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#12450 - 10/10/03 09:28 AM
The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Lobengula
Nkosi
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
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The best economic policy for the country.
What economic policy do you think will pull the country out of this man-made crisis?
What is the best system to follow?
Should we follow the free market economy?
Should we follow socialism?
Should we follow a mixed economy (both free market and socialism)
What about communism does it have a chance to rescue the country?
Gents, once this issue is debated thoroughly, we will kindly request uMhlonitshwa (the honourable) Sibalukhulu to co-ordinate a project where we can request the best economic experts in the world to write a chapter on what they think the country should do to pull itself out of this Mugabe induced mess. Such work could be compiled into an economic book which can be used to give policy direction in terms of economic recovery. We will need the contribution of economic experts from the World Bank, IMF, Bank for International Settlements, Federal Reserve Bank , Cambridge University, Oxford, MIT, Harvard , Tsholotsho, you name it, excluding Zwakapressa because these are the people who have collapsed the country.
Nanso ke indaba bafowethu yasuka yahlala!!!!!
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#12451 - 10/10/03 04:46 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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In response to your post Lobengula, we should choose an economic policy that rewards society' members for achievement. Such a policy should be home - grown without involvement of World Bank, Cambridge or Oxford as you say. The only Cambridge or Oxford element we should allow is if the "expert in question" is an Mthwakazi.
An economic policy should offer safety nets for the poor and it should offer the poor and uneducated opportunities to supply their labour and be well - remunerated. An economic policy of Matland should be crafted so as to take advantage of what Matlanders like doing and resource endowments of Matland in order to turn these into competetive advantages.
Maybe we should be talking about an economic system and if we agree on that, I could suggest that the economic system should offer everyone opportunities. Such a system could range from the simple units to complex ones that match sophisticated research or production systems in "developed" societies.
I suppose that in choosing such a system, we would be guided by what we want to achieve. Firstly we could be interested in equity. Our second priority could be resource utilisation - and pricing policies would dictate where resources are mostly used. We could be interested in growth, full employment, less or no inflation, innovativeness - but also in environmental protection.
Socialism, Capitalism, mixed systems etc, all are confronted by such problems as pollution, unemployment etc. Our system should show that we have seen the pros and cons of this of that policy. If we choose a system that attracts foreign investment, we should be mindful of the long - term effects on innovativeness and the resulting crowding - out effect on locals. This is why I will advocate for a policy that is initially inward looking and seeks to stabilise income differentials.
Sorry I have to dash elsewhere - i will get back on this one.
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#12452 - 10/10/03 07:15 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Saduva
Ngqwele
Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 145
Loc: Khonale
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Australia will reap US$450m during the 3-4 week rugby world cup.
Whatever economic system you design, it must be able to attract such revunue/investment. Can you do it??
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#12453 - 10/10/03 10:13 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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NYASOMBI
Mafikizolo
Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 46
Loc: MONTREAL
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Lobhengula,
l would like to congratulate you on introducing a new topic. While l understand yo wish for Zimbo to succeed, l feel starting from choosing a new economic system is going the wrong way. The problem in Zimbo is political not economic. l don't mean to pre-empt your topic but l don't it will help in anyway. Adopting a new economic system would not guarantee success in Zimbo as long as the Shonas are in power. There are many countries that have adopted the free market system, mixed economic system that are worse than Zimbo.
l also have a question for you King, what economic system is Zimbo currently using ?
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#12454 - 10/11/03 02:53 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Bhekuzulu Khumalo
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Zimbabwe is using the system of destroying. The economic policy being advocated is known as plunder, it is unsustainable. Shona's are still in the 15th century.
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#12455 - 10/12/03 03:15 AM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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DONSENDE
Mafikizolo
Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 35
Loc: TORONTO
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mahlabezulu angazilutho ngeze-economics and zimbo economy so to speak. but to ask KING[Lobengula], lapha sidinga an economic strategy to resasitate/resurrect the Zim economy in general or to initiate a system for Matabeleland? coz in case of Mthwakazi all we need is water and we are done with amashona. look we have managed to till our dry region and work as semi-slaves both in Zim & SA hence if we harness a reliable water system for our rural folks then we can now talk another language with amashona. agrarian industry might work for us. in Lupane for example the naturalgas reserves can be utilised by us if we have secured our food supply. if we call an outsider to tap it forus claming we don't have enough capital to start we'll be turned to splendid slaves coz the outsider will know we are working for food and starve us to continue working subserviently. well this might seem a long and winding way to start an economy but thus where the superpowers came from. well according to my view point economic development cannot be prescribed to us coz of spatial variations from one region to the other, yes we need guidlines from those ahead of us. the MZWT was thwarted by shonas coz they forsaw a liberated Matland. when elections come bakhampena ngomumbu what an insult! try to think ukuthi kungelandlala angithi ngabe bakhampena ngokwakha izibhedlela lezikolo hatshi amabhawa lemimumbu yabo. coz hope to a hungry man is bread. if we want an indeginous economy i think we need to secure a good and dependable food supply then we can start industrialising our region at our own pace determining market values not starvation propelled ideas. angazi engxenxe ngiyibambele emuva ngihlomuleleni bafowethu.
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#12457 - 10/13/03 02:58 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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Dose - let me remind you that you are an economist as well. When you go shopping, you most probably select this good instead of that one because of the enjoyment or satisfaction - called UTILITY in economics - you derive in using it. Probably you choose that good due to your income called - budget constraint. Sometimes you could spend more than you earn - by borrowing from friends or you may not like borrowing from other people, but buy "an affordable market basket of goods" - ie not running the risk of a "deficit budget". Countries also borrow money internally or externally just like individuals.
By logging into Inkundla - you forego doing other activities - those actities you forego are sacrificed in preference of Inkundla and this is called the Opportunity cost. Economists should not scare anyone away since all people are economists in their own right. Everyone should be comfortable to tackle this topic without feeling inadeqaute.
Nyasombi - I differ with you that politics and economics are separate - they are not. consider for instance the politics of colonialism. Its purpose was also to open new sources of supply for raw materials and markets. In the later part, the colonies were used as dumping grounds for goods produced by infant industries from "mother countries" and as world wars indicate, colonies provided soldiers to "mother countries". Even today, "colonies" vote at international fora for their "mother countries political agendas". In Zim we have both the political and economic problem because the policies of the earlier affect the later.
Consider again the politics of the current administartion in the USA in as far as the middle east is concerned. The USA industry needs oil. US cars have some of the biggest engines in the world. OIL is needed for heating homes, driving industry and the USA had to kick Saddam out on a pretext that he had WMD. BUt what has happened in Iraq to date? American firms have been allocated huge contracts to rebuild Iraq. The guy running the oil commission in Iraq is an Iraq who has trained, lived and worked in the USA - he was appointed by Americans. Why? The truth is that they need someone who will guarantee them some oil. Still in Iraq, American firms like McDonalds have set up shop. I hope that you can now appreciate the link between economics and politics.
Mr Chairman I think we are all aware that the Northerners are not prepared to live with us - except under their terms. Just an illustration that will shock some of you. Last week Sazini Ndlovu a former Zipra supremo died in Byo. People expected him to be declared a national hero - but no declaration was made until his relatives decided to burry him. This happened when the likes of Nkomo, Dabengwa, Skhanyiso - who sit in the Politburo seemed helpless in informing the grieving relatives on what gvt was going to do. Only when Ndlovu had been laid to rest did John Nkomo apologise on TV on behalf of his masters that the delay had not been deliberate. They can not exhume him but are going to "honour his grave and give his relatives support gvt normally accords fallen heroes". Do you believe this? This has never happened to anyone before but this time it did. I agree with you Chairman that these guys just dont care about us.
We should not forget that political policies in use affect the performance of the economy at large. Similarly laws or institutions affect economic performance.
You are most likely wearing American or European or Asian clothes, driving a car made by either of these, using a computer made by either of these, eating a dish from either of these, sitting on a chair made by either of these, using dishes, stoves, TVs, DVDs, sportwear, machines, books, pens, buildings, etc - all made by either of these societies. What is our role on earth? Are we sure that we are not creative? Why do we have expensive tastes when we can not force ourselves to create economic systems that are enviable?
The challenge is for us all to think deeply and creatively. This is a great opportunity Lobengula has given us. In our attempts at conquering this evil in Zim, we should win first the economic warfare and lastly the political. How do we do it? I do not have the answers but I will suggest some useful approaches.
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#12458 - 10/13/03 06:17 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Ndukuzibomvu
Ngqwele
Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
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Mthwakazi:
I think, in focussing on the "economy" (or lack thereof), uMnumzane u-Lobengula has effectively reduced the "zimbabwean" problem to an economic one. Someone has gone further to clarify the fact that, in fact, politics and economy are two sides of the same coin. So, I suppose, what we have here is the consensus that the problem with "zimbabwe" has two faces, namely: political and economical. It is important to stress that there is a strong interplay between these two regimes. Sometimes, what appears to be a political problem is, in fact, a disguised economical problem, and vice versa. The interdependence (or is it symbiosis?) is staggering.
In any case, let me quickly get to my point. I must apologise because I think the best way to put my point across is by asking the reader questions. Some are rhetorical in outlook, yet some are questions that baffle me as well. Let us start off by naming our creature of interest the "z-problem". This creature has many levels of complexity, and is, indeed, multi-dimensional. In view of this, I believe any approach aimed at diffusing the problem should try to target the source/epicentre of the problem, so to speak. What is the epicentre of the problem? In other words, what is at the core of the z-problem? In my mind, I know politics is somewhere there, and so is economics. But, is this it? Is there something else that we are missing? I'm not trying to be a drag, all I'm getting at is that before we even begin to tackle whatever problem is at hand, we should very clearly and explicitly define/understand the problem. It might also help to keep in mind that most problems in life don't have a unique solution. The solution we eventually adopt for our particular problem should, clearly, be one that is amenable with our own aspirations as a people. In any case, I digress.
To summarise, here is what I think we should ponder on for a bit.
1. What is the problem?
2. What is the scale/scope of the problem?
3. what is the epicentre of the problem?
4. what are possible solutions?
5. what is the best/optimal solution? Why?
I believe only after seriously reflecting on these questions can we start to map out strategies for the way forward. We don't want a bandage solution
to the problem. Neither do we want a short term solution, I think.
Ngiyema.
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#12459 - 10/13/03 06:30 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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In our discussion on coming up with "an ideal economic policy" I want to urge those of us who are fortunate to be residing in industrialised societies to take advantage of technology available in those countries. We should not be intimidated by technology.
For us to be competitive, we may need to adopt technologies in use and refine these to our advantage similar to what the Japanese did. Before we move to technology refinement, we should appreciate technology. Most machinery in use in Zim dates back to 1945 - its obsolete. There are plenty of opportunities in manufacturing, packaging, engineering (civil, mechanical, electrical).
Quite often the equipment in use breaks down easily and productive time is lost. The printing industry is one sector that is lucrative. The haulage and passenger transport sector are equally rewarding. If you stumble on high way tractors equipped with cummins engines, just buy them and start your own haulage business.
Franchising is one sure way of going into business. Most master franchises in southern africa are bought by South Africans who then sell them to anyone. These guys go on to make billions before they themselves put the franchise into operation. Look around yourselves and see whether there are any master franchises for sell. Once you buy that, you can sell the franchise to anyone in your region.
Second hand machinery is available in abundance in those countries - arrange visits and see if you can get started with something. There are people here who can operate most of those machines.
One other sector that should be lucrative is hifi production. Add to that the production of auto amplifier systems. All you need to do is to buy or get circuit diagrams from many producers and then you can produce and export these in many countries in Africa. Car speakers sell for Z$500000 - if they are average. Those in electronics should take up this opportunity. Find out from Taiwan whether you can import parts from there and assemble this thing here.
Do not rush and go back home with a car. Get the production technology first. Soap, Tissue paper,diapers, soft drinks, candles, solar systems - and many more require technology. It is there. Always insist on mini plants. Now I want to encourage all of us to get something rolling in here. Through this approach, I am sure we will knock them out.
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#12460 - 10/13/03 07:52 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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NYASOMBI
Mafikizolo
Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 46
Loc: MONTREAL
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Ntombi,
Well Mr/Miss Nombankala l didn't say politics and economics are different. What l said is "...l feel starting from choosing a new economic system is going the wrong way. The problem in Zimbo is political not economic...". The story that you give of Sazini Ndlovu a former Zipra supremo further illustrates my point that the problem in Matabeleland is political not economic. Assuming you are correct that "our challenge...is first to win the economic warfare and lasts political". What should happen to Zanu (PF), Mugabe and all his thugs that are guilty of genocide, tribalism, corruption,...? Should we then solve the economic woes and forget about Mugabe? Once you solve the economic problems how do hope you solve the shona dominance? Personally l feel there is no way you can solve the economic problems without regime change.
Again you seem to suggest that everyone is an economist. l did economics up to form 4 level but l wouldn't call myself an economist. Ntombi you have to give respect to those who spend years in universities and colleges specializing in economics. Those are the people who are economists. Your suggestion that an ordinary CONSUMER is an economist is off the mark. Please don't try to be-little the real economists. There is more to economics than just day to day consumer activities.
You also seem to articulate very well the current events on the Iraq war and you forget that America was justified to remove Saddam Hussein a dictactor responsible for genocide, torture, intimidation, corruption, etc. just like Mugabe. Rather than talk of domination by America, Europe and Asia l feel we better concentrate our efforts on the shona political and economic domination. For example l would like to ask how many Ndebeles were allocated farm land? Note this is first a political decision and then economic.
REGIME CHANGE FIRST THEN ECONOMICS LATER.
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#12461 - 10/14/03 04:05 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Lobengula
Nkosi
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1077
Loc: Tsholotsho
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Ntombankala
Just a few points which might interest you in as far as your assertion (relating to a home grown economic policy) that:
"Such a policy should be home - grown without involvement of World Bank, Cambridge or Oxford"
It might be of interest to you to note that a one Mwalimu Julius Nyerere of Tanzania brought his country to abject poverty through his "home grown Ujamaa brand of economic policy" which failed miserably reducing Tanzanians to dismal levels.
One Robert Mugabe did exactly that through his anarchic and hapless "land is the economy, the economy is land" and the results are a spectacular case of the biggest economic implosion in morden societies which has been described in economic literature as Mugabenomics
characterised by hyperinflation, stagflation, mamparadom and value degradation as well as brain drain.He specifically alienated himself to these world bodies and institutions and the result has been mass starvation.
This is just a view Ntombi which I wanted to bring to your attention.
Ndukuzibomvu
I have a problem with the concept of " politics now, economics later". In South Africa where I did most of my tertiary education, we had youth who had a very popular slogan which said "liberation first, education later". Needless to say when liberation was attained , these youth became the most marginalised and the most vulnerable members of society, their counter parties who embraced both education and liberation are today the captains of industry most of them I qualified as a chartered accountant alongside them in the late 1990s.
Believe it or not they are playing critical levels in shaping the economic future of their country which is slowly becoming the envy of Africa with world class economic policies, a strong currency (1Rand= US$6.80),a world class democratic constitution etc etc .
Ngiyabonga bafowethu qhubekani lixhonxana layo ingxubakaxaka yendaba le liyihluze.
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#12462 - 10/14/03 04:35 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Sheik Mthembo
Ndunankulu
Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 629
Loc: The People's Republic of Mthwa...
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Bakwethu, like Donse, I will have to make a quick declaration that I am not well equipped with weapons of mass economic studies. I am an ordinary man with ordinary ideas on economic issues. Therefore my opinions are those of a lay man in economic issues. Ngimfisthane lapha but all the same I have some ordinary opinions
However, umfowethu uNtomba has said it well that we are all economists, we practice economics on a daily basis, we think economically on a daily basis when we venture into our activities of daily living. Indeed we can not run away from that simple fact as espoused and well explained by Ntomba. That is true indeed.
My other fellow tribesmen have also explained well the fact that politics and economics are inseparable. Therefore it is safe to assert that politics is economics in as much as economics is politics. They are inseparable indeed. One can not talk about bread and butter issues without talking about politics and vice versa.
This then zeros us to the 'epicenter' of our problems. They are political as well as economical. Therefore our needs assessment agenda should be a twin track approach to these problems.
We should focus on solving the political problem while at the same time fighting for economic independence through changing our people's attitudes to wealth creation.
I would then dwell on the economic front for today. Our attitude towards wealth creation is rather found wanting. The get a job philosophy as a way of wealth creation is rather a misguided philosophy that will not lead us anywhere. It will never liberate us. We can talk of political liberation but it will never signify anything without the creation of wealth or a mentality of creating wealth.
I would like to argue that economic liberation is the bedrock to all forms of liberation. Political liberation on its own is meaningless and will always be the bedrock of the meaninglessness of political independence. Liberated nations the world over who have not produced a formula for economic independence through encouraging wealth creation have found themselves enmeshed in the meaninglessness of the political independence. Africa is one such a continent and Zimbabwe is an example.
I therefore believe that the get a job philosophy should only be a passport to a wealth creation philosophy. Wealth creation philosophy in a very pragmatic way should be a passport to all freedoms and aspirations that we hold dear to our lives as Mthwakazians. Kumele singene kumabhizimusi and create wealth for our region.
We should change the culture yokucanga ukuthi ukuthola umsebenzi is the be all and end all of everything.
We should start cultivating a business culture in ourselves.
Therefore at a micro regional level, the only economic plan we can embark on, as Mthwakazians is wealth creation through venturing into busineses. This will make it easy for us to harden our political resolve and help us sort out our problems.
When I say : HLASELA, people always think of war, but to me it is more than that. Hlasela is used in a multi-dimensional way here. It fits well in all our aspects of life be it educational, political, economiclal and cultural.
Kumele si: Hlasele
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#12463 - 10/14/03 05:51 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Ndukuzibomvu
Ngqwele
Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 176
Loc: KwaGuqangamadolo
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Mnumzane Lobengula:
I absolutely agree with you that there's something wrong with the logic "politics now, economics later". Clearly,this"logic" assumes that the two are mutually exclusive regimes, which we know (I think) is a fallacy. As you point out, this logic was successfully implemented during the South Afrikan conflict. The results are there for all to see. One of the things one notices about South Afrika is that the level of illiteracy of the majority is pretty high, despite the existence of numerous universities/technikons. There are many reasons for this state of affairs. Of course, it is well-known that the old SA had a state-sanctioned two-tier "education" system. As a result, a lot of abantu abansundu felt highly skeptical and suspicious (and rightly so) of the whole idea of "education". Indeed, even political organisations such as the ANC took advantage of this mindset, and actively campaigned using the "logic" you alluded to above. A lot of young people growing up in the old SA saw the institution of school/university as an extension of the state machinery (and, indeed, this was the case in many instances). I think it will take generations to change this mindset. Sadly, even the incoming ANC-led gvt never put education revitalisation as a top priority. With respect to the latter, it might be enlightening to read the original RDP (Reconstruction and Development Programme) white paper. In SA, there's what is generally termed the "lost generation", i.e. the youth who got thoroughly indocrinated with the ideology of political struggle, as distinguished (falsely) from from the general struggle for existence (which includes economics, education, ubuntu, etc).
So, yes, Mnumzane Lobengula, I agree with you in many ways. A visit to Khayelitsha, Zola, Mdansane, Dube, Madadeni, Moroka, Katlehong, Hillbrow, etc will instantly illustrate why I agree with you. My feeling, at this point, is that we should never make the mistake that South Afrikan organisations made. I also believe that one can not build a sustainable and robust economy based on an illiterate labour force. I feel we should prioritise education right from the onset. I am of the view that proper and thorough education (not mere schooling) is (or should be) the bedrock (to borrow someone's terminology) of any robust, dynamic, and solid economy. I believe this is one of the places where we should commence our journey towards the eventual upliftment and liberation of our people, our nation, and indeed, our region. What are we, individually and collectively as a society, doing to make sure that our youth (who are the future) are equipped with education? Should we be sending our youths to factories and sweatshops, or should we be sending them to universities and technical schools? What is our vision of the future? Remember, sweatshops and factories can provide you a job and quick cash, but not a future, I think. We, as a nation, should set our priorities straight.
Ngiyabonga.
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#12464 - 10/14/03 06:14 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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Nyasombi apologies if I misunderstood you on the fact that economics and politics are inseparable. You are quite right that "there is more involved in economics than just consumer economics". That is true but do not forget that our role as scholars is to simplify the complex. We should discuss economics and any subject labogogo labo khulu. I have been primarily doing that to the best of my abilities at university.
I still maintain that all normal human beings are economists and this has nothing to do with belittling university life. yes the scope of economics will go beyond that of an ordinary consumer for instance if we are interested in international trade, econometrics, policy analysis and so on. I suppose that I emphasised on the fact the "we are all economists" simply because someone had prefixed their contribution by saying, "I am not an economist". This has an attendant effect of making "non - economists" feel inadequate and we do not want that - do we. Having said that, we should be mindful of psuedo - economists as well. Taking a degree is not sufficient unless someone demonstrates the knowledge gained - this way one is either respected or not.
Something that you may find interesting Nyasombi too is that Adam Smith who is revered as having produced "the bible of economics" was indeed a philosopher. In those days, people studied history and philosophy. Jurisprudence was studied in philosophy and that naturally led to studies in a number of legal systems. Such systems incorporated governmental studies and led directly to studies in Political Economy. Adam Smith wrote economics by "accident". What does this imply? This shows in a way that great economists need not have studied economics after all. Historians, geographers, psychologists, engineers, mathematicians, accountants - the list is endless are formidable contributors - and "economists" do not have a monopoly of ideas on how society's problems of SUPPLY AND DEMAND should be solved.
On what should happen to Mugabe and ZANUPF if we solve the economic problem first - well I think that if you check the archives on my previous contributions you may get the answers. We have cautioned before and I have been cautioned as well from "setting the trap while they observe" - literally translated. My position in as far as those guys are concerned is clear - they are criminals. My position as far as the so - called Zimbabwe is concerned is clear too. I still insist that we should not desire to rule the shona or call ourselves Zimbos. Once we agree on that, I do not see why we should have a problem of empowering ourselves economically. Remember, you don't need to set up shop here - in Zimbo - if the environment is hostile. Set up one elsewhere and empower your people from there.
To say "Regime change first and ..." is some kind of dogma that is in vogue. But I want to urge you to put action into words. It is more practical and quicker to do it the other way round. This is STRATEGY and quite a lot on strategy has been written about. If you spotted a rat in your house, would you chase it around or set a trap? We need to strategies. What we have in Zim is deeper than a political problem. The case of Sazini Ndlovu shows an ethnic problem that is far deeper than politics.
Lobengula - as king you should not have difficulties understanding what I am saying by "home - grown". Look back at "our economic system" that was in place before the colapse of our kingdom. Would you not say that it was "home - grown? The case of Nyerere is documented in texts but Nyerere was a socialist and his approach was based on trying to bridge the distance between villagers by bringing them closser to "service centres" - a good idea but it was bound to fail if people are forced. I suppose that the sparsely distributed populations even in Matland make planning difficult in infrastructure provision. The question is, do you force people who live 20 kms from a school to a nearer position when they are comfortable there?
Nyerere's failures were compounded by a lack of wide consultation and the "cold - war" between the Warsaw pact and NATO. That said, a home - grown solution should disown the view that the World BANK knows it all. I have met morons who work for that institution. remember that there is even a quota system for countries in all UN - related organisations. The national governments recommend individuals for appointment and as you know, the World Bank will always work with the local Central Bank of the host country to implement its policies. What does this mean. it means that "politically connected individuals" lend those jobs and their contribution to their own economy is often negative.
The failure of Structural Adjustment programmes in Africa, Asia and latin America lends credence to the dead wood in those institutions. Infact the whole UN - systems is full of crap. If you doubt, where were they when Mugabe massacred thousands of my people? Where were they when life was lost in Rwanda, Burundi, Angola, South Africa, where are they when AIDS is killing people at will etc?
If you recall king Lobengula, - I am sure you are one - one of the recommendations under ESAP for Zim was "reduce the civil service". My goodness, how can that policy guarantee a furniture maker, car maker, etc with income if gvt retrenches workers? Who would buy from them? What would happen to the children of retrenched workers - where will they find support? By retrenching workers, their disposable income is terminated, meaning reduced consumption, reduced savings, reduced investment and the multiplier effect of that is devastating. If savings are reduced, the money creation process of banks is curtailed, hence banks can not lend at lower rates, industry expansion is reduced, unemployment rises, gvt will be unable to offer services as revenues will diminish, gvt will hike taxes for the few formally employed - what you have is a spiral of turbulent interrelated events casued by a poor analysis.
The World Bank's policies of retrenchment were based on the wrong assumption that "too many people were employed in the civil service". They believed that reducing this number "will free idle resources to other sectors in the long - run" that would have been created due to liberalisation. A failure to notice that this labour force is not easily transferable between sectors without major costs was startling. for instance assume gvt had retrenched customs officers and at the sane time someone invested in a jewellery plant - would the jobless customs officers be useful in this plant? They can only be useful if they are willing to be trained, are clever to adjust and there is money to train them and most importantly, the investor would have to be willing to "wait for these trainees" and forego earnings. Now there you have it from the World Bank.
It is clear that the World Bank policies are crafted to give advantage to economies of the Northern hemisphere. Their desire to see a reduction of "gvt debt" was primarily targeted at ensuring that borrowers from the North get their money back. I can go on and on. Japan needed no World Bank, Germany did not - forget the Marshall plans since Germany was already industrialised.
What we need is a home - grown solution and that policy should not belittle technology. ngiyabonga.
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#12466 - 10/15/03 03:04 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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Lingixolele ngokuthumeza iposi elilezixhenxe.
Chairman - I admire your presentation. Indeed our attitude on wealth creation "of late" has been found wanting. Kasisukumeli phezulu. Notice that I say "of late" since I can not correctly give an account of an economic system used by our forefathers but I know that their economic system was based on a stronger emphasis on the military.
Military might guaranteed control over factors of production - a strategy that was later used against us by colonialists and that strategy is what the USA and western governments are using today. We can not doubt that in our system there were miners, smiths, furnace engineers etc. How this was ordered or remunerated, I can not tell anyone.
Today we are realising the "lost generation of knowledge" - if I may borrow from Nduku. Since our progression in development was "disturbed" by colonialists, we lost knowledge and now we can hardly go back. Probably this is why The Chairman is saying we should "change the culture of thinking and cultivate business culture". This is not easy but this is just the way to go.
Our people are still good at rearing domestic animals. Most beef in Zim is from Mat South followed by North. The quality of forage - grass etc in drought prone Mat South is the best for livestock in the country. The question is, how do we turn this to a system that empowers people in Mat South? What levels of industrialisation could spring out of "what people are doing" and what would be the uniqueness of these forms of industry? I suppose that the "system" would determine levels of sophistication.
As Nduku did indicate, education will play a pivotal role in our quest for defining a new economic order. As to "what type of education" - I may not add - but it should be inclusive in terms of content. Ethics and social responsibility should form the foundation of the compulsory courses in our education system at elementary level and cultural diversity.
I have no right to monopolise this session. I have great respects for all who realise that Matlanders are not supposed to worship the shona at all. I respect all who believe the Matlanders have a right to Matland and that it is indeed theirs and are in no way indebted to the shona for anything.
I am happy that you have relentlessly refused to lie down. You have prodded issues left, right and centre. You have defied odds and shown a fighting spirit by interrogating all forms of wrongs. The determination you continue to display here is indeed reflective of your high breed. It is this spirit that will assure Matland's sovereignity.
As The Chairman says "Hlasela" hlasela. If you do not, you will be a target of "hostile take overs". yes the war is multi - faceted as he says. Right now I need a partner with US$10 000 for a venture that will return Z$330 000 000 by 1 month. Thereafter the cashflows will always be Z$330 000 000. If you are ready talk to me and I will give you all the details. Hlasela!!
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#12467 - 10/16/03 02:30 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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ntombankala
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Zimbabwe
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Lobengula - I understand the hassles you went through trying to put your documents together. That is typical of Zimbabwe. People spend time and money queueing for birth certificates and have to travel to Harare. Service provision as you indicated is appalling. People working in those offices will be creating conditions conducive to fermenting corruption. It is well - known that people pay far more than they should be doing for registering companies, that the processes are woefully slow - BUT - that does not make a still - born World Bank reform programme justifiable.
The case of computerisation you highlight will make sense if we use "surface scheming". Computerising comes with costs. Firstly, no Zimbabwean company can produce a computer chip, cable or monitor. So who benefits if gvt buys 1000 computers? Is it not computer manufacturers who are foreign? Assume as you say that one computer would do the work of two people or more - well I do not think so. A Computer needs an operator who must be trained - and following on this, it does not mean that a guy obhala izithupha will easily switch over to using a computerised system. The guy may just fail to even operate the keyboard. What would you then do with this individual who has suddenly become redundant but can produce an ID document manually.
A reform programme should take into account realities on the ground. Still on the computer Lobengula, if say the guy who was employed in the ID section took home $100 000/month was replaced with a computer, how much would this cost? In Zim today, a computer selling for Z$2 000 000 is very cheap - this is before you add the printer, tonner, paper, maintenance costs, depreciation etc. If we use $2 000 000 as the cost of a computer, it implies increasing our "salary bill" by $800 000 annully over a situation where we have this guy. So where have we cut the cost?
Before any reform programmes are implemented, the World Bank is mandated to spy on what will be needed, who swill supply it etc. These programmes of economic reform are designed to create markets for firms of "donor" countries. Often we hear that this country and that one have given us aid to construct roads. Sounds good to the ear BUT bulldozers have to be sourced from the country giving "aid" - thus creating jobs at source.
Our major problem is that we are not producing any capital goods often referred to as Ricardo goods after David Ricardo. We tend to focus on Heckscher - Ohlin goods like tomatoes, bananas, oranges, mining - and even on these, we are not highly competitive due to our low levels of investment in science. Our reliance on primary production has seriously handicapped us since we cannot "innovate" a tomato in a similar way as a motor manufacturer does to a car.
Our economic system should enable us to produce capital goods
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#12468 - 10/21/03 01:39 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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thrower
Sakhamuzi
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 60
Loc: Blessed Land
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Bafowethu,
While going through your Debate,I am a bit lost when comparisons of South Africa and Zimbabwe are made.
Gents remember that the population of Soweto on its own is almost equivalent to that of the whole of Zimbabwe,therefore the probability of meeting an illiterate in any of the surburbs is so high,unlike in Zimbabwe where the same number of people are spread out.Note there is more than 55 ooo ooo people in South Africa compared to about 13000 000 in Zimbabwe.The majority of Zimbabweans who attained good quality education did so before 1990,while in South Africa by 1991 most schools were biggining to adopt a morden education system thus computerising every classroom in urban areas of which by now many including rural schools have since adopted the sysytem.I do not remember any educated literate Zimbabwean Minister who ever had a foresight to introduce the sysytem to primary schools,it was only left to Private colleges.Most Zimbabweans are Literate yes,but Bafowethu the majority is computer illiterate.
No wonder my brother Lobengula had such a struggle failing to register his mother's company,the government will not buy computers ,simple because the majority of Zimbabwean civil servants have no clue at all what a computer is,not to mention how to switch it on.Imagine how much it will cost the government introducing the scheme'computers don't bite'in Zimbabwe.
Maybe this is the reason why the economy is not recovering,cause too much time is wasted on doing nothing in Zimbabwe.Look at Banking ques,if people had computers tele-banking will be in use everyday thus reducing wasted time.
Let us not be sunk in the assumption that Zimbabweans are the majority literate in Southern Africa,they were years back! but now others are calling the shots.
[ 21.10.2003, 18:05: Message edited by: thrower ]
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#12470 - 10/23/03 12:58 AM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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noe
Mafikizolo
Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 9
Loc: harare
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hello...i'm new to this but..
the guy who couldn't get ahead becos of bureaucracy...yes, zim does have that problem.but...other people have done it, all you need is sheer perseverance, not to mention a thick skin to tolerate appearing a bit dull for not knowing that you have to join 6 queues to get one thing done. i know its annoying but think of it this way: iswwina will not hesitate to do something okuzaletha imali.to be on the same level with them we have to play by their rules.they are tenacious...so we should be too.maybe all this is a bit simplistic...judging by all your postings...the king, ntomabankala and the rest i cant help feeling a bit...out of place among such great minds.
its just that we've always heard that amashona athanda imali.they work and they do whatever it takes to make a buck.thina we are so soft i think and we give up easily.we dont want to fight.
if we joined forces we'd get matland to be the powerhouse that it should be.there are plenty of big dara's in the capital who are children of mthwakazi yet they do not support matland...why?people like mthuli ncube, nhlanhla masuku, and the execs of first bank are actually sons of matland.yet akukhanyi.why?
the governor of mat north comes from nkayi yet the road going there is so bad.why?
amashona awalanhloni zokuthuthukisa abakibo.why thina sisesaba?
odabengwa...he is running the MZWT but what is being said about it? nothing. yet we all know that the biggest problem matland has is the water shortage.what happened to our people that we have become so soft and quiet and willing to accept the crumbs thrown by those in power? are we not the one who fought and one the war?manje sokwathini?did all the brave ones die???
umsebenzi yikukhuluma yet nobody ever does anything worthwhile.why?
yes i know kunzima, but we have people in high places too...bona benzani????uncedo labo ngolwani?
before any talk about how disadvantaged we are we need to realise our weaknesses, the inherent ones, such as ukungafuni ukuncedana.
ishona lingaphumelela, the whole family has made it.but indebele...ufuna ukube ecelwa kuphela.why?
that is what is killing our nation(mthwakazi-land).those who have made it...help others make it too, and then we will all have made it.the smallest part of the nation is the individual, help the one, aand you help them all.
the quality of discussion in this forum is impressive. how about coming together and actually writing something for publication?or if not that, at least something that will be seen by those who can effect change?those in power and who have the interests of matland at heart? i know that you think it will not help...but this is our problem...ukwesabela khatshana.
it might not help...but could it possibly do any harm?
yes, i'm young and maybe i sound stupid.but this is what i see...we are in a tight place and if we dont help each other we will never get anywhere as a nation.
masibambaneni, sithuthuke.
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#12471 - 10/24/03 11:08 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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NYASOMBI
Mafikizolo
Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 46
Loc: MONTREAL
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Thrower
I'm surprised at the way you display your ignorance. I don't mean to be rude but you obviously don't understand how a survey on literacy is conducted - it has nothing to do with size of population. If l may follow your limited analysis l would interpret your analysis the oppositely that is to say since South Africa has a larger population than Zimbabwe then it should have a higher number of educated people. How about that? Surveys or Statistics are conducted by sampling a particular group(age group, certain level of education, etc). The particular age group is then tested say on the ability to read, write, understand, mathematics, etc.It absolutely has nothing to do with population. If you want to know the exact statistics on illiteracy in southern africa you can check the UNESCO site. Forget the statistics there is no doubt that Zimbabweans are among the best in Africa in terms of education.
You also state that, " ...while in South Africa by 1991 most schools were beginning to adopt a modern education system thus computerising every classroom in urban areas of which by now many including rural schools have since adopted the system..."
What do you mean by computerizing classroom? Do you mean automation in every classroom? If so, what is there to computerize in a classroom? From this statement l can deduce that you went school after 1990 and you didn't take any lessons in a computer lab.
You also say that civil servants in Zimbabwe are computer illiterate. That's not true. Go to passport office you will find civil servants using computers. l don't know who does switching-on for them. As a matter of fact the Zimbabwean civil servants are among the highly educated and for you to say they don't know how to boot-up PCs is an insult. The Zimbabwean banks are perhaps the most up date as far as computerisation is concerned but one has to know that are costs related to technology. Behind any useful computer technology e.g. internet banking, Point of Sale, ATM, etc there is a highly paid computer specialists. As a matter of fact internet banking is offered by most Zim banks.
Finally l just wanna say to you despite the political problems we are facing Zimbabwe is still calling the shots in Africa. Open your eyes
Mr Thrower!!
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#12472 - 10/26/03 06:13 PM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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mahlaba ayithwale
Mafikizolo
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 14
Loc: mzansi
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well this site never fails to attract me to some real gud stuff , about the economic policy to be followed , i belive zim can do with mixed economy possible first 10-15 years then possible with monitoring and review then go for free market system.
I would like to highlight a few issues that i believe are important to the country ,
Zimbabwes bigest mistakes if analysed will enlighten and lead us on a carefull journey to the future.The policy on subsidy
Zimbabwe borrowed a lot of money from the BRITON WOODS instituions ,the EUROPEAN community as well as SOUTH AFRIKA and most of this money was used to fund about all parastatalz, starting from Railways ,Airzim just to name a few and this were all inefficient ,these became the best root for ministers ,deputy ministers , the whole Board of directors, senior mgt goin down to the lowest employee in the hierachy to syphon money toeither their pvt account or to foreign accounts .If you anaylise this and look at the number of parastetals which recorded huge losses every year, imagine at some time ZUPCO was the major player in the industry but failed to register profits in those years, this will not make sense even to an economic laymen selling vegetables at the makokoba market.We are talking about close to 3/4 of our foreign debt .and people say that zimbabwean problems started in 1999, well my friends which ever way with or without the war vets , land reform, we were heading for the wall, the land issue only hestened the speed.
we were simply living beyond our means and thats it , how can a country sell steel, and not manufacture final commodities .
there fore we have to start industrialising the country, well you might say its difficultand will hurt the odinary people , my question is was south afrika born industralised ,a big NO it was a preplanned project with a huge multiplier effect.
Well just to cut the long story short, whatever policy we take we have to be disciplined to stick to economic policies not change them willy nilly.
we have to live within our means , i mean do not rely on BRITON WOODS , A good exaple is SOUTH AFRIKA they budget is about 97% funded by taxes( VAT ,paye, coporate tax ,different duties, just to name a few)thus a very efficient tax system, might think about VAT instead of sales tax.about 1% domestic borrowing, and about 2%foreign debt which is done not because they need it but just to keep the accouts goin and the goowill .
An essential tool that has to be built along the lines of INDIPENDENCE is the AUDITOR GENERAL OFFICE, this office is to the whole population what KPMG ,DELOTTE N TOUCH ,is to the shareholders of a company. if the office is 98% independent it means it will make sure that all government departments are efficient,that is use their budgets in a way that benefits the people ,ALL parastetals are as efficient as public company hence reduces our cancerus problem called subsdy.
We need to build a treasury department that is very efficient, so as to make sure that the country lives fromits means .
well fellows i thank you for motivating me to contribute to this site and bear with me for all the mistakes and i look forward to reading your contribution
God bless
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#12474 - 10/27/03 05:50 AM
Re: The Best Economic Policy for the Country
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Bhekuzulu Khumalo
Sikhulu
Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 231
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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NYASOMBI , Zimbabwe has never called the economic shots in Africa, that is precisly why you are in Canada not South Africa. Zimbabwe's economy genbrates US$4 billion, South Africa US$130 billion, Botswana US$3 billion. Who are you trying to kid. That US$4 billion is the profit of Royal Bank in Canada. Zimbabwe calls the shots. ZANU pf people lie all day. Fucking ZANU.
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