The main objective of this topic bakwethu is for us to single out those characteristics of Jazi that are attributable to Enos Nkala the sell-out and how to deal with such people who are an impediment to the emancipation of our people from the jaws of Shona dominance.

The cancer is at home. People like Jazi are cancerous. We do not need them among us in what ever shape or form they exist. They exist for the Shona. They live to perpertuate Shona dominance and suffering of our people.

I know that Sell-out Jazi will cry foul when he reads this. But the fact of the matter is that he is a sell-out to the cause of Mthwakazi.period!

He can vigorously deny this but his actions are of a sell-out.

He goes to bed with the enemy..and his objective is never to see the emancipation of Mthwakazi under Shona dominance. His objective is to continue to perpetuate, cultivate and ensure the continued suffering of our people under Shona sbjugation and dominance.

Jazi's heart is an engine of betrayal of the cause of our people. Its walls have been fortified with sell-out tendencies by his Shona masters. It is now being used as a tool to further advance the Shona emperialistic grand plans whose aim is to destroy our people for good.

How we, as Ndebeles react to these sell-outs in our struggle to fight this cancerous evil is what will count.

The way we are going to deal with such puppets and sell-outs in our struggle to free our people will count so much if we are to win this struggle. One way or the other we will have to deal with them and it has to be soon before we face the enemy.

Like Enos Nkala's, sell-out Jazi's soul deserves hell. It should burn in the balls of fire in hell.

Mayihlome.

If you can dismiss such important documents whose plans have resulted in the massacre of thousands of our people..the number being put at more than 20 000, how can you stand up and try a to defend yourself against such accusations?

We have been following your ideas and opinions and indeed you have even gone further to deny that there is marginalisation of the Ndebeles and again dismissed this as 'conspiracy theories peddled by the Ndebeles'.

This denial of these real issues that affect our people on a daily basis in a country so called Zimbabwe marks you out as a sell-out.

You are a sell-out big time Jazi. Ungumthengisi, period.

You and Nkala are birds of the same further that flock together.

Your sell-out souls deserve to burn in hell.

Mayihlome.

The documents that you describe as important are only so in the eyes and minds of those whose minds do not allow them to look at a bigger and broader picture and thus enable to put things into perspective. The documents are not important- they are not even worth the paper that they are printed on for the following reason- in the light of Zimbabwe's imminent economic collapse what place do these documents hold? Is the economic collapse to be felt more keenly in Matabeleland than in Mashonaland? Unemployment is put at around 70% of the work force - is this figure any hiogher in Matebeleland than in Mashonaland. The percentager of people leaving below the poverty datum line is put at 80 - again is this figure any higher in Matebeland than in Mashonaland. What place then, do these supremacy documents hold in the current disintergration of the country?
So before you start bleating about sell outs and squealing about souls burning in hell I would suggest that you answer the above questions in the privacy of that dark corner that you call a mind. I know I would be asking for too much if I was to ask you to answer those questions in this forum.

A mind is only useful if it is open

I have been very saddened by your comments about the Grand Pan doc. My friend, if this is how dead we are in mind then the Zanu pf grand plan has indeed worked its full cause, then maybe you may be right, we should not consider it seriously but we should consider it legally. All the questions you have asked above ndoda, have a yes answer, but then i again i don't know how independent you are in thinking anymore, since Mugabe has victimised most of our people to even think that they deserve the attrocities perpetrated upon them. I have nothing much to say mfowethu, i just responded because i really felt sick to learn of such opinion from you. It's not a matter of me refusing an opposing view but the issue you have thrown to the dustbin does not even demand opposition. Please read those Grand Plan documents carefully and after you have read them at least three times, study them, and after you have studied them, analyse them and then see if they have any truth in them, if you can, hire legal advisors or lawyers to interprate the documents for you. As for me, i know that anyone seeking to know the truth about were that country comes from and is going has to read only those two documents, which, Zanu Pf and other serial criminals want us to believe, was drafted by the British. I would applause and vote for any white man who could write such truth about the realities of Zimbabwe.

Thank god we are not yet all dead and buried as is the ultimate goal of the plans by such notorius criminals as Zanu PF.

Its a shame when even the victims want to defend such abusers and rapists. Mass graves of over 20 000 women, children and men still exist in Matebeleland, scars of raped, maimed, tortured, deprived, millions displaced, marginilised and brainwashed victims still exist in such societies.

From 1999 to today, such perpetrators have killed no more than 500 women, children and men. Most of such later victims would have no problem being in that country if only such perpetrators could guarantee them the richies and comfort that they have afforded and enjoyed during the massacres and other war crimes, genocide and Crimes against humanity of the 1980s to present day in particularly Matebeleland.

I just had to respond to you Jazi.

Please don't be that ignorant. IT'S A SHAME AND IT'S REALLY PAINFULL IF YOU ARE FROM THE ABOVE TARGETED REGIONS.

I AM SORRY FOR YOU. BUT AGAIN YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE IN THIS NEED OF REHABILITATION AND COUNCILING TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH AND DEAL WITH IT FOR FURTHER PROGRESS.

I have not defended in any manner or form the abusers- I have spoken about the need to bring to book those that perpetrated the genocide in Matebeleland in this forum and others - including the DN forum and the now defunct Zimweb. I have spoken out against Robert Gabriel Mugabe, his Zanu-pf and the runaway gravy train that he has conducted. It is, therefore, irresponsible and appalling that you should jump to the conclusion that I am here to defend Robert Mugabe. You might call free speech but with free speech come a responsibility which, sadly, you have not demonstrated in your outburst. We are therefore left to wonder who the ignorant but arrogant, self-promoting one is.

You need to answer these questions first b4 we can discuss your mortality issues?

1. Do you accept that the Ndebeles have and continue to be oppressed by the Shonas?

2. If you do, in what form or shape has this oppression taken place?

3. Did Mat.land receive the same development as Mash.land during the 1980 disturbances?

4.Please single out the development projects that were undertaken by the Shona government during those years?

5. Were development projects stoped imn Mas.land as a result of those disturbances?

6. After the so called unity accord, give us Major developments that you have seen the government undertaking in our region?

7. Did the Shonas not vote this government up to the present day?

8. Can the collapse of the economy and the problems that are rampant today caused and initiated by the corrupt Shona regime be used by the sell-outs like you to OVERSHADOW the problems we Ndebeles have suffered for so long under Shona imperialism?

What you are doing is hiding under the banner of a collapsed economy initiated by a corrupt Shona regime, to advance your corrupt ideas about the fact that Ndebeles do not suffer more than the Shonas!

How can you ask for statistics in a country that even fails to produce the right population statistics for a city like Byo?

No one in Zimbabwe should have confidence in any statistics produced by this corrupt Shona government!

Will this tribalist gvt in any case be interested in a study that will reveal gross inequalities in mortality rates between Mat.land and Mashonaland as a result of its tribalist policies??

Do not be daft?

Now if we were to look at development projects in Mashonaland in comparison with Mat.land, would you say the number of projects undertaken in Mashonaland are equal to those undertaken in Mat.land?

Here we are looking at infrastructure like:

a)roads

b) schools...including science schools

c) clinics in rural areas

d) boreholes and taped water(in Mashonaland there are some villages that receive piped water)

e)Dams

You say you come from Nkayi, can you please furnish us with the development of the road that leads to Nkayi in comparison with roads in Mashonaland?

The state of roads in our region leaves a lot to be desired and this Shona government will always complain of lack of funds when it comes to development in our region!

The centre ground for this debate changes drammatically from the one you want to advance!

In any case if one were to carry a comprehensive study on mortality rates, I hypothesize that one will come out with a significant difference between Mat.land and Mashonaland.

This is provided this Shona government does not block such a study as it will expose the truth of the effects of its supremacy idealogy upon which the MaShona majority have benefitted in the past and present!

But as a pure sell-out you will have nothing to do with this.

Mayihlome!

Mr Jaz has gone out of his way to suggest on the Shumba forum that I and others are tribalist extremists for our efforts to point up the tribal dynamics which motivated Gukurahundi and the continuing marginalisation of Mat'land to this day.

Well, I stand by every word I have written on this forum or any other.

For that matter I stand by every word I have written in any public venue.

We all inhabit a world that is governed by laws of cause and effect.

Like Muzvanifundo Johno, Zanu functionaries such as Microscope (also known more accurately as Endoscope) and the late not so great mysteriously vanishing Gwembeni Jaz has explained that he too is a victim of Gukurahundi and that therefore he has a superior right to decide the future efforts of attempts to bring the killers to book.

Indeed it seems to me that insofar as Nkala now claims also to be a "victim" of Gukurahundi in a conceptual sense apparent only to him, he and Jaz have some similarity.

I wish I could believe that Jaz is determined to ensure that justice will follow.

I wish Jaz could recover from his amnesia sufficiently to tell us whether he can yet recall the nom de guerre he employed on the old Daily News forum.

Until such time as he can do so I am afraid I cannot understand how he can maintain that he was not Gwembs, apostle of genocide denial and what he lovingly referred to as the mutsetse yeropa.

How can he deny what he cannot remember?

Finally, I wish Jaz could find himself on the wavelength of other forum members.

How he can go from equating the Smith regime with the Nazis (as he did on the Daily News forum) to suggesting on this forum that an accomodation should have been reached with the forces of colonialism suggests to me a mind with more twists, turns, kinks, curves and curls than any snake I have yet encountered.

Who can seriously suggest that oppression under Smith should not have been resisted?

Clearly the only person who can do so is the type who says oppression under Mugabe should not be resisted.

And finally how Jaz can express himself to be satisfied with comments from individuals who express the view that the tribal dynamics of Gukurahundi should not be openly discussed lest they provoke further tribal dynamics is something difficult to understand indeed.

It seems to me that Jaz is not on any wavelength but shockwave. ;-)

True, there are many poor shona's; but that's because there are so fckn many of them it would be impossible to enrich every one of them. Think in the reverse, if ndebeles were the majority and shona's the minority (but still in power) don't you think it would be rare to see a poor shona? Ndoda, we ARE under suppression. There IS a plan to sabortage ndebele welfare, it has work and is still working? Just because the stupid fools that rule the country have poor economic skills (despite their dubious degrees) and have managed to plunge the country, including their own brothers into poverty, it does not mean ukuthi we have to overlook ndebele poverty or look at Matland and Mashland's woes with one eye. We are all in one country mfo, but there are different operating systems in place.

Anyway, hold on to your veiw. You've done well in defending it for so long it would be foolish to give up your fight now. Amazinglly you have not won anyone to your side except for one fellow I remember who took it upon himself to elect you chairman.

However when the Mthwakazi movement gathers momentum and moives mountains, I'd love to see your face then. Until then ndoda, keep to defending your veiws, and I hope your one-size-fits-all solution will be of help one day.

Mayihlome!

True, there are many poor shona's; but that's because there are so fckn many of them it would be impossible to enrich every one of them. Think in the reverse, if ndebeles were the majority and shona's the minority (but still in power) don't you think it would be rare to see a poor shona? Ndoda, we ARE under suppression. There IS a plan to sabortage ndebele welfare, it has work and is still working? Just because the stupid fools that rule the country have poor economic skills (despite their dubious degrees) and have managed to plunge the country, including their own brothers into poverty, it does not mean ukuthi we have to overlook ndebele poverty or look at Matland and Mashland's woes with one eye. We are all in one country mfo, but there are different operating systems in place.

Anyway, hold on to your veiw. You've done well in defending it for so long it would be foolish to give up your fight now. Amazinglly you have not won anyone to your side except for one fellow I remember who took it upon himself to elect you chairman.

However when the Mthwakazi movement gathers momentum and moives mountains, I'd love to see your face then. Until then ndoda, keep to defending your veiws, and I hope your one-size-fits-all solution will be of help one day.

Mayihlome!

I have said it before and will say it again - what inequalities exist between the Shona and Ndebele are exaggerated in this forum and others partly out of ignorance and partly out of a desire to push the secessionist agenda. The issue of inequalities is driven more by perception than the reality on the ground. The perception here is that Matebeleland lags behind in development while the development of other regions proceeds at great pace. The perception here is that the underdevelopment of Matebeleland partly due to some grand Shona masterplan. The reality is that there has been no meaningful development in any part of Zimbabwe over the past twenty three years. It is flabbergasting that people like you should be jumping up and down about the supremacy documents when you cannot even put into context the role of the documents in the present disintergration of Zimbabwe's economy.

Above I have written about perception and reality being strangers in some instances. Your perceptions of the postings that I have made on the Shumba forum and the reality of the meanings of those postings are a case in point.
1 I have NOT suggested that those that seek to point out the tribal dynamics of the Gukurahundi are extremists. All I have done is point out that the massacres were not carried out on behalf of the Shona with the blessing of all the Shona. One does not have to be Shona to hold that view - in as much as one does not have be German to suggest that Hitler's final solution was not carried out on behalf of the German people with their blessing.
There are extremits on both sides of the Matebeleland/Mashonaland issue - there are Shona people who think that the Gukurahundi was good news and the Ndebele people are inferior to Shona people, conversely there are Ndebele people who think that the Shona are inferior beings. Would you not classify those people who express those views as extremists? Those are the extremits that I was referring to -it is unfortunate that you chose to perceive otherwise. Perhaps it is your grounding in legal knowledge and legal understanding that causes you to have those misconceptions.

2 I can easily go from comparing Ian Douglas Smith's regime to the Nazis to suggesting that an accommodation could have been reached with the colonialists without any of the twists and kinks that your superior legal mind is suggesting. Any system of governance that abrogates the rights of individuals on the basis of their race or creed may be compared to the evil sytems that preceed it- thus the treatment of blacks and the abrogation of our rights by your white brothers and sisters can be compared with that of the jews and other minorities at the hands of the Nazis. We can compare the heinous abrogation of black people's rights under apartheid again by your fellow white brothers and sisters with Nazism. We can also compare the abrogation of the rights of the African Americans again by your fellow white brothers and sisters with that of the Jews by the Nazis. How did the African- Americans achieve recognition off their human rights - was it by taking up arms against the evil Nazi-like system or was it by what you describe as "accommodation" ?

"Who can seriously suggest that oppression under Smith should not have been resisted?"

Far from suggesting that Smith should not have been resisted, I was merely stating that perhaps an alternative form of resistance (alternative to armed resistance) should have been pursued that might have brought about a better Zimbabwe than the mess that we see today. Morever it is striking that you should choose to take my original comments on this issue out of context - the context in which I expressed those sentiments was one in which I was sugesting that there maybe an alternative solution to Matebeleland's ills and not just the idea of a breakway state.
Talking about resistance to Smith - what resistance did you, Marcus, or any members of you family or circle of friends did you take against Smith's heinous regime? I am quite interested in knowing the answer to this question if I am to take your white-liberal-I feel-your-pain ideas seriously.

As for the Gwembeni issue- I have told you before that I have never used the name Gwembeni in any forum. And this I say with a clear conscience. It is your prerogative if you choose to believe otherwise. I have no control over what you choose to believe or not.

I expected that you will duck the questions that I have put to you to answer.

You have not disapointed me that much in your latest corespondence. You have not answered a single question.

The question is: would people of the likes of Nkala own up to the truth?

The answer is no.

You last contribution really puts you in the sell-out profile yabo Nkala.

The similarities are difficult to ignore.

You are part and parcel of a Shona driven tribal conspiracy whose aim is to maintain tribal supremacy over the Ndebeles for a long time to come.

We reject your sell-out ideas outrightly and we reject you as a sell-out person.

Njalo nje siyezwa ukuthi ungumnumzana uGwembeni whose ideas about iGukurahundi are well known to most of us from the DN forum.

Uluvava lokubulalisa lokuncedisa ekuncindezeleni abantu bakithi.

Angithi abadala bathi yibo ubuthakathi lobu.

Mayihlome!

And what you say below fits the discription of the Shonas in relation to the Ndebeles:
---------------------------------------------
Any system of governance that abrogates the rights of individuals on the basis of their race or creed may be compared to the evil sytems that preceed it- thus the treatment of blacks and the abrogation of our rights by your white brothers and sisters can be compared with that of the jews and other minorities at the hands of the Nazis. We can compare the heinous abrogation of black people's rights under apartheid again by your fellow white brothers and sisters with Nazism. We can also compare the abrogation of the rights of the African Americans again by your fellow white brothers and sisters with that of the Jews by the Nazis.
-------------------------------------------

To us our perceived(in the African brotherhood concept) African Shona brothers and sisters have become true African and Zimbabwean Nazis.

Mugabe calls himself a black Hitler. Do you think he is telling a lie?

We have a right to self-determination under these circumstances and secesion is the answer to most of us.

The methods of achieving our goals will definately differ from those of the Black African Americans...theirs is not a bible for everyone to follow.

I hope one day when we make a real push for this you will remember that we told you so.

Mayihlome.

That perception has no grounding in reality. Mugabe behaves like a Nazi and by his own admission he says he is a black Hitler as you point out. By what leap of logic do you then equate the actions of one man - Robert Mugabe to the being representative of all the Shona people? That is like saying all the Germans are to blame for Hitler's final solution or all the white in pre-independent Zimbabwe are responsible for the abrogation of our rights as black people. Clearly that kind of thinking if we may call it that is deeply flawed.

In as muchas the African American methods are not the bible that everyone should follow, so to is the path of secession particularly since you have failed to show what advantages secession would bring to Matebeleland other than being ruled or misruled by a fellow Matebele. The path you are advocating has been tried, tested and proven to fail in more countries than you can shake a stick at. Thus far neither you or any of the contributors here have shown that it will not fail in Matebeleland.

I have not ducked a single question that you have asked. You asked me to provide you with figures that show the inequalities between the Shona and the Ndebele in terms of "development". This is a bit disingenious on your part because this was precisely the question that I have asked you and others in this forum to come up with the data to show the said inequalities!!! How you can then turn around and start jumping up and down about me failing to answer any of the questions that you posed is highly amusing to say the least.
If it was in my nature, I should be the one jumping up and down at your failure to answer even the most basic of questions - how does development take place in the absence of economic growth? , can place into the context the Shona documents that you were wetting yourself about last week in the current disintergration of Zimbabwe?

I really do not care what profiles you think I fit. If it pleases you to think that I am a sell out then so be it. If it also pleases you to assume that I am Gwembeni,even thought you have no shred of evidence to suggest otherwise then by all means feel free to do so. It really does not bother me one jot what a one or two morons in cyberspace think.

May I also thank you for describing me as a white liberal.

May I point out that I see no basis in reason why I should have to justify myself or my opinions or my family or their opinions to a chap like you.

But thanks very much for expressing this interest.

;-)

1 As a white person did you benefit from the abrogation of our (black people) rights?

2 Did you tacitly support Ian Douglas Smith's abrogation of our rights?

3 If you did not support Smith's regime, what did you do to show your disapproval?

It is your right to refuse to answer these questions to a "chap like me" in as much as it is your right to assume that I am Gwembeni. Whatever characteristics a "chap like me" might possess that cause you to assert you right to refuse to answer genuine questions, the refusal in itself tells its own story.

I think it is quite clear that you are in fact indulging the race hatred which characterizes some anuZ comrades and I am not surprised to see that you fall back on it as your weapon of last resort here.

It is indeed of a piece with your modus operandi as Gwembeni of old and I say this with a note of satsfied recognition.

Different name: same Gwembs.

I am inclined to refuse to take your enquiries seriously on the grounds that I still assert your approval or disapproval matters not a jot to me.

But in the interests of fairness (and after all as noted above you have told us that like Johno and the likes of Endoscope you too are a victim of Gukurahundi) let me reiterate what I have repeatedly said publicly and privately in the past:

I have made it very clear indeed that I did indeed benefit as a white child from a system of racial superiority in Smith's Rhodesia; I have made it very clear that my family bore certain consequences from attempts to resist Smith's segregationism through their commitment to social development of the majority of our countrymen; I was raised to believe that Smith's system was immoral and unsupportable and that at no time should it be tacitly or actively supported.

Gwembs I won't ask you about your past or about your and your families commitment to resisting Smith or Mkabi.

Your words will tell me one thing.

Your self-serving shifts in your style of argument will tell me quite another.

You have come to the cause of justice Gwembs, as an afterthought.

I can say that I have spent my entire adult life in that pursuit.

Because you happe to have a different melanin level to me please do not forget for a moment that I don't think that entitles you to judge or misjudge my life.

And please be sure that I know you from alpha to omega and back again as a chap with a nice line in rhetoric but a dirty heart underneath it.

You have resisted a Truth and Reconciliation process endorsed even by Tsvangirai.

What does that tell me about the sincerity of your commitment to real issues?

Good luck to you Gwembs.

I will reserve the right not to follow you down further twists and turns of empty rhetoric.

I have seen more than enough.

You ask Marcus this question below:

'3 If you did not support Smith's regime, what did you do to show your disapproval?'

Personally I think this is a just question.

Why cry foul when we ask Shonas what they did to show their disaproval of Mugabe's tribalist policies?

Did they not endorse his policies by voting him into power overwhelmingly for him in the 80's and early 90's?

So they overwhemingly endorsed his ethnic cleasing policies?

They are collectively guilty of this crime as an ethnic group.

Did the Shonas do anything to show their disaproval of Mugabe's ethnic cleansing policies? No they never did, but they approved them without shame.

How? By voting for him in great numbers time and again.

Did the majority whites at that time approve of Ian Smith's apartheid policies?

The answer is yes. They did vote for him overwhelmingly as whites to maintain the status quo then.

So should we only say that the only problem was Ian Smith and his party not the whites in general who were guilty of this crime?

The answer is no. Ian Smith, his party and the people he led on a racist front, who voted for him were all guilty of this crime.

Mugabe, his ZPF party and the Shona people he led on a tribalist front are equally guilty of ethnic cleansing Mugabe perpetrated on our people.

It is surprising that when you look at issues on a black vs white you change your argument stance and for once use the same arguments we use against the shona. However, you do not accept this when we use such arguments against the Shona.

Yikho ukuba ngumzenzisi of the highest order.

It is right for you to ask a white person what they did to show their disaproval of the Ian Smith's evil racist regime, but it is not right for us to ask the Shona what they did to show their disaproval of the Mugabe's evil tribalist and racist regime.

So in this instance are you an 'extremist' when you state facts as they are?

Your inconsistences in your ideas are there for all to see.

But then these are deliberate and are calculated at defending the Shonas at all costs for the crimes against humanity.

Like Taylor(not that I support him) we say:

God willing, the Ndebeles will be back.

Mayihlome!

You say:

' By what leap of logic do you then equate the actions of one man - Robert Mugabe to the being representative of all the Shona people? '

Your above statement leaves a lot to be desired. How can actions of one Man be responsible for the killing of over 20 000 Ndebele people?

With what logic and sanity do you arrive at such a conclusion?

Where did Mugabe get the power to be the commander and architect of such heinous crimes?

Kazange avuke uMgabe esenguMongameli and then wacabanga ukuthi kumele abulale amaNdebele enguye yedwa qobo lwakhe.

With reference to the questions I posed, not all of my questions are asking for statics. I would then challenge you to anwswer these that do not demand statistics: Here they are again:

---------------------------------------------

1. Do you accept that the Ndebeles have and continue to be oppressed by the Shonas?

2. If you do, in what form or shape has this oppression taken place?

3. Did Mat.land receive the same development as Mash.land during the 1980 disturbances?

4.Please single out the development projects that were undertaken by the Shona government during those years?

5. Were development projects stopped in Mas.land as a result of those disturbances?

6. After the so called unity accord, give us Major developments that you have seen the government undertake in our region?

7. Did the Shonas not vote this government up to the present day?

8. Can the collapse of the economy and the problems that are rampant today caused and initiated by the corrupt Shona regime be used by the sell-outs like you to OVERSHADOW the problems we Ndebeles have suffered for so long under Shona imperialism?

--------------------------------------------

Some of these questions challenge you to give examples rather than the statistics that you are so obsessed about but not willing to provide in your arguments.

I kindly wait for answers for the above questions mnumzana.

Mayihlome!

1 The period of the genocide took place from 1982 to 1987.

2 In that period there were elections in 1985.

3 In the period leading up to those elections, the only people who knew what that there was genocide taking place were those in Matebeleland. You will recall that there was a news blackout on Matebeleland in the media which at the time was totally and completely controlled by the government. Given this scenario, how then do you make that leap - that the Shona people voted for Zanu on the back the massacres in the elections of 1985?

3 The elections of 1985 were followed by those of 1990. The first elections after the 1987 unity accord. I have no recollection of the genocide being ever mentioned in the run up and in the aftermath of the elections. Moreover given that the ink had barely dried on said Unity accord it would have been a fool hardy person Shona or Ndebele to bring up the issue of the genocide. May I also remind you that in these elections the people of Matebeleland also voted in large numbers for Zanu-pf. Again where do you get the idea that people voted Zanu-pf because of their approval of the genocide?

3 The 1995 elections - again I have no recollection of anyone campaigning and seeking election on the back of the genocide in Matebeleland. Again, the people of Matebeleland voted in large numbers for Zanu-pf.

Now going by your convoluted logic voting for Zanu-pf equates to approval for the genocide - Are we to take it that the victims of the genocide approved of their own massacre? Incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4 The 2000 elections - the same applies for these electins as does the 1995 elections. Again I would also like to point out to you that while the MDC swept most of the seats in rural and urban Matebeleland, Gwanda (not sure whether South or North) and Beitbridge elected to for Zanu-pf.

Again going by your simplistic logic where a vote for Zanu-pf equates to approval for genocide does it mean that the residents of Gwanda voted in the manner in which they did because they approved of the genocide? You do not need me to remind you that Gwanda also faced the wrath of the Gukurahundi. Are you again saying that the victims of genocide approved of their own massacre? Incredible - as I said above do not even begin to think of quitting your day job as footballer.

The above session shows that your logic of equating a vote for Zanu-pf as a vote for genocide to be false. We now turn our attention to the the voting patterns in Mashonaland and again we will explode the myth that a vote for Zanu-pf in Mashonaland equates to a vote for genocide.

1 It has been established above that there was a news black out during the actual genocide. In the aftermath of the genocide to the present day there has not been a widespread dissemination of information concerning the genocide. Thus those in Mashonaland that claim that they had no knowledge of the genocide are in all probability and possibility telling the truth up to and including the 1990 elections

2 Post 1990 elections the knowledge of the genocide in Matebeleland has become more widespread. However much of this knowledge is anecdotal, the Robert Mugabe government has suppresed the distribution of a number of reports into the genocide including the CCJP report. Thus the full horror of what transpired in Matebeleland remains outside the public domain in much of Mashonaland. This is one of the reasons why I have started that as part of the construcative engagement efforts, that this report be made available to all and sundry particularly in Mashonaland.

3 None of the elections that have taken place have been conducted on a ticket in which the genocide was campaigning ground.

The above shows that your analysis (if we may call it that) of voting patterns is deeply and fatally flawed and bears no relation to reality or recognition of the influence of other factors.

As for your rant about my so called double standards- my advice to you would be that it is often not a good idea to jump in feet first, mouth blazing into issues and matters that you have no prior knowledge about. My discourse with Spitfire has been long and on-going (though, sadly, it seems to have come to an abrupt end on account of a few home and uncomfortable truths) - you would do well to acquaint yourself with the history and nature of this discourse. I will thus not bother you with what line of inquiry I was/am pursuing wiht Spitfire lest you end up with a monumental headache.

A mind is only useful if it open.

The suggestion that the Shona never knew about the massacres is a great lie of our age and time..nothing can be as convoluted as the suggestion you have put forward today and the mind that brings it out.

It is like telling us that the whites during Smith's regime did not know the policies that Smith was pursuing, yet they were voting for him time and again thereby endorsing his policies.

Are you telling us that the Smith regime did not have its own media that it had monopoly over? Did that media stop people knowing about the wrongs that were done to the blacks at that time?

How can over 20 000 innocent people be brutally murdered by a tribalist gvt in a tiny, small country as Zimbabwe without people knowing that such a horrible thing was happening?

All this news black out rubbish is a big smoke screen of avoiding the truth. People knew about these massacres.

Stop endulging yourself in cheap political thinking that do not link up with reality in Zimbabwean politics.

The vote from Matabeleland after 1987 should be analysed differently. Were our people voting for ZPF or were they voting for Unity?

Just that the tribalist fools of ZPF chose to maintain the name ZPF after unity does not equate to our people voting for ZPF.

Our people voted for peace. They voted for peace to be given a chance and for the rebuilding of their own lives. Did they get that peace? The answer is no.

They have never voted for ZPF. They voted for Zapu within ZPF. If our people had voted for ZPF, while Zapu was there contesting the elections, then I would agree with your theorised assertions that they voted for genocide. But this is far from the truth and too simplistic a view emanating from one who regards himself highly, yet he is not so high as he thinks of himself.

The vote from our peoples after the 1987 accord is not as simplistic as you want to assert it to be.

Above all this, you still have ducked the questions I put forward to you.

And you still have not answered me why you think it is rightful and just for you to ask a white person what they did to show their disaproval of the Ian Smith's evil racist regime, yet you view it as not right and just for us to ask the Shona what they did to show their disaproval of the Mugabe's evil tribalist and racist regime.

The inconsistences of your supposedly 'high flying mid' are out for all to see.

They only serve to illustrate that you are a man of no substance, though you think you are.

Mayihlome.

Spitfire, I do not know whether you will ever get a chance to read this, you mentioned in the other place that you will off line again - of to another spot of tree-hugging and saving the blue whale are we in the ilk of your fellow white (oops there goes that word that inspires race hate!!!) liberal friends are we?

Well Spitfire, it seems that our discourse is at an end on account of, as you would have it, a (terrible?) falling out over the lack of melanin in your skin but if you ask me the falling out is over some uncomfortable home truths. I have pursued the line of enquiry that sought to establish the resistance put up by you and yours to Ian Douglas' Smith' s illegitimate UDI regime to establish that the concept of tacit approval is a false one. You state in your fashion that you were brought up to realise and recognise that "that Smith's system was immoral and unsupportable and that at no time should it be tacitly or actively supported." You however fail to mention that for all the immorality of the regime it still did no stop you from enjoying the benefits of being white in pre- independent Zimbabwe - the exclusive group A schools and the exclusive hospitals and the exclusive sports clubs where the only black faces that were seen there were serving the drinks and cocktails.... But I digress. Back to the matter at hand. given your background and you lack of tacit approval for Smith, it is amazing that you should then speak of tacit approval by the Shona of the havoc wreacked by Mugabe in Matebeleland. It is a paradox that a man of you background and fine upbringing should then talk of tacit approval of the Shona for the perceived marginalisation of Matebeleland by Robert Gabriel Mugabe. By your own admission you were a beneficiary of a system that abrogated the rights of black people, and you rightly expect people to take your word that you did not approve of that system. However it is perplexing to note that you do not appear to want the same generosity of spirit that is accorded ( and that you deserve) to you to be extended to a people who have obviously not benefited from the oppression of Matebeleland real and perceived. You have been at pains to suggest that there is a brotherhood between the various tribes and peoples of Matebeleland but not between the peoples and tribes of Matebeleland and those of Mashonaland. The only route left to me to joly you out of your reverie and self imposed complacecy was to go down the route of your race- and to paint a picture of guilt by association which you have sought to establish as far as the Shona are concerned.

I have resisted the need for a TRC and will continue to question the need for one even if Tsvangirayi calls for one. Just for the record my opinions and ideas are not shaped by the utterances of Morgan Tsvangirayi or anyone else for that matter. Whatever sense or nonsense emanating from me comes from none other than my head. I will continue to question the need of a TRC since I do not see what benefits will accrue from having one. I also not that in the other place you have gone on about how such a TRC could go as far back as the time of British in Zimbabwe. Given that most of the British and Rhodesians high-tailed out of Zimbabwe even before the ink was dry on the Lancaster House agreement how do you propose to facilitate the collection of evidence from those that are no longer in Zimbabwe let alone those that have given the bucket a swift and hefty kick?

I was not aware that pointing out that someone is white was indulging in race hatred. I was not aware that pointing out that since the beginning of time black people have felt the jackboot of the abrogation of our rights in the small of our backs at the hands of white people was race hatred. I was not aware that pointing out that the history of black people is littered with looting, pillaging sodomisation of black people by the white man was race hate. I have always thought these things to be nothing but fact and incontrovertible truth.

I trust that you present bout of tree hugging will stand you in good stead on your assault on the Guinness Book of World Records in the other place.

A mind is only useful if it is open.

Thanks for explaining otherwise.

Please call me what you want.

Of course quite patently you are grasping at straws in revenge for your being unmasked as Gwembs the Great.

Gwembs, let me ask you this:

Since you and I both agree that I was benefited unfairly as a white child on the basis of my melanin deficiency, are you saying that I have no right now to call for social economic and political justice for Matebeleland which is after all the only home I have ever known?

Would it be better for me to compound my privileged upbringing by being a typical white man, ie, removing myself into isolation from all these hostile melanin rich types, and refusing to do the little that I can to try to redress the wrongs of history?

Should I leave natives to squabble among themselves in the belief that it would be better for my own self interest to keep quiet, to align myself with the interests of the majority rather than a suffering and unjustly marginalised minority?

Should I leave the wrongs of history under colonialism and under Mkabi to be dealt with only by yourself and other victims of Gukurahundi such as Moore and Nkala?

Should I in short accept the place of a second class citizen today?

As far as I am concerned the only citizens who are second class are those who, irrespective of melanin quotient, try to play their own agendas into national imperatives.

Gwembs, when talking about the Truth and Reconciliation process I have been urging please recall that there are various means of evidence archival which ensure that there are plenty of ways to ensure that histories are heard and grievances dealth with in respect to the colonial era and in respect to Gukurahundi.

I understand it suits your purpose to obstruct the process in every way you can.

But as far as I am concerned principle is principle and if it is to see justice for the present justice must come for the past too.

But I don't think you really understand principle.

Now let me wait for your further windblown response.

May I just say your thoughts are as fragrant and substantial as a dog's farts.

I will be off shortly to hug whales, save trees, shock Chinua Achebe by my unseemly behaviour at funerals etc etc.

If I may misquote Taylor (I mean Charles) though: "I have not accepted this role as the sacrificial lamb ... I am not the whipping boy."

You now state that the Shona people knew of the massacres - on what grounds does that dark crevice that passes for a mind lurch to that conclusion. On what basis- surely not on the basis that if white people knew about black oppression then the Shona surely knew about the genocide in Matebeleland. Remember in my earlier response I spoke to you about seeing the world in black and white and your tendency to apply 1 + 1 = 2 type off logic - this is a case in point. The fact of the matter is that some Shona people knew and others (the marjority) did not but in your black and white world all the Shona people knew. In your black and white world a vote for Zanu-pf equates to a vote for genocide. This is patently not true as I have pointed out to you in my earlier post. Again you chose to duck the examples of Gwanda in the elections of 2000. I will ask again, if a vote for Zanu-Pf is a vote for genocide, do the people in Gwanda approve of their own massacre? I may not be a man of substance of in possession of a "'high flying mid'" but I sure am not as puerile as your ill-defined, illconceived and ill-advised flawed analysis of voting patterns in Zimbabwe.

Until you get a brain or post something of substance this is the last time I will waste my time responding to your childish nonsense. You can read whatever you want into this but I will not give chase to lizards when crocodiles are against me.

A mind is only useful if it is open - in you case Jah Dingani first get a mind!!

But as you rightly say my objections count for diddly-squat. Good luck with the hugging of trees not whales and your other white liberal pursuits.

A mind is only useful if it is open.

It shows how much real affection and respect you have for the place.

I have never heard an Nkayi man set out to demean his own home region in such a manner before.

And it is interesting too that you interprete my calls for justice and reconciliation as an attempt to "play off" people against each other.

Once again your words leak out a subliminal message about your real intentions.

I will continue to hug whales and save trees if it is all the same to you.

So now we have progressed from legal eagle to psychoanalysis - what with all this talk of subliminal messages and what what? Remember the story of master race, master understander and master problem solver??

I have not insulted my TTL as you would like to believe. Indeed i have not insulted anyone. I merely asked the question that if a man is born in a pig sty does that make him a pig or if you do not like that allegory, if a man is born in horse stable does that make him a horse?
Think about it before you jet of a tree hugging session.

A mind is only useful if it is open.

Who is trying to dehumanize who?

Even though I think you are not Ndebele I have not tried to use that as a basis for attacking you.

And don't try to pretend that calling a place a pigsty is not an insult and a transparent one at that.

Gwembs if you cannot do better than this can I suggest we wind up the argument?

You are not succeeding in deconstructing my argument.

But you are succeeding in boring me.

It is unfortunate that you should choose to believe that I am playing the race card to beat down any arguments that you make. I insist that I have merely pointed out a few home truths. If I have over stepped the bounds of decency in that respect and you find my posts nothing more than vitriolic abuse, then you have my humblest apologies. When all is said and done I have a great deal of respect for some of the views that you espouse- that is when you do not come across as patronising and all conquering and all knowing. All in all you are not a bad egg save for all that tree hugging and stuff. I am aware that you may not set much store in what I may have to say about you (or indeed think) but I am going to say it anywhere. Having said that, I do not care one jot whether you think I am decent or not in as much I as do not care one jot that you think I am Gwembeni - trust me you are wrong on this. You are also wrong when you state that I am not Ndebele - I am from head to toe. This will be my last response to you until such a time there are substantial and weighty matters to deal with and you are back from your tree hugging forays.

A mind is only useful if it is opend

To the extent that I introduce personal considerations into these important discussions and so create a distraction it is who I should apologize and this I do, hoping that those who know I belong to them will overlook my failings.

Akulasilima esindlebe'nde kwaso.

I am afraid I do enjoy disputation and I have enjoyed arguing with you too Jazelindizayo.

Repeatedly it has seemed clear to me that you are the notorious Gwembeni but then I have to ask myself: what if I am wrong.

After all even though I claim irritatingly to be an expert on everything, it is quite possible that you might be expected to know who you are.

Only the Pope says he is infallible and I am not sure that he is infallible about his infallibility.

So if you are not Gwembeni, and you say you are not, may you be blessed until the next time we argue.

For my part I will not address you any longer as Gwembeni.

Please feel free to call me "Spitfire" "Spit", "Fire", "Smelly wet chicken" or any other name that you might enjoy using.

I have quite a thick skin.

Now I would like to ask you to turn your attention now to the issues raised repeatedly by Nobutshuzwayo.

And in regard to the issues which are so clearly apparent to virtually every member of Inkundla but yourself Jaz I ask you, think it possible it is you and not we who may be mistaken.

I and the rest in this forum have realised that you are not a man of truth, that iJazi lakho ngelokuwumana kuphela.

It has been clear to everyone that you are either a Shona or a sell-out Ndebele who is here to defend Shona supremacy at whatever cost.

Can I also point out this to you that I will not be disapointed if a Shona arse hole licker, a sell-out of your character who is even prepared to sell his mother or grandmother for a few Shona dollars and Shona comforts, all in defence of Shona supremacy, stops replying to my posts.

It is indeed foolhardy for us to believe that we can engage meaningfully in our struggle against Shona supremacy with a chameleon(uNwabu) which is prepared to change its colours every now and then in its defence of its Shona masters.

It is again foolhardy for us to believe that we can engage meaningfully with a chameleon that is after all prepared to sell its mother to gain what it views or perceives as green leafy Shona comforts.

How can we hope that such a sell-out will engage in any meaningful endevours to save our small nation if such a sell-out is prepared to sell his own mother for what he perceives as Shona comforts?

If you thought I would loose my sleep over you not responding to my posts, I urge you mthengisi to think again.

You are indeed the biggest and the greatest sell-out joker I have ever come across.

Mayihlome.