I was watching a documentary on Channel 4, a certain man was looking for the Ark of Lord. And he discovered something in Harare which to him was the Ark of the Lord.
But most interestingly he connected the Lemba people with the ancient Jews. Genetic tests were carried out and they proved the connection between the Lemba people and the Jews.
When Mahlaba once mentioned it here, i just ignored him because i thought he was mad.
Mahlaba i think you need to get that documentary from BBC, it would be so good for your people's history.

my man genetic tests can prove whatever you want to prove if correctly manipulated.eg at 99.994%confidence level all humans from aborigins to whites to blacks are related, @97.6% confidence level we are related to apes,and @90%confidence level we are related to rats!!personally i dont know where the lemba come from but assuming they are black african 3000years is too little time for them to have been racially related to jews(note: it will take at least190 generations(3800 years) for a descendant of a black-white relationship to be considered pure black/white assuming all his 190 fore-fathers married pure blacks/whites!!)about the ark of lord being in harare, his sanity need to be tested

Mpumelelo101, I was amused by your mockery of the fact that DNA statistics shows that races and even different species are related. Of course they are related. Darwins theory of evolution shows that all living things are branches of the same tree of life and the mapping of the genetic code of different living things and the fact that they are so similar is one of the main proofs of the theory of evolution.

You also seem to mock the findings of the documentary that the ark of the covenant is in a remote museum in Zimbabwe. Did you watch the documentary? I watched it and I found it quite compelling. The investigation and evidence outlined in the documentary is quite convincing. Watch it and then do your own research to check the validity of what is presented instead of dismissing it out of hand. And remember the truth is often stranger than fiction.

With all due respect Mpumelelo 101 I am not convinced by the latter part of your argument that it takes at least 190 generations to 'bleach'/make white a black man's descendant.For starters how white one is, or whether they are white at all is a phenotype issue (to do with external looks and appearance) for social and all day to day life purposes since we do not subject people to x-rays and scientific tests to decide their race on the street or at work.

Now an octaroon (an eighth generation descendant of one black ancestor and white folk) will to all naked eye scrutiny on average pass as a white person, and to some certainly is, for his/her genetic make-up is more white than black i.e. there are more whites in his/her ancestors than the single black one.Please note the descendants of the much famed 19th century black African scholar Tiyo Soga are a good example of this.They are very white and Scottish and all that remains of Tiyo in them is the surname Soga.
Now, 190 generations is way too long to keep even the strongest genetic rudiments responsible for the phenotype of a single ancestor on which our perception of race is based.

This is not to say I suscribe by the theory that the Lemba are Jews at all but I will agree based on the male gene research as mentioned that they are related.Note, I will not even use descended because maybe it is the Jews who are of Lemba stock and besides the Lemba have overwhelming black race ancestry evidence in their phenotype to make their association with the Jews a defining aspect of their lot.
I further submit that any Lemba folk feeling closer to the Jews than their black ancestors are given to fantasist fancies of escapism and are likely in deep hatred of themselves since it is obvious they are not in recent history and certainly recorded even biblical history noted as Jews or as legitimate descendants thereof.

Mpumulelo, you remind me of my first primary school, Mpumelelo Pry Sch. Yeah, i do not understand your percentages, if you want to confuse me just throw numbers in your arguement.
I just don't know why the Lemba are black, but i am asking myself were all Jews White in the past? Maybe it was like in India today where other Indians tribes are more lighter than others and others darker than others. If it was so then this could be a credible explanation for the Lemba people. And i am sure that over the years they have intermarried with black Africans. Just look at Barrack Obama for an example his children are pure black whilst his mother is pure white. I am just speculating, i don't know the answer to this, the documentary was compelling, i am sure that there is a link between these two people.

sorry guys i was speaking genetically not about visible traits like skin,facial features,hair texture.as it is possible to genetically predict one's race,i meant it would take 190 generations (3800-5700 years) for a descendant of a black/white relationship to be genetically black/white and NOT to appear black or white. bearing in mind that white means caucasian and black means african!with this in mind, note that some visible black americans have caucasian roots for these roots to be insignificant it would take 190 generations(based on a computer generated model)!! also note:it is humans only who are divided into races,animals are divided into sub-species and i personally think humans should be no exception,but this is mired in religious-moral-ethical propaganda!!
LEMBA's are most likely to be genetically related to jews, just like aborigins,zulus and red-indians because we are humans!

population genetics is highly controversial and complicated maar genetics within a group is crystal clear ie i can be 100%certain that umama wakho ngumama wakho but with population genetics you can't be certain that this population group is related to that

.being in DBN, i do not have access to channel4 ngakho i would appreciate if you can give me their website assuming the doc is available online.

The first part of your statement above is scientifically incorrect!! Visible traits - skin colour, eye colour, amongst others are determined are genetically. Other traits such as height, weight are in part determined by the enviromental conditions as well as genetics.

I would presume though I could be wrong, that the genetic link between the Lemba and the Jewish is not based on genetic/ DNA testing in its simplest form i.e simple comparison of base -pair matching. Such tests would not prove a genetic link as you rightly assert. More powerful tools for the purposes determining ancestry include what is called mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA testing. These determine maternal and paternal ancestry respectively. With these and other tests it is possible to determine genetic relationships between peoples on different continents.Of course these tests are not infallible but express within a confidence level the relative probability of geographic origin.

i guess i was to brief.what i meant was that i was speaking about race genetically not physially because there is more to what is underneath than that seen by the naked eye.

abantu should stop abusing science to pursure their agendas.are you aware that there arab propagandistic documentaries which purport to show that 9/11 was a controlled demolition, and they have experts who back them?
through abuse of dna testing oprah claims to be zulu and who knows 50 cent might be saxon!
this very same documentary purporting a DNA link between lembas and jews is more than dubious because the very fact that what we know as jews today might not be jews after all because some "experts"claim jews where black!!
genetically i understand we all come from one woman(east african) so to use martenal-dna to trace ancestry will lead us to nowhere.
mpumelelo101 this space is ours caca ka one and stop being brief like a mini brief, though i get what you are saying layman might not be hence sizodinda ndawonye!

With all due respect you are missing the point- the physical differences between races, individuals are determined to a very large extent by genetics. It is your genes (and how they interact with your environment) that determine what you look like. It is the genotype that determines the phenotype (and not the other way round!)
Current scientific knowledge states that there are NO genetic differences between blacks and whites other than for a mutation in the gene for melanin production, whites produce less melanin than blacks as a result. On the other hand you are suggesting that there are yet more genetic differences between the races. Would you be so kind enough as to share them with the rest of the world?

ngiya xolisa ngokungenela i ndaba yakho lo mpumz101.i think he is definately not disputing the obvious face that visible traits are dertemined by genes kodwa uthi based on DNA these visible traits might be misleading, ie some black american have caucasian roots but banyama tshu njengelahle. so physically thy are black but in terms of DNA they are caucasian.
you should be aware that scientific racial classification is a moral-religious-ethical hot potato hence scientist cannot risk their skin and do it.however i think you should know that because of genes abantu abanyama they are resistant to certain diseases than other racially different people,or vise-versa.i think kucacile ukuthi races are to a small extent genetically different but because of morallity scientists wont dwell there.

Icontribution yakho is very welcome.
Uma uthi physically they are black but in terms of DNA they are caucasian. On what terms then are they black? What is it that makes them black? Correct me if I am wrong but in order for them to be black it is pre-requisite that they have the gene (DNA) for melanin production (that is fully functional). If this gene is part of their DNA, and clearly it is, how then do you state that "in terms of their DNA they are caucasian" What fraction of their DNA is as you say caucasian? Thus is is neccessary to qualify that statement of yours and say that some of their DNA is of caucasian origin.

As for resistance to diseases- I am aware of that. But what you also dein to mention is that there are differences within races as well. Take for example the so called sickle cell trait and its distribution. Not all regions of sub-Saharan Africa have this trait notable south Africa. Thus within blacks of sub-Saharan origin there exists genetic differences.

this discussion has veered off from my original point that:genetic testing can say whatever one wants as it is prone to deliberate missinterpretation.
ithi ngicacise.
these stories of personalised genetic histories(PGH)are VERY appealing to the public hence TV channels can make a quike buck by peddling highly controversial documentaries which claim scientific confirmation- hence a story of a genetic link between jews and the obscure Lembas is a great sell!!
the genetic link itself is technically true but it is the interrpretaion that is a problem.firstly, this race-science thing uses clustering analysis which does not tell a hitsorical story instead of linages which do.this means taht they do not rely on molecular linages but rather on correlationsbetween the allel frequancies.
jews may have 84% middle east genomic ancestry but still have a lembe mtDNA.this does NOT mean lembes are jews and jews are lembe's,finish and klaar.consider a ndebele who in 1840 raped a shona woman who bore him a son who married a shona and whose grandsons married shonas. after 2000 years his descendants will be shonas but it wont mean that shonas of then will be ndebeles(or zulus) though dna will say there is a fragment of ndebele y-chromosome-dna.
as one inherits his y-chromosome DNA and mtDNA from one ancestor (from your father/mother)in every genaration as we go back in time the percentage it represents greatly diminishes to a tiny fragment of ones ancestry.after 190 generations it becomes negligible. i hope ngicacile.
NB on the same principle some blacks americans may be physically black because of a dominant melanin production gene but they may have 85 percent caucasian ancestry.

bear in mind that scintifically there is no 100% race but a certain percentage of genetic ancestry might be considered a race ie if you have 85% african ancestry you are black and if you hhave 85% european genetic ancestry you are white!!there is no one who is 100% black/white/mongolian etc

Didn't you have a better example than this madness?

You claim that genetic testing can say whatever one wants? If that is the case can it be used to say (sic) that Bellarmine Chatunga is the love child out of union between Grace and your goodself?

According to you the link between the Lemba and the Jews is technically true but the problem beocmes one of interpretation. I think you may have advertantly hit the nail on the head right there on the question of interpretation.If it as you say a question of interpretation what then makes your interpretation more valid than that of any other person who takes a diametrically opposed stance? You are clearly at pains to deny the Lemba their linkage with the Jews for reasons best known to you and you alone. Perhaps one day you will be happy enough to share those with the forum.
On the question of the Shona who is unfortunate enough to be raped by a Ndebele. Many generations later those descendants might very well be "Shona" but the critical point is that they will have Ndebele/Zulu ancestry within them and thus technically speaking are not "pure" Shona.

Black Americans are not just physically black but genetically black as well. And this 85% caucasain ancestry that you ascribe to them where does it derive from? Is this figure published in a peer-reviewed article in a reputable journal?. If it is would you be so king as to provide that link? Or is this a figure that you have simply plucked from fresh air to bolster what is fast becoming an unsustainable argument

what do you mean by genetically "black"? nxa usitsho ukuthi genetiaclly black is genetically african, you are wrong ngoba according to the HUMAN GENOME PROJECT around 17% of african americans actually have caucasian roots.this is not surprising considering that the slave owners regulary raped slaves.
about the link between the lemba and the jews being technically true i think mpumz101 made it clear in an earlier tread that all humans are related hence technically xhosas have a genetic(most likely mtDNA) relationship with jews. just like zulus can be related to pembas etc.correct me if i'm wrong!!

in mind i had population genetics just like the documentary claimed a link between two groups not individuals.

.
comment on this interprettation, bearing in mind that halffull half empty theory:if oprah claims to be genetically zulu, it doesn't mean she is zulu.it means she has a (minor-diluted ancestral)link with the forefathers of the current zulus who themselves may not have been zulus then ie tribes come from tribes
.
nothing is pure whatever. in genetic science there is no pure race/tribe
.
this is false.through this commecialised DNA profiling (PGH) some have been disappointed when they discovered that they are not african after all as they have strong caucasian roots
. check out the results of the human genome project bearing in mind that i said some(around 17% of those sampled) not all black americans

gentle lets remember that there are 12 tribes of judah and some of them are said to have gone down south. The lemba have a similar culture to the jewish religion and they have always been like that. They even have rituals that are judaic and treat the sabath like jews.

By the way, the original jews were not the same in appearance as you see them today. The new appearance is a result of mixing with caucasions / European races and others. Most of you only start hearing of jews when hitler is massacaring them. this is because they have been stateless and in the wilderness for thousands of years. In this period they have been mixing and changing appearance.

If we agree that the original egyptians were black ( judging by the nose of the sphinx that the Arabs have been able to destroy in order to hide the fact that blacks could have built pyramids)then surely Joseph of his multicoloured jacket must have looked like them otherwise how else would his brothers, when they went to Egypt during famine, not be able to recognise a white jewish boy amongst black africans?

The bible also says Moses was as black as charcoal. Some authorities actually come to a conclusion that actually africans are the original Jews including the way we believed. Remember Moses going up the mountain to get instruction? Does that not sound african. Remember the animal sacrifices that are in the old testament, we still do that today. The Jewish book, the Torah is all about laws, and these are so similar to what we have in africa( especially bantus). These laws include how do you marry, how to pay dowry (lobola), what to do if you find out your new wife was deflowered before marriage ( belive me this used to happen before in zimbabwe whereby elders would wait in the morning after the wedding to get the veddict, it still happens in malawi and tongas of Zambia, Ask elders in Zimbabwe), laws on what is your punishment if you have commited adultery, if you cattle get into somebody's fields, where to keep a grinding stone, circumcision of boys ( unfotunately or fortunately for the Zulus and Ndebeles, Shaka stopped circumcision as he felt it was a waste of time instead he thought people should devort more time to training to be warriors.

The bible says people used to go up the mountains to communicate with god. Does that not sound African? The story in the bible is about africans even up today. Does it not sound biblical. Ever heard of Njelele? The old testament is some a reflectiion of the african religion.

I stand to be corrected but i am not far fromm the truth. Look at what africans have gone through, colonialism, enslavement? Maybe rastafarians are correct when they say africans are god's chosen and all what happened or happens to them is meant to bring them closer to god.

Ngiqedile minaKhuboni.

You could not be more wrong even if you tried! The reference to the African americans being genetically black was not in any way to insunuate that they are genetically African!!!!. You seem to be at pains to accept the simple concept that the physical characteristics of an organism are determined by its genes.If these African-americans have a black skin as well as other features regarded as negroid that is because they have the genes (DNA). Thus in so far as they show the physical characteristics of being black it must be because they are genetically so!!
Are you saying that 17% of the African-americans sampled in the HGP had 85% caucasian ancestry? Are you also saying that to all intents and purposes there people displayed the phenotype associated with blacks- black skin and other negroid features?? Your figure of eighyfive (85%) seems extremely high and again I ask have you plucked this from fresh air? My own rudimentary search has revealed somewhat lower percentages of European ancestry in some African american populations:-

and




The link that shows a relationship between the Lemba and the Jews is a specific one rather than a general one based on the inter-relatedness of humans that Mpumelelo was referring to. Do you seriously think that a documentary would have been made about the Lemba if the link was general and not specific???

Secondly the documentary which I am led to believe neither of you had the pleasure of watching is by no means the first to make that link between the Lemba and the Jews. A contributor above refers to the oral tradition of the Lemba that describes their Jewish ancestry. Thus the claims of the Lemba to this Jewish ancestry have been subject to examination for a considerable period of time.
The earliest article that I have come across (The sero-anthropology of the Rhodesian Lemba -Human Heredity 28 (4), pp. 261-269) was published in 1978. This article concludes that the Lemba have no relationship with groups outwith of sub-Saharan Africa.
Another article published in 1996 whose abstract herewith follows:-


Another article published in 2000 states:-

These just but two scientific articles published in a peer-reviewed journal in which research by two independent groups seems to collaborate the claims of the Lemba on their Jewish ancestry. You will note that the persons/groups involved derive from pre-eminent and top drawer institutions such as University College London, University of Oxford and University of California.

What the above establishes is that
a) it is not the makers of the documentary that have assigned Jewish ancestry to the Lemba.
b) it is the Lemba who have claimed their Jewish ancestry through accounts of their oral history
c) the scientific linkage between the Jews and the Lemba is not based on a company or companies selling personalised genetic histories or a one off scientific study
d) some of the research has been carried out in institutions with a reputation for scholarship and standards to uphold. Thus it is safe to conclude that their word is credible.
e) the linkage between the Lemba and the Jews, on the evidence presented appears to be specific rather than general as claimed by mpumelelo.
f) the genetic ancestry is researched via Y-chromosome mapping.

I have not come across any paper that disputes this linkage.However since in one of your posts you state without doubt and much authority that " jews may have 84% middle east genomic ancestry but still have a lembe mtDNA.this does NOT mean lembes are jews and jews are lembe's,finish and klaar.", perhaps you would be so kind enough as to provide links and or abstracts where this specific genetic ancestry linkage is disputed.
Secondly would you be so kind enough as to provide the links in which Oprah makes claims for being Zulu or possessing Zulu ancestry. This because google has an article that suggests that Oprah's genetic ancestry has been traced to Liberia. (Unless of course there is a Liberia in Zululand or a Zululand in Liberia - ukufunda akupheli!!)

yaze yaba mnandi indaba!! jazelindizayo and mpumelelo101 you would do better as lawyers on the opposite side!!
mpemelelo101 says that population genetics ought not to be taken seriously because they use stratified sampling. statistically he is correct because the sampled strata though generally accepted and technically correct, might actually be no represantative hence the results should ber handled with care.
jazelindizayo you seem to be convinced that there is a link between the lembas and jews backed by oral tradition and genetic tests.mpumelelo101 says that its pure western-commercialism abusing genetic-science.such conclusions are technically true but fundamentally wrong.
jazelindizayo you qoute credible sources which claim a up to 22.5% european ancestry for some black-americans whilst mpumelelo101 claims up to 85%. because of stratified sampling both of you might actually be correct.
you also claim oprah is liberian.according to the sundaytimes-sa when she presented her girls only academy she claimed genetic tests confirmed she was zulu though local historians disputed how her ancestors could have been raided from sa to west africa for slavery.
it would be intresting to know which tribe is older the lembe or the jews.

amatshono bafethu i hope likahle lana elikhona.let me make it clear ukuthi i have nothing against lembas "being" jews.maar i have problems with people who abuse science-be they reputable scintists, television stations or obscure tribes seeking publicity.
genetically jews are not the oldest tribe,the oldest tribe is black african (source:human genome project)at present i am verifying whethet it is a minor east african tribe(forgot the name:source, national geographic)or the san(source:bbc documentary).

humans and apes share a genetic history but it doesn't mean that apes are humans.historically there were no ndebeles before mzilikazi nor zulus before shaka.there were various tribes battling each other.so if some black american dna points to a genetic history with the current zulus it doesn't mean he is zulu.it means he shares ancestors with the people who today are known as zulus but the ancestors themselves might have been something else.ie ancestors of people who we know as zulus today are varied but shaka moulded them.they were not zulus before shaka moulded them.they were whwtever they were.

Very interesting topic indeed. I like it when you say
Guys in your discussion I note that you have not discused or mentioned the role of the Khoikhoi and the San as inregards to physical features being influenced by DNA and the environment where these ancient people once lived. Has anyone ever scrutinised the Khoikhoi and San cave drawings and the lost scrolls in the bible? Could there not be a link? food for thought. About the lembe, I cannot say much but to say that I apreciate what you guys have contributed on the subject.

On onother note, Could we also say the Tonga of Binga might be biologicaly related to the Jamaicans? Where did the Tonga come from before settling in Zimbabwe? Could they have not run away from the slave traders in the Weswt of Africa and found themselves in Southern Africa? Lets have onother documentary on this one.

Ngiyabonga.

The debate is far above me, very interesting and very confusing at the same time. I wish i could understand your scientific terms.

With the greatest of respect I think that you are in danger of loosing the plot on a monumental scale as some of your statements now begin to border on the outrageous. You assert though you show no evidence that science has been abused in this issue of the Lemba and their genetic ancestry. In this specific issue I fail to see where the abuse of science has occurred. We have established that the Lemba have claimed for themselves this Jewish ancestry. How do you propose that the veracity of this claim be invesitgated? By soothsayers and fortune tellers gazing into crystal balls? At least two independent scientific groups had the wherewithal to embark on what is clearly a detailed, comprehensive and rigorous study that within the limitations of the tools that they used appears to suggest that the Lemba's claim of Jewish ancestry may be consistent with their oral tradition. How does that constitute an abuse of science?
Granted that there are organisations and companies out there selling genetic ancestry kits/tests to the general public. Because of the nature of these tests and their limitations the results are as you point out questionable and open to interpretation which may constitute an abuse of science. However it has been established above that the Lemba have been subject to at least two detailed and comprehensive scientific studies whic are a far cry from the world of kits that can easily be purchased over the internet. Thus your assertion that in the case of the Lemba science has been been abused sounds hollow and baseless.

You then go on to dismiss them (Lemba) as an obscure tribe that is seeking publicity. Again you show no evidence for these essentially wild and colourful claims. What is the measure of obscurity and by what authority do you dismiss the nation of the Lemba as publicity speaking and obscure? Let me state that I am not Lemba but that you should dismiss them in a quintessentially cavalier, bordering on unbridled arrogance, manner is something that I personally find repulsive and offensive.

It is my understanding (though I could be wrong) that the Lemba not only share a genetic link with the Jews but also have cultural practices that are similar if not identical. Thus their claim, it would appear, extends beyond just a genetic link.
Another very important point that you appear to be missing is that the Lemba's claim to Jewish ancestry precedes the testing that has been done unlike that of you african american who claims Zulu heritage after a test has been done.

.

i have some intresting info which i think will spice this debacle about the lembas claiming to be jews.
1.arabs and jews share most genes.there are arabs with the same jewish y-chromosal gene which some lembes have
2.between jews and arabs,arabs were the only ones to set base in southern africa, in sofala,moz.
3.initially arabs practiced judaism before the islamic invasion of arabia.
4.the lembes claim jewish ancestry through y-chromosome analysis.however only one in ten have this gene.also it is only the buba elements of the lembe who have it in concentrations similar to those found in israel.this actually implies that the buba elements may be descendants of the arabs who practised jadaism and opted to stay is sofala and sorroundings(including venda(mapungubwe) and GreatZim) after the islamic invasion because they would have been forced to convert.
its similar to the fact that only the zansi elements of the ndebele are genetically expected to havu zulu dna though because of inter marrying the other clanc who are noe part of the ndebele may have them in lower concerntrations
5.the lembes claim to have wholly built great zim.however this is disputed by achaelogical evidence, however the arabic influence of especially the great enclosure is obvious as it is very similar to those found in yemen.
6. the lembes innermost rituals actually use muslim arabic rather than jewish hebrew. this futher bolsters the point that they are descendants of arabs who practised judaism
7. tribes with the same y-chromosome are also found in aolng the entire east african coast, from moz to athiopia to yemen.the lembes dispite being in venda and south-western zim are no exception as arabic traders regularly moved inland and theses places are not very far from the coast.

food for thought jazi and mpumz

There you go again making authoritative and substantive statements which are NOT backed up by form of evidence - credible or otherwise. Since when did you become the doyen of what is and what is not open for debate? You state that


I am tempted to ask what logic given the lack thereof in some of the arguments that you make!! It is not a case of me insisting that the Lemba are Jews or you insisting that they are not, rather it is a case of what the Lemba say about their identity. Do they say that they are Jews or not? For the upteenth time allow me to make this simple points
a) it is not the scientist or Channel four who foisted upon the Lemba the issue of Jewish ancestry.
b) It is the Lemba themselves who have claimed Jewish ancestry as narrated via oral history. Indeed some of them have claimed to be Jews (demonstrated below).
c) Moreover a medical practioner a Dr Wapnick states:-

d)Scientific investigation/s were carried out into these claims. Again at this juncture I would like to pose the question that you have studiously ignored - If not through scientific investigation how do you propose that the claims of the Lemba be verified?
e) The scientific study/ies have come back and seem to support their claim of Jewish ancestry.
f) This together with their cultural practices appears to validate their claim of being Jews.
g) there does not appear to any articles published in the scientific press that dispute the specific genetic studies carried out on the Lemba. I have not come across any and neither, would it, appear have you. The disputation of Prof Soodyall appears to be a general one rather than specific and relating to the studies on the Lemba.

Now what or where in the above narrative (a-g) is illogical?

While you may dismiss the genetic ancestry with what is fast becoming customary arrogance how do you explain the oral history of the Lemba that claims Jewish ancestry? How do you explain the prevalence amongst the Lemba of diseases that present in Judaic populations? How do you explain the cultural similarities between Judaic peoples and the Lemba?

I would be grateful if you would see it fitting to answer these and earlier questions that I have posed to you rather than the seemingly baseless assertions that you have been blurting out.

To return to the issue of what the Lemba say about themselves, in 1999, a Professor Matshaya Mathivha then president of the Lemba Cultural Association (SA) stated


Thus to paraphrase the Lemba are jews whether or not mpumelelo101 of the ether likes it or not!! But on a more serious note what the good Professor is alluding to above is the notion that because they have now settled in Southern africa their culture, norms ideas and ideals have evolved and may thus not be 100% similar or compatible with the mainstream Jews of Israel, but nonetheless the core Judaic principles remain intact.
The question of identity is an imnportant one - what is clear is that the Lemba seemingly identify themselves as Jews seemingly on the basis of their oral tradition (backed up by science) while on the other you do not identify them as Jews for reasons that thus far remain murky.
Whose definition of who the Lemba are should prevail- that which they have come up with themselves or one which you are seeking to foister on them?

jazelindizayo i know the fact that it i the lembes who claim to be jews backed by science.i have no nkinga with this all i am saying is scrutinize,scrutinize and scrutinize.
population genetics is no way near personal genetics in terms of reliability and universal interpretation.that why i said one can derive whatever conclusion he desires from population genetics because it does not tell the whole story.it is about bits and pieces.
the buba clan of the lembe actually has the greatest concerntration of this y-chromosome-what does this tell you?
this y-chromosome is common along the east coast of africa.what does this tell you?
arabs dominated this coast to do their trading.initially arabs practiced jadaism and the innercore beliefs of the lembe are done in arabic instead of hebrew.what does this tell you?
personally i have no respect for oral history, its highly unrelible and reflects wishes of the teller with a little truth if any.
to me i will rather say the buba clan of the lembes have a middle eastern anscestry but to say the lembes have a jewish one, its a far fetched idea, regardless of what they say!

I don't know, but i think for example in our own situation, we have many tribes and we have inter-married. So you might find that those who have not been involved in inter-marriages for a long, lets say they came from Zululand or Natal, they will have more genes resembling those people. Maybe the Bubha tribe has been too strict when it came to intermarriages before. I am just speculating majents. I am following this debate with great interest. Mpume you said that Lembas are likely to be Arabic than Jewish, but how do you know whether those Arabs did not have Jewish blood? I agree this topic is complicated, the more i try to understand it the more i get confused

It is ironic that I am being urged to scrutinize, scrutinize, scrutinize by one who has spent the best part of this discussion dodging, diving and ducking questions put to him eg a) Why does a medical practioner make reference to high incidence of people of Lemba origin presenting with diseases that are common amongst Jews? b) How do you propose that the claims of the Lemba to Jewish ancestry be investigated? Before you attempt to remove the twig in my eye I would stongly urge you to remove that great big log of oak in yours!

Deary deary me it seems that we have come full circle - you started of claiming that the genetic link between the Lemba and thier Jewish ancestry was no more so than that between say the Xhosa and the Jews i.e the link was general rather than specific. Now that you have been challenged with credible evidence it would appear that you have now shifted the angle of your denialism to focus on the genetic linkage between the Lemba and the Jews and the Arabs. Again you appear to be in denial about the speficity of the link and tending towards the general though this time the general is restricted to Arabs.

In one of my posts I provided you with the links/abstracts of two articles. I was hoping that you would do some "homework" and take the trouble to seek out those articles and read them in their entirety. It would appear that my hopes were misplaced.
Nevertheless, in response to the questions that you ask may I respond by a question: - What is a Semite? Does it refer to Jews or people of Middle Eastern origin? When you have answered that question go back to the first reference (the one published in 1996) and read the abstract again with special attention to the claims made about the origins of the Lemba's chromosomes.
Once you have done that I strongly urge you to visit this link
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288118#RF23
This is the link to the full text article of the second reference. Once you have done that may I urge you to pay particular attention to the justification of that study relative to the first reference. Having read the justification I would urge you to pay particular attention to the what the authors say about the Cohen modal haplotype particularly it distribution among Semites and amongst the Lemba. If this is the chromosome that you are referring to when you assert that
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then you may want to revisit/revise this assertion.

As for the Lemba carrying out their practices in Arabic rather than Hebrew you might want to read up on where the Lemba claim to have migrated from paying particular attention to where Sena is located and what the predominant language is.

Oral history
While you enjoy the luxury of being able to dismiss oral history as being unreliable it would be worth bearing in mind that even written history is not infallible and free from the bias of the recorder of the events. And while we are on the subject of dismissing oral history just how much of the history of your own people Amandebele do you dismiss with the same disdain given that much of it has, in keeping with many African communities, been passed down via the oral route?

The genetic testing carried out on the Lemba alone does not tell the complete story of their origin/s. The genetic testing must be taken in the context of both historical narratives and cultural determinants.

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i am sick and tired of especially blacks claiming to be ("current,ie whitish jews in power in israel") jews based on an oral history link, which in this case is allegedly backed by science when it is very clear, at least racially, linguistically& regionally that they are not.they might have genetic history maar they are NOT jews. jews are jews and lembas should accept being amalemba and stop being amalema.just like ndebeles are ndebeles and zulus are zulus. ndebeles lot their zulu-ship when they moved noord and lemba lost their jewish-ness when they moved south. they are now lembas not jews,jy verstaan??
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lembas should stop clinging to their orally sexed up jewishness and move on with their lives. lembas are lembas and jews are jews.it doesn't need a rocket scientist to identify a jew just like it doesn't need an antrolopogist to pick an african from whites, jews aborigins indians etc.
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aren't they?how many are they?is lemba an official language anywhere?is lemba literature readily available?are they geographically defined?
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they should de-colonize their minds and move on. their claims do nothing but harm us blacks as we appear not to be proud of being black. they are perpetuated by white racists who do such documentaries.
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coincidentally he is white but besides this techically he can come with the same conclusion if he practiced in arabia where "jewish genes" are of similar composition. then lembas will be arabic and also jewish, besides being lemba?

Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

In an earlier response to one of your posts I warned that you were in danger of loosing the plot. I was wrong and for that I apologise profusely. For, on the evidence of this that you have written above, it would appear that you have never had the plot in the first instance.

For starters what has the Lemba's claims of being Jewish got to do with pride in being black? Have the Lemba stated that by claiming Jewish ancenstry they are here-by renouncing their "blackness". And precisely where have the Lemba stated that they are not proud to be black?

You then go on to make the frankly ridiculous claim that the white people who made the documentary are racist!!A documentary which you have confessed you knew nothing about until you stumbled upon this thread startred by Mthakathi. So by all accounts you have not watched the documentary nor do you know anything about the makers of the documentary.Yet despite the glaring gaps in you knowledge you accuse the documentary makers of being racist! On what grounds, then, do you make these scurrilous assertions of the documentary makers being racist? Is it by virtue of their being white that renders them racist?

And decolonizing the mind is you proposal for investigating the veracity of Lemba Jewish ancestry claims? What precisely does that mean and how does it solve the conundrum at hand??

I cannot honestly say whether or not Lemba literature is readily available not can I tell you to the nearest ten what the population of the Lemba is.What level of population qualifies a tribe/nation so as to make it unobscure?
However, what I find staggering is that being an official language has now become a measure of obscurity. In so far as I know Lemba is not an official language of any country. In Zimbabwe there are three official languages - Ndebele, Shona and English. KwaMthwakazi alone there exists a plethora of other languages including Khalanga, Nambya and Tonga. Again to the best of my knowledge none of these languages are official languages anywhere - does that render them Khalanga, Nambya and the Tonga obscure and hence insignificant?

You then claim that the Lemba lost their Jewishness when they moved south.Are you finally throwing in the towel and admitting that the Lemba have Jewish ancestry? How else could they loose their Jewishness if they were never Jews as you havee been arguing? Academic accounts relate how a sighnificant proportion the cultural practices of the Lemba show Judaic leanings (and most certainly Semitic traces). On what grounds do you then claim that they have lost their Jewishness? What is the definition of Jewishness?

It is unfortunate that you have to resourt to slogans - the Lemba are the Lemba, the Jews are the Jews, Ndebeles are ndebeles and Zulus are zulus to bolster your argument.This is cheap and frighteningly Zanu-esque (The land is the economy and the economy is the land!!). For a man who swept in into this thread and jumped in feet first as some kind of expert on genetics and statistics it is sad to see you reduced to this state of incoherence. I guess your above post in particular and others in general bear witness to the fact that genetics is not your strong suit despite all the bluster and brimstone that you bring to the thread. I guess that means that none of the substantive questions that I asked you will ever be answered but I dare to dream!!

Between the two gentlemen i don't know who is correct, they both exhibit superior knowledge when it comes to genetics, but i am worried about Mpumelelo's emotional and divesionary tactics. Jazi asked him some pertinent questions, but he has not answered most of them and now it seems he is increasingly becoming incoherent in his arguements. Please go back to Jazi's questions and try to answer them, if you don't know them it does not kill to say i am sorry i don't have any clue.

guys can someone clarify what a jew is. is someone a jew by the bible or millitary power or tribe or race or region or length of nose or colour of eyes. does practising jadaism make someone a jew? does having fragments of DNA which coincidentally some people who claim to be jews make some black african a jew. after mpumeleo101 and jazelindizayo answer these questions in layman's terms i think sanity will prevail!!

JAZELINDIZAYO, i NEVER disputed the DNA link between Lembas and Jews(see my first tread). i made it clear that lembas are black and jews are whitish hence lembas can't and will never be jews. they may share a genetic history. however i am sceptical of the interprettation of population genetics. its never as simple as it sounds.
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it was sarcasm which you misstook for mockery. actually i support DNA analysis though i have issues with the interprettation of population genetics.
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i agree 100% with you. lembas should smell the coffee and wake up!!
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i sincerely apologize for the unintentional mistake. i could bear a shona man raping a scarce and precious ndebele woman!!

i also agree with you 100%!!
[quote=mthakathi27] you said lembes can be likely to be arabs not jews how do you know that arabs did not have jewish?[quote].
southern africa has a history of arabs and not jews. actually arabs and jews share DNA hence i suggest lembas are jadaised arabs!!
FOR THE RECORD i do not dispute any scientific evidence regarding the lembes maar i dispute the interprettation thats why i said scrutinize, scrutinize and scrutinize!!.
with all due respect i also think that khalangas, nambyas, tongas are obscure and insignificant. if we don't rescue ourselves (ndebeles) we are likely to be thrown into the same pit. sophaphama sesinga mashona!!!

Again rather than addres the questions put to you you merely attempt to muddy the waters even further by going through the thread and picking out issues to address most of which have absolutely nothing to do with me or any of the questions that I put to you!!

You may fool some people some of the time but you can not fool all the people all of the time.

Let me hasten to say that by no means do I make claims on being an expert on genetics (or anything else for that matter!). I am but a mere son of the soil odobha ambhimu for a living who nonetheless has a fascination with the world around me!
Be that as it may let me say that Mpumelelo you may have managed to hoodwink some forumites into thinking that you have a suerior understanding of genetics and hence you are some kind of expert on the subject but the posturing and posing that you have adopted throughout this thread tells me that you are no expert on this subject. There is no one with a superior knowledge of genetics who would be at pains to describe an organism as being physically one thing and genetically another as you did when you asserted that the black Americans were physically black but genetically Caucasiane!!! This is because this concept of the relationship between phenotype and genotype is an elementary one that is (used) to be taught at O'level via the "story" of Gregor Mendel and his peas!!

You are also fast becoming the master at self contradiction. On the one hand you claim that you have never disputed the link between the Lemba and the Jews but in the very next breath you suggest that the Lemba are Arabs!!! If this is not disputing the link then I do not know what it is!

A couple of days ago I asked you, amongst other questions, what a Semite is. I ask again What is a Semite? Given the deafening silence coming from you it is apparent to all that you have no clue what a Semite is. If you knew what a Semite is you would not be jumping up and down about the Lemba being Arabic but not Jewish!!!
According to http://ardictionary.com/Semitic/4503, http://www.answers.com/topic/semite, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite a semite is term that may be used to describe a group of people that belong to amongst others Jewish and Arabic peoples. Indeed the the first abstract in one othe references that I posted earlier in this thread states


This is because the "tests" that they had used could not distinguish between Arabs and Jews. The "tests" could distinguish between Bantu and Semtic ancestry markers and significantly the Bantu cohort used in the study was found not to contain Semitic markers in their Y chromosomes. I recall that I also asked you to read the full article of the second scientific study and the justification for that study. It would appear that you have failed to do so for reasons best known to yourself. However one of the justifications of the second genetic study on the Lemba was to attempt to resolve this ambiguity. This is where the Cohen Modal Haplotype comes into the fray as the results of the study suggest that this is relatively reliable marker for Jewish ancestry that is, it is occurs with greater frequency in the Jewish population than in the Arabic.If I am not mistaken the study found that this marker occured at a higher frequency in the Lemba than in the Arabic sample used in the study. What this does is :

a) makes your calls to scrutinize, scrutinize scrutinize sound hollow for you have failed to do precisely that in this instance.

b) blows a huge hole into your argument that the Lemba are jadaised (sic) Arabs

c) tells me that you have not read the articles in their entirety or

d) if you have read them then you have not understood them otherwise you would not insist on making these wild, ludicrous and ridiculous statements that you have been making and finally

e) puts the final nail into the coffin that you are some kind of expert on genetics!

That your definition of being a Jew seems to be centered on the colour of your skin epitomises what is at best woolly headed thinking and at worst an alarming level of ignorance. Again the first reference of the genetic studies says that around 40% of the chromosomes of the Lemba are of Bantu origin. And in case you did not know one of the phenotypic traits of the Bantu is that they are black!! A more holistic definition would extend beyond skin colour to include determinants such as culture, religion and historical narrative.Through their oral history the Lemba have claimed Jewish ancestry and some of their religious practices are accepted to be Judaic. This taken together with the scientific evidence (which by no means is perfect but at the present moment is the best thing going) seems to lend credibility to the Lemba's claims.

It is ironic that you then end your rambling post with warnings of the Ndebele loosing their identity. The story of the Lemba is essentially one about identity. I think that it is remarkable that as a people they have maintained on oral tradition that tells of their origins for over two millenia. It is but a sign of a confused mind that on the one hand dismisses people/nations and tribes and seeks to deny them their right to notonly express but seek answers about their identity while on the other issues a call to arms for a tribe/nation to maintain its own identity>

I am not at liberty to speculate about the Lemba's frame of mind in claiming to be Jewish thus I cannot comment on whether this is a form of escapism or some form of deep hatred of themselves. I will leave that idle and baseless speculation/s to cyber-based selft styled genetic and pyschology experts such as you. Quite how you make that leap and twist of logic is beyond me in as much as you leapt to the conclusion that the makers of the documentary were racist. One is left to wonder who it is that should not only wake up and smell the coffee but drink it by the gallon as well - you or the Lemba?

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1.if the word "jews" above is being loosely used to refer to those jews which Hitler killed, those who invented the current israelli state and are oppressing palestines, then obviously the lemba ARE NOT jews.
2. if it is being loosely used to refer to people with fragements of DNA which happens to be found in the jews of today's israel. then lembas are jews.
3. if being a jew is practising jewish-like customs then lembas are jews.
4. if someone is a jew because his oral history claims so (though it is prone to being heavily sexed-up by the teller). then the lembas are jews
5. if one is a jew because a doctor in harare found that though they are physically black they suffer from conditions that also affect the jews in present-day israel then the lembas are jews.
6. if one is a jew because he believes in judaism, regardless whether he is black/white/aborigin/american indian then the lemba are jews.
my argument on the lembe not being jews is based on definition of jew in (1) above. even if i give them the benefit of serious doubt and accept that they descended from the current jews (as we know them)it doesn't mean they are jews. it means they have jewish ancestors.ndebeles are not zulus,lembas are not jews!

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my grade 00 english tells me that you took things out-of-context!
by saying that lembas may be arabic and not jewish i was clearly reffering to the fact that its the judaism-practising-arabs who were dominant in the east coast of africa. i speculated that with the islamic invasion of arabia they most likely didn't return to arabia for religious and personal safety reasons thus they mingled with the locals hence the lembe.

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i know and i don't dispute this. just like zulus and xhosas are nguni!!maar it doesn't mean that jews are arabs(or the opposite) hence my speculation of lembes being "judaised-arabs"(used loosely not literally ,jazelindizayo) doesn't mean i don't know semites. it actually shows that i understand it hence i didn't say lembes are semites which they are definately not hence they can't be jews because jews, like arabs are semites!!!!your very introduction of semites shows that you are running wild.

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don't you realize that they are painting blacks as desiring to be someother race? that these obscure-africans genuinely believe they are jews and they have oral tradition to prove it? i have no nkinga with blacks practising judaism but claiming to be jews..makes my blood boil. even Hitler knew what they looked like!!

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one can be able to deduce from a DNA sample whether some one is eg african or caucacian. with this in mind police can build a criminal's profile, however they have been shocked to discover that a gene's profile may indicate a criminal is caucasian only for him to be found as african american ie blackish. what this means is that he has more europian ancestry genes though he has a dominant black melin producing gene hence appearance can be deceiving!!!
NOTE jazelindizayo i might have appeared to ignore some of your questions maar i discovered that they are irrelavant to my position. ie i have little respect for the interprettation of population genetics hence regardless of how complicated the tests were(y-chromosomes, mtDNA,cohen modal haplotype) the fact that they use stratified sampling leaves a possibility that if a different sample is selected the results may not be the same. what do you say about the BUBA elements of the lemba having a significantly greater concentration of this gene, doesn't it ring a bell in your ear?don't you see that these Bubas might actually be descendants of the judaism-practising-arabs who mingled with natives.over time they lost their arabness though they continued practising judaism hence they are ignorantly claiming to be jews!!.
also i believe the results shouldn't be interpretted as literally you are. scrutinize, scrutinize...scrutinize!!

You may lead an ass to water but you cannot make it drink!

I must say that some progress has been made- you appear to have accepted that Lembas have genes that are of Semitic origin which is a far cry from the days you asserted that the Lembas were just as related to the Jews as were the Xhosa. Where you now seem to have a problem is that not only do the Lemba have a Semitic heritage but that Semitic heritage is Jewish! Still in your guise as genetic expert you are now proposing that the Lemba's semitic heritage is in fact Arabic a fact that appears to have eluded the finest minds at Witwatersrand, UCL, Oxford and UC (Davis) but was picked up by you. A man who has problems understading that you phenotype is determined genetically!!!

So you ignored some of my questions because they were not relevant to your position ehh Relevant to your position - yeah right or would tha be my big big black clubfoot!! I think it is more likely that you did not know the answers to those questions. Gooogle and Wikipedia are indeed wonderful tools but they have their limitations and you soon get to stage where specialist insight and understanding are required to understand the subject matter at hand.

And what is this monstrosity that you call a "judaism-practising-arabs" What is this beast that you have now concocted again seemingly from fresh air?!! Would you be so kind enough as to tell us where these Judaism-practising arabs (sic) can be found in this present day? If Arabs and Jews are Semites - why is it one is referred to as Arab and the other as Jew? In other words what differentiates a Jew from and Arab? I hope you do not refer to type and start going on about the colour of their skin!!
And while you are at it what does the legend of the Lemba say about their migration to what is present day Southern Africa. How did they travel from what they call Sena to their current location? Where did they pass through?

Had you been at Beijing there is no doubt that you would have won a gold medal for self contradiction:-
a) on the one hand you are ready to accept that the Lemba may be of Jewish descent but on the other you resort to slogans that say that Jews are Jews and the Lemba are the Lemba. I presume that the Lemba are the Lemba because they are black as you argued and Jews are whitish (sic). Do you understand that being the requirements of being Jewish extend to more than just skin colour and language? Again I ask how about religion and culture and history? What makes the Lemba Jewish is not the colour of their skin nor this genetic link. It is the sum total of their history, their religious beliefs, their culture and most importantly how they choose to identify themselves. Again this is where your analogy of the Ndebele and the Zulu falls flat on its monkey face - the Zulus that fled from Tshaka as they travelled along assimilated other tribes and peoples including both men and women and ended up a heterogenous society. On the other hand the Lemba are described as endogamous with little or no uptake of males into the society that are not Lemba. And so here we are with two nations - the Ndebele - a mixed breed with Zulu, Tswana, Shona, Suthu, Tonga, Khalanga and other elements while on the other is a relatively homogenous society (Lemba) at least patrilinearly. The Ndebele cannot thus claim to be Zulus today because of their heterogeneity while the Lemba on the other hand, because theirs is not as heterogenous society can still claim to be Jews as it would appear that within the constraints of the conditions that they find themselves in, they have managed to retain those aspects of their lives that allow them to identify themselves as Jewish. To that end comparing the Lemba and Jews to the Zulus and Ndebeles is akin to comparing oranges and apples and blows apart your professed ability to scrutinize!!!

b) As for the painting of blacks - on the one had you bleat that the Lemba are obscure but on the other you squeal that they are desiring to be someother race!! If as you say the Lemba are obscure what does it matter and to whom does it matter if they should wish to be some other race Mr Scrutinize?By the way do not hallucinate any further thinking that I accept this balderdash - I do not accept that the Lemba's claim of Jewish ancestry has anything to do with want to be of some other race. Where is this evidence of self loathing on the part of the Lemba documented? Who was it documented by? When was it documented?

As for the ringing of the bell about the Buba clan - that is old ground that I have covered in previous posts and to answer your question no it does not ring a bell. Should it?

About stratfied sampling - yes stratified sampling has its problems and limitiations but bear in mind that it used on an every day basis in many industries including the pharmaceutical to make life saving drugs. So that you should use the issues surrounding stratified sampling as a stick with which to beat down the cries of self identity of the Lemba will not hold water. Read my posts above, read the scientific papers if you cann understand them and make a note of the temperates language that is used- note how many times the word or phrase "the results suggest" or "it would appear that" appears in those papers. Do you seriously think that the minds are Wits, UCL Oxford and UC (davis) were unaware of the limitations of stratified sampling in their experimental design and that is has taken you to bring that up? The fact of the matter is that until such a time that samples are taken that prove otherwise the results of the genetic studies are as they stand, with all the caveats about their limitations.
As for the literal interpretation of the results- coming from you I will take that as a joke - a very bad one at that but a joke nonetheless!!!

Ekuhle.

Mina zihlobo I believe the Lemba History is only TRUE as it comes from the Lenba's mouth.

Singalibali ukuthi zigcwele izizwe ezizalwa ngokuhlanganiswa igazi. It is possible these Black Lemba claiming to be Jews were born by an immigrating Tribe of the Jews but the further South of the African Continent they went, the more darker wives they could find and finaly they lost their shade. THAT IS MY THEORY. But it is a posibility.

Amakhaladi esilawo ko Bulawayo akafuni ukuhlala labantu. Kodwa babhizi bayazala esintwini. Okungobhoyi kwakhona okuzalwayo kubhizi ku emphasizer ukuthi "Mina ngilikhaladi", okunye kumnyama kulathi abakaMblazi. Kulezibongo zesikhiwa mostly ezesi Moslem. Selake lananzelela nje zihlobo?

Kusasa okungo Khaladi lokhu loba kumnyama njani kungathi kungama Discendant abelungu lingathini? Thet is my theory. But it is a posibility.

Khonapha eNkundleni silamaNdebele azalwa yimihlobo yonke ebuthwa nguMzilikazi. Kodwa baqinisa ukuthi ubaba isibongo ngu Mgini, bangavezi ukuthi umama loba ugogo ozala ubaba ngu Moyo. Kodwa silokhu silabanye ababhizi ngokuthi ezinye izibongo ngezabeNguni angani bayakuqabuka njalo kusasebenza thina sizalwa kuMthwakazi. Ngumbono wami kodwa liqinisa.

Yimi okaMblazi.

Mthakathi


Mthakathi labanye abafowethu,linjani zihlobo,i happy that you the documentary but when i mentioned about the Lemba or Abalemba as their we are known kwaGodlwayo i did not expect anyone to believe me,but mina when i was born this is what i was told by my grandfather who himself could not speak fluent ndebele or shona or any zimbabwean language but mix them all at the same,like the last the time i was told off by Mthakathi for mentioning that i was Lemba,i am not going to argue with anyone about whether the Lemba are related to the jews or not because its not something that had not read in the books,its something i was told when i was born and was raised as a Lemba,if it is a fantasy then it will live with me for the rest of my life.

I mean bafowethu who am i my in my clan to say NO we are not what you say we are after this was passed on through generations,its just like any other person really,if someone was to come to you say you are not Kalanga for whatever reason i might be,i think you would jus redicule them and jus live as a Kalanga

My point at first was that we are ndebele as ndebeles are made up of many tribes from wherever together lamandbele from kwaZulu but it does not mean we do not have origins as long as u are not indebele leZansi,i was given a ndebele name because my father got married to a ndebele lady that is my mother but my father,my grandfather going back had Names Hassane/Rave/Manasse/Jenane,Mushab.

Now talking of DNA,below is the graph showing the DNAs of the Cohen jews and the Lemba okunye okunengi ngizakutshiyela lina ukuthi lixoxe ngakho,kodwa mina its not something i will argue about with anyone unless they are Lemba and they have valid points to prove to me that i am not what my grandfather and my people told me i was.

[img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4672/lembarq6.jpg]


kumbe cofa ngaphansi kwelink engaphansi lapha uyezifundela,ukuthi u believe it or not is upto you kodwa ngiyabonga Mthakathi labanye bonke ngele ingxoxo.

The Lemba-Cofa Lapha