In an innovative move the self defined doyen of independent internet sites has added a photo gallery to his Zimbabwe news site.

The photo gallery is supposedly a protest against the participation by people from our region in pornographic and promiscuous sexual pactises.

The form of the protest, surprisingly, is to show pictures of a number of people indulging in these practises.

Apparently this is an exercise in intellectual honesty and moralism.

I wonder if you could outline whether Inkundla intends to start employing these innovations or whether you believe your site can attract sufficient attention from the intellectual community without having to grub in the gutter like the Gadarene swine?

Marcus, the answer to the question is an emphatic NO!!

The question to the answer is "are you worried about something?"

LOL!

No, Black Eagle, I am not worried at all - just relieved that unlike some whose names I won't mention you are not prepared to let your high standards slip!

Marcus I happen to be the editor of the site you write about. To describe me as a "Gadarene swine" with the full backing of this site's editors is definitely below the belt.
For your own information, we don't need naked people to be relevant. We are already.

Mdu,
I am neither Marcus nor Administrator, but I would have thought that if you really are who you say you are then you would neither have been moved nor worried about such minor "insult". I am sure because of the nature of your work worse things have been said and done to you.

Its alright for you journos to dish it out but you obviously cannot a handle a little bit of the taste of your own medicine!

Mdu I am glad you have logged on to defend the regrettable decision to show those gratuitous pics.

May I say that the criticisms I have expressed are my own and I don't think Ngqungqulu can be associated with the substantive detail of what I have written.

I can assure you that if I had access to a forum on your site I would have expressed my opinions there.

As it is I have posted satirical comments about these pics here and for your information at the Shumba forum.


I think you'll agree that Ngqungqulu's witty response may have indicated a determination not to follow your site's example: at the same time he indicated an amused detachment from my position.

As Cde Potshoza has written, please do bear in mind that in the public forum comments will be made that may sting or bruise momentarily without any intention to cause permanent injury.

I have described you as a credible journalist with a track record, I hope and expect, to success, in response to criticism from Zanu PF critics.

If you accept the sincerity of my criticisms please accept the sincerity of the compliments too.

But I stand by those criticisms.

Running the pics was salaciousness posing as righteousness; lewdness posing as moralism; crudeness posing as refinement; rudeness posing as good manners.

I think it suggest English tabloid influence and I don't believe this is an expression of respect to Zimbabwean women in general.

I don't think you should exploit your power as a website owner by abusing these young women and threatening to expose them shows you in a bad light as a bully.

I hope we are not going to see a "Page Three" type appearance at your site every day.

I reiterate that I have much respect for your sense of enterprise Mdu.

I am happy to continue the exchange but please do not feel it necessary to draw the host of this site into further discussions.

[ 12.09.2003, 17:03: Message edited by: Marcus ]

you are a man of fine words, probably more intelligent and eloquent than myself. I think you have heard what i had to say on this matter and you have been heard. I hope we will respect those two distinct zones of thought without resorting to abuse, posing as criticism....

Potshoza
Journos are generally restricted from being personal and abusive in their work, all I object to is abuse Potshoza. there is a wide chasm between criticism and abuse.

Mdu let's hope we have heard each other.

The respect for the good things you have done remains and will remain but the use of the abusive photographs also remains a matter of criticism to me.

As to reference to the Gadarene swine, well the use of piggishness on this site was pioneered not by me but by one Jazerindizayo.

But I think you might already know that.

In any event, today we hear the news of the resignation of a brave and principled journo Francis Mdlongwa.

One hopes up and coming journalists will prefer to follow his elevated standards than those of English tabloid tattlers.

Marcus, Marcus - The name as you well know is Jazelindizayo and not as you choose to spell it. I suspect that it is yet another of ploy to get me onto this august forum. In as much as I would like to fill the forum with my thoughts and engage in social intercoure with all and sundry on this here forum, you will be displeased ( or may be pleased - take your pick!!) to know that urgent and pressing professional commitments prevent me from doing so.

In any case it would appear that you are holding the fort well and if I might ask how goes the World record attempt at the Shumba forum- are you back to your prodigious output???

Having said that there is very little to say about the pornographic pictures on the newzim website. Correct me if I am wrong didn't the pornographic photos appear next to a story about the exploitation of Zim women by Asian men in the UK. Yet none of the men in the photos is Asian! What then was the relationship between the photos and the story of the women? Secondly the story itself was about Zim women becoming unwitting stars in pornographic photos and media - yet when one looks at the photos it is obvious that the participants posed for those photos. Again bringing into question the relevance of the photos to the story.

Sorry Jaz - but it did work.

Again.

Jazelindizayo

I find it sad that I have to be providing defence on this website for stories published on another site.
The truth is that the story was two-fold. There were the Asian porn merchants and the general looseness of Zim women who willingly go into the porn industry.
That said, may I also remind you gentlemen that we did seek to hide the hardcore stuff and by the way, under no circumstances would we have published pictures of people who were secretly filmed.
I hope that does it Jazelindizayo

Marcus

As for you my brother, I am still wounded by the reference to me as "self defined doyen....."

Mfowethu Mdu I have to admit that I borrowed a reference from elsewhere on your website which seemed to echo certain Jazelindayo-isms which were previously applied to me and it maybe this use of words to which you are now referring.

So you see when you described me as a man of fine words and eloquence superior to your own I had indeed borrowed my eloquence from you and was opetrating under intellectually false pretences.

You know that, particularly at a time of crisis for anybody interested in the free expression of ideas, I would not wish to impugn your newsgathering or, indeed, at a personal level, hurt your feelings, for all the tea in China.

I would like to retract not just any word but any shadow of any word that was or tended to be abusive.

In addition having visited your site today I believe you have contextualised your campaign on porn and Zimbabweans in an admirable fashion whatever a gentleman like Jaz might say.

Please be certain that in losing a critic you have gained a friend.

Marcus

it is not one of my talents to turn critics into friends but everything has a start. meanwhile who gave you that English name Comrade?

Mdu
It is indeed unfortunate that you have to use this website to defend what is published on another. Perhaps this could be due to the fact that the other website (yours) does not offer readers an opportunity to expresss their thoughts and views without said thoughts and views first undergoing surgical excission under the knife wielded by the editor. I am aware of your sensitivity to "abuse", I therefore trust that you will not take my small observation as such.

You will forgive me for missing the second part of the story- the one concerning "the general looseness of Zim women who willingly go into the porn industry" The phrase "general looseness" is quite telling as it suggests that there is an element of someone climbing on a high chair and subsequently proceeding to mete out moral judgements on the actions of adult individuals who are not breaking any laws. The same sanctimonius holier than thou perspective also permeates the invitation to name and "shame" the individuals in the photos. I have never been a journalist nor do I aspire to be one, but I have always thought that journalism was about reporting the news and not casting vague moral judgements on the actions of the individuals being reported. Having said that I have no doubt in my mind that you site is and shall remain, as self proclaimed, "The best Zimbabwe news site on the world wide web"

[ 17.09.2003, 11:52: Message edited by: Jazelindizayo ]

Mdu without wanting to give away too much biographical information this was a name given to me among others by certain elder relatives before I acquired the power of words.

Perhaps I should ask the contributors of Inkundla to select a name for me from the rich store of Nguni onomastic lore.

But I would prefer if possible that any suggestions exclude reference to such things as ngulube, ngquza, nqundu and any other unflattering phenomenon.

In addition I would ask that suggestions come from living people and not via a tshwikilo from any spirit, however exalted that spirit might be or that tshwikilo might consider himself to be.

PS Jaz well said on the last lines of your last post.

Gentlemen, I have been following your discussion with great interest and feel that I can now contribute.

First of all, Mdu should welcome any discussion about his news site anywhere it takes place. The feedback he will get here and elsewhere might indeed inform future editorial policy, which will accurately reflect the interests of his readers.

Second, issues of taste or decency have always dogged journalism and will continue to do so. How far a publication pushes journalistic boundaries depends, amongst other factors, on the regulatory framework that publication operates in.

These issues came into prominence during the recent Iraq war, when the US objected to the publication of its dead/captured soldiers by Arab newspapers. Should pictures of Africans killing each other in cold blood be published by CNN and others? Should AIDS sufferes in remote African villages be pictured, often without their consent in Western newspapers? Should Mdu have published those pictures and therefore be seen as 'de-basing' his news site? He took the risk. Whether that risk paid off or not, only we can only surmise.

With the recent closure of the Daily News, we surely welcome every new source of 'independent' information. I, therefore, wish Mdu well in his endeavor.

Ngiyabonga.

I cannot add to or take away from that summation of ethical issues Mpho suffice to say that I understand the controversial photographs attracted a record number of hits to the site.

Therefore it seems my views do not correspond with popular sentiment.

This makes me feel quite elderly and out of touch.

I would like to make one more point if we still have Mdu's attention.

As Jazelindayo has mentioned I too believe that if www.newzimbabwe.com had a forum such as this Inkundla ingxoxo room I am certain that readership could only multiply.

At the moment the Daily News site Shumba continues to function while the newspaper is under the paw of the Beast of Harare, but for how much longer?

One appreciates that the Inkundla forum has a specific target constituency who may not necessarily welcome all and any comers and therefore one makes the suggestion that newzimbabwe could indeed attract a wide cross section of users if it offered such a facility.

Gentlemen

I will try to address you all. Thanks Mpho for your, eh, constructive criticism. Marcus is a reasonable man and Jazelindizayo comes across as a very calculating, intelligent person.
in fact everyone who has contributed to this thread has been very good - although Marcus' excitement when someone mentioned the "best website on the world wide web" phrase can be interpreted (by me) as, eh, abuse!!! ha ha ha!
so people want live forums? they will get them. soon.

That's very good news and you can be certain of support from an eclectic mix of people.

Marcus - You did ask for a Nguni sounding name to correct as it were errors committed "by certain elder relatives". May I suggest the name of Sindane ? I trust that you will be happy with this moniker

let's call Marcus Vengesayi

Being a regular contributor to Mdu's website I can not sit idly and watch Marcus tearing him apart in the name of constructive criticism. What has escaped Marcus is the fact that the story has had a very positive and significant influence on many young ladies at home who aspire to "go overseas". They have seen that it's not all milk and honey out there, but rather , it's all about toil and sweat.The story has unwittingly or wittingly conscientised vulnerable people who are likely to fall victim to these monsters

Lobengula

Lobengula

Much obliged.

Lobengula
You state with some authority, though it is not exactly clear where this authority derives from , that "a very positive and significant influence on many young ladies". On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you conducted a secret study on the impact of the story that enables you make this bold (and seemingly unsubstantiated) allegation?
Secondly, precisely how many young women, as a percentage of all young Zimbabwean women abroad, have been taken advantage of by the alleged Asian porn gangs? Are the women who have been taken advantage of in the marjority or in the minority? An educated guess would suggest that a small minority have fallen foul to these alleged porn merchants.

Thirdly, while I am not a spokesman for Marcus, I think it is fair to say that Marcus questioned not the validity of the Asian porn merchants story, but rather the wisdom of the publication of the pornographic pictures on the new zim website and the subsequent furore over the naming an "shaming" of the participants in the photos.

LOL!

Mdu I do yield to your extensive knowledge of Nguni names but if I am to be known as Vengesayi does it mean I am considered to be brain dead?

And Jaz as ever your smart missiles are precisely on target but if I am to be known as Sindane will you be happy to have me as a half-brother, my half-cousin?

I should never have placed this rod in your hands.



Sibalukhulu, as I am a stranger to Nguni royal etiquette, could you please convey my respects to the person or medium who is utilizing the name of His Royal Highness and kindly express my humble and sincere satisfaction that in raising this issue here I have not only been able to express my views but elicit those of others and so in my own small way assist in amplifying the completely highminded manner in which Mdu's site has been highlighting the dangers in store for young women in our society?

May I also say I hope no misguided young lady chooses to misinterprete the photographs cited as a suggested shortcut to fame and wealth in our decadent times.

Jazi
While i generally respect your many views that i have read in the past, today i would like to cross swords with you. Firstly let me take you out of your misery: there is no such nonsense as "an educated guess" , much as there is no corresponding illiterate guess. A guess is a guess.Period. Secondly you try to exonerate yourself by declaring unashamedly that you are "not a spokesman for Marcus". In fact you sound far much more than a spokesman, a public relations officer could be closer to what you sound to be.
As for the impact of the story and the positive results it has generated , just look at the wide coverage it has received and even some schools have used it to preach the gospel of safe sex to their students. You may scream and say where do i get the facts , every weekend i travel to Zm and i serve in the governing committee of my former school . We encourage students to use reliable websites like yours truly(Inkundla.net) and you guessed it, newzimbabwe.com to research particularly subjects which have been distorted for political expedience eg History, Economics.

So the bottomline bra-Jazi is that whether you like it or not the story has had a positive spin-off. Remember Jazi, sex is no longer a taboo subject any more my brother. Nowadays teachers and parents spend endless hours explaining the dangers of sexual activity. You must move away from being an arm-chair critic and get to the toiling masses and see what the twin evils of AIDS & HIV has done particularly the poor and uninformed.

Jaz may I be the first congratulate you on your appointment as my Public Relations agent which has been given a posthumous Royal Seal of Approval?

I am sure you will be as surprised as, and no more and no less delighted than, I was when I first heard the news.

As my first instruction to you in your new and demanding position please would you be so kind as to find me a suitably dignified Nguni internet user name?

How about, on a black and white theme, Dube or Inungu?

Or something beginning with Ma- like Mahlohlelixoxo but shorter.

But please, no Royal names.

I don't wish to be haunted.

hey bakithi sicela lathi lisicacele phela ukuthi kuhamba njani lapho ,kanti uMdu ubhalela iphi iwebsite and futhi izithoimbe lezo zabantwana bakithi singazibona kuphi ,lathi mhlawumbe silezihlobo esezisemdlalweni onalowo ohluphileyo,linganceda shuwa bakithi

Bakithi ngiyilandele inkulumo yenu sibili imnandi okwamagama,kodwa into engiphicayo kancane yikubana yindaba wena Baba Jazi lo Marcus lingavumelani layo into yokuba uma umuntu eyintatheli zindaba angavunyelwa ukwenza lokhu okwenziwa ngumfowethu uMdu.Mina ngibona kuyinto encomekayo kakhulu mfokaMathuthu ukubana iqiniso lifike ebantwinililokhu liliqiniso hatshi okwaboJonathan Moyo.Uma odade bengaziphathanga kumele umphakathi wazi, ngoba labasakhulayo bazalandela imikhuba yabodadewabo eluhlazo,yikho ngithi mfo Mdu utshaye inyoka esiswini sengathi ungayingqikila ekhanda futhi.

Thrower and Rev Lovejoy

Thanks for the robust defence of the views of newzimbabwe.com. We are generally well-meaning people who have no intention to use other people to further our interests as the two gentleman have been suggesting.
I leave you with this quote from a story that we did about Jonathan Moyo, the context is spot-on:
“Peculiar people whose life is either behind them, or have no right to have one ahead of them, preach moralism in the name of our revolution,” Goebbels once said. “This moralism often has nothing in common with true morality. They proclaim ethical laws that might be appropriate for a nunnery, but are entirely out of place in a modern cultural state.”

Goebbels had been piqued by a “moral knight” who was campaigning against a soap advert showing a girl holding the soap to her private parts.
“The moral knight who unfortunately had the right to determine the fate of this poster forbade its distribution on the grounds that it offended the moral sensibilities of the population. What is moral about this? The immorality is in the person announcing the ban, who presumes that other people share his dirty fantasies!”

What is the true meaning of the Ndebele word,Ngqwele,answer,is a little coward who scares other innocent law abiding parent fearing boys by acts of bullying in most cases pysicologists have discoverd that they are children of single parents.By the way who calls others bobantukazana and others Ngqwele in this forumn what a pity!.The other thing Mdu,the difference between any other forumn and newzimbabwe.com is the same difference there is in reading the Bulawayo chronicle and The Daily news.That leaves you with the ansewr why some people defend ponography and prostitution,simple they were educated through that.REALITY STRAIGHTTALK khonphaaa Mdu.

was it really really necessary to post those pictures?? would your story have had a different impact had you not showed the pictures??? To me, that was very offensive and pornographic material which had no emergency reason to be there. The pictures were just good for the guys to drool over, but as a deterrent, i disagree. Those pictures might have actually aroused some sexual desires and achieved a completely different goal other than the one claimed by the author. If i want to discourage any one from engaging in sexual escapades, the last thing i'll show that person is pornographic material.

nobhutshuzwayo

i am intrigued to learn that those pictures made you feel the way you did. but i refer you to the Goebbels quote above. meanwhile Dynamos just lost 2-1 to Sporting Lions, I don't know what that does to you.

Mfowethu Mdu I am intrigued indeed by your reliance on no less a pervert and perverter of the truth than Goebbels to defend your use of dirty pictures.

I hope that you do not construct all your journalistic ethics on his pronouncements?

It was Goebbels who said

quote:

---

"A lie repeated
often enough becomes the truth."

---

and

quote:

---

"The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a 'Big Lie' than a small one, if it is repeated often enough."

---

Please Mdu.

Do not choose to believe and repeat the "truths" of a proud liar like Goebbels.

Either you will be seen as a liar, or a gullible fool who believes in lies.

I am not sure whether the reputation you will earn will assist the reputation of www.nudezimbabwe.com .

Mfowethu Thrower I appreciate the concerns you raise about the title "Ngqwele".

Mfowethu I was told that the word actually means a chief among cattle herds and that this title was once applied to Zulu Shaka himself!

As an unassuming man I was a bit concerned the title made too much of me.

Mfowethu it was polite of you to offer a less polite meaning and for pointing out as a fellow guest at Inkundla what a rude host we have!

Mfowethu on a point of clarification is there really such a thing as a child of a single parent?

Is there any man or woman alive today who was not conceived by a mother and a father?

Even the aforesaid Ngqwele Shaka had a mother and a father.

Mfowethu it may be that you are an expert on this important sociological issue by virtue of growing up without knowing the name of your father.

But I want to reassure you this does not mean you had no father and were one of "the children of a single parent".

This would have been a biological impossibility.

I am sure even your mother possibly knew the name of your father.

If she did not, may I apologize for raising a hurtful issue, but since you threw open an unexpected door I simply walked through it.

Marcus

I thought we were over with that matter but it appears you are a revisionist debater.
Joseph Goebbels lied just like everyone, including yourself. nothing unusual there.
and what is dirty about a picture? the dirt, as Goebbels said, is in the perverted mind of the 'moral knight' who in this case is Marcus.

Ah, Mdu, it was you who revised the debate by introducing your ethical authority of Goebbels and therefore you who rely on lies.

I wish you the best of luck at nudezimbabwe.

Mfowethu Marcus at least you give a clear example of someone who in life was refered to as Ngqwele,it is an illigetimate son of Senzangakhona named Tshaka who was raised by a single mother Nandi who was one of the Biggest "Mazakhela" in the history of Zulus,no wonder Tshaka because of his lack of discipline later in life died a painful death cause he had followed selfish,pettycoat advices from his mother to become a chief bully, Maybe he also defended ponorgraphy like yourself, no wonder he killed all those man whom he had asked to dance infront of naked women expected not to erect even at such close contact during the mourning of his mother.As i see you are a great admirer of Tshaka,let me bring this to your attention,he is the only king in zululand whose grave is not respected at all for your own information it is situated in some place where two main roads meet lapha okulezitolo zamandiya ethekwini,just to prove to you that it does not pay to be immoral because you affect your life your children's and even your History.Shame on you all defenders of immorality.Mdu i think start onother topic on Zimbabwean peadophiles I think a lot is hidden in here.

Thrower,
It is painful to note the extent of propaganda and its effects on gullible minds like Thrower's.
Not only have you fallen to naked disinformation churned by apartheid era historians who went on an offensive trivialising our history as black people but went further to trash our leaders like the Great Tshaka Zulu. For your own information, Tshaka was one of the greatest statesmen to walk this earth. If he was all that "cruel" as you would like to believe, how was he able to buid such a powerful nation as the kingdom of Zululand. How was he able to win loyalty from his armies and conquer the whole of Southern Africa through his nation building initiatives. In South Africa and indeed across Africa he is hailed as one of the greatest nation builders of the 19th Century. In South Africa, over the years there has been a national holiday in his honour known as the King Tshaka Day , it has since been renamed NationaL Heritage Day specifically to honour this larger than life warrior. Films have been made about him. Remember he is only one of a very few select of Africans to be named as the past Century's most influential personalities by Time Magazine, he is ranked far much higher than Nelson Mandela. As for your nonsensical wuffling about children who grow up under the care of a single parent, may I suggest that you urgently seek psychiatric help because that purely reflects the extent to which your schizophrenic desease has deteriorated. Alternatively you must consult a "which-doctor" in case it is already beyond conventional medical remedy.

Marcus for your own information Tshaka was the illegitimate son of Senzangakhona,brought up by his mother Nandi a Mazakhela who had bad influence on Tshaka's life, no wonder Tshaka died such a painfull life because through his selfishness he made himself a Ngqwele.for your own information iam not like you, my parents have been married for over 4 decades and i am proud of them because i have never heard them defend pornography ever since that makes me an enemy of immorality and bullies like you.have a nice day but don't end up a stripper.

Lobengula you sound like a man haunted by a spirit of cowards,"runaways",Tshaka was nothing if morality and stable mindness is concerned,no wonder Mzilikazi realised that and distanced himself from the Bully.If only you know History then you will know what i mean.Mandela never slaughterd his own,never abused men and women it is with utter disgust for you to write such rubbish making comparisons of Tshaka to Mandela.You sound like your name's sake who was by no means to be a King of the Ndebele if His Brother Nkulumane was't killed,infact Lobengula if it was today he was the class of Muzenda the late.Make your reseaches properly before untshuma.

Mfowethu Thrower may I complement the information supplied by Lobengula for your information regarding the son of Senzangakhona by pointing out that today, the 22nd September 2003, will witness the annual commemoration at KwaDukuza.

Each year it is attended by thousands of people who are proud of, and knowledgeable about, their heritage.

Two years ago among the Guests of Honour was the South African Vice President Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma together with Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi in the presence of iSilo samaZulu King Zwelithini Goodwill kaBhekuzulu.

I was fortunate enough to attend that gathering as an ordinary spectator.

Apart from this day of days the life of the Ngqwele is remembered in history, political science, literature and the consciousness of every Zulu woman or man, irrespective of political affiliation.

An imposing monument commemorates the life and untimely death of one who stands next to any Emperor or Soldier-Statesman in the hierarchy of this world's heroes.

On the 24 September 2003 the South African Government will be releasing a stamp and an official commemorative envelope to honour his memory and to honour the country that was honoured by such a King.

Let us hope we can look forward to the day when our heroes such as the Royal son of Mashobane and his Royal son will be commemorated with equal dignity and decorum.

Thank you mfowethu Thrower for helping me to think once more about greatness, pride and wisdom.

No more need be said.

[ 22.09.2003, 15:14: Message edited by: Marcus ]

Thrower,
Based on your reliance on distorted history and "facts" that have been massaged specifically to appeal to unsuspecting individuals like you, it will be correct for a reasonable person to conclude that you are a dull fellow.
Just to demonstrate the low level to which you have stooped, you could fall victim to the following evangelical statement: "blessed are the poor, for the kingdom of heaven is theirs". You could literally rely on this statement and resign from your work and spend valuable time in bed.

Thrower you are being true to the age-old adage that "idiocy feeds on ignorance". Not only do you spend bagfuls of hot air but you also demonstrate your brinkmanship through a massive heap of lies , distorted history and a total disdain for the historical facts. You insulate yourself from both logic and reason. You refuse to take a leap in imagination so that you could realise that this bull-dust which you parade as "facts" about our Kings is in fact rubbish which has been repeated over and over (to steal from Marcus, idon't want to steal from Goebbels) until the Throwers of this world fall victim to this falacy

Mntungwa!
Mbulaz'omnyama
Abathi bedl'umuntu,
Bebe bemyenga ngendaba.
Abadl'izimf'ezimbili,
Ikhambi laphuma lilinye.
Lobengula kaMzilikazi,
Mzilikazi kaMashobana
Shobana noGasa kaZikode,
Zikode kaMkhatshwa.
Mabaso owabas'entabeni,
Kwadliwa ilanga lishona
Bantungw'abancwaba!
Zindlovu ezibantu,
Zindlovu ezimacocombela.
Nina bakwaMawela,
Owawel'iZambezi ngezikhali.
Nina bakaNkomo zavul'inqaba

Zavul'inqaba ngezimpondo,
KwelaseNgome.
Nina enal'ukudl'umlenze
KwaBulawayo!
Mantungwa aluhlaza!
Mantungw'amahle!
Bantwana benkosi,
Nina bakwaNtokela!
Ndabezitha!
Maqhaw'amakhulu!

Marcus
I have to admit that I have so much respect not only for your intellectual prowess but also for your pride in our culture, our history our ubuntu and our common struggle as Ndebs. Today in you I see a proud Ndebele. You would recall others like Terence Ranger, Giovanni Arrighi who were PF-ZAPU intellectuals. We are proud of you gentlemen. You are part and parcel of the proud Ndebele Nation.
Keep it up.

On the issue of Ingqwele let me clarify a few distortions:
In the rural areas, where cattle herding is a favourite pastime for boys in their teen years,
they organise boxing tournaments among themselves with various boys squaring up against each other until a champion is found. The question is who becomes the champion? It is the boy who beats up everybody else on a toe-to-toe fight until the opponent surenders. Once he wins and no-one is prepared to square up against him, he is then declared an "Ingqwele". What are the benefits of being an ingqwele? This question is equivalent to saying what is the benefit of being a heavy weight champion of the world? The reigning "ngqwele " will reign until somebody challenges him. If he gets knocked out he relinquishes the "ingqwele" title and the new champion reigns. So you see it is a very democratic process which has a beneficiary effect of traing these guys preparing them for manhood. That is why Ndebele guys are known to be generally physically strong and fierce fighters.
"war-like" they say.

Zintandane zeSilo soHlanga, zizukulwane zamaqhawe:


Kade ngacina ukuvakashela khona lapha enkundleni yengqondo; laph'okugaywa khona ubuchopho! Kungasenani, bengithi lami kengigcizelele mayelana lembali yegama "ingqwele". Anginawo amazwi amaningi, ngizophuthuma ngamafishane ngisho engikwazi ngezingqwele zomdabu.

Mina ngokwazi kwami, ingqwele bekuvame ukuba ngumholi wabelusi, uma bechakisa izifuyo khona le emahlathini. Ngeqiniso, bekungumfana obethelisa kwezenqindi. Iningi labafana babeyesaba ingqwele. Kukanti abanye babeyihlonipha.Kusenjalo nje, ingqwele ibifundisa abafana labafanyana izinto eziningi njalo ezehlukene; ezifana nokuthambisa amajongosi, ukukleza inkomo, ukubaza intonga, ukugada inzomba, ukuthapha inyosi, ukugawula imbazwana, kumbe ukugebha ibhotshi kumbe imbongolwane, njalo njalo. Ngamafishane, inqwele bekungumhleli njalo umbalisi/umkhokheli. Abanye abafana babeyesaba ingqwele ikakhulu ngoba ibivame ukubaxega (ukubaqhubeza), ibafundisa ukushaya inqindi uqobo. Njalo ingqwele ibivame ukunqandisa abanye abafana izifuyo!

Mina ngokwami angingeke ngisho cha ukuthi ingqwele bekungumuntu omubi kumbe onocuku. Engikwazi kahle yikuthi kungasingqwele, abanye abafana bebezakhula bengamagwala, bededesa njengensane. Bheka, kwesinye isikhathi, ingqwele ibilakho ukulumisa umfana ngabolonyovu!! Abafana abalengqwele yoqobo bebehlakanipha masinyane.

Ngiyema, zininizenkosi.

Lobengula for my part I would not only like to offer you my respects for a masterful exposition of the lore relating to izingqwele history but I have certain sincere apologies to make that are directly and indirectly addressed to you too.

In the first place I would like to apologize to our colleague Thrower for the manner in which he insulted me because this resulted in my insulting him.

I should also apologize to our colleague's parents for as the saying goes "Inkunzi ibekwa ematholeni" and as he exposed his thought processes he embarrassed his parents without doubt, and all because I was foolish enough to debate with him.

This leads me to the closely related apology I offer to you for the way in which I introduced the subject of King Shaka because this led to our colleague expressing views which were a disgrace.

You have very lucidly explained why our colleague has suffered horrendous mental degradation through brainwashing under white supremacist historiography and again I am moved to apologize to him and to you for this as I am after all a white person.

When will the mental scars which have induced some people to hate themselves and their culture heal?

I apologize to you for the fact that as a proud man you were then obliged to correct our colleague.

Unfortunately he responded to correction as a skunk does to a thrown stone.

Lastly and not least of all I would like to apologize to you for failing to recognize the type of gentleman you are from the first post you made on this forum.

Mnumzane, I have become an aggressive and suspicious person through engaging too long with Mgaxabeism.

I thought you were too good to be true.

Good news travels swiftly however.

I am delighted to know you are indeed too good not to be true.

I certainly do hope that one day we will meet, here or there - or here and there.

There is no apology I can offer to newzimbabwe.com because as the aforegoing shows, I hold no special brief for Mdu who has mastered the argument as well as authority for developing stories.

His is patently an enterprise that will flourish, whatever I say, and attract widespread attention as it does so.

Uzokhula uzokhokhoba.

hey pple.pple.come on what has this world come to now,a man makes a point and everyone is on top of him like nobody 's business.Mdu, i believe you guys did a tremendous job on that story and i believe seeing how pple. really got into the story ,you achieved your goals as i see it of showing some pple,how things are really going down "emazweni" ,in that it will eventually discourage those involved in those unZimbabwean acts.iqiniso liqiniso ,if that's wat some pple.are doing it should not be a sin showing it to the world ,the only sinners i see here are the porn stars,don't kill the messenger please! keep up the good work guys and "tell it like it is" and shame to the porn stars !!

Whilst Marcus you apologise to me you suddenly insult me which leaves me wondering who is the dullest between us.As for this argument about Tshaka i will brief you with facts as i have the History that was lectured to me Straight by a zulu proffesor not from WHITES AS YOU PROCLAIM whilst i was engaged with one university in Durban,Keep your eyes open my brother .As for so called Lobengula you want to be the spokesman for Marcus,you have succeeded well in your new endevour,congratulations but please even for the sake of pride reality is reality who can be proud of cowards and sell outs,in Zapu we had Lookout Masukus and company even during the days of real men like Mncumbatha we had puppets like Lobengula who sold our birthrights to whites after sugar and a Horse what a fool.mARCUS THE INTELLECTUAL you seem to be the most brightest fellow here what do you say about the Greatness and statesmanship of Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi .

[ 25.09.2003, 20:04: Message edited by: thrower ]

Thrower
I am not going to waste my precious time correcting your Micky-Mouse grammatical errors that even a grade seven pupil should know: So in Durban you were "lectured straight by a zulu proffesor". Its not surprising that this "proffesor" misled you because indeed he was not a professor. This is exactly what we have been preaching to you that you have been misled by con-men "historians" pausing as Zulu Professors.You ask Marcus to boggle his mind on "Tshaka the compared to Mzilikazi". My brother i grew up in Tsholotsho during the Gukurahundi atrocities and i only went to school up to the mandatory Grade seven but i can still realise that you need to go back to grade 3 to learn your verbs , adjectives, pronouns and basic sentence construction. Let me take the initiatve: Say this after me " Benny and Betty are playing" "they are happy", "UThemba loAmkela abafana" etc etc. After this i will monitor your progress. Marcus please help me as well.
If you again still believe in the "history" that King Lobengula "sold" the country for "sugar" then heavens have mercy on you. Remember the Rudd concession.That was a complicated piece of legislation that was drawn in London by legal experts. Even today it would have required legal eagles to interprete. Look, Bra Thrower, the British used complicated pieces of legislation to hoodwink and colonise almost a third of the whole world and brought billions of people under their dominion, from India to Iraq, Australia,large parts of Africa (remember the Cape to Cairo dream),the West Indies ,Asia ,South America, Canada etc etc. If at this day and age you still believe that the only heroes were "Mbuya Nehanda", "Kaguvi" while King Lobengula sold out then i have nothing further to say except to say it's a challenge to abafowethu to correct you and others who hold such nonsensical idiological follies.

Mfowethu Thrower I think our colleague Lobengula has already shown you that you would be incorrect to assume that I have a better knowledge of history than some of our colleagues here.

Let us hope we can both learn from him and from Ndukuzibomvu whose distinguished use of SiNdebele shows how roses elegantly conceal thorns!

Mfowethu Thrower I cannot apologize to you for the previous apologies I have made to you because frankly your understanding of history and particularly the flatulent assertion you make about horses and sugar suggests to me you should return to Durban and ask the nutty professor who mistaught you so grievously to return whatever tuition fees you paid him.

Did you not know as our colleague Lobengula indicates that King Lobengula was fraudulently induced to sign the Rudd Concession?

Are you aware that after signing it his efforts to cancel the agreement by dispatching two of his senior advisers to the Cape, with the intention that they would then represent him to Queen Victoria in London, were subverted by Rhodes who was well aware of the dubious nature of the terms?

Are you aware that a number of the King’s advisers, including a London Missionary Society member, corruptly colluded with Rhodes’s delegates in the conclusion of the Concession?

I am afraid that when the dust has settled and history is written objectively and fairly Lobengula will be seen as a King who struggled against Imperialist forces which toppled Kings and Emperors across the planet with humanity, decency and principle.

He strove against forces which shifted continents, not just countries and he did so with honour.

He could have wiped out Rhodes’s representatives as the regicide Dingane, who you apparently prefer to honour over the King of Zulu Kings, did to Retief and others.

Do you know Dingane’s fate?

It was a fate predicted by King Shaka after the coward and his coconspirator had wounded him fatally.

Lobengula attempted to negotiate a middle path to save his Kingdom and his people with the Shakan prophecy and the example of Dingane in mind.

It was a noble, but doomed attempt, because of the nature of the historical forces aligned against him.

Who is remembered as the calculating schemer, Rhodes or Lobengula?

Who is remembered as a thief and who is remembered as a King in a tragic season?

When his Kingdom was invaded and he decamped northwards as his Royal City was put to flame there were a number of white people still in the City.

It was he who ordered that their lives should be protected.

A lesser man, a racist demagogue like people you and I know whose names do not deserve to be mentioned here, would have preferred to instil fear in the hearts of these whites and take their lives.

But Lobengula was a King.

Indeed he was a King and he does not deserve to be slandered on a site like this of all places.

Your comments reflect only on you.

As to King Mzilikazi and King Shaka.

Let me change the nature of your enquiry from “what does Marcus think of the two?” because that is not important, to “what did Shaka think of kaMashobane?”

Shaka the Ngqwele of iziNgqwele, later known by Dingiswayo as “Nodumehlezi”; who forged two hundred clans into a nation; who made a stabbing spear and great shield into the fighting weapons that changed the course of Southern and Central African history.

He respected Mzilikazi highly as a General and delegated to him an independent command. This tells us what Shaka thought.

When a dispute arose regarding certain cattle Shaka did not send a regiment to take the cattle and eliminate Mashobane’s son but he sent delegates to request them. This tells us what Shaka thought.

Finally where so many others who resisted Shaka bit dust, Mashobane’s son survived.

To travel a Great Trail, to forge tribes into a nation, to change the course of Southern and Central African history, to resist the Boers who defeated Dingane, and oblige them to sign a treaty which is the first legal instrument defining the sovereignty of our region of which I am aware.

He bequeathed survival as a legacy.

Mfowethu I understand why you have trapped yourself in a bitter denunciation of your own history and culture – it is ironically because to criticise Marcus you decided to demean the people and events that I value and respect.

Please – I have many faults, arrogance, hot temper, and impetuosity a few among them – attack me for the faults I have and not for the heroes I admire.

I am sure I am a bad chap – but I do have one virtue – an ability to respect what is respectable and admire what is admirable.

Marcus

I have to admit that you are a perfect Ndebele (as interpreted to refer to an one who subscribes to Ndebele culture,custom ,values ,history etc) gentleman. You remind me of King Mzilikazi's greatest friend uMtshede(Dr Robert Moffat), who Mzilikazi in his own words remarked that uMtshede healed him with his medicines when all his tradional healers had failed to heal him. He was also impressed with his medicines for wounds, particularly for wounded soldiers which contributed immensely to Mzilikazi's conquests in Central Africa. Kindly read PN Mnkandla's "Ilifa labo Baba" for a very good account of this in a coversation between Mncumbatha Khumalo (the man who crowned King Lobengula) and King Mzilikazi.

To be called an Ndebele gentleman by someone who is the epitome of an Ndebele gentleman is high praise indeed.

Lobengula I will keep my eyes open for Mr Mnkandla's book.

Actually as I write I have a copy of his work "Ulimi Lwethu" in front of me!

I do believe the friendship between the King and Moffat was an exemplary one in the sense that it does indeed set an example for men of honour in our own time.

Lobengula ungikhumbuza utitsha wami owayengifundisa,wayethi bafana nxa lingalaleli abanye sizacina sihlangana lani lithengisa amatamatisi endleleni eCity Hall,what a fool,he thought ubutitsha was the greatest achievement in life,he had no wisdon to identify the potential yomuntu othengisa amatamatisi ukuthi engaba ngusomabhizimusi.This teacher I met him six years down the line elokhu engutitsha,I offerd him a lift waginqa ngoba with his jaw-breakers wayelokhu ehamba ngenyawo.This shows ukuthi isikhiwa is not the gretest of the languages ndoda unless nxa wakholonayzwa i am sure vele lethayi awuyikhuphi lalamuhla.Whilst ngisakhuluma lawe let me remind you and Marcus that Tshaka was by no means greater than Cetshwayo,as much as you admire him there are those who don't,recently while I was in Durban,I was shocked to notice that Mugabe is a Hero of some,including Jacob Zuma you mentioned,why?,we all know.they may be wrong or they may be right,as much as me and you recognising Tshaka as a great ruler or a despot.Even if Mugabe killed may Ndebeles there are some Zulus who have no relations with the Ndebeles,simple, because the Ngunis were made uo of many tribes,If History could repeat itself Tshaka will be liable for War Crimes,including Hittler,AND Mugabe,but.... to some they are their Biggest Heroes.

[ 25.09.2003, 20:12: Message edited by: thrower ]

Lobengula for your own information amakeyboard skills angilawo so itete loku editor angilalo but uzame ukufaka ilogic kulokhu engikutshoyo,Richard Le Gallienne an English poet 1866-1947 once said,the cry of the little peoples goes up to God in vain,for the world is given over to the cruel sons of cain, I may not be the favourite of the webmaster or yours, but my brother there is a statue within me,you may despise me today but my brother i may offer you refuge one day,just like my former teacher,ngithi kuwe.There is nothing without a reason.ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT HISTORY IS MORE OR LESS BUNK.IT IS TRADITION,WE DONT WANT TRADITION,WE WANT TO LIVE IN THE PRESENT.And the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today.

[ 25.09.2003, 20:15: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mfowethu Thrower whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, all of us who are motivated to contribute at this site are in some sense connected to each other ngoba sonke siyazi ukuthi isiNtu sethu sithi umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu.

As such mfowethu ngiyakufisela okuhle kodwa and if there were no Thrower Marcus would be a lesser man.

Let me say three last things.

Firstly, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Without Shaka how would history have turned? Cetshwayo was the marked calf from the cattle kraal of the Shakan dynasty.

Secondly, if Shaka deserved to be a war criminal let us send Caesar, Napoleon, and many others including almost every English ruler from the past to The Hague.


Thirdly before you chew up and spit out the umbilical cord which connects you to your reality as an ingane yeNguni and so to the world, to history, and all that makes you human, consider this quote from that writer and teacher P. Ngobiwa Mnkandla:

"Phakathi kwezindimi zaseAfrika ulimi lwethu lolu lukhulu ngoba uluzwa uchapa uGwembe uluzwe uze uyenatha awoThukela."

Ngithi mina Ngqwele ufanele ukuziqhenya Mfowethu Majikijela!

You come from a great world and a big history mfanekhaya.

Don't belittle it.

Unfortunately too many others will be prepared to do this for you.

Mnumzane Marcus:

Uma ngikhumbula kahle nguwena okewasho ngaphambili ukuba inyoni yasemazulwini, kumbe inhlanzi yaselwandle, ithiywa ngekudlayo! Ngempela, yiqiniso phaqa lelo. Kusenjalo nje, kwenye inkathi inkulumo yakho sengathi iyangiphica, hleze kungenxa yokufiphala kwengqondo yami, angikwazi! Kungasenani, bengicela ungichasisele ngokucacile ukuba utshoni uma uthi wena amazwi ami afana namaluba afihle ameva, angikuzwa kahle nsizwa yakithi. Sengathi inkulumo yakho imumethe, angazi ntoni

Kengibuze kancane, uyasazi na isihlatshana okuthiwa yimbabazane?

Sala kahle.

Marcus my brother,I admit that we all stand at the shoulders of Giants and indeed i do not dispute that Tshaka is amongst one of them.But what I do not agree with was his abuse of his interlect,power and status while on his way to become what he is to date.My Giant in Zulu History is Cetshwayo who indeed through bravery humiliated the British and caused them permanent damage that even today if their descendants hear the mention of the word Zulu ,they have nightmares.Armed only with spears and knives,his men inflicted on the British the most crushing defeat that England has experienced at the hand of any dark race in morden times.In one skirmish he defeated and killed Prince Napoleon,heir to the French throne.It took England over one hundred million dollars and her best generals to cope with this African son of Zululand.Unlike Lobengula the King not the one from Inkundla ,he did not run away and disappear he flung his defiance at the white envoys"go back and tell the white men this and let them hear it well-myself and everyone of my men will die first.I give you to sunset to get out of my territory."In 1879 the British under Lord Chelmsford,invaded Zululand.fighting,spears to byonets,black against white not black on black,the Zulus met the British in Isandlwana in the first great battle perhaps the bloodiest and most dramatic war in African colonial History,The Zulu warriors through a disciplined democratic leader masssacred them, killing more british soldiers than those who had died in the entire battle of waterloo.A few days later ,King Cetshwayo defeated the British at Rorkes Drift,and laid siege to Etshowe.Though Cetshwayo was captured later in the battles that followed he was imprisoned for three years and later granted permission to plead his case before Queen Victoria.When he arrived in England he was accorded a reception such as few monarchs have ever recieved.The Zulus led by Cetshwayo,became fully recognised as a complex,fascinating civilization.though the death of over ten thousand zulu warriors had the aim of defending their independence against the British,their efforts ended in tradegy,they dealt the British their most shocking defeat,and Zulu resistance to the colonists won them unforgettable place in legend and History.
There is a Scottish Guy who wrote....."What a pity it is that I shall be beyond the bosphorus before the next tweed!But I yet hope to light my pipe with it in persia.
My northern friends have accused me,with justice,of personality towards their great litery anthropophagus,Jeffrey;but what else was to be done with him and his dirty pack,who feed by 'lying and slandering',and slake their thirst with 'evil speaking'?.And if it were not the Marcuses ,throwers would not be eligible,it seldom pays to be rude.It never pays to be only half -rude.

[ 24.09.2003, 12:46: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mtanenkosi Ndukuzibomvu

With almost any other contributor to this site I might try to respond as best as I can in SiNdebele but next to your poetic prose or prosodic poetry the best of efforts would seem as dirty water to fine wine.

So I will try to reply as best as I can and as best as I understood you.

I hope it will not surprise you to hear that it was not I who expressed a view regarding the proper domain of birds or fish.

Insofar as the saying is a scientific observation I suppose it is true as far as it goes.

But as a metaphor for the human condition I leave the birds to ornithologists and the fish to ichthyologists and proceed instead from the premise of the poet Alexander Pope that "The proper study of Mankind is Man."

What fascinates me is how when we think we are most different from each other then we are most alike.

Truly Pope calls Man "The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!"

I hope you will accept that as a person who relishes discursive displays of intellect as well as verbal skill when I speak of piercing intelligence which I refer to as thorns and a fine command of words which I refer to as roses only praise is intended.

One can only value and appreciate the qualities of eloquence and knowledge which you and our colleague Lobengula and most others bring to bear.

I don't intend to throw insults at anyone but I can only wish that every single contributor showed similar subtle judgement and linguistic skill.

So Mnu Ndukuzibomvu I hope I have grasped the nettle and provided a direct and sincere response.

I value nothing more from friend or acquaintance than to be taught and I do learn from you.

May our paths cross again.

Now from fine wine I turn to whine.

Thrower I am trying to respect you.

Please try to find it in your heart to find a way to help me to do so.

Yes, mfowethu, King Cetshwayo was all you say and more but as I seem to remember the way you jeered about the circumstances of the death of King Shaka would you care to comment about the disastrous results of the Anglo-Zulu War for KwaZulu and would you care to explain why if kaSenzangakhona's death (175 years ago today)was a comedy kaMpande's death should be seen as a tragedy?

with all due respect allow me to mindle with fareminded , elloquent ,intelectuals who by there contributions have taken me through a complete corse in my culture , history and history.
i can not find words which are equivalent to my gratitude to all of you who cntribute to this site ,ngesintu sikamthwakazi thina abakagodlawayo omnyama umahlabayithwale sithi lingadinwa qubekani mabutho kaLobengula .
lamuhla ngiyabona ukuthi bengingazi lutho,

special thanks
to marcus ,lobengula ,trower, ndukuebomvu

Sawubona njalo Mnumzane Marcus:

Ngizoqala ngokubonga impendulo yakho ecacile. Bheka, manje ngiyezwa laph'oqhamuka khona wena. Kuhle ukuthi sizwane kahle, ngoba phela uma abantu bengezwani, uyazi nawe ukuthi kuvame ukuchitheka igazi lendoda kumbe ubuchopho mpela!

Ngizothanda ukukushiya lalokh'ukudla kwengqondo: esiNtwini kuthiwa induku ibanjwa ngomzaca, cha ngesiduku. Kunjalo nje, kuthiwa inhlwa kayibanjwa ngekhanda. Ngethemba uyazi kahle wena ukuthi okulempondo akufihlwa emgodleni

Sala ngokuthula.

Mnu Ndukuzibomvu ngixolele, ngiphinde ngizame ukukhuluma iSiNdebele seNkosi.

Mtanenkosi ngilokhu ngikubonga, uma sengilezimpondo angisoze ngikuhlabe ngophondo.


Njengumfowethu Mahlaba Ayithwale ngijabula ukuthi singabantu abaphucukile, siyakwazi ukuxoxa, ukukhuluma, mhlawumbe ukuxabana, kodwa njalo siphinde sikhulume ukuze noma nini sihlangene.

Rev Lovejoy/Marcus

Marcus' summation that newzimbabwe.com will always 'flourish' was flattering. Rev Lovejoy's robust defence of our position makes us proud at newzimbabwe.com.
the debate has been intelligent, despite repeated attempts by Thrower to hurl spanners into the work of intellectuals. He is an intelligent man though, same as everyone who has contributed to this thread.
Thanks for the debate guys.

Mdu the site you have established at www.newzimbabwe.com will without question flourish indeed.

And deservedly so.

In my not-so-humble opinion the way you have reacted to provocative criticism from me with such a seasoned attitude has only augmented your reputation.

May I say again, without massacring a Royal language, that the tone and quality of the debate, the courtesy, the absence of real rancour, the sheer intelligence, has been an inspiration to me.

In particular the positivity of our colleagues Lobengula and Ndukuzibomvu makes me marvel again at human nature.

The UbuNdebele that was evident to me from early childhood is as alive here, in electronic form, as at any place at home.

You are true heirs and true survivors.

I know
you know
what
I mean.

May God continue to guide and protect each and every one of you and every other survivor at home.

Mdu,Rev Lovejoy,Ndukuzibomvu,Mahlaba Ayithwale and you my Brother Marcus you humble me nge sense of aproach yenu towards this constructive deb ate.To Mnumzane uLobengula I raise a question to you,"Do you know the MENSA ORGANISATION.?"Today there are more than 100 000 Mensas in 100 countries worldwide,next time you come across a Guy who writes with keyboard mistakes and a few grammatic errors he may be having an IQ which is higher than yours.
To my Great brothers lapha ku Nkundla who have given me the courage to throw those spanners at the intellectuals like what Mdu says,it gives me much laughter to realise that amongst you there are those who don't miss my intelligence.I do not write and hurl only but I read as well.What you write I read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted,nor to find talk and discourse,but to weigh and consider.Some writings are to be tasted,others to be read but not curiosly,and some few to be read wholly,and with diligence and attention.Some of your contributions also maybe read by deputy,and extracts made of them by others;but that would be only in the less important arguments and the meaner sort of Debate.Reading makes a full man;Conference a ready man;and writing an exact man;and therefore,if a man write little he had need have a great memmory;if he confer little he had need have a present wit;if he read little he had need have much cunning,to seem to know that he doth not.And its true,Histories make man wise;poets witty;the mathematicks,subtile;natural philosophy,deep;moral,grave;logic and rhetoric,able to contend.
My brother Marcus about Cetshwayo and Mpande,what they were was different to what Tshaka was that is a question I have long answered you.
History tells us that following Tshaka's assasination by Dingane,28 Sep. 1828, and Dingane's removal by Mpande in 1839-1840 the Zulu nation was fraught with uncertainty over the succession to the throne.
Mpande however had LEGITIMATE sons.Succession of the Zulu monarchy was based on the first born son of the great wife,However Cetshwayo was born to the Zulu Prince Mpande and his WIFE Ngqumbazi in 1826 at Mpande's HOMESTEAD embambongwenya,south east of Zululand.
Cetshwayo's name means the 'slandered one' possibly reffering to a rumour over his legitimacy spread by Dingane.Although Dingane had eliminated all his brothers,Mpande was alowed to live.He had producsed two sons thus ensuring a continuation of the royal line.Neither Dingane or King Tshaka his pedecessors had produced OFFSPRING.
King Cetshwayo later died on the 8th of Feb 1884.An Autopsy was refused to be carried,However an abortive attempt was made against him by Mnyamana kangqengele,induna of the Buthelezi and Cetshwayo,s ndunankulu.
Cetshwayo's body was refered to Enkandla forest for burial,and the war between his USUTHU and Zibhebhu continued.Cetshwayo's son Dingizulu was heir to the throne,was proclaimed King of the Zulu,s on the 20th of April 1884.

"Lisale kahle Maqhawe amakhulu Ka Mthwakazi ngiyalihlonipha ngokukhalipha kwenu okungaka."
----------------------

[ 25.09.2003, 19:31: Message edited by: thrower ]

Mfowethu I have enjoyed every moment of our discussion.

You have given me much food for thought.

May I offer one small morsel in return.

King Shaka died violently.

Kingkiller Dingane died violently.

King Cetshwayo died violently.

Neither Mashobane's son or his son died violently though many were prepared to die violently in their defence.

I think this means something but I am not sure what it means.

.Thanks for a good debate.

Marcus my Brother
I think what you have raised means that this son of Mashobana did a wise move by distancing himself from the Ngqwele Tshaka,if not he might have died violently himself,does it sink now.?
All in all uyangibulala imbambo the way you describe Dingane.

That's a good interpretation T.

But another interpretation Mfowethu is that when Dingane udinge igazi yeNkosi yeZulu uvule indlela ekufeni yeziNkosi zinthathu.

Was Mthwakazi not fortunate that the rule of law was upheld when King Lobengula was chosen by the Regent and Council and then defended by the nation against those who prefered not to abide by national consensus?

Imagine if might had disastrously been allowed to overcome right?

[ 26.09.2003, 11:37: Message edited by: Marcus ]

Bafowethu,
The fact that after such a heated debate, where amajaha omkhonto have been engaging and challenging each other on matters of such historical value is not only appreciated but it is also significant because of the educational effect it has upon visitors to our "ingxoxo" forum. The fact that people of Ndebele extraction(you are very much included Marcus)themselves are debating these issues and de-mystifying some fallacies is indeed encouraging. So as a parting short, bafowethu let's guard our history jelously like every other nation out there. Look at the Jewish community. Look at the Japanese. Thus, in conclusion,after crossing swords and clinging on each other's throats, we all agree that our Royal Highness King Lobengula did not "sell" the country (which he loved so much), whose father built ngesisa, ngokubekezela,ngobungwanzi obesabekayo,nge zithukuthuku zabobabamkhulu langothando olumangalisayo. King Lobengula unlike "Mbuya Nehanda" fought a valiant battle to the bitter end , and historians of different ideological stripes are all fascinated by his legendary declaration at that difficult period of savegery by the Europeans: King Lobengula declared "Now the time has come to fight the white invaders" This African Prince bafowethu was a warrior "par excellence" . Just early this year I read an article where one British educational commentator was complaining that their kids are still taught the history of someone African King called Lobengula. There you have it. Think of Cecil John Rhodes, he refused to be buried in Westminster Abbey, but chose to be buried in Matopos next to who? Certainly not "Sekuru Kaguvi" but right there next to Lobengula's father King Mzilikazi. Bafowethu we have a rich history lt's cherish it and guard it jelously.

Many thanks for that inclusion Mnewethu.

It is true to say that King Lobengula was truly everything you say.

He was the repository of national honour and the personification of the sovereignty of a nation and his name will live long after critics who try in a self-defeating way to aggrandize themselves at his expense and so at the expense of an entire nation have deservedly been forgotten.

[ 26.09.2003, 12:26: Message edited by: Marcus ]