there are some who take stock of their lives and despair, especially with regards to predestination. they conclude that they are the doomed ones since nothing seems good about their lives. the Lord have Good News for those.

read

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (King James Version)

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



NATURAL/UNIVERSAL SIN

What confuses me about the proponants of predestination, is the fact that they concur to natural/universal sin through Adam as transmitted to ALL of Adam's posterity, hence naturally man is at variance with God and can not naturally seek God, hence the need for Devine intervention. to this assertion i say Amen, yiwo umfukula weVangeli lo. However, when it comes to a Universal Redeemer The Man Jesus Christ, they jump ship, they say no, now ALL means some,with regards to salvation.

What have they to say about:

Romans 5:16-20 (King James Version)

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



THE HEART OF GOD

After all these age old doctrine upon counter doctrines, one wonders where is the Heart of God about man? i know no better texts than these:

Ezekiel 33:11 (King James Version)

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

and

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version)

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


SINNING WILLFULLY AND KNOWINGLY

Moreover the proponants of predestination, teach a serious and dangerous non-biblical doctrine of "once-saved, saved-forever". this teaching is not only false but can lead a lot of us to damnation because sinning willfully and knowingly carries immediate judgment. they say once God predetermines you for glory you can now sin willy-nilly so to speak, because your sins are forgiven before you even sin, but my bible tells me that if we listen unto the Lord and walk in His path, CONFESS and FORESAKE our sins, we will be forgiven of our sins even before we confess them. to me there is a big difference between the two.

I don't know if predestination is aware of the following passage:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (King James Version)

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Therefore, my brother(s) and sisters of cause, lets read the bible not for isoteric or philosophical reasons, but for light.

Amen