hey pple.pple.come on what has this world come to now,a man makes a point and everyone is on top of him like nobody 's business.Mdu, i believe you guys did a tremendous job on that story and i believe seeing how pple. really got into the story ,you achieved your goals as i see it of showing some pple,how things are really going down "emazweni" ,in that it will eventually discourage those involved in those unZimbabwean acts.iqiniso liqiniso ,if that's wat some pple.are doing it should not be a sin showing it to the world ,the only sinners i see here are the porn stars,don't kill the messenger please! keep up the good work guys and "tell it like it is" and shame to the porn stars !!

Whilst Marcus you apologise to me you suddenly insult me which leaves me wondering who is the dullest between us.As for this argument about Tshaka i will brief you with facts as i have the History that was lectured to me Straight by a zulu proffesor not from WHITES AS YOU PROCLAIM whilst i was engaged with one university in Durban,Keep your eyes open my brother .As for so called Lobengula you want to be the spokesman for Marcus,you have succeeded well in your new endevour,congratulations but please even for the sake of pride reality is reality who can be proud of cowards and sell outs,in Zapu we had Lookout Masukus and company even during the days of real men like Mncumbatha we had puppets like Lobengula who sold our birthrights to whites after sugar and a Horse what a fool.mARCUS THE INTELLECTUAL you seem to be the most brightest fellow here what do you say about the Greatness and statesmanship of Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi .

[ 25.09.2003, 20:04: Message edited by: thrower ]

Thrower
I am not going to waste my precious time correcting your Micky-Mouse grammatical errors that even a grade seven pupil should know: So in Durban you were "lectured straight by a zulu proffesor". Its not surprising that this "proffesor" misled you because indeed he was not a professor. This is exactly what we have been preaching to you that you have been misled by con-men "historians" pausing as Zulu Professors.You ask Marcus to boggle his mind on "Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi". My brother i grew up in Tsholotsho during the Gukurahundi atrocities and i only went to school up to the mandatory Grade seven but i can still realise that you need to go back to grade 3 to learn your verbs , adjectives, pronouns and basic sentence construction. Let me take the initiatve: Say this after me " Benny and Betty are playing" "they are happy", "UThemba loAmkela abafana" etc etc. After this i will monitor your progress. Marcus please help me as well.
If you again still believe in the "history" that King Lobengula "sold" the country for "sugar" then heavens have mercy on you. Remember the Rudd concession.That was a complicated piece of legislation that was drawn in London by legal experts. Even today it would have required legal eagles to interprete. Look, Bra Thrower, the British used complicated pieces of legislation to hoodwink and colonise almost a third of the whole world and brought billions of people under their dominion, from India to Iraq, Australia,large parts of Africa (remember the Cape to Cairo dream),the West Indies ,Asia ,South America, Canada etc etc. If at this day and age you still believe that the only heroes were "Mbuya Nehanda", "Kaguvi" while King Lobengula sold out then i have nothing further to say except to say it's a challenge to abafowethu to correct you and others who hold such nonsensical idiological follies.

Mfowethu Thrower I think our colleague Lobengula has already shown you that you would be incorrect to assume that I have a better knowledge of history than some of our colleagues here.

Let us hope we can both learn from him and from Ndukuzibomvu whose distinguished use of SiNdebele shows how roses elegantly conceal thorns!

Mfowethu Thrower I cannot apologize to you for the previous apologies I have made to you because frankly your understanding of history and particularly the flatulent assertion you make about horses and sugar suggests to me you should return to Durban and ask the nutty professor who mistaught you so grievously to return whatever tuition fees you paid him.

Did you not know as our colleague Lobengula indicates that King Lobengula was fraudulently induced to sign the Rudd Concession?

Are you aware that after signing it his efforts to cancel the agreement by dispatching two of his senior advisers to the Cape, with the intention that they would then represent him to Queen Victoria in London, were subverted by Rhodes who was well aware of the dubious nature of the terms?

Are you aware that a number of the King’s advisers, including a London Missionary Society member, corruptly colluded with Rhodes’s delegates in the conclusion of the Concession?

I am afraid that when the dust has settled and history is written objectively and fairly Lobengula will be seen as a King who struggled against Imperialist forces which toppled Kings and Emperors across the planet with humanity, decency and principle.

He strove against forces which shifted continents, not just countries and he did so with honour.

He could have wiped out Rhodes’s representatives as the regicide Dingane, who you apparently prefer to honour over the King of Zulu Kings, did to Retief and others.

Do you know Dingane’s fate?

It was a fate predicted by King Shaka after the coward and his coconspirator had wounded him fatally.

Lobengula attempted to negotiate a middle path to save his Kingdom and his people with the Shakan prophecy and the example of Dingane in mind.

It was a noble, but doomed attempt, because of the nature of the historical forces aligned against him.

Who is remembered as the calculating schemer, Rhodes or Lobengula?

Who is remembered as a thief and who is remembered as a King in a tragic season?

When his Kingdom was invaded and he decamped northwards as his Royal City was put to flame there were a number of white people still in the City.

It was he who ordered that their lives should be protected.

A lesser man, a racist demagogue like people you and I know whose names do not deserve to be mentioned here, would have preferred to instil fear in the hearts of these whites and take their lives.

But Lobengula was a King.

Indeed he was a King and he does not deserve to be slandered on a site like this of all places.

Your comments reflect only on you.

As to King Mzilikazi and King Shaka.

Let me change the nature of your enquiry from “what does Marcus think of the two?” because that is not important, to “what did Shaka think of kaMashobane?”

Shaka the Ngqwele of iziNgqwele, later known by Dingiswayo as “Nodumehlezi”; who forged two hundred clans into a nation; who made a stabbing spear and great shield into the fighting weapons that changed the course of Southern and Central African history.

He respected Mzilikazi highly as a General and delegated to him an independent command. This tells us what Shaka thought.

When a dispute arose regarding certain cattle Shaka did not send a regiment to take the cattle and eliminate Mashobane’s son but he sent delegates to request them. This tells us what Shaka thought.

Finally where so many others who resisted Shaka bit dust, Mashobane’s son survived.

To travel a Great Trail, to forge tribes into a nation, to change the course of Southern and Central African history, to resist the Boers who defeated Dingane, and oblige them to sign a treaty which is the first legal instrument defining the sovereignty of our region of which I am aware.

He bequeathed survival as a legacy.

Mfowethu I understand why you have trapped yourself in a bitter denunciation of your own history and culture – it is ironically because to criticise Marcus you decided to demean the people and events that I value and respect.

Please – I have many faults, arrogance, hot temper, and impetuosity a few among them – attack me for the faults I have and not for the heroes I admire.

I am sure I am a bad chap – but I do have one virtue – an ability to respect what is respectable and admire what is admirable.

Marcus

I have to admit that you are a perfect Ndebele (as interpreted to refer to an one who subscribes to Ndebele culture,custom ,values ,history etc) gentleman. You remind me of King Mzilikazi's greatest friend uMtshede(Dr Robert Moffat), who Mzilikazi in his own words remarked that uMtshede healed him with his medicines when all his tradional healers had failed to heal him. He was also impressed with his medicines for wounds, particularly for wounded soldiers which contributed immensely to Mzilikazi's conquests in Central Africa. Kindly read PN Mnkandla's "Ilifa labo Baba" for a very good account of this in a coversation between Mncumbatha Khumalo (the man who crowned King Lobengula) and King Mzilikazi.

To be called an Ndebele gentleman by someone who is the epitome of an Ndebele gentleman is high praise indeed.

Lobengula I will keep my eyes open for Mr Mnkandla's book.

Actually as I write I have a copy of his work "Ulimi Lwethu" in front of me!

I do believe the friendship between the King and Moffat was an exemplary one in the sense that it does indeed set an example for men of honour in our own time.

Lobengula ungikhumbuza utitsha wami owayengifundisa,wayethi bafana nxa lingalaleli abanye sizacina sihlangana lani lithengisa amatamatisi endleleni eCity Hall,what a fool,he thought ubutitsha was the greatest achievement in life,he had no wisdon to identify the potential yomuntu othengisa amatamatisi ukuthi engaba ngusomabhizimusi.This teacher I met him six years down the line elokhu engutitsha,I offerd him a lift waginqa ngoba with his jaw-breakers wayelokhu ehamba ngenyawo.This shows ukuthi isikhiwa is not the gretest of the languages ndoda unless nxa wakholonayzwa i am sure vele lethayi awuyikhuphi lalamuhla.Whilst ngisakhuluma lawe let me remind you and Marcus that Tshaka was by no means greater than Cetshwayo,as much as you admire him there are those who don't,recently while I was in Durban,I was shocked to notice that Mugabe is a Hero of some,including Jacob Zuma you mentioned,why?,we all know.they may be wrong or they may be right,as much as me and you recognising Tshaka as a great ruler or a despot.Even if Mugabe killed may Ndebeles there are some Zulus who have no relations with the Ndebeles,simple, because the Ngunis were made uo of many tribes,If History could repeat itself Tshaka will be liable for War Crimes,including Hittler,AND Mugabe,but.... to some they are their Biggest Heroes.

[ 25.09.2003, 20:12: Message edited by: thrower ]

Lobengula for your own information amakeyboard skills angilawo so itete loku editor angilalo but uzame ukufaka ilogic kulokhu engikutshoyo,Richard Le Gallienne an English poet 1866-1947 once said,the cry of the little peoples goes up to God in vain,for the world is given over to the cruel sons of cain, I may not be the favourite of the webmaster or yours, but my brother there is a statue within me,you may despise me today but my brother i may offer you refuge one day,just like my former teacher,ngithi kuwe.There is nothing without a reason.ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT HISTORY IS MORE OR LESS BUNK.IT IS TRADITION,WE DONT WANT TRADITION,WE WANT TO LIVE IN THE PRESENT.And the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today.

[ 25.09.2003, 20:15: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mfowethu Thrower whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, all of us who are motivated to contribute at this site are in some sense connected to each other ngoba sonke siyazi ukuthi isiNtu sethu sithi umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu.

As such mfowethu ngiyakufisela okuhle kodwa and if there were no Thrower Marcus would be a lesser man.

Let me say three last things.

Firstly, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Without Shaka how would history have turned? Cetshwayo was the marked calf from the cattle kraal of the Shakan dynasty.

Secondly, if Shaka deserved to be a war criminal let us send Caesar, Napoleon, and many others including almost every English ruler from the past to The Hague.


Thirdly before you chew up and spit out the umbilical cord which connects you to your reality as an ingane yeNguni and so to the world, to history, and all that makes you human, consider this quote from that writer and teacher P. Ngobiwa Mnkandla:

"Phakathi kwezindimi zaseAfrika ulimi lwethu lolu lukhulu ngoba uluzwa uchapa uGwembe uluzwe uze uyenatha awoThukela."

Ngithi mina Ngqwele ufanele ukuziqhenya Mfowethu Majikijela!

You come from a great world and a big history mfanekhaya.

Don't belittle it.

Unfortunately too many others will be prepared to do this for you.

Mnumzane Marcus:

Uma ngikhumbula kahle nguwena okewasho ngaphambili ukuba inyoni yasemazulwini, kumbe inhlanzi yaselwandle, ithiywa ngekudlayo! Ngempela, yiqiniso phaqa lelo. Kusenjalo nje, kwenye inkathi inkulumo yakho sengathi iyangiphica, hleze kungenxa yokufiphala kwengqondo yami, angikwazi! Kungasenani, bengicela ungichasisele ngokucacile ukuba utshoni uma uthi wena amazwi ami afana namaluba afihle ameva, angikuzwa kahle nsizwa yakithi. Sengathi inkulumo yakho imumethe, angazi ntoni

Kengibuze kancane, uyasazi na isihlatshana okuthiwa yimbabazane?

Sala kahle.

Marcus my brother,I admit that we all stand at the shoulders of Giants and indeed i do not dispute that Tshaka is amongst one of them.But what I do not agree with was his abuse of his interlect,power and status while on his way to become what he is to date.My Giant in Zulu History is Cetshwayo who indeed through bravery humiliated the British and caused them permanent damage that even today if their descendants hear the mention of the word Zulu ,they have nightmares.Armed only with spears and knives,his men inflicted on the British the most crushing defeat that England has experienced at the hand of any dark race in morden times.In one skirmish he defeated and killed Prince Napoleon,heir to the French throne.It took England over one hundred million dollars and her best generals to cope with this African son of Zululand.Unlike Lobengula the King not the one from Inkundla ,he did not run away and disappear he flung his defiance at the white envoys"go back and tell the white men this and let them hear it well-myself and everyone of my men will die first.I give you to sunset to get out of my territory."In 1879 the British under Lord Chelmsford,invaded Zululand.fighting,spears to byonets,black against white not black on black,the Zulus met the British in Isandlwana in the first great battle perhaps the bloodiest and most dramatic war in African colonial History,The Zulu warriors through a disciplined democratic leader masssacred them, killing more british soldiers than those who had died in the entire battle of waterloo.A few days later ,King Cetshwayo defeated the British at Rorkes Drift,and laid siege to Etshowe.Though Cetshwayo was captured later in the battles that followed he was imprisoned for three years and later granted permission to plead his case before Queen Victoria.When he arrived in England he was accorded a reception such as few monarchs have ever recieved.The Zulus led by Cetshwayo,became fully recognised as a complex,fascinating civilization.though the death of over ten thousand zulu warriors had the aim of defending their independence against the British,their efforts ended in tradegy,they dealt the British their most shocking defeat,and Zulu resistance to the colonists won them unforgettable place in legend and History.
There is a Scottish Guy who wrote....."What a pity it is that I shall be beyond the bosphorus before the next tweed!But I yet hope to light my pipe with it in persia.
My northern friends have accused me,with justice,of personality towards their great litery anthropophagus,Jeffrey;but what else was to be done with him and his dirty pack,who feed by 'lying and slandering',and slake their thirst with 'evil speaking'?.And if it were not the Marcuses ,throwers would not be eligible,it seldom pays to be rude.It never pays to be only half -rude.

[ 24.09.2003, 12:46: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mtanenkosi Ndukuzibomvu

With almost any other contributor to this site I might try to respond as best as I can in SiNdebele but next to your poetic prose or prosodic poetry the best of efforts would seem as dirty water to fine wine.

So I will try to reply as best as I can and as best as I understood you.

I hope it will not surprise you to hear that it was not I who expressed a view regarding the proper domain of birds or fish.

Insofar as the saying is a scientific observation I suppose it is true as far as it goes.

But as a metaphor for the human condition I leave the birds to ornithologists and the fish to ichthyologists and proceed instead from the premise of the poet Alexander Pope that "The proper study of Mankind is Man."

What fascinates me is how when we think we are most different from each other then we are most alike.

Truly Pope calls Man "The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!"

I hope you will accept that as a person who relishes discursive displays of intellect as well as verbal skill when I speak of piercing intelligence which I refer to as thorns and a fine command of words which I refer to as roses only praise is intended.

One can only value and appreciate the qualities of eloquence and knowledge which you and our colleague Lobengula and most others bring to bear.

I don't intend to throw insults at anyone but I can only wish that every single contributor showed similar subtle judgement and linguistic skill.

So Mnu Ndukuzibomvu I hope I have grasped the nettle and provided a direct and sincere response.

I value nothing more from friend or acquaintance than to be taught and I do learn from you.

May our paths cross again.

Now from fine wine I turn to whine.

Thrower I am trying to respect you.

Please try to find it in your heart to find a way to help me to do so.

Yes, mfowethu, King Cetshwayo was all you say and more but as I seem to remember the way you jeered about the circumstances of the death of King Shaka would you care to comment about the disastrous results of the Anglo-Zulu War for KwaZulu and would you care to explain why if kaSenzangakhona's death (175 years ago today)was a comedy kaMpande's death should be seen as a tragedy?

with all due respect allow me to mindle with fareminded , elloquent ,intelectuals who by there contributions have taken me through a complete corse in my culture , history and history.
i can not find words which are equivalent to my gratitude to all of you who cntribute to this site ,ngesintu sikamthwakazi thina abakagodlawayo omnyama umahlabayithwale sithi lingadinwa qubekani mabutho kaLobengula .
lamuhla ngiyabona ukuthi bengingazi lutho,

special thanks
to marcus ,lobengula ,trower, ndukuebomvu

Sawubona njalo Mnumzane Marcus:

Ngizoqala ngokubonga impendulo yakho ecacile. Bheka, manje ngiyezwa laph'oqhamuka khona wena. Kuhle ukuthi sizwane kahle, ngoba phela uma abantu bengezwani, uyazi nawe ukuthi kuvame ukuchitheka igazi lendoda kumbe ubuchopho mpela!

Ngizothanda ukukushiya lalokh'ukudla kwengqondo: esiNtwini kuthiwa induku ibanjwa ngomzaca, cha ngesiduku. Kunjalo nje, kuthiwa inhlwa kayibanjwa ngekhanda. Ngethemba uyazi kahle wena ukuthi okulempondo akufihlwa emgodleni

Sala ngokuthula.

Mnu Ndukuzibomvu ngixolele, ngiphinde ngizame ukukhuluma iSiNdebele seNkosi.

Mtanenkosi ngilokhu ngikubonga, uma sengilezimpondo angisoze ngikuhlabe ngophondo.


Njengumfowethu Mahlaba Ayithwale ngijabula ukuthi singabantu abaphucukile, siyakwazi ukuxoxa, ukukhuluma, mhlawumbe ukuxabana, kodwa njalo siphinde sikhulume ukuze noma nini sihlangene.

Rev Lovejoy/Marcus

Marcus' summation that newzimbabwe.com will always 'flourish' was flattering. Rev Lovejoy's robust defence of our position makes us proud at newzimbabwe.com.
the debate has been intelligent, despite repeated attempts by Thrower to hurl spanners into the work of intellectuals. He is an intelligent man though, same as everyone who has contributed to this thread.
Thanks for the debate guys.

Mdu the site you have established at www.newzimbabwe.com will without question flourish indeed.

And deservedly so.

In my not-so-humble opinion the way you have reacted to provocative criticism from me with such a seasoned attitude has only augmented your reputation.

May I say again, without massacring a Royal language, that the tone and quality of the debate, the courtesy, the absence of real rancour, the sheer intelligence, has been an inspiration to me.

In particular the positivity of our colleagues Lobengula and Ndukuzibomvu makes me marvel again at human nature.

The UbuNdebele that was evident to me from early childhood is as alive here, in electronic form, as at any place at home.

You are true heirs and true survivors.

I know
you know
what
I mean.

May God continue to guide and protect each and every one of you and every other survivor at home.

Mdu,Rev Lovejoy,Ndukuzibomvu,Mahlaba Ayithwale and you my Brother Marcus you humble me nge sense of aproach yenu towards this constructive deb ate.To Mnumzane uLobengula I raise a question to you,"Do you know the MENSA ORGANISATION.?"Today there are more than 100 000 Mensas in 100 countries worldwide,next time you come across a Guy who writes with keyboard mistakes and a few grammatic errors he may be having an IQ which is higher than yours.
To my Great brothers lapha ku Nkundla who have given me the courage to throw those spanners at the intellectuals like what Mdu says,it gives me much laughter to realise that amongst you there are those who don't miss my intelligence.I do not write and hurl only but I read as well.What you write I read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted,nor to find talk and discourse,but to weigh and consider.Some writings are to be tasted,others to be read but not curiosly,and some few to be read wholly,and with diligence and attention.Some of your contributions also maybe read by deputy,and extracts made of them by others;but that would be only in the less important arguments and the meaner sort of Debate.Reading makes a full man;Conference a ready man;and writing an exact man;and therefore,if a man write little he had need have a great memmory;if he confer little he had need have a present wit;if he read little he had need have much cunning,to seem to know that he doth not.And its true,Histories make man wise;poets witty;the mathematicks,subtile;natural philosophy,deep;moral,grave;logic and rhetoric,able to contend.
My brother Marcus about Cetshwayo and Mpande,what they were was different to what Tshaka was that is a question I have long answered you.
History tells us that following Tshaka's assasination by Dingane,28 Sep. 1828, and Dingane's removal by Mpande in 1839-1840 the Zulu nation was fraught with uncertainty over the succession to the throne.
Mpande however had LEGITIMATE sons.Succession of the Zulu monarchy was based on the first born son of the great wife,However Cetshwayo was born to the Zulu Prince Mpande and his WIFE Ngqumbazi in 1826 at Mpande's HOMESTEAD embambongwenya,south east of Zululand.
Cetshwayo's name means the 'slandered one' possibly reffering to a rumour over his legitimacy spread by Dingane.Although Dingane had eliminated all his brothers,Mpande was alowed to live.He had producsed two sons thus ensuring a continuation of the royal line.Neither Dingane or King Tshaka his pedecessors had produced OFFSPRING.
King Cetshwayo later died on the 8th of Feb 1884.An Autopsy was refused to be carried,However an abortive attempt was made against him by Mnyamana kangqengele,induna of the Buthelezi and Cetshwayo,s ndunankulu.
Cetshwayo's body was refered to Enkandla forest for burial,and the war between his USUTHU and Zibhebhu continued.Cetshwayo's son Dingizulu was heir to the throne,was proclaimed King of the Zulu,s on the 20th of April 1884.

"Lisale kahle Maqhawe amakhulu Ka Mthwakazi ngiyalihlonipha ngokukhalipha kwenu okungaka."
----------------------

[ 25.09.2003, 19:31: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mfowethu I have enjoyed every moment of our discussion.

You have given me much food for thought.

May I offer one small morsel in return.

King Shaka died violently.

Kingkiller Dingane died violently.

King Cetshwayo died violently.

Neither Mashobane's son or his son died violently though many were prepared to die violently in their defence.

I think this means something but I am not sure what it means.

.Thanks for a good debate.

Marcus my Brother
I think what you have raised means that this son of Mashobana did a wise move by distancing himself from the Ngqwele Tshaka,if not he might have died violently himself,does it sink now.?
All in all uyangibulala imbambo the way you describe Dingane.

That's a good interpretation T.

But another interpretation Mfowethu is that when Dingane udinge igazi yeNkosi yeZulu uvule indlela ekufeni yeziNkosi zinthathu.

Was Mthwakazi not fortunate that the rule of law was upheld when King Lobengula was chosen by the Regent and Council and then defended by the nation against those who prefered not to abide by national consensus?

Imagine if might had disastrously been allowed to overcome right?

[ 26.09.2003, 11:37: Message edited by: Marcus ]

Bafowethu,
The fact that after such a heated debate, where amajaha omkhonto have been engaging and challenging each other on matters of such historical value is not only appreciated but it is also significant because of the educational effect it has upon visitors to our "ingxoxo" forum. The fact that people of Ndebele extraction(you are very much included Marcus)themselves are debating these issues and de-mystifying some fallacies is indeed encouraging. So as a parting short, bafowethu let's guard our history jelously like every other nation out there. Look at the Jewish community. Look at the Japanese. Thus, in conclusion,after crossing swords and clinging on each other's throats, we all agree that our Royal Highness King Lobengula did not "sell" the country (which he loved so much), whose father built ngesisa, ngokubekezela,ngobungwanzi obesabekayo,nge zithukuthuku zabobabamkhulu langothando olumangalisayo. King Lobengula unlike "Mbuya Nehanda" fought a valiant battle to the bitter end , and historians of different ideological stripes are all fascinated by his legendary declaration at that difficult period of savegery by the Europeans: King Lobengula declared "Now the time has come to fight the white invaders" This African Prince bafowethu was a warrior "par excellence" . Just early this year I read an article where one British educational commentator was complaining that their kids are still taught the history of someone African King called Lobengula. There you have it. Think of Cecil John Rhodes, he refused to be buried in Westminster Abbey, but chose to be buried in Matopos next to who? Certainly not "Sekuru Kaguvi" but right there next to Lobengula's father King Mzilikazi. Bafowethu we have a rich history lt's cherish it and guard it jelously.

Many thanks for that inclusion Mnewethu.

It is true to say that King Lobengula was truly everything you say.

He was the repository of national honour and the personification of the sovereignty of a nation and his name will live long after critics who try in a self-defeating way to aggrandize themselves at his expense and so at the expense of an entire nation have deservedly been forgotten.

[ 26.09.2003, 12:26: Message edited by: Marcus ]